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Dems Have Fillabuster-Proof 60 For Health Care  
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3858 times:

Sen. Ben Nelson jumped on board today, and now the Dems have the 60 votes needed to move the Health Care Reform measure forward in the Senate.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/12/19/health.care/index.html

It isn't a perfect bill, far from it, but it is a good first step. Of course, the GOP is huffing and puffing on the sideline. The truth is they don't want ANY kind of reform. They're taking a huge political risk in being on the sidelines on this one.

Your comments.

226 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 1, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3850 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
The truth is they don't want ANY kind of reform.

Wrong. They have their own proposal, which the Dems have ensured never sees the floor of the House.

http://rules-republicans.house.gov/M...DF/RepublicanAlternative3962_9.pdf

Following are the key elements of Republicans’ alternative plan:
• Lowering health care premiums. The GOP plan will lower health care premiums for American families and small businesses, addressing Americans’ number-one priority for health care reform.
• Establishing Universal Access Programs to guarantee access to affordable health care for those with pre-existing conditions. The GOP plan creates Universal Access Programs that expand and reform high-risk pools and reinsurance programs to guarantee that all Americans, regardless of pre-existing conditions or past illnesses, have access to affordable care – while lowering costs for all Americans.
• Ending junk lawsuits. The GOP plan would help end costly junk lawsuits and curb defensive medicine by enacting medical liability reforms modeled after the successful state laws of California and Texas.
• Prevents insurers from unjustly cancelling a policy. The GOP plan prohibits an insurer from cancelling a policy unless a person commits fraud or conceals material facts about a health condition.
• Encouraging Small Business Health Plans. The GOP plan gives small businesses the power to pool together and offer health care at lower prices, just as corporations and labor unions do.
• Encouraging innovative state programs. The GOP plan rewards innovation by providing incentive payments to states that reduce premiums and the number of uninsured.
• Allowing Americans to buy insurance across state lines. The GOP plan allows Americans to shop for coverage from coast to coast by allowing Americans living in one state to purchase insurance in another.
• Promoting healthier lifestyles. The GOP plan promotes prevention & wellness by giving employers greater flexibility to financially reward employees who adopt healthier lifestyles.
• Enhancing Health Savings Accounts (HSAs). The GOP plan creates new incentives to save for current and future health care needs by allowing qualified participants to use HSA funds to pay premiums for high deductible health insurance.
• Allowing dependents to remain on their parents’ policies. The GOP plan encourages coverage of young adults on their parents’ insurance through age 25.

Cost of the GOP plan - virtually Zero.

Right now, public support for the Democratic plan is in the 30-percent range. You think it's such a wonderful idea to spend so much more money for a plan that does NOTHING to reduce medical costs, and covers only a fraction of the uninsured and raises the insurance costs for all Americans who are responsible and pay their own insurance?

I guess you must be the kind of person who, in response to losing his job, goes on a spending spree.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineGatorFan From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 331 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3839 times:

Raising taxes in the midst of a recession. Brilliant.

Health insurance premiums will go up.

Insurance companies limited to 20% gross profits (before expenses) - get ready for bankruptcies and then the required bailouts of the bankrupt insurance companies.

Senate leadership literally having to bribe Senators to support the bill.

Over 50% of the American public oppose the bill.

I think all this speaks for itself.


User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3828 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
It isn't a perfect bill, far from it, but it is a good first step. Of course, the GOP is huffing and puffing on the sideline. The truth is they don't want ANY kind of reform. They're taking a huge political risk in being on the sidelines on this one.

Your comments.

As are the democrats if this all goes south. There needs to be reform in the way health care in the US is run. However when you see the mess that is Medicare you have to wonder if about the unforeseen.


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8324 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3815 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
Ending junk lawsuits.

As well as valid ones.

The problem for defendants is that juries can get pissed. The GOP answer is to ensure that the juries never have the power they have had for generations.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
The GOP plan prohibits an insurer from cancelling a policy unless a person commits fraud or conceals material facts about a health condition.

Insurance companies are already experts at deciding there was concealed information and niggeling out of paying. One reason why juries are still important in this country.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
Encouraging Small Business Health Plans.

Let's try one price for everyone.

You can go back to, say, the 50s and work up a valid reason why volume discounts were viable. The clerical costs of smaller customers were greater than larger ones.

Today the world is different. With computers and the internet around there is no valid claim that it costs more to take care of the small company or individual.

Medicare Supplement policies are the best example around. You can go to the internet and get all the information you need. I got information on the various plans (and chose Plan F), got consumer grading on each company as well as costs at each company and any odd terms. I was able to pick the policy and insurance company while having a cup of coffee with the notebook in my lap. It just happened that my best option was from the company that covers my house and car so I called the agent and he was delighted to write up the policy.

For Plan D coverage I went to a local senior's center as that changes every year. It also provides some support for the center.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
Enhancing Health Savings Accounts (HSAs). The GOP plan creates new incentives to save for current and future health care needs by allowing qualified participants to use HSA funds to pay premiums for high deductible health insurance.

Wouldn't it be interesting to allow a full deduction for all medical expenses? Sure it would, but don't look for it to happen. HSA's make financial companies money off of them.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
Cost of the GOP plan - virtually Zero.

Sure. The hidden cost will be in the benefits to the insurance company.

Quoting GatorFan (Reply 2):
Insurance companies limited to 20% gross profits (before expenses) - get ready for bankruptcies and then the required bailouts of the bankrupt insurance companies.

Don't see a problem as most first rate companies are already there. If a few of the poorer performers leave then the good ones will simply move in and take over the business.

Quoting GatorFan (Reply 2):
Senate leadership literally having to bribe Senators to support the bill.

