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Howard Dean Urges Defeat Of Health Care Bill  
User currently offlineDXing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (5 years 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2193 times:

Even the screamer, Howard Dean finally gets it.

http://www.ketknbc.com/news/howard-dean-urges-defeat-health-bill

"You will be forced to buy insurance. If you don't, you'll pay a fine," said Dean, a physician. "It's an insurance company bailout." Interviewed on ABC's "Good Morning America," he said the bill has some good provisions, "but there has to be a line beyond which you think the bill is bad for the country."

Although I think the fact that the government would for the first time in our history force an individual to buy something just to live in the country is more important than an insurance company bailout, his premise that it makes the bill bad for the country is completely correct.

Maybe now the liberals will wake the hell up and realize what the majority of Americans have already realized long ago, that this bill is just a piece of stinking garbage that needs to go straight to the dump.

[Edited 2009-12-16 16:41:03]

50 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlanker From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1661 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (5 years 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2182 times:

Actually the first thing the libs will do is throw Dean under the bus.


Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist
User currently offlineAirstud From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2762 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2160 times:

Yeah it's not a good bill at all. Simultaneously ambitious and short-sighted.

(jeez you'd almost think Obama was too inexperienced....)



Pancakes are delicious.
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (5 years 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2155 times:

Hate to say it but he is right. This bill is a joke now. A total waste of time and a huge loss for the DNC even if passed. Instead of holding true to their ideals they sold out. Bad for everyone. Even Pelosi will cave.

User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8952 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2144 times:

If you needed further proof that the purpose of the bill is NOT to bring the cost of health care under control, today the Democrats killed an amendment to allow pharmacies and wholesalers to buy drugs overseas if it's cheaper.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2009/12/14/AR2009121401409.html

Let's quickly review. The supposed purpose of this reform was twofold - 1) get everyone covered by health insurance of one sort or another, and 2) reduce the cost of healthcare which is taking a bigger and bigger chunk out of people's pockets.

This bill provides less than half of the current uninsured with coverage, and CBO estimated that the average health insurance policy for a single person will increase by $1700 per year - around $140 per month.

And on top of that, it will cost trillions of dollars.

Utter and complete failure from all rational aspects.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8289 posts, RR: 26
Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2130 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
And on top of that, it will cost trillions of dollars.

Utter and complete failure from all rational aspects.

What to expect from a bunch of lawyers who haven't worked a day in their lives? Such a waste.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2123 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
If you needed further proof that the purpose of the bill is NOT to bring the cost of health care under control, today the Democrats killed an amendment to allow pharmacies and wholesalers to buy drugs overseas if it's cheaper.

Yea really, buying from Canada is great. So much cheaper! Why block that?


User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3410 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2111 times:



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 6):
Yea really, buying from Canada is great. So much cheaper! Why block that?

Its cheaper because its very regulated and a lot of the drugs are allowed to be sold as their parent names, I don't think this is true south of the border where you have to buy the specific brand.

Example you can buy stock Acetaminophen over Tylenol if you wish, or Ibuprofen over Advil.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8952 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2100 times:



Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 7):
Its cheaper because its very regulated and a lot of the drugs are allowed to be sold as their parent names, I don't think this is true south of the border where you have to buy the specific brand.

You can get generics in the US, no problem. The problem is that pharmaceutical companies use the US market more than anywhere else as a profit center with which to pay for their worldwide R&D.

They also market like crazy. For a person moving to the US, one of the most shocking things is how you constantly see advertising on TV for perscription drugs. That should be banned, IMHO.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8471 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2080 times:

Dean sprouted off to keep the liberals happy.

My bet is that the bill goes forward.

The one change I would like to see however, is to make pre-existing condition discrimination illegal effective on the day the bill is signed.

I'm in the camp that believes as soon as the private insurance companies look at the "challenges" of taking care of patients they previously called "rejects" these companies will decide they prefer to let the government take care of them under a public option.

The other thing Dean understands is that there ill be other opportunities in the future to improve the current situation.


User currently offlineDXing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2071 times:



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 9):
The one change I would like to see however, is to make pre-existing condition discrimination illegal effective on the day the bill is signed.

