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Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban  
User currently offlineManuCH From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 3011 posts, RR: 47
Posted (4 years 8 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6931 times:
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This week-end the Swiss people have voted to decide whether Muslim minarets should be banned in this country or not.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8384835.stm

Quote:
The proposal is backed by the Swiss People's Party (SVP), the largest party in parliament, which claims minarets are a sign of Islamisation.

Opponents say a ban would discriminate, and that the campaign has stirred hatred. The government opposes a ban.

First results show that the ban will be accepted by a majority of voters (about 55-60%).

What do you think? Is this entire thing discriminating, or will it set an example for other European countries? What surprises me are the positive reactions coming from other countries. Did Switzerland just break a taboo, or will we be treated as if we were *the* discriminating country?

For the record, I voted blank - I have weighed the pros and cons, and couldn't decide which were more important. On one side, I'm all for religious freedom. On the other side, I'm afraid that a minaret would also attract the Muezzin, singing his call to prayer, which is something I'd rather not hear.


Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
267 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAjd1992 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (4 years 8 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6927 times:

France did it with veils, so it's a little unsurprising. I don't see why people have such a problem about it - there are no churches in the Middle East (or at least in the strictly muslim countries) and they have no problem with it.

Personally, although I'm not Swiss, I back this idea. I'm all for new culture and all that, but there's got to be a limit somewhere on preserving your own countries culture and religion.


User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (4 years 8 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6896 times:



Quoting Ajd1992 (Reply 1):
but there's got to be a limit somewhere on preserving your own countries culture and religion.

I'd go along with that.

I don't understand the need for a minaret anyway as they don't use them anymore to call people to prayer.It's just a symbol.I'm sure not every church has a bell tower.


User currently offlineManuCH From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 3011 posts, RR: 47
Reply 3, posted (4 years 8 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6864 times:
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The final results are out: 58% have voted to ban the minarets.

Source (German)

What strikes me is that almost everyone (90%) of the people I know says they voted against the initiative (ie. they voted against the ban), but yet 58% voted for the ban according to official results (even 68% in the area where I live). This either means people don't have the guts to express their opinion in public, or that I know an unrepresentative statistics sample of people.



Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
User currently offlineAviationMaster From Switzerland, joined Oct 1999, 2479 posts, RR: 34
Reply 4, posted (4 years 8 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6864 times:

The only thing that surprised me was that the vote turned out to be so clear. I was expecting a much closer decision.

Quoting ManuCH (Thread starter):
Is this entire thing discriminating

Nope. IMO it would have been discriminatory if they had banned the practicing of Islam. They've been practicing their religion without any problems for a long time now, why the sudden need of minarets?

Quoting ManuCH (Thread starter):
or will it set an example for other European countries?

Not only Europe, but most likely all across the Western World

Quoting ManuCH (Thread starter):
What surprises me are the positive reactions coming from other countries. Did Switzerland just break a taboo, or will we be treated as if we were *the* discriminating country?

IMO, Swiss voters just showed some balls today. They said what other's wouldn't have dared to mention in other countries out of fear to being labled a "racist" or whatever term opponents come up with these days. Will the country be in the global spotlight due to this issue? Perhaps in the short term, but in the long run, absolutely not. In a six months time, no one will be talking about the result of today's vote.

in the end today's decision just fortifies the message, that if you come to this country, you will have to adapt and not the other way around. Tolerence can only go so far. Don't like it, get out!


User currently offlineAviationMaster From Switzerland, joined Oct 1999, 2479 posts, RR: 34
Reply 5, posted (4 years 8 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6854 times:



Quoting ManuCH (Reply 3):
What strikes me is that almost everyone (90%) of the people I know says they voted against the initiative (ie. they voted against the ban), but yet 58% voted for the ban according to official results (even 68% in the area where I live).



Quoting ManuCH (Reply 3):
This either means people don't have the guts to express their opinion in public

 checkmark 

It's exactly that, many people don't have the guts to voice their REAL opinion out loud.


User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10654 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (4 years 8 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6831 times:

This is about a ban of high visibility symbols of a religion alien to a christian-orientated part of the world. What comes after the erection of minarets, Muezzins at loudspeakers shouting out Allahu Akhbar? This is not about a ban against mosques as such or even against Islam. Its not Anti-Islam, its pro Christian Europe. In this sense I´m ok with the vote. Otherwise I would say lets build a gothic cathedral in Tehran for a change.

User currently offlineAlexEU From Serbia, joined Oct 2007, 1817 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (4 years 8 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6830 times:

I would personally allow few mosques (with minaretes) in cities like Zurich, Geneva or Basel while no for smallew towns and villages.
What is the law for other European countries?


User currently offlineAirTran737 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3702 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (4 years 8 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6816 times:
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Good for the Swiss people. I am glad that they stood up for their rights. Anyone who has ever lived near a minaret knows how annoying it is to hear the call to prayer five times a day. It all comes down to the fact that the minarets are disturbing the peace, not that Islam is a bad religion.


Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5680 posts, RR: 19
Reply 9, posted (4 years 8 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6813 times:



Quoting ManuCH (Thread starter):
Did Switzerland just break a taboo, or will we be treated as if we were *the* discriminating country?

If the ban is indeed adopted, the culturally suicidal multikulti lefties (always ready to bent backward to blank check accomodate whatever ridiculous minority demand pops up yet unwilling to agree that certain things are part of country's and in a broader sense European identity and certain are simply not) will villify Switzerland, no doubt about that.
Anyway, congratulations to Switzerland for standing up for its own identity.

Quoting Ajd1992 (Reply 1):
I don't see why people have such a problem about it - there are no churches in the Middle East (or at least in the strictly muslim countries) and they have no problem with it.

The significant difference is that the Swiss ban in question is on minarets, not mosques as such.
If we ignore the religious aspect which makes the issue so sensitive, I don't see anything wrong about allowing place of worship (there are several hundreds of them in Switzerland alone according to the news) yet preventing the skylines of European cities to be polluted with culturally and architecturally inferior objects.