A few Senators were more aggressive than others, but is that anything new? Do you really believe that no Republican senators have ever played that game?


User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 30
Reply 5, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3805 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):

That plan is BRILLIANT. It is what REALLY needs to be done. Not this BS plan they are forcing now.



Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
User currently offlineMoose135 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2347 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3801 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
Wrong. They have their own proposal, which the Dems have ensured never sees the floor of the House.

And yet, when we had a Republican President, and Republican majorities in both the House and Senate, they chose not to put forward that plan. Can you tell my why that was?



KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4491 posts, RR: 21
Reply 7, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3788 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
They're taking a huge political risk in being on the sidelines on this one.

Well, I guess you can consider that anyone who votes either way on this is taking a political risk. Obviously that doesn't apply to people who just vote "present" for the big ones, but that's a story for another day.  Wink Harry Reid is pretty much committing suicide over it.

It appears the GOP is echoing the opinion of the majority of Americans in opposing this whale turd of a bill:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/124715/Ma...s-Not-Backing-Healthcare-Bill.aspx



I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
User currently onlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11418 posts, RR: 52
Reply 8, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3780 times:



Quoting GatorFan (Reply 2):
Raising taxes in the midst of a recession. Brilliant.

Kind of like lowering taxes at the start of a war?

Just a thought. Why don't we all stop oversimplifying the tax situation. I know it requires turning on your brains, but there are plenty of instances where the counterintuitive answer is the correct one. Kind of like steering into the skid.



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineSeb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11718 posts, RR: 15
Reply 9, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3764 times:



Quoting GatorFan (Reply 2):
Health insurance premiums will go up.

They will go up one way or another. It is what the big insurance companies will do to "teach us a lesson." They will raise rates, then say "See? This is what happens when government steps in!" Just wait.

Quoting GatorFan (Reply 2):
Raising taxes in the midst of a recession.

Boo freakin' hoo.... Bush LOWERED taxes then borrowed from China, Japan, and Saudi Arabia to fund his war as well as keeping the country running and No Child Left Behind. Everyone supporting the Republican party would cry and whine and pout unless their GOP leaders raised taxes. Then, it would make perfect sense.

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 3):
However when you see the mess that is Medicare you have to wonder if about the unforeseen.

What mess would that be? The doctors caring for Medicare patients or Congress borrowing against the future of Medicare?

Quoting Moose135 (Reply 6):
And yet, when we had a Republican President, and Republican majorities in both the House and Senate, they chose not to put forward that plan. Can you tell my why that was?

Many, many of us non-Republicans have been asking this same question since day one. Not one peep has been heard out of the right on this. All we hear is "Well, this Democratic bill is nothing but socialism and we should stop it!" Well, here we go again: Why didn't the Republicans do anything?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3750 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
The truth is they don't want ANY kind of reform. They're taking a huge political risk in being on the sidelines on this one

This is such BS. Just because the GOP didn't agree with the high taxing super spending bill to give people health care. Which if the GOP AND your moderate Dems didn't speak up against that disaster public option would have been terrible for us. You guys passed a bill just for the sake of passing a bill. There was no reason this couldn't have waited till after the holiday. It was political posturing and nothing more.

Quoting GatorFan (Reply 2):
Raising taxes in the midst of a recession. Brilliant.

They don't care they can cue up the "we inherited a mess" soundbyte they will be using right up until they lose a ton of seats this Nov and until Nov 2012 when Obama is shown the door. Dems don't want people to keep what they make. They want them to give half of it back so everyone can have the same.

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 7):
Harry Reid is pretty much committing suicide over it.

Doesn't matter he was losing this November regardless of this bill.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 11, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3732 times:



Quoting GatorFan (Reply 2):
Insurance companies limited to 20% gross profits (before expenses) - get ready for bankruptcies and then the required bailouts of the bankrupt insurance companies.

I am actually not against such regulation. If the industry is handed a mandate to insure everyone, then the balance has to be something in this form to prevent the insurance industry from screwing everyone.

However that still does not answer the constitutional challenge. This bill is clearly unconstitutional, and an amendment must be proposed. But then the Dems gon't give a sh%t about the Constitution anyway...

Quoting Moose135 (Reply 6):
And yet, when we had a Republican President, and Republican majorities in both the House and Senate, they chose not to put forward that plan. Can you tell my why that was?

No question the Republicans lost the plot for several years - which is why they are in trouble with voters as well. Consider that in a three-way Generic Ballot poll, scientifically conducted, the fictional, non-existant Tea Party gets nearly twice the votes as the GOP.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...ps_gop_on_three_way_generic_ballot

In the two-way poll, the GOP beats the Dems 44% to 37%.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...erica/generic_congressional_ballot

But both show that people are recoiling from the Democrat Party.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 4):

You have some valid comments and objections. The GOP plan is far from perfect, but has not been the subject of any debate or amendment process.

But the best feature of the GOP is that it does not require the funneling of more money through Washington. We, the American people, do not want more of our money being sucked up into the federal government. Enough is enough! Stop the spending!



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3734 times:



Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 5):

That plan is BRILLIANT.

If you REALLY believe anything any political party does is BRILLIANT, you have a huge problem, right there. The GOP plan wants to protect their interests-which are the insurance companies (by not letting them get sued), and business, and it wouldn't do squat for anyone else.

Quoting Moose135 (Reply 6):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
Wrong. They have their own proposal, which the Dems have ensured never sees the floor of the House.

And yet, when we had a Republican President, and Republican majorities in both the House and Senate, they chose not to put forward that plan. Can you tell my why that was?