After 90 days there will be a completely seperate government run insurance program for those with pre-existing conditions. Page 41 of the link. That is todays bill, can't gaurantee that they won't change it tomorrow to buy off another vote.

http://democrats.senate.gov/reform/p...protection-affordable-care-act.pdf


8 Subtitle B—Immediate Actions to
9 Preserve and Expand Coverage
10 SEC. 1101. IMMEDIATE ACCESS TO INSURANCE FOR UNIN
11SURED INDIVIDUALS WITH A PREEXISTING
12 CONDITION.
13 (a) IN GENERAL.—Not later than 90 days after the
14 date of enactment of this Act, the Secretary shall establish
15 a temporary high risk health insurance pool program to
16 provide health insurance coverage for eligible individuals
17 during the period beginning on the date on which such
18 program is established and ending on January 1, 2014.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 9):
I'm in the camp that believes as soon as the private insurance companies look at the "challenges" of taking care of patients they previously called "rejects" these companies will decide they prefer to let the government take care of them under a public option.

Insurance companies won't have to worry about that since according to the bill the government creates the pool and helps pay for it.


User currently offlineFuturePilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2055 times:



Quoting DXing (Thread starter):
Maybe now the liberals will wake the hell up and realize what the majority of Americans have already realized long ago, that this bill is just a piece of stinking garbage that needs to go straight to the dump.

This isn't about liberals. Everyone needs to come together and realize what the real problems are with this bill. I love how you're only blaming liberals when conservatives have done nothing to help better the bill other than slander it with these ridiculous assertions about "death panels" and what have you.

We need to stop this bill, and turn it inside out. We need to see what the American people want, instead of throwing a bill forward that only helps the insurance companies get stronger while the consumer get's weaker. But we can't have proper reform if all conservatives can do is complain and complain and complain about what they DON'T want in the bill. If you don't have anything positive to add to a new health care bill, then stop raising all these ridiculous claims. If you think there is a problem you'd like the government to clarify, then protest it peacefully, don't run around the streets of Washington D.C. with the rest of your paranoid government conspiracy loving friends.



"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offlineYellowstone From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3071 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2052 times:



Quoting DXing (Reply 10):
Insurance companies won't have to worry about that since according to the bill the government creates the pool and helps pay for it.

Yes, but the pool in question ends in 2014, at which point the insurance companies will be stuck without the ability to turn customers away based on preexisting conditions. When that transition occurs, I think Ken is right in guessing that the insurance companies will decide that they'd much rather have the government cover the "rejects" than themselves.

This, incidentally, is the same reason why the idea of a public option only for those who can't get private health insurance was always stupid. The insurance companies would love to dump high-risk patients onto a government plan, and only cover the low-risk patients themselves.



Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
User currently offlineFuturePilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2045 times:



Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 12):

This, incidentally, is the same reason why the idea of a public option only for those who can't get private health insurance was always stupid. The insurance companies would love to dump high-risk patients onto a government plan, and only cover the low-risk patients themselves.

Well it turns out Obama never wanted the public option anyway, so all the fussing was over nothing. Personally, I as well as people I know are saying that even though we want healthcare reform, this bill does NOT cut it. I hope Obama knows he's messing around with the bull right now because a lot of leftists had already said if the public option is not included they will not vote in 2012. They need to stop this health care bill right now and do a massive overhaul on it. RIGHT NOW.



"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8289 posts, RR: 26
Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2033 times:



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 9):
Dean sprouted off to keep the liberals happy.

It's not just Dean - some 60% or more of physicians are against the current private system and support some form of public insurance.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2006 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
You can get generics in the US, no problem. The problem is that pharmaceutical companies use the US market more than anywhere else as a profit center with which to pay for their worldwide R&D.

Why get generics when you can get name brand from Canada for just as cheap?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 9):
Dean sprouted off to keep the liberals happy.