Quoting Babybus (Reply 2):
It's just a symbol.I'm sure not every church has a bell tower.

And if it does they do not ring all the time anymore since there is no need for it, as people in 21st century tend to have their own watches. Analogically there is no need for muezzin to scream all over the city 5 times a day.


User currently offlineRootsAir From Costa Rica, joined Feb 2005, 4186 posts, RR: 40
Reply 10, posted (4 years 8 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6807 times:



Quoting ManuCH (Thread starter):
First results show that the ban will be accepted by a majority of voters (about 55-60%).

What do you think? Is this entire thing discriminating, or will it set an example for other European countries? What surprises me are the positive reactions coming from other countries. Did Switzerland just break a taboo, or will we be treated as if we were *the* discriminating country?

Today I am ashamed of being Swiss. Minaret construction is already heavily controlled here in switz. This initiative was launched by populaist èpartires who love to play of people's fera. Its a whole fake debat as they think its the way to spo Switzerland from Islamisation. They say that without minarets we will stop swiss parents from marrying their daughters with a man of their choice or will prevent Swiss women from having to wear the burka.

Quoting ManuCH (Thread starter):
On the other side, I'm afraid that a minaret would also attract the Muezzin, singing his call to prayer, which is something I'd rather not hear.

Its already forbidden and happend no where in Switzerland where Minarets exist



A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
User currently offlineRJ100 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2000, 4118 posts, RR: 29
Reply 11, posted (4 years 8 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6747 times:



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 7):
I would personally allow few mosques (with minaretes) in cities like Zurich, Geneva or Basel while no for smallew towns and villages.

There are already mosques in all of these cities. Just without minarets.

Even without today's voting minarets would not have been possible in Switzerland because the local construction laws would not allow them (noise, too high altitude, does not fit in the local picture etc.). In fact nothing changes with this "official ban".



none
User currently offlineFridgmus From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1442 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (4 years 8 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6722 times:
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Quoting AviationMaster (Reply 4):
in the end today's decision just fortifies the message, that if you come to this country, you will have to adapt and not the other way around. Tolerance can only go so far. Don't like it, get out!

Well said AM, well said! Congratulations to the Swiss people for showing some balls!!! I wish more countries, including my own, would do the same!

Manu, with respect, I have to disagree with you, no, it is not discrimination. They are free to practice their religion. If they want their minarets, then they are free to go to back to their home country or to another Muslim country!

Just my  twocents 



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User currently offlineRJAF From Jordan, joined Jan 2007, 314 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 8 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6701 times:

Well done Switzerland. There is a limit to how much tolerant you can be to other religions especially when the other religions do not reciprocate? When will they build a church in Saudi Arabia? Why are the few churches in the UAE not allowed to show a cross on top of the building? Why can't non-muslims enter Mecca?


Chance favors the prepared mind
User currently offlineSquared From Canada, joined May 2005, 387 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 8 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6678 times:

Am I the only one who is bothered by the fact that referenda are held on issues that affect minority rights?

The tyranny of the majority, how sad, and scary, it is.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26853 posts, RR: 58
Reply 15, posted (4 years 8 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6670 times:



Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 12):
They are free to practice their religion. If they want their minarets, then they are free to go to back to their home country or to another Muslim country!

Just my

I totally agree . Places to practıce theır relıgıon YES . Changıng the demography and landscape NO.

Mınarets are fıne ın countrıes where the majorıty of that country are Muslım but ın UK Ireland Swıtzerland etc... Chrıstıanıty rules.

I dont have anythıng agaınst them Im ın Istanbul now and they are nıce here and they fıt but not ın Western Europe.


User currently offlineEmirates773er From Pakistan, joined Jun 2005, 1449 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (4 years 8 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6658 times:



Quoting Squared (Reply 14):

Read this news this morning and felt really good about being a Canadian. Such a law could never pass out here.



The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
User currently offlineHAJFlyer From Switzerland, joined Sep 2005, 1473 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (4 years 8 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 6633 times:



Quoting Emirates773er (Reply 16):
Read this news this morning and felt really good about being a Canadian. Such a law could never pass out here.

Don't be so sure. BTW, it is not a law, but rather a constitutional amendment. If Canada had,

- The same high percentage of foreign born population (app. 30%)
- A similar rapid increase in the Muslim population including a vocal (admittedly small) radical faction
- The same type of direct democracy allowing 100K citizens to get a constitutional amendment on the ballot

the outcome could be quite similar.

Regards
HAJ


User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4402 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 8 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 6609 times:



Quoting RJAF (Reply 13):
When will they build a church in Saudi Arabia? Why are the few churches in the UAE not allowed to show a cross on top of the building? Why can't non-muslims enter Mecca?

Thus Europeans must ban minarets? I thought the we, here in Europe, must show how freedom should look like instead of of lowering ourselves to the same level of freedom in the UAE or Saudi Arabia.

Well I wonder how the Arab world will react. There is a reason why Swiss businesses (the banking industry especially) didn´t want a YES vote.


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3419 posts, RR: 17
Reply 19, posted (4 years 8 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 6602 times:
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As a Muslim this does not bother me, as long as there is somewhere i could pray having a Minaret or not are the same.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 9):
yet preventing the skylines of European cities to be polluted with culturally and architecturally inferior objects.

Well this a matter of taste i could say the same thing about church's. Some of the Minaret and church bell tower are a piece of art.

I download prayer times on my laptop while traveling, have it set with the country i am in, hear the call for prayer in the privacy of my room, very easy.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineManuCH From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 3011 posts, RR: 47
Reply 20, posted (4 years 8 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 6589 times:
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Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 12):
Manu, with respect, I have to disagree with you, no, it is not discrimination.

I never said that it's discrimination. I actually asked for opinions:

Quoting ManuCH (Thread starter):
What do you think? Is this entire thing discriminating, or will it set an example for other European countries?