It's because, as I said, they don't want reform. They like things as they are, which benefit their constituents, which include the insurance and pharmaceutical industries.

Quoting D L X (Reply 8):
Quoting GatorFan (Reply 2):
Raising taxes in the midst of a recession. Brilliant.

Kind of like lowering taxes at the start of a war?

Exactly.


User currently offlineGatorfan From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 331 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3725 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 11):
I am actually not against such regulation. If the industry is handed a mandate to insure everyone, then the balance has to be something in this form to prevent the insurance industry from screwing everyone.

A 20% gross profit margin is actually quite low. What people don't realize is that by forcing the insurance companies to pay out 80% of their premium dollars on an annual basis, they can't build any equity reserve, plus fund capital acquisitions, plus provide a return to shareholders. This limit is a backdoor nationalization. The private companies will go bankrupt, be bailed out and nationalized.

5 years after this goes into effect the government will own the health insurance companies. How will that be different than what Hugo Chavez does?


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 14, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3714 times:



Quoting Gatorfan (Reply 13):
What people don't realize is that by forcing the insurance companies to pay out 80% of their premium dollars on an annual basis, they can't build any equity reserve,

They don't need to build that much - that what re-insurance is for, unfortunately a concept not commonly used in the US. Reinsurance should be a requirement, not an option, for insurance companies.

Also, the limitations appear to apply to ALL health insurance. This is WRONG. They should have defined a specific minimal insurance package which all people should have, and the restrictions would apply to that. If customers are willing to pay extra for extra coverage, like for dental, private rooms, etc., that should be entirely free-market based.

Quoting Gatorfan (Reply 13):
This limit is a backdoor nationalization. The private companies will go bankrupt, be bailed out and nationalized.

If this reform had been done with the proper provisions, I would disagree. It could be made to work, just as it works in Switzerland, for instance.

But as it is, this appears to be a Health Care bill that is specifically designed to fail, so that in 10 years there is so much chaos in the industry that the people would be more accepting of a public option, or even single-payer, just to refloat the boat. I think that is the purpose behind it.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3699 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
They're taking a huge political risk in being on the sidelines on this one.

I guess we will see about that.

The sad reality ..no one knows what is in the bill for sure . Its such a chaotic mess of pieces of this and pieces of that ..one thing for sure its 3 trillion dollars worth of cash out of our children's economy and into the Washington black hole. (That's just the first couple of years)

Good job Dem's ..... real creative .



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 30
Reply 16, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3685 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 12):
If you REALLY believe anything any political party does is BRILLIANT, you have a huge problem, right there. The GOP plan wants to protect their interests-which are the insurance companies (by not letting them get sued), and business, and it wouldn't do squat for anyone else.

Once again Falcon you prove how narrow minded you really are. I suppose if the GOP's plan had a big D plastered all over it you'd be all over it like white on rice saying how its the greatest thing ever. Let me know how all that "free" healthcare works out for ya when we're paying out the ass in taxes to pay for it. Let me give you a little example, here in Massachusetts, which, as im sure you know, has GOVERNMENT MANDATED health insurance. Because of this and over spending by out DEMOCRAT governor, we are now facing a 3 billion dollar deficit next year, not to mention my private health insurance costs doubling. Sound familiar? Whats even funnier, is our governor is buddy buddy with our President. Its like watching a bad movie.



Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3676 times:



Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 16):
Once again Falcon you prove how narrow minded you really are. I suppose if the GOP's plan had a big D plastered all over it you'd be all over it like white on rice saying how its the greatest thing ever. Let me know how all that "free" healthcare works out for ya when we're paying out the ass in taxes to pay for it. Let me give you a little example, here in Massachusetts, which, as im sure you know, has GOVERNMENT MANDATED health insurance. Because of this and over spending by out DEMOCRAT governor, we are now facing a 3 billion dollar deficit next year, not to mention my private health insurance costs doubling. Sound familiar? Whats even funnier, is our governor is buddy buddy with our President. Its like watching a bad movie.

Smoke and mirrors. Now what is even worse is the small businessman. Who doesn't list his company as a corp and files as a single guy will get killed in taxes. Now he lays people off and takes away health care he would have given his employees. When what the Dems should have done is forced big and small businesses to hire and give medical by huge tax holidays and breaks. All because they need to thump their chest and say "look we did something the GOP couldn't" I am sure glad the GOP never did anythng like this. It's a joke.


User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 9044 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3671 times:



Quoting Moose135 (Reply 6):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
Wrong. They have their own proposal, which the Dems have ensured never sees the floor of the House.

And yet, when we had a Republican President, and Republican majorities in both the House and Senate, they chose not to put forward that plan. Can you tell my why that was?

That is the billion dollar question that the Republicans cannot answer, they are hypocrites of the worst kind, the Democrats are just as bad at times. At least we have a shot at some reform. As I said earlier, if it is so bad, why would the Democrats be that stupid as to guarantee defeat at the polls. Maybe, just maybe it will help, who knows, let us stop bitching and see what our esteemed congress does, that is Democracy in action, take your lumps and try to do something better to win the next election. I keep thinking of the Republican Contract with America. ??????????



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3671 times:



Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 16):

We'll see how it shakes out in a few years, dude. And if if does work, and things get better, then what will you say?

As for me, I'm not worried about my health insurance. I'm really not. I think the righties in this country have just been so busy trying to scare the rest of the nation into trying to be against health insurance reform, that, in the process, they actually started to believe all the hooey they were pandering. I see you've bought into it.

Again, the GOP didn't want to change anything-it's easy, Charles, to put out a "plan" you know won't pass, as the GOP did. But they had the chance to push for it earlier this decade, but it wasn't important to them.