My bet is that the bill goes forward

I thought so too but I am not so sure now. The far left is livid and they are right. I would rather see no bill and start up again down the road then to hand the insurance companies a win. I didn't like the public option but some of the things the Dems can do to lower price are out there and they aren't even doing that. It all goes back to the fact the DNC is simply doing this to prove a point so they can stand up and say "look! we did something the GOP couldn't" to use at election time. It's politics in it's worse form. Where they should take a step back and do a decent bill. Who cares if it takes another 6 months? This bill will do more harm than doing nothing.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 11):
We need to stop this bill, and turn it inside out. We need to see what the American people want, instead of throwing a bill forward that only helps the insurance companies get stronger while the consumer get's weaker. But we can't have proper reform if all conservatives can do is complain and complain and complain about what they DON'T want in the bill. If you don't have anything positive to add to a new health care bill, then stop raising all these ridiculous claims. If you think there is a problem you'd like the government to clarify, then protest it peacefully, don't run around the streets of Washington D.C. with the rest of your paranoid government conspiracy loving friends.

Well as soon a the DNC stops the grandstanding and chest thumping maybe we can get somewhere. We need to be able to go to Canada, cross state lines and have oversight of the insurance companies. We need to slash the taxes and give tax breaks to all companies big and small that give employees health care. No pre existing condition etc. It's there but the DNC won't adopt it because they don't want any outside input and want to be heroes. Instead they are destroying themselves come November.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 13):
Well it turns out Obama never wanted the public option anyway, so all the fussing was over nothing. Personally, I as well as people I know are saying that even though we want healthcare reform, this bill does NOT cut it. I hope Obama knows he's messing around with the bull right now because a lot of leftists had already said if the public option is not included they will not vote in 2012.

You all blame Obama but it's not him, it's Pelosi. She is a hater, wants nobody to give input unless it agrees with her view and won't budge. She is a horrible speaker of the house and one of the biggest reasons we have no teamwork and why the congress since 06' is a disaster. Until you grasp the concept that this country is a center right country and not a secular progressive country, the better off we will be. Raising everyones taxes and spending a ton of money to have crap health care for all is not the answer. Until people like her are gone we will never imrprove.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8952 posts, RR: 24
Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1999 times:



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 15):
Why get generics when you can get name brand from Canada for just as cheap?

Drugs that are less than a decade old won't have generic alternatives. My wife has to take several drugs including one called Cellcept, which still costs over $400 per month. I've seen online pharmacies in Canada advertising the same stuff at less than half the cost.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6924 posts, RR: 34
Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1974 times:

Dean, whatever. At least they don't have to buy him off like they bribed Lieberman and Nelson (with the threat of closing an AFB that should be investigated).

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
If you needed further proof that the purpose of the bill is NOT to bring the cost of health care under control, today the Democrats killed an amendment to allow pharmacies and wholesalers to buy drugs overseas if it's cheaper.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2009/12/14/AR2009121401409.html

Let's quickly review. The supposed purpose of this reform was twofold - 1) get everyone covered by health insurance of one sort or another, and 2) reduce the cost of healthcare which is taking a bigger and bigger chunk out of people's pockets.

This bill provides less than half of the current uninsured with coverage, and CBO estimated that the average health insurance policy for a single person will increase by $1700 per year - around $140 per month.

And on top of that, it will cost trillions of dollars.

Utter and complete failure from all rational aspects.

Follow the money. So called "big pharma" has a lot of skin in the game...


User currently offlineDXing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1965 times:



Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 11):
I love how you're only blaming liberals when conservatives have done nothing to help better the bill other than slander it with these ridiculous assertions about "death panels" and what have you.

Conservatives have offered numerous amendments, virtually all have been voted down strictly along party lines. Next.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 11):
If you think there is a problem you'd like the government to clarify, then protest it peacefully, don't run around the streets of Washington D.C. with the rest of your paranoid government conspiracy loving friends.

You mean like the climate protesters over in CPH? The ones that are getting tear gassed and arrested? I liked Dennis Millers comment that it was pure irony that enviromentalists are being arrested and handcuffed with plastic zip ties that will take thousands of years to decompose in a land fill. Or do you mean like the anti-capitalists in Pittsburgh not long ago breaking windows and vandalizing the downtown area. Meanwhile how many were arrested at the tea party in Washington this year? Bueller? Bueller?