In my opinion it isn't discriminating, but some people say so. That's what the discussion is about  Smile



Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6573 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (4 years 8 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 6586 times:
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Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 8):
am glad that they stood up for their rights. Anyone who has ever lived near a minaret knows how annoying it is to hear the call to prayer five times a day. I

So is it because of the noise? or because of the structure itself? or because of what it represents?

Cant the noise issue be controlled via some kind of anti-noise law instead? hmm i wonder if that could mean the end of ringing bells from churches too?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7642 posts, RR: 36
Reply 22, posted (4 years 8 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 6558 times:

Quoting Squared (Reply 14):
The tyranny of the majority, how sad, and scary, it is.

How can the majority of a democracy be tyrant ...   Good on for Switzerland for actually voting and raising their voice to defend Swiss culture and way of life. Not like Canada where one culture has to constantly bend over backwards to accomodate another.

Quoting Emirates773er (Reply 16):
Read this news this morning and felt really good about being a Canadian. Such a law could never pass out here.

Unfourtnatly, they'd probably tear down the church next to the Minaret as well.

Personally, it wouldn't bother me one bit that we had Minarets in Canada, or any other religious symbols but what does bother me is the way Canada has evovled in that certain religious/cultural groups that come in and ask to have their rights/freedoms respected now demand that other religous/cultural groups limit their rights/freedoms contained in their own four walls.

[Edited 2009-11-29 12:18:24]


A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1596 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (4 years 8 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 6551 times:

panem et circenses

filler.


User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 59
Reply 24, posted (4 years 8 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 6548 times:



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 21):
Cant the noise issue be controlled via some kind of anti-noise law instead? hmm i wonder if that could mean the end of ringing bells from churches too?

Precisely. Here in the US, there are many mosques with minarets, but no call to prayers (muezzin) are made just as no ringing bells from churches are made. The minaret is just built as part of the architecture of the building and in some cases is no more than a couple meters higher than the building.

I don't believe in any religion anymore, but I am disappointed with this move by Switzerland. I have no problem with banning the call-to-prayer (muezzin) as part of anti-noise ordinances, but why should an architectural component of a building be banned? If height restrictions as part of zoning prevent the construction of a minaret, then that is a different story. But as I said, a minaret can be incorporated as just a very short tower protruding just a few meters above the building and could be done so as to not exceed the height restrictions in the area. The mosque could be built as a 1-story building, with a minaret protruding another story, thus making the entire mosque only 2-stories tall.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 15):
Mınarets are fıne ın countrıes where the majorıty of that country are Muslım but ın UK Ireland Swıtzerland etc... Chrıstıanıty rules.

Christianity rules in Europe??? I thought Europe now has a strict separation of church and state after much of Europe was ruled by the Pope for hundreds of years?