User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 9044 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3659 times:



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 17):

Smoke and mirrors. Now what is even worse is the small businessman. Who doesn't list his company as a corp and files as a single guy will get killed in taxes. Now he lays people off and takes away health care he would have given his employees. When what the Dems should have done is forced big and small businesses to hire and give medical by huge tax holidays and breaks. All because they need to thump their chest and say "look we did something the GOP couldn't" I am sure glad the GOP never did anythng like this. It's a joke.



My goodness, if we keep cutting taxes and giving tax breaks to business and the wealthy, who will pay all the taxes? I think we know who will, if there are any jobs to work and pay taxes with. Maybe we can levy a tax on Chinese workers who benefit the most from our illustrious business leaders and who also benefit from tax breaks. They do tend to be wealthy.  Sad



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21677 posts, RR: 55
Reply 21, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3649 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 19):
it's easy, Charles, to put out a "plan" you know won't pass, as the GOP did.

More than that, it's easy to tout a plan that you know isn't going to have to go through the whole Congressional process, where it's going to be amended and changed considerably. I wonder how the GOP bill would look if it had to go through all the stuff that the Democrat bill did.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineAvObserver From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 2472 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3628 times:

Yes, the GOP dropped the ball on reform when they had power but this is no true reform, either. Without tort reform in the process and a virtual lockout of the GOP in the planning, this is partisan politics at its worst. Sure, Republicans were as arrogant when they had the helm but is that an excuse for Democrats to irresponsibly shove this down our collective throats, especially when polls show most of the public doesn't want it? The mad rush to throw any sort of bill together to make the holiday recess is blatantly irresponsible, particularly when the leadership of both houses gives the members hardly any time to read the final bills before a vote. The outrage of surely extending coverage to illegal immigrants at taxpayer expense, given Democrats voted against citizenship verification amendments, will be foisted on taxpayers who've already suffered far too much damage from the illegal invasion of America. This and the certainly unconstitutional mandate to buy healthcare coverage or face big fines and/or jailtime are the cappers for what is not true reform but a virtual takeover of the healthcare industry.

We need healthcare reform but we don't need this. The Democrats ignored the wishes of most constituents and plowed ahead with their agenda. This indeed will cost them bigtime at the polls next fall, though I doubt Pelosi and Reid care since it will be extremely hard for the GOP to undo this mess even if it can regain control of Congress. And the so-called "bluedog conservative" Democrats proved they were really yellowdogs, knuckling under as soon as the leadership met their "price" with the appropriate bribe to get them onboard. This is dirtbag government again, no less reprehensible than when Dubya and the GOP steamrolled over Dem objections to his policies. If this is "the most ethical" Congress Pelosi promised back in '06, I'd be happy to take back an older one in its place. If this is the "Change You Can Believe In", Obama promised in his campaign, then believe us citizens will be subjugated to a Socialist agenda like we've never before seen in this country. And this is only the beginning, since Democrats are about to spring the next big Amnesty push for illegal aliens on us. Falcon, even if you will defend the Healthcare bill on most levels, can you say you're onboard with that next plan?


User currently onlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11418 posts, RR: 52
Reply 23, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3614 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 11):
But then the Dems gon't give a sh%t about the Constitution anyway...

Dude, get off your holier than thou kick on this one. You as a Republican have absolutely no standing to say that the other side doesn't care about the constitution.

Your other points are fine for intellectual debate, but this one strains credulity.



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User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8633 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3615 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):

Cost of the GOP plan - virtually Zero.

To me, the most exciting part of health reform is the opportunity to slash costs by a HUGE percentage overall. It would mean we can take more vacations, spend more time with family, or have more money. Instead of the medical and pharma-masters stealing 30%, 40% and finally over 50% of our money.

The Democrats are going in the wrong direction on this. They are spending even more money, when money was the whole problem. Otherwise our medical system is fine if you don't count unfair klepto-insurance nonsense and the overall cost of the larceny involved in hospitals and corporations, who literally feed off the dead and the dying.