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 12):
Yes, but the pool in question ends in 2014

Not necessarily. Starting on page 47.

http://democrats.senate.gov/reform/p...protection-affordable-care-act.pdf


(3) TERMINATION OF AUTHORITY.—
18 (A) IN GENERAL.—Except as provided in
19 subparagraph (B), coverage of eligible individ
20 uals under a high risk pool in a State shall ter
21 minate on January 1, 2014.
22 (B) TRANSITION TO EXCHANGE.—The
23 Secretary shall develop procedures to provide
24 for the transition of eligible individuals enrolled
25 in health insurance coverage offered through a

S.L.C.
1 high risk pool established under this section
2 into qualified health plans offered through an
3 Exchange. Such procedures shall ensure that
4 there is no lapse in coverage with respect to the
5 individual and may extend coverage after the
6 termination of the risk pool involved, if the Sec
7retary determines necessary to avoid such a
8 lapse.


so it is written into the law that there can't be any lapse in coverage and if it appears there will be the program can be extended. Considering that there were Katrina victims still recieving rent subsidies that kept them in hotel rooms for almost a year or more after the hurricane, and that we were still paying a mohair subsidy from WW2 into the 1990's, I doubt the program will be cancelled in 2014.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 12):
This, incidentally, is the same reason why the idea of a public option only for those who can't get private health insurance was always stupid. The insurance companies would love to dump high-risk patients onto a government plan, and only cover the low-risk patients themselves.

As well they should, and as well so should the consumer want that to happen since it wil lower prices for those not in that group.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 14):
It's not just Dean - some 60% or more of physicians are against the current private system and support some form of public insurance.

Considering the problems that some seniors around the country are having in finding doctors willing to take on new medicare patients due to the cost of getting paid and the underpayment the government pays, I wonder how many of them will be happy when the same starts happening to people not currently on any public plan?


User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1949 times:



Quoting DXing (Reply 18):
Conservatives have offered numerous amendments, virtually all have been voted down strictly along party lines. Next.

Which is to be expected because no GOP involvement can be in thei bill. Pelosi was clear the moment the DNC won control of the congress by saying "WE WON" By saying this she made it clear that it was her way or no way. She doesn't want to cross the aisle and thinks this whole country wants to be far left. It doesn't and this debacle was a wakeup call and the resounding thud will be heard the first Wed in November when Reid is serving breakfast at the Terrible's in Searchlight. She has been the biggest problem for the DNC and nobody can tell her to shut up. Even Obama.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17823 posts, RR: 46
Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1942 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
The problem is that pharmaceutical companies use the US market more than anywhere else as a profit center with which to pay for their worldwide R&D.



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 6):
Yea really, buying from Canada is great. So much cheaper! Why block that?



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Democrats killed an amendment to allow pharmacies and wholesalers to buy drugs overseas if it's cheaper.

Does anyone know what percent of big pharma revenues versus customers come from the US?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 15):
You all blame Obama but it's not him, it's Pelosi.

Yeah but Obama *is* the President, and should take ownership from the witch



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineTommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6932 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1931 times:

Howard Dean. A true rebel. Too bad the media wrecked his campaign because of his loud scream. Washington could always use a good screamer!

EDIT:

And to add, Pelosi is a hater. Both her and Biden are true pushers in congress for the liberal elite. It's either her way or the highway. Obama, yeah he's just a regular joe but in the eyes of the liberal elite he can be persuaded to almost anything they say is right.

[Edited 2009-12-17 10:51:36]


"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8952 posts, RR: 24
Reply 22, posted (5 years 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1928 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 20):
Does anyone know what percent of big pharma revenues versus customers come from the US?

That would be very difficult. You would have to have access to their regional P&L's prior to R&D allocations, which is unlikely to be publicly available. I just went through Merck's Annual Report, and there are no financials with near that degree of granularity.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17823 posts, RR: 46
Reply 23, posted (5 years 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1919 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 22):
That would be very difficult. You would have to have access to their regional P&L's prior to R&D allocations, which is unlikely to be publicly available. I just went through Merck's Annual Report, and there are no financials with near that degree of granularity.