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
25 SOBHI51 : Few months ago even here in the Kingdom there was a law regulating the volume of the muezzin.
26 TheCol : I would favor an anti-noise law over an outright ban. I doubt anyone would want to hear bells or Muezzins at 0600. I tend to agree with you there. Th
27 Asturias : Interesting result, I wonder how this all plays out... panem et circenses? Maybe. Though I am skeptical of labeling culture as a political sideshow. a
28 1stfl94 : A disappointing move. If the Swiss want to combat radical Islam then don't make specific laws against them! That's just incensing the radicals. Then a
29 LTU932 : The problem in general is that people accept the ringing of bells when a church calls to mass (especially since this usually doesn't happen in the ea
30 Derico : Like I said in another thread about an Italian town kicking immigrants out at Christmas time, it seems there is a deep seeded xenophobia in significan
31 MD11Engineer : An atheist´s point of view: Tell that to our Catholic village parish. Due me working shift, I often have problems when transitting within a few days
32 LTU932 : My father was an Italian guest worker recruited by Lufthansa Technik, and he adapted himself to German society. After a few years, he got a residence
33 LTU932 : What an Italian town does is not representative of all Europe. Our concern is that many Muslim immigrants refuse to integrate themselves into our soc
34 Squared : The majority of a democracy can indeed by tyrannical, when it tramples on the rights of minority groups. Alexis de Tocqueville noted the so-called "T
35 BA : Precisely. And to expand this further, what about Hindu temples, Bahai house of worships, and other religious buildings? Many have some form of tower
36 Asturias : Let's appease them instead. Let's pretend culture doesn't matter for us, just for them. Let's all live together as equals until everyone is separate
37 LTU932 : We're not banning mosques, simple as that. They don't really need a minaret (I also suggest that you read post 25).
38 LAXintl : You are right, sadly such a vote in other parts of Europe might turn out in similar manner. What I find quite contradictory is the image Europe tries
39 Post contains images N1120A : This is a completely bigoted law and shows the true tyranny of the majority. Yes In those churches where bells are of importance, they do. So, you are
40 Post contains images BA : Exactly, how does it hinder integration? It doesn't. It's just an architectural component. I never said anything about banning mosques. I know Switze
41 LTU932 : Let me put it this way: In my experience, I felt more like a second class citizen in Costa Rica (even though I've had Costa Rican citizenship all my
42 N1120A : Don't know. How many? We agree. That has nothing to do with integration and everything to do with self-determination.
43 SOBHI51 : I think he meant posting 19
44 Post contains images LTU932 : That was a rhetorical question.   Yes, that's the one I meant. It does have in part something to do with integration because sometimes, conservative
45 Mir : Minarets can be very elegant architectural pieces that, in my opinion, look very nice. If you want to put a height restriction on religious buildings
46 N1120A : You need to back up a bare statement like that. I seriously doubt that a country like Germany, that has massive numbers of both religious and secular
47 N229NW : Sure it is. Just look at a post like this: Shines right through. As many others have said, why does singling out one religion architecturally help pe
48 Asturias : You'd have to be blinded with political correctness to truly believe some cultures are not inferior to others. How does it hinder integration? Furthe
49 N1120A : Not really. Each culture has its pluses and minuses, and each person has their opinion about which one suits them best.
50 Springbok747 : Stupid decision. Having a minaret doesn't automatically mean the Muslims in that mosque will 'scream 5 times a day'. We have several mosques with mina
51 WarRI1 : I agree completely, it was voted on fair and square in a Democratic election, in Democratic Society. Christian Symbols are somewhat restricted in Mus
52 Post contains links LTU932 : I'm not sure if this page is completely accurate, but here's an overview of how Swiss politics in their semi-direct democratic system works. http://en
53 Yellowstone : Let's drag out the standard example. If a majority of voters in Kansas had voted, in 1954, to have segregated schools, would that make that decision
54 Asturias : As I said, you'd have to be completely blinded by political correctness to think all cultures are «equal» somehow. Some cultural disadvantages (min
55 LAXintl : You need to put this on context. In most Muslim countries the Christian or non Muslim populations are extremely small so yes their symbols are not of
56 WarRI1 : Kansas is a state in the US, this was a Democratic vote of an entire nation, quite a difference. Shall we turn the other cheek, while instead of slap
57 Post contains links Pilotsmoe : They wouldn't be able to because refrendums/initiatives aren't allowed in that state http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initiat...and_referenda_in_the_Unit
58 Superfly : Kudos to Switzerland! I hope to see this trend continue in Europe and throughout the world. If I was to move to another country, I'd make sure I'd ass
59 N229NW : Take up the White Man's burden-- Ye dare not stoop to less-- Nor call too loud on Freedom To cloke your weariness; By all ye cry or whisper, By all y
60 Yellowstone : If Swiss Muslims were mostly white Europeans, do you think there'd be this degree of opposition to them? I sure don't. "Islamic," in this context, is
61 WarRI1 : Not being from Europe, I can only say that maybe Europe is learning something from their mistakes, a huge mistake. Draconian? I think the Muslims hav
62 Superfly : Yep. That's not true at all. Europe has had brown-skin immigrants long before Muslims expansion within the last 15 years. Immigration to Europe is no
63 LTU932 : That's all we want from immigrants, that they learn of and accept our customs, and most importantly, respect our laws and learn our language. Is it s
64 Acheron : Well, if it isn't panem et circenses, what problem does this referendum solves when minaret construction was restricted in the first place as it is?.
65 LAXintl : How about the other side of the coin? Societies should evolve and learn to except differences also. Expecting immigrants to become copycats or clones
66 TheCol : The foundation of our country is based on those British, French, and native traditions, and they will always remain "Official".
67 LTU932 : Of course we should also embrace other cultures, but not at the expense of our own. And we do not expect them to become clones of "us". Many people f
68 Post contains links ManuCH : Well, if anything, that's precisely one of the arguments that made me undecided - and wanted a part of me to vote for the ban. There's even a Swiss p
69 Afterburner : Mosques and minarets don't have to be built with Middle-eastern style architecture. In Indonesia, the designs of some mosques were influenced by Budd
70 DocLightning : I'm very surprised. On the one hand, Switzerland has historically been the home of white, Christian people. On the other hand, I am surprised to see
71 Asturias : Ah.. wrong on so many levels. Suffice it to say that culture is not bound to creed, color, ethnicity or any biological phenotype. Furthermore, you ar
72 Mir : No difference at all. Both are voting on something that they have jurisdiction over. " target=_blank>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initiat...tates It'