25 Falcon84 : You have to pick the ball up first to drop it. They were too busy giving out tax cuts to the richest Americans while sending off many poor Americans
26 Ken777 : I think the Great Recession is sufficient to justify that sound byte. No telling what the voters will do, but I highly doubt that the Republicans wil
27 Falcon84 : Killing Saddam was worth those trillions, don't you know that? But saving Americans who don't currently have health care? Those people aren't constit
28 Usair320 : It really is a good question. I read around 100 or so pages of both bills and the GOP bill seems to be the one aimed at lowering costs for all Americ
29 Cadet57 : It wont get better. I told you so. I'm sure you'll be singing a different tune when your premiums go up because you now have to also pay for all the
30 Moose135 : You are already paying for all the people who don't have insurance. If an uninsured person gets sick, rather than going to the doctor's office for ca
31 AGM100 : They wont.... the only highlight of this is that 30 million people will now have to buy "health insurance" . 30 million people added to the system ..
32 Cadet57 : typical response really. Look, I understand and accept these people go to the er. And I am all for providing people with a basic level of care. But a
33 AGM100 : No they will triple because its mandated to have insurance now..... I hope they did something in the bill to open the market up to competition for in
34 Falcon84 : Stop avoiding the qeustion, and just answer it. The fact is, you WANT it not to get better, don't you? You'd rather put your partisan rantings ahead
35 Seb146 : Unlike wiretapping and data mining, which are perfectly within the limits of the Constitution.... How? Because, according to the GOP, businesses are
36 Ken777 : That works as long as nothing happen to you that makes it impossible for you to take care of yourself or your family. Classic example was a friend wh
37 Usair320 : Don't you just get sick of their talking points? Instead of debating their point of view they repeat what Keith Olbermann and Rachel Maddow tell them
38 WarRI1 : The whole dam thing in a nutshell and why we cannot get anything done, both sides guilty. Anyone who does not realize and accept this as true are foo
39 DXing : Considering that a majority of Americans who are polled on the basics of this plan don't like it and think it costs too much, that is anything but as
40 WarRI1 : I would think that when this plan turns into a disaster, the Republicans ater winning the White House and congress in a landslide, which no doubt will
41 JBirdAV8r : First of all, I thought the way to do that was to get a better education, work harder, or get a better job. The times, they are a-changin', I guess..
42 QANTAS077 : not raising taxes to pay for two wars...priceless.
43 ThegreatRDU : The bill is nothing now.....
44 Post contains images Dreadnought : It still costs a bomb SEN. KENT CONRAD (D-ND): “Look, no legislation is perfect but this bill is a very significant advance to address health care
45 D L X : Nah, that stuff just makes you a liberal elitist.
46 Post contains links Yellowstone : The CBO says you're wrong--the current plan is not expected to increase premiums for most Americans. There's two factors at work here that mostly can
47 D L X : That is not what Conrad is saying. He said in 10 years, it will reduce the deficit by $130B. In 20, it will have reduced it by $1.3 Trillion. I'm not
48 Falcon84 : Talk about a pie in the sky scenario! That's based on a lot of "what if's", and also on the earnest hope from you, that it does fail. Will it solve a
49 Dreadnought : My mistake - I read his quote wrong. However That just makes what he says even more nonsense. If the GOP runs in 2010 and 2012 on a platform of repea
50 Falcon84 : Proves my point, Charles, that no matter what any Dem says, you'll bash it, no matter which side he comes down on an issue, or whether you read the d
51 Seb146 : I go back in history and state facts, but the right does not like it. Tough. It happend. Get over it. Someone else pointed out partisan politics and
52 Cadet57 : Just like you did from reply 1? There is a reason why I try to avoid these threads as much as possible, you stoop to name calling and personal attack
53 Falcon84 : Thanks for proving my point: political affiliation before country. No wonder, even with some of the problems the Dems are having right now, the natio
54 D L X : And if it turns out to be great? Then what will you say?
55 Falcon84 : They've refused to answer that one already. Their rote answer is "it won't". You see, if they for one second admit that it will work a lot better tha
56 Post contains links Yellowstone : The CBO's latest prediction is that the bill will shave $130 billion off the deficit by 2019. In the second ten years, it will save somewhere between
57 Cadet57 : Well, its hard to answer that, because, well it wont happen. I did answer. And my answer was it wont work. Answer me this, how do you expect us to pa
58 D L X : Riiight.. Cadet, that is not an answer. In fact, it's kind of childish. "What if it works?" "It won't." I'll ask again: what if it does? The question
59 Dreadnought : It's not childish. It's logical. The bill is not designed to work. There are to many glaring deficiencies in the bill, which the Dems have refused to
60 D L X : It is childish because it does not respond to the question that was actually asked. No one asked "do you think it will work." We know what you think.
61 Galapagapop : I don't think it'll work, but I guess that just means I put my party first. (which I belong to none) Let's look at a few well intentioned concepts pus
62 Falcon84 : Actually, you've refused to answer, at least twice, when given that question. It's what I said-putting party before the good of the nation. Simply yo
63 Usair320 : We'll see about that......... I know the mandate with subsidies has cost Mass. quite a bit of money. Conrad has been known to twist the truth from ti
64 Ken777 : Actually Republicans CUT taxes and then went to war. One, giong after terrorists, was a good opportunity while the other was a genuine phuck up, cost
65 Post contains images Falcon84 : Calling them out on this debate isn't hatred-it's simply stating fact. They want this bill to fail, and they want it to fail simply to help themselve
66 Dreadnought : If I'm wrong, I might become a Democrat. But from what I see, it is a bill DESIGNED to fail, and it was always meant to fail from the beginning. Barn
67 Falcon84 : Funny, I was thinking the same thing about conservatives, who's shameful actions (or non-actions in the Congress) seem to cry out the very same thing
68 D L X : In this case, he's quoting the CBO. That's a fair answer. Why would they do that?
69 Post contains links Yellowstone : Yes, Frank and many other Democrats (including yours truly) would like to see a single-payer system. However, we also realize that such a system is,
70 Usair320 : Thanks for clearing that up. Regardless of the cost, an induvidual mandate is unconstitutional. Nowhere is it in the constitution that government can