I assumed they'd have that as a talking point, ie US customers make up 20% of our total customers but 60% of our revenues or something like that. Airlines every once in a while mention what percent of their top customers generate whatever percent of their total revenue.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 17
Reply 24, posted (5 years 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1912 times:

Not a surprise to me at all ... these goons were going to pass the original bill that they didn't even read. A 2000 page bill ... that not one of them read or planned on reading !! Any American who supports that kind of irresponsible government deserves nothing from me. They really thought it was just going to pass ! amazing and disgusting !

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 20):
Yeah but Obama *is* the President, and should take ownership from the witch

A powerless President who owes his job to the left wing apparatus who put him there. He can not defy Nancy .... the Pelosi's and Dachals's were his best friends when he was a little known senator from Chicago. They polished him up , appointed him to committees and worked his name into the lights ... he is Pelosi he is the left.



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
25 Ken777 : I had some bigger increases in health insurance under Bush/Cheney. The mad rush by insurance companies to jack up prices this year may well be greate
26 NIKV69 : Why? He is a smart man, he has to know his re-election chances are shot at this point and he has a greater chance of getting more votes by distancing
27 Post contains links AGM100 : The President said if this does not pass the government is going to go bankrupt .... say it isn't so ..? Really ? I mean how can we survive if the gov
28 Slider : Most people don’t get it except those that are absolute ideologues, of which is he one. See, I believe most Americans, even normal Democrats, see t
29 AGM100 : The plan was too push all the left wing big ticket items though in the first 9 months or year. Then after a cool off period make a sharp swerve to th
30 Ken777 : Graph the percentage of the GNP that health care takes up over the years, then project it out in the future. At some point you'll see that you're phu
31 Yellowstone : Neither. Any public option, if it is to succeed both at covering the uninsured and at lowering health care costs, must be available for purchase by a
32 StarAC17 : Agreed because you are only supposed to take prescription drugs if a doctor deems you need to. Most adds are blocked on the US networks in Canada and
33 ThegreatRDU : It's a shame...health care is no laughing matter...but the politicians have to play politics....the idea is right the execution and the bill itself...
34 DXing : I've been consistant in saying that those with pre-existing conditions should have coverage. If private insurance is to do it then State barriers to
35 Yellowstone : Was that the rejects-only public option, or the open-to-all public option?
36 Cws818 : Not at all. First of all, Pelosi serves in the House, not the Senate; consequently, she cannot appoint any senator to any senate committee. Second, O
37 Aaron747 : Right, because Marx certainly would have appointed central bank insiders as SecTreas and rescued his university buds at federal housing lenders to sa
38 DXing : Makes no difference. Every plan they have come up with has shown that prices for the consumer will go up.
39 Slider : In order to extend the power of the Federal government? Yes.
40 AGM100 : The things you say are obviously "true" .... however you need to go back a read up on the backroom maneuvers by the democrats. In my opinion it was a
41 Aaron747 : Sorry, not to get too picky, but Marx never would have supported any kind of federal system.
42 Kappel : Dude... take the tinfoil hat off!! Or stop smoking, it's making you paranoid. I guess you also believe he was not born in the US. Do you even know wh
43 AGM100 : Well I am not french ... I stand corrected . Americans are different Kappel , and that can not just be dismissed. Many of us do not like the governme
44 Ken777 : True, but that has been slipping away for years in the private insurance sector. The concept now is to get rid of as many medium to high risk patient
45 AGM100 : I have not met a conservative that suggests getting rid of Medicare ... but adding 50 million people too it and raising taxes just to include the uni
46 Kappel : I'd welcome them!! I'd be a hypocrite not to, as I'm an immigrant myself... Although 30 million is about twice the size of the current Dutch populati
47 ThegreatRDU : If Howard Dean says there's something wrong....there's something wrong...
48 StarAC17 : Before you make cynical statements like this you should really put things in perspective, if this plan was ever put forward in any other developed co
49 DXing : Insurance for high risk has always been more expensive. It's part of spreading the risk. Unfortunately supporters of pre-exisitng conditions don't wa
50 Post contains links Slider : LMAO! If he's right wing, then what's the opposite in the Western world? When the President of the United States is on record threatening someone, bu
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