73 MD11Engineer : Well, basically the Swiss voters voted to ban all visible signs of Islam in Switzerland and delegated the Muslim communities to mosques in converted g
74 Asturias : First of all: there is no «meditarranean culture».. unless you consider food to be culture. It's not. And even the food is not the same all over th
75 Maverick623 : I would wager it's both, unless you're trying to imply a third choice of a conspiracy. Just look at California. They have much the same referendum se
76 MD11Engineer : I´m speaking about a certain aspect which has in the past been present all over the mediterranean region, though in some countries (e.g. Spain and P
77 Asturias : Yes.. well this sort of existed all over Europe at one time or another. That's probably why I didn't identify it as specifically mediterranean, thoug
78 Afterburner : No. It is not part of Muslim culture. I believe this honour killings had been existed before Islam.
79 MD11Engineer : Not apological at all. I´m just against the good "Christian Europeans" versus "bad Muslims" attitude, simply due to knowing too many moderate, weste
80 StealthZ : Not sure how this relates to the subject but as you seem to have some firm idea would you care to clarify what "seems to be happening in Australia" E
81 L410Turbolet : "Minarets are our bayonets. The domes are our helmets, the mosques our barracks and the believers our army." Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan, 19
82 N1120A : Um, you seem to have completely missed the fact that Moslems have been in Europe for more than 1000 years. But do they really? I know lots of assimil
83 MD11Engineer : How many Muslims are living in the Czech Republic? And what is your personal experience with Muslims? I´m not speaking about soundbites issued by po
84 Jalap : Sign of the times. And sad times it are. The people are more selfish and intolerant than ever. Banning stuff is incredibly popular, especially banning
85 Pilotsmoe : It's a religion, not a race. The only people that thought the jews were their own separate race were the nazis. Jews come from all over.
86 PanHAM : They are in fact, most come from the Balkans, plus the Turkish population in Switzerland. The Swiss don't like too many Germans around either, since
87 Post contains links and images AviationMaster : Extreme reactions will only help SVP gain even more voters. Its the biggest mistake that the muslim community could do at this moment. There several
88 AirPacific747 : Not sure what I think of this... I don't really think this is the way to go.. rather just limit the number of immigrants if you are afraid of losing y
89 N1120A : Jews themselves push the idea of being Jewish as not merely a religion, but an ethnic identity. Not hard to see how Europeans would project the same,
90 AlexEU : I got a feeling that most American a.nutters are always trying to compare American vs. European democracy, which is totaly incomparable. First of all,
91 KiwiRob : It's probably several hundred, a lot get sent back home and are killed there or just simply dissappear and are never heard from again. Honour killing
92 SOBHI51 : Your sources, please.
93 Asturias : It has everything to do with political correctness, for indeed your quote was the following PC drivel: «Each culture has its pluses and minuses, and
94 SOBHI51 : The noise ban already exist on muezzin. Let me ask you why the sudden need to ban them, if there is already noise restrictions laws on the muezzin, i
95 AlexEU : A lot of immigrants from Phillipinnes, Kerala plus workers from USA and Europe. Ok, maybe several million is too much, but I don´t see how 20 mosque
96 SOBHI51 : Is this going to turn to mine is bigger than yours debate? Dong Ok we know by now that you hate Islam and Muslims good for you, on the other side i a
97 Springbok747 : Then you (and by you I mean Switzerland) have just shown the world that you're xenophobic and racist. Its minarets now, whats next? Buddhist and Hind
98 SOBHI51 : There absolutely no migration from those countries to the Kingdom, they are here temporary for jobs and they will go home at the end of there contrac
99 Asturias : Actually that was sarcasm used as to highlight a vaporous and meaningless 'argument'. He was complaining people were «generalizing without any real
100 Post contains links Lumberton : An opinion piece from Der Spiegel on the vote and unintended consequences. A little harsh.... Swiss Minaret Ban Reflects Fear of Islam, Not Real Probl
101 Na : I´m married to a black woman who has a muslim mother. I doubt you have the right to call me racist because I think this step against a high-visibili
102 Asturias : A little too harsh.. almost panicky, really. If the muslim world will get all up in arms because of this, burn effigees and threaten bombings... well
103 Ajd1992 : I don't believe in religion, so having a secular government wouldn't bother me. In fact, I'd rather live under a secular government. I believe a gove
104 Afterburner : I will say the same to Spain if I'm a native American. The period when Arab and Berbers invaded Iberian peninsula and spreading Islam is often called
105 David L : I can't claim to be an expert on Switzerland but I have spent a couple of weeks visiting my brother there each year since 1990. In the last few years
106 AlexEU : Then Europeans should boycott UAE tourism and banking. You are right, they are temporary workers, but anyway they don´t can´t even practice their r
107 SOBHI51 : By invading other countries,hmmm.BTW what happened to this Empire? Same as the Muslims did with the Crusade? Now how about returning Septa and Melila
108 Asturias : Good. Great, you do that! And why shouldn't you, Spain certainly conquered most of the Americas! The spreading of Islam was just called a callous inv
109 SOBHI51 : Yes they can. Why the UAE?
110 SOBHI51 : You and me will be lucky if we have 10% of Edward Said brains. Loon you said, wrong a very smart guy, met him in person and i was very impressed.
111 Post contains links Afterburner : You can see it in Wikipedia: Islamic Conquest. Even you inadvertently agree with the idea that it was an Islamic invasion.
112 Asturias : No no, very advertently. Actually. I completely know that there was an islamic invastion, all I said was that (and I quote myself) «Not heard that t
113 N867DA : See, this is what I find absolutely disgusting. Cultural and religious imperialism seems to be acceptable as long as your culture is the one that is
114 KiwiRob : And that's exactly what should have happened in Europe then the mess that is excessive migration wouldn't be the problem that it it today. I'm sorry
115 SOBHI51 : That might be true, but, they were allowed to migrate in the first place, they did have problems assimilating with the people of the new country,fine
116 SOBHI51 : Now how do they know the difference between undesirable, uneducated, useless people and the desirable? There religion? So we start discriminating aga
117 N867DA : I'm sorry, but as an immigrant to the US I find that your post is offensive, and though not blatantly xenophobic it comes close. What ''baggage''? Re
118 Afterburner : People complain that a lot of immigrants don't assimilate. Can anybody tell me to what extent immigrants has to assimilate? Do they have to use local
119 KiwiRob : Religions need not enter into it, but as a general rule of thumb a lot of the more useless and undesirable immigrants come from Somalia, Angola, Iraq
120 SOBHI51 : Angola does not have a large Muslim community. Now lets say i agree on the above i still can not see the relation between that and the ban on minaret
121 CPH-R : Incidently, plans have just been aired for the building of a mosque in my hometown Roskilde, complete with dome and minarets I personally wouldn't mi