71 FlyMIA : Too bad this bill is coming to vote at 1am on a sunday night/monday morning. Only if most of America could watch the debate and see some of the truth
72 FlyMIA : So I am pretty sure this is the first time such a large important bill has passed by pure majority. Americans wont like this, it is horrible that some
73 NIKV69 : Oh please this bill is the biggest farce. The only way it would have been true reform is if it had a huge public option. After that went down they st
74 NorthstarBoy : In case anyone is interested, per CNN, the sentate voted to end debate on a 60-40 party line vote. that was as of 136 in the morning Monday. the dems
75 D L X : It's constitutional. Commerce Clause and Income Tax Amendment.
76 Post contains links Baroque : Oblique rather than off topic, Lucky Oceans (an American aka as Chris Gosfield, but resident in Perth WA) was on the Health Report today to remind us
77 DXing : The exact same thing could be said about democrats. They want a bill, any bill, even if it's a bad bill, so they can say their party did something. T
78 D L X : Long answer short, the commerce clause gives Congress plenary power to act on things that affect interstate commerce, health insurance unquestionably
79 Post contains links DXing : It gives Congress the right to regulate "activities", not to "force" businesses, or an individual, to operate in certain ways across State lines. Add
80 AGM100 : It is now mandated ...if you are a American and you breath you must buy insurance. That is not right , its playbook stuff for the leftists cracking t
81 KrisYYZ : All I can say is that I am glad that some sort of closures is approaching. Unfortunately a lot of people are disappointed, while I believe this bill w
82 AGM100 : Hahah Harry Reid ..... saying that in the time he is giving his speech that 2 Americans died because they didn't have insurance. What he failed to say
83 Ken777 : Simply not possible. It could easily have come during the day, but Republicans continued to delay as much as possible. The problem is that most Ameri
84 D L X : DXing, those two things are identical. Because the aggregate of your having or not having insurance coverage affects the finances of people or corpor
85 AGM100 : Its a choice ..you don't have to drive or own a car. Totally different .... totally. But I am sure the Dem's will figure out a way to mandate that I
86 FlyPNS1 : In most of America, you can't survive without a car, so your example doesn't really fly. And if conservatives had their way, there would be no mass t
87 Slider : And by jumping on board, I'm sure you meant to say he was bought like the whore he is. Outright bribery, the purchase of a vote for pork.
88 WarRI1 : Just in on CNN News, the AMA comes out in support of Senate Health Bill.
89 AGM100 : Yes it does . And of course that kind of thinking will eventually lead to the idea that the government should supply me with a car I guess. What abou
90 DXing : If I decide to operate my business soley in one State they are not identical. If I am a contractor in Houston who doesn't do any business outside of
91 KrisYYZ : Very well said. I don’t have the level of understanding of the problems of the American psyche that you do but I tend to think the same way. There
92 D L X : As well they should, considering they are the equivalent to a public utility. Government should regulate entities that have a position of such power
93 AGM100 : The world has passed us ? Please...... they have not and frankly are not even close. Some countries have wonderful system that work for the citizens.
94 D L X : Exactly what a jingoist would say.
95 Dreadnought : By your argument, it also affects the finances and well-being of persons in other states whether you buy GM car (employment, taxes on income, debt se
96 D L X : First off, it wasn't my argument. It's Supreme Court precedent over 50 years old (iinm). Second, the fact that Congress has the power to do it does n
97 Ken777 : I would be happy with that if it was at the core care level. Core care might, in the long run, result in 8 or 12 bed wards in hospitals for those wit
98 Dreadnought : It's still wrong. Personally I think the whole Common Law concept of paying attention to precedent, and then pushing it a little further every time i
99 FlyPNS1 : Using this logic, I guess people shouldn't be forced to abide by any laws or rules. If your neighbor steals from you, you will be responsible for get
100 D L X : Legally, it's 100% correct. And there's really not anything either of us can do about it. Then you should move to France. No, you're being absurd. I
101 D L X : I actually strongly object to this. Most people living in Manhattan do not own cars and/or live their lives without one more or less. Hell, I live in
102 FlyPNS1 : However, you and the people in Manhattan are utilizing mass transit which is subsidized by a combination of federal/state/local government. Without s
103 WarRI1 : Democratic Senator Whitehouse of R.I. I quote, Republicans are embarked on a no-holds barred mission of propaganda, obstruction and fear. There will b
104 D L X : That has absolutely nothing to do with compulsory insurance for driving a car.
105 Okie : Small companies have been waiting for this to pass. This year all employee's will get pink slips instead of a bonus for Christmas. Future employment w
106 WarRI1 : Ah! but the children can not be denied because of previous conditions, no being cut off because of reaching a certain amount paid out by insurance co
107 Ken777 : If you're a contractor in Houston you have a lot of interaction outside of the state, like it or not. And that doesn't even include your relationship
108 Okie : That will be the responsibility of the contractor as far as insurance goes and yeah the contractor will be paying additional taxes at a higher rate a
109 WarRI1 : I was thinking of the increased taxes for those making over 200 or 250k per year. In my book, they can afford it, especially the ones in the millions
110 WarRI1 : I heard that theory just tonight on the news.
111 Ken777 : Any employer who has that little loyalty to their employees has probably already dumped insurance benefits. And their employees are more than aware a
112 Okie : Trust me they will be working for far less than that. Whether they incorporate, or not is their business. If they prefer not to file quarterly taxes,
113 Post contains links Galapagapop : It's great you know that lovely, often trumpeted, statistic, but do you understand anything with regards to the reason it's so high, or are you borro
114 DXing : Nor is it a direct interaction with a company across a state line although that is not what the commerce clause was written to control. A company lik
115 Cws818 : Actually, expanded federal powers brought us the 13th Amendment, which prohibits slavery and involuntary servitude.
116 DXing : Unless that slavery is to the will of the federal government in the form of taxes and soon to be the absolute demand that health insurance be purchas
117 Cws818 : That's just a tad dramatic, don't you think?
118 Baroque : Yes well they definitely did not win 100% but alas they may not have lost 100% either. There is a complex set of rules about generics that may yet bi
119 D L X : It in no way has to be direct to be interstate commerce. All it does is have to have an effect on interstate commerce. And if your supplies come from
120 Dreadnought : It may be the law, as interpreted by justices who were motivated to give as much leeway as possible to federal powers. But that still does not make i
121 Post contains links D L X : The Supreme Court is the most steadfastly conservative body of our government, and has been so nearly as long as its existence. Instead of carping on
122 AGM100 : So the Dem's are auguring that it is OK , that Nebraska be relieved of paying the bills ....in order to secure the vote from their Senator. Other Stat
123 Post contains links DXing : Nope, there are degrees of difference but more an more the average citizen is being enslaved by an overbearing federal government. Certainly not the
124 Mayor : I think the real truth is that the Dems didn't want any bipartisan help on this one from the start. They knew they probably had all the support they
125 Post contains links D L X : Google Scholar has free legal searches. Start with this one: Wikard v. Filburn. http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=17396018701671434685 Dude
126 DXing : Dude, you can't buy insurance from BC/BS Kansas to cover you in Texas. What part of that simplicity escapes you? And the Supreme Court has reversed i
127 D L X : The question is not "can you buy BCBSA Kansas if you live in Texas. The question is "is BCBSA operating in interstate commerce. The answer is a VERY
128 Ken777 : It's still there, pointing to some very real problems we have. And, besides COST of health care, what other medical stat is there where the US is at
129 Cws818 : Illegal wiretaps are something to protest. Neither wiretaps nor a new addition to the tax code in any way constitute enslavement. I still don't see h
130 Falcon84 : You are correct, but conservatives HAVE to believe that it DOES make us more like those totalitarian entities, because it makes people scared, and, a
131 Galapagapop : Are you thick headed? Did you not read my post? It's a problem, but it's one completely independent whether we adopt health care reform or not. What
132 DXing : If that were true there wouldn't be 39 seperate companies. There would be one. I'm sure some said that after the Dread Scott decision was well. LIber
133 D L X : DXing, let me be as clear as possible: THERE IS ONE COMPANY. The 39 companies you talk about are subsidiaries. They have ONE headquarters. They have
134 Ken777 : That's where we disagree. There are far too many people who have been excluded from health care and this does have consequences, including lower medi
135 AGM100 : Its wealth distribution .... now you can call it anything you want but that is what it comes down too. Taking form me to help you.... its the central
136 Galapagapop : Again your missed the ENTIRE POINT! It's OUR PROBLEM! This is caused by a culture of instant gratification without consideration of long term effects
137 Post contains links DXing : While it is not an exact comaparison since Blue Cross Blue Shield companies are franchises, it is like saying there is "one" McDonalds. Let's try aga
138 Post contains links AGM100 : Idiot of the year award has too go to Harry Reid .... check this out ....he actually mistakenly voted no for the bill this morning .!! Hold on there's
139 NIKV69 : He is gone after this November so he isn't really relevent. Pelosi has been pulling his strings. Only reason she backed off was that she knows no bil
140 D L X : Wait... you JUST said the truth hurts. Now you're saying it doesn't hurt... so aren't you really saying that wasn't the truth? You're going around in
141 Post contains links DXing : Some people are immune to the truth, usually the self centered ones. You first say if there was anything remotely un-Constitutional about the bill Or
142 Post contains links WarRI1 : http://www.projo.com/news/content/Re..._12-24-09_CEGT5RI_v10.3a623ec.html This says it all, the hypocracy of the other side is mind numbing to me. Dea
143 Cws818 : And once again Jim Bunning was nowhere to be found. Maybe it was happy hour.
144 Ken777 : Sure. Is that according to Rush? Sure sounds like like the fat boy to me. Bull. No other developed nation has the excessive costs burdens on the indi
145 Galapagapop : Maybe I shouldn't have put it so blandly, but many of the statistics that show the issues with our nation's health are in many ways unique to our sed
146 DXing : Then the democrats shouldn't have any problem getting a Constitutional amendment passes that says that health care is a right that should be provided
147 Post contains links DXing : There are evidently more than a few State AG's who feel the law will be ripe for review as well. http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1209/30949.html
148 Yellowstone : That article only mentions that some A's G have raised questions about the special treatment of Nebraska that was required to get Nelson's vote. They
149 DXing : From the first sentence of the article. "On the eve of an historic Senate health care reform vote, more than half of the Republican state attorneys g
150 Ken777 : Exactly why I prefer a modified version of the Aussie system. There is something extraordinarily queer about our system where insurance companies can
151 Seb146 : If you actually read the first line you quoted, it only talks about ONE provision in the Senate bill. It says nothing about the bill as a whole. And,
152 EMBQA : If it's such a great deal and really needed why were so many votes bought then.........?????? Not really, it's the other way around... by a far far n
153 DXing : Which won't change the Constitutionality of the law one wit. If they write off the mandate it invalidates one of the greatest intents of the entire b
154 Post contains images Dreadnought : Merry Christmas, y'all
155 Post contains links DXing : If even one provision of the bill is ruled Unconstitutional then the whole bill falls into financial jeopardy, that's how badly cobbled together it i
156 Seb146 : Yet, when people were talking about the huge deficit Bush and company were racking up, the ones against that spending were all terrorists or anti-Ame
157 Ken777 : WHy no Democrat AGs? That one is obvious. A legal analysis or a political analysis. It's all about politics right now, Called P-O-R-K. Goes to every
158 DXing : Yes I read your post. Perhaps you have not looked at the financing for the bill, as well as the sweet heart deals it took to get the fine Senator fro
159 Post contains links Dreadnought : Oh stop it. You are comparing a hand grenade with a JDAM. Both nasty, but one a hell of a lot nastier. The fact of the matter is that the last fiscal
160 Ken777 : One part culled "might" mean that the Congress will need to look at options. like increasing the top tier tax rate (sounds good) or pulling out the p