122 KiwiRob : I am immigrant to Norway, the difference between me and a lot of immigrant groups in Norway is that I fit in, I don't expect Norway to conform to my
123 KiwiRob : You have to start somewhere, although France made the first move with the headscarf ban, Switzerland followed it up with minarets ...................
124 AirPacific747 : That is because the US is nothing but immigrants, so it is difficult not to assimilate. Europe is not comparable as there is already a native populat
125 KiwiRob : I like this meaning of assimilation Immigrant assimilation is a complex process in which an immigrant fully integrates themselves into a new country.
126 Post contains images Afterburner : What do you have to start? Start the "purification" of Europe?   Edited: smiley[Edited 2009-11-30 08:44:53 by afterburner]
127 Cgnnrw : Some posters stated they hated hearing church bells in the morning. Well I'm pretty darn sure most of the churches were built way before your homes we
128 PanHAM : Language is the key to success. We have a lot of successful immigrants who speak flawless German, sometimes even the local dialect from where they li
129 KiwiRob : I think immigration should be stopped until the current immigrants have settled and assimilated to the European way of life, after isn't that why the
130 Afterburner : I know. That's why my wife and I send our kids to a bilingual (English and Indonesian) school. We even like our kids to be able to speak another fore
131 Afterburner : Does this include immigrants from countries like Australia, New Zealand, United States, and Canada?
132 MadameConcorde : What is the percentage of Muslims among the population in the whole of Switzerland? Does the country have a relatively large Muslim community? I suspe
133 KiwiRob : Yes it would, the only exceptions I would allow would be family reunifications, although that would not include fathers marrying there daughters like
134 PanHAM : That's always the case. An expat collegue who was in Nigeria for some time, his little son played with the servants kids and learned the local dialec
135 Yellowstone : The country's only about 4 percent Muslim. But then again, suppose only 4 percent of Swiss residents want to paint their house pink. Should they pass
136 SOBHI51 : Seems some people can fit in but they do feel that they don't belong there. Like wearing different cloth, speaking another language or even still pos
137 Post contains images MUWarriors : For those who complain about the language barrier, as a general rule of thumb, first generation immigrants are unlikely to speak the native language a
138 TSS : What are the "kin liability laws"? I've never heard of them before.
139 SOBHI51 : Minarets are just a symbol, exactly like the bell tower in a church. With what legislation that already exist in Switzerland they can not be used to
140 L410Turbolet : The question stands differently: If things such as those you mention are so much against your values and beliefs so much... if you can't stand your k
141 Slider : Damn straight…you can preserve your own culture but not at the expense of others. You’re free to turn in your passport and denounce your citizens
142 WarRI1 : I did read both, this once again was a NATIONAL issue and vote, not a regional or statewise one. I am sorry, but there is a big difference.
143 SOBHI51 : You can call me whatever you like but i will not allow my daughter to dress like a slut. Some of the clothing out there are not suitable for self res
144 Springbok747 : Not true. I used to work at the international office at our Uni and have come across many students from Europe (Norway, Sweden, Eastern Europe) who'v
145 Superfly : Please don't lump Muslims in with the rest of racial minorities. The immigrants from China, Ghana, Trinidad and India aren't carrying out honor killi
146 Post contains links Slider : In and of itself, it doesn’t. If hearing a call for prayers going up doesn’t constitute noise pollution. No one’s banning mosques, are they? It
147 AirPacific747 : Ok that might be but you're comparing students who live there temporarily with your familywho has settled there permanently. Not a fair comparison I
148 Superfly : OK, you're off the hook this time.
149 DocLightning : I agree. And I am very careful about my comparisons to Nazis. When I make such a comparison, I darned well mean it. And that scares the daylights out
150 SOBHI51 : The religion is Islam, followers of that religion are Muslims. There is already a ban on the call for prayers in Switzerland. really the ban on minar
151 MD11Engineer : When I´m speaking of modern Europeanised Muslims I´m thinking e.g. about the Turkish wife of one of my younger colleagues. She is smart, independen
152 SOBHI51 : Is that hinting that all Muslims minority are ignorant,uneducated or criminals. In each group there always a good and a bad. Not all Muslims are radi
153 Aviationmaster : Adapting in the sense of respecting the law, learning the language, etc. No special treatment in the sense of Sharia Law and the like. I sure did. Al
154 Post contains images BA : You do realize that Edward Said was Christian, right? How do minarets interfere with the Swiss people's way of life? As has been said, the Muslim cal
155 Superfly : No, I am saying the same thing you're saying. Muslim/Islam is a religion, not a race. Anyone else have issue with that comment? Of all ethnic and rel
156 SOBHI51 : That is not a response to my question. Is this a hint that all Muslim minority are criminals, radicals and do not respect the law of the land? If my
157 L410Turbolet : Why go all the way to the extreme and why not e.g. address the coed issue? Anyway thanks for the insight... Where I come from daughters from a certai
158 LTU932 : I know of Muslims who are peaceloving and "progressive" so to say (I recall conversations with a Jordanian colleague, who told me how liberal Jordan
159 Lewis : I see it more like a symbolic decision. Although most European countries are secular, their traditions, laws, values and culture are based on Christia
160 SOBHI51 : Really depends how you raise your children. Do not have to see my children using drugs and turn away.i do influence there decision, what does a 15 ye
161 SOBHI51 : There is no culture differences here. The facts that since those idiots of 9/11 London and Madrid bombing, Muslims are feeling some kind of hatred ca
162 MD11Engineer : You´ll have to distinguish between the terrorists from Arabic countries from the late 1960s-early 1970s period and those who appeared later (after t
163 DocLightning : I agree that they should have to learn the language and that Sharia law should not be instituted. However, I don't see what that has to do with minar
164 Springbok747 : Not really. Some students come here to study for 4 to 5 years..thats a long time, some adapt very well and even settle here after their studies. Even
165 TIA : I would have no problem with the ban, if it was for the right reasons. In terms of religion, I am more agnostic than anything else, although raised Ch
166 Superfly : All the Nigerians I know are Christians and all the Indians I know are Hindu.
167 SOBHI51 : I defend what i believe is right. If there something wrong in KSA i will say it. Well said. Again well said. The Swiss could have banned any religiou
168 LTU932 : I believe England was playing with the thought of allowing courts to judge by Sharia law.
169 SOBHI51 : I know and i was not surprised. During British occupation in Egypt there was 2 legal systems one for foreigners the other for locals. Any dispute bet
170 LTU932 : Yes, but Turkey was founded by Mustafa Kemal as a secular state, and it is still a secular state today. Religion has absolutely no say there, and if
171 Derico : You have a point, now I'll conceded it takes two to tango, the immigrants must be willing to adapt to the host country and not expect every single as
172 N229NW : That is indeed a rotten reason to vote against the ban. People should vote based on what is just and logical, not out of fear. Of course, I think at
173 KiwiRob : Indians do carry out honor killings. I should have been more specific and said Pakistan, there are many Pakistanis in Norway and they don't really fi
174 TRVYYZ : There is difference between India and pakistan when it comes to this subject. In, India it is illegal and hence the occurrences are lower compared to
175 N867DA : I'm sure there are plenty of New Zealanders who don't fit in either. Especially if they have a smidge of Maori in them... Right? The more I read your
176 Post contains links ManuCH : It's because of ignorance. There must be a communication problem somewhere: many people I know associate Muslims = terrorists, period. It's really ha
177 KiwiRob : Easy pack up and go home. Having a smidge of maori is often a wonderful advantage in NZ, it helps you fit in even more. My smidge is just enough. Her
178 AirPacific747 : No one said they shouldn't assimilate at all, but I don't see why students should assimilate like people who choose to settle there for the rest of t
179 KiwiRob : But most of the immigrants who came to the US came form Europe and generally had the same religious background, the US was a vast emply space which ne
180 AirPacific747 : Yes you're right.. Minnesota and I think Washington state as well were popular amongst Scandinavians. And New Orleans must have been dominated by the
181 TIA : Then you don't know many Indians and Nigerians, because about half of Nigerians are Muslims and there is a reason why India has the second largest Mu
182 AlexEU : That´s another reason why USA can´t be compared with Europe. If minarets were banned in USA that would be discimination. However Switzerland is a d
183 AirPacific747 : True, but everyone is aware that their own ancestors were immigrants themselves, therefore perhaps a better understanding of other immigrants.
184 SOBHI51 : Really this is the first time i heard about it. Do you have the source?
185 Post contains links AlexEU : I just gave example. I don´t know if it was UAE, but several Muslim nations said that this will effect the economy between Switzerland and the respe
186 SOBHI51 : There will be a very mute official response. Do not see widespread riots or demonstration. A few here and there. Maybe strong reaction will come from
187 Baroque : So you must think I should be able to object after our house was built and three mosques moved in so we get surround sound at prayer time? I rather d
188 Afterburner : You must have missed my post (reply #69): Until a cheaper alternative to fossil fuel has been found, the US will never boycott Saudi's oil.
189 SOBHI51 : But there was noise coming out from those minarets in Switzerland, you could be surrounded by 30 mosques still not hear anything.
190 AlexEU : I don´t think so. Iran doesn´t interfere in the internal relations of other countries.
191 PanHAM : . [/quote] He He, that's a good one. Lebanon, Israel, Iraq. just to mention three.
192 AlexEU : Apart from Lebanon (which is based on religious grounds), Israel is not internal (it´s Palestine-Israel) and Iraq is also not internal (since it inc
193 Baroque : I know (there was no noise). But there is from the mosques near our house, but that is the norm for Indonesia. And Switzerland also has its norms. If
194 ManuCH : Why should anyone debunk them? That's an easy one - if nobody does, minaret bans are passed with a popular vote, because unfortunately, most people b
195 SOBHI51 : They do, take Iraq, Lebanon, Egypt and Yemen as examples. Still they have there own followers in the country creating all kinds of mayhem I think i w
196 PanHAM : Everything they do is based on religious grounds and sending suicide bombers to Israel, direct or indirect, or simply interfering by paying premiums
197 Directorguy : I must say I have mixed feelings about this. While at the beginning I didn't like the sound of it, I've always said that it's a shame the architecture
198 SOBHI51 : We are trying, but some people are making our job difficult if not impossible. kicking Muslims out of a plane because they were praying, cartoons, re
199 Baroque : I know, I was agreeing! I look forward to someone being able to find that amplifiers re banned in the Qur'an, must be there somewhere! I spent an int
200 SOBHI51 : No such luck i am afraid. If you get an opened religious guy Islam becomes a wonderful religion, and if he can have his views known that will help wi
201 MD11Engineer : One thought: In Germany many Christian parish churches have to close due to lack of attention and lack of funds. I have heard that in some instances l
202 Baroque : I was the co-chair of a joint committee and one year Agama put up a representative. There was one of the Australians who was quite religious and I am
203 KiwiRob : I'm not at all religious, I don't believe in any god, but somehow I find it offensive that one religion would use anothers building, I'd rather see th
204 SOBHI51 : If this is true, then those people are doing a wrong move. One of the Sahaba, while entering Jerusalem, heard the call to prayer, he was invited to p
205 SOBHI51 : I agree with you 100%. If we want others to respect our house of worship then we should respect there's. BTW MD11 said he had heard so it might right
206 MD11Engineer : Well, the building has been de-sacrified by the previous Christian owners and all Christian symbols removed, so in the end it is just an empty buildi
207 Travelin man : I got through about 150 of the posts above, and I still don't understand this new Swiss law. Can someone please answer the following question: The Swi
208 PanHAM : We have the same proverb here.
209 Mir : Sorry, there isn't. There cannot be a federal referendum on an issue that involves Kansas, just as there cannot be a European referendum on something
210 MD11Engineer : It is not aimed at radical Muslims, but at Muslims in general Jan
211 ManuCH : Unfortunately, nobody really knows why. That will be the jobs of the sociologists to analyze. When you vote, you don't have to say why you vote for o
212 Avent : My guess is the minarets are seen as a symbol of change and foreign cultures. It is ironic that european civilization thrived on exporting itself thr
213 Travelin man : But was there a campaign for the measure? Arguments in favor? Advertising? There must have been some messaging in Switzerland that said "vote for the
214 ManuCH : The campaign was based on the first banner you can see in reply 138. The main tactic was to instill fear of the unknown in uninformed people, scaremo
215 Directorguy : Not everything in Islam has to come in the Quran, and the Shari'a is open to interpretation. It is not a matter of life and death if that annoying sh
216 SOBHI51 : You should hear the one next to my house. Noticed that the call to prayer in Egypt have a nicer voice with some (may i dare say) tune which make easi
217 MD11Engineer : I noticed that the people in here, who are most crying about an "Islamic cultural invasion" are those with very little personal knowledge of Muslim pe
218 Post contains images Dreadnought : I'm sorry, but that's hardly the full story. First and foremost, let's explain to our non-Swiss members here a little about Swiss laws concerning con
219 SOBHI51 : Not in Aspen CO Zoning laws would have taken care of that. You did not need a referendum to ban Minarets if they do not comply. Caliphates are part o
220 Post contains links Dreadnought : There are millions of your compatriots who openly claim to want its return, by whatever means necessary. Again, millions of Muslims in non-muslim cou
221 Mir : So if it's so easy to stop a minaret from being built, why the need for a blanket ban? -Mir
222 SOBHI51 : Where do you get those millions from? Canada never herd such a move there. Covering is mandatory in only few countries. Nobody forces women to cover
223 Avent : Maybe it is. An argument that really concerns zoning, but that applies to both islamic and non-islamic towers... So, once one christian denomination
224 MD11Engineer : There are also quite a few people around who want the return of the Soviet Union or of Nazi Germany. Extremists exist in all political directions and
225 Post contains links Dreadnought : One is too many. It's like saying the Nazis only invaded a few countries. That fight has been going on for years. Google "Sharia in Canada" and you g
226 Avent : By which you mean invading and conquering nations that didn't attack them in order to impose cultural and political values? This is true today for th
227 Post contains links SOBHI51 : Can you make sure next time to express yourself clearly in a way that your posting is not taken as a personal attack. I was born Syrian and i am prou
228 Superfly : Probably because the one's who are here in America and successful are from the southern part of Nigeria which is mostly Christian. India has the worl
229 Post contains images SOBHI51 : 14% or over 140 million, thats not peanut either. We know how good you are in this field.   You can not atribute all the problems of Europe on Musli
230 Baroque : Yes I know and I don't care where the ruling would be found. Really I was just trying to draw attention to the oddity that while "it is decreed" that
231 SOBHI51 : As long as there is no Minaret involved
232 Superfly : Thanks. I agree. The problem is that far-right wing nationalist will blame all of Europe's problems on immigrants and they'll continue to gain power
233 Avent : The exact same concern is true for the bible thumpers also.
234 SOBHI51 : Sorry Superfly, but really do not recall this incident, do you have a reference. Thanks
235 Post contains links Dreadnought : Are you kidding? Nigerian Christians an Muslims have been at each other's throats for years, mainly due to Muslims attempting to impose Sharia Law on
236 Post contains links StealthZ : I will chime in with a reference from that tabloid scandal rag... the BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4728616.stm It is that sort of reaction to such
237 Baroque : To which one could add the spread of poliomyelitis in N Nigeria due to phobias about immunization programs leading to infection of Hajj pilgrims and
238 Avent : It's worth noting the rightwing bible-thumpers have been trying the same kind of stuff here with support from republicans and conservatives.
239 ManuCH : You say... Are you sure? I re-quote what I said earlier: For what reason should the Swiss put a blanket ban on minarets, if building them was mostly f
240 Post contains links BarfBag : Very rare in India today, so much so that when it happens, it gets a lot of publicity. There are draconian, and these days regularly misused, laws th
241 SOBHI51 : No i am not kidding. I did not know about this incident, so i asked Superfly for a reference, Again please watch how you address me. This incident wa
242 OA260 : In Ireland we have a large population of Nigerians and they are a split mix of Catholics and Muslims although more Catholics. Also a large Indian com
243 SOBHI51 : And of course the media does not miss an opportunity to jump on those incidents to make things worse. Even me when i read or see what some idiots are
244 Ferengi80 : Kudos to the Swiss. I have no problems with imigration, I'm all for allowing people freedom to move as they please, however, as has been pointed out i
245 SOBHI51 : Excellent, but still how does baning minarets helps to achieve that? Immigrant should respect the law in there new country, learn the language and tr
246 Directorguy : Yes, downtown most apartments can hear a local muezzin, but the sound isn't terrible as it tends to be subdued by all the car honking below. But sinc
247 MD11Engineer : Does it in your opinion also include converting to the mainstream religion of this country? This is exactly what some of the people in my village thi
248 StealthZ : I have no argument with that and I am also very much aware that the radical elements in the muslim world kill and terrorize more fellow muslims than
249 EA CO AS : Because unfortunately, Muslims have a bad PR problem and haven't done enough to aggressively combat the "radical zealot" stereotype. And that's great
250 Mrocktor : That really says it all. You ban the architectural feature and in doing so you import the absolute worst part of the islamic culture: tyranny. Can yo
251 SOBHI51 : Can somebody tell me how can we fight such an idiot? Some here say that moderate Muslims are not doing enough, Any suggestions? How can you fight an
252 Post contains links Lh526 : Turkish prime minister Erdogan talks about Islamophobia being a "crime against humanity" and the votum a "sign of an increasing racist and fascist sta
253 Baroque : A good one. On the other hand, "my" Imam was a tad more enlightened than that and would never have done that. The useless answer is God only knows. B
254 KiwiRob : Just curious can a tourist even get a visa to go to Saudi, I thought you could only go for business reasons? What would a non muslim person do in Sau
255 MD11Engineer : " target=_blank>http://www.newsweek.com/id/204894 Now I could ask the same question I asked above concerning Muslims: How many of these 64% have actu
256 SOBHI51 : " target=_blank>http://www.newsweek.com/id/204894 I really wished that you did not take one small part and left the others. Let me quote some. As one
257 Post contains links SOBHI51 : Yes you can there is even tours. www.tours.com/tours_vacations/saudi_arabia.htm www.middleeasthub.com I also suggest going here www.middleeasthub.com
258 Lh526 : SOBHI51, I highly respect your oppinion here, yet I have amyn muslim friends, and 100% of them are highly educated and share a broad knowdledge of th
259 SOBHI51 : I really wish i have an answer to that. the only hope i have is that they are growing in numbers. Some countries did have radical changes in there ed
260 Lh526 : Wich is an excellent start. The most important thing however is that they do it off their own accord and act so because they themselves believe and w
261 Baroque : Before we in "the educated West" start to feel too superior, recall the experiences of Marie Stopes when she was researching birth control found that
262 Avent : You seem to forget there were plenty of idiotic things in Western culture that took considerable time to sort out. It will take time for the arab wor
263 Post contains links Radiopolitic : There's less than a million Muslims in Canada but there was an attempt to get Sharia law implemented in Ontario for Muslims. http://www.cbc.ca/canada
264 Afterburner : In a suburb west of Sydney, Australia, the Muslim community there bought a building that used to be a church belonged to an Italian community. This b
265 DocLightning : You know, I have some ideas. The Mullahs and Imams in Mecca can declare them to be excommunicated from the Muslim faith and not welcome in Mecca or M
266 MD11Engineer : Both the protestant Christians and the Muslims (excepting the Iranian Shi´ites) have one big problem: They are practically a loose assembly of indep
267 Post contains links ManuCH : This thread is becoming too long and will be locked. Please continue discussion here: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban (Part 2) (by ManuCH Dec
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