161 DXing : Perhaps you need to catch up with the latest plan. The top tax rate is already going up on those that make more than 250K a year. The public option i
162 Ken777 : It's going to take YEARS to correct the phuch-ups of the previous administration. At least you're admitting the mistakes - that's step one. The only
163 Dreadnought : You can try to deflect as much as you like. But as much as you do, the fact of the matter is this - in the periods when the Republicans had control o
164 Cws818 : So what you are actually saying while doing your best to avoid saying it is that Bill Clinton, a Democrat, was President.
165 DXing : If you've read any of my posts then you know I've been critical of the GOP Congressional leaership and President Bush on financial matters since 2000
166 Dreadnought : It doesn't matter if PeeWee Herman was president. The House controls spending and taxation.
167 Seb146 : But, the whole "terrorists are everywhere" and "you are either with us or against us" and all of that was acceptable? Where are the WMDs again? When,
168 Ken777 : And now, more than ever, the Democrats are having to clean up the mess left by sloppy Republicans. War in Iraq. FInancial sector meltdown. Health car
169 AGM100 : Horrors ?? Ya , right very few know what horror is my friend ..... very very few Americans know . If you think that last 8 years was horror your nuts
170 Baroque : WADR respect Ken, I am not sure that will be possible, those particular parts are already in the firm grasp of the insurance companies are they not?
171 Post contains links DXing : Given the situation at Ft. Hood and yesterday in Detroit, yes, it was acceptable. Still telling yourself that lie eh? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Un
172 WarRI1 : Yes, until the unthinkable happens and then it can be bankrupcy for even the best planner.
173 Galapagapop : Who initiated trying to more people into homes? Who aided in removing barriers to home ownership like credit checks and down payments? They were demo
174 Ken777 : Before you drop a lot of money ensure that the companies are currently paying 80% of premium dollars into health care. Might be an unpleasant surpris
175 WarRI1 : Your age and wisdom do not impress, your insults to a fellow member do.
176 Seb146 : So, even though there were a couple of votes in Florida that, suppoedly, Bush's brother had his cronies find, I find it interesting that, in the same
177 AGM100 : Its a very very small part of the insurance companies worries. Its been proven that medicaid drops more people and denies coverage more often than pr
178 Post contains links and images Dreadnought : Oh no, no this shit again... http://www.pbs.org/newshour/media/me..._watch/jan-june01/recount_4-3.html It's a matter of scale - When Bush was preside
179 WarRI1 : There is a line from a song by Alabama, (Country and Western)( Song of the South) It goes something like this "My Father got a job with the TVA, he b
180 Galapagapop : It's more a generalization for the many on here who seem to have their fingers in their ears. Many of these points have been discussed at nauseum. To
181 DXing : And I could step off the curb tomorrow and get hit by a bus. There is only so much you can plan for, the rest you take as it comes. Unfortunately lib
182 Ken777 : And who let the mortgage and financial sectors turn it into a short term pot of gold? See-No-Evil conservatives who were lapping up the profits. Ther
183 Ken777 : As long as the government ensures that FICA keeps up with growth then SS & Medicare will be paying their way. And after both sides using the SS surpl
184 DXing : Which would turn into an unaccetable level of amount of tax in the next 10-20 years. That does not even begin to address the IOU's the government has
185 Seb146 : Yet (and this is my point) when Republicans were in control and anyone tried to put any of that on them, we were all told "Oh, it's okay because they
186 DXing : On matters of national security and international relations, this legislation deals with domestic policy. Again, HSA's were passed into law in 2003.
187 Ken777 : The current tax level is low enough for adjustments, especially if we shift to a public option and a chunk of private insurance premiums are shifted
188 AGM100 : Sorry posted that up for those who still have hope that our neighbor's will not have to pay for our health care when we "retire". Ya the dwindling fe
189 WarRI1 : I worked hard all my life, I saved all my life, I paid taxes all my working life. Every dime of my retirement income is still taxed. I was very lucky
190 Ken777 : Is the government not paying for a non-covered treatment any different than an insurance company not paying for a non-covered treatment? Nope. When t
191 D L X : THen I guess you don't want insurance at all. Because after all, that's EXACTLY what insurance is. You do realize that, right?
192 DXing : Maybe low enough for you but still too high for me. President Johnson Defense spending comes in a distant third to social program and interest paymen
193 Post contains links Yellowstone : Incorrect. Medicare/Medicaid form 23 percent of the federal budget, and Social Security is another 21 percent. Defense spending is tied with Social S
194 Ken777 : But you're a conservative. Anything less than a refund is too high. You need to remember that I was in the Navy - and I love carriers. Actually I was
195 DXing : Not less than half when you take out the budget gimmick in place to hide the true cost even if you include the 188 billion in supplemental spending f
196 AGM100 : Yes but it is a pool of people who have elected to purchase the plan , understand the limits constraints and advantages. I don't worry that people in
197 Post contains links Slider : Aha! The truth is starting to come out. I suppose you had to be drunk to pass this health care bill. Montana tyrant, er, Senator, Max Baucus, inebriat
198 AGM100 : Ya he was drunk no doubt about it. What Mr. Baucus failed to mention is that they simply wanted to pass that 2000 page bill in August that they pulle
199 D L X : Ohhh! So when you say you don't want to "rely [on] my fellow citizens too pay my way," you actually mean you don't want to rely on your fellow citize
200 DXing : There is a difference between "services" and "cost". Services will suffer if 12-20 million people are dumped into the system, 30-50 million if you be
201 AGM100 : So stop treating them...it wont be long until people figure it out. Or send them a bill for it , and make them pay it off . They will learn that they
202 D L X : F***ing barbaric. Sounds like someone eats his cereal with a silver spoon. Source?
203 AGM100 : Do you believe that we will not have to buy insurance under the new bill ? They are going to have to put teeth into that mandate ... otherwise no one
204 D L X : You mean like eugenics? I want you to produce a source that Dems will JAIL people who do not buy insurance. That was your claim. That may be true, an
205 AGM100 : Not sure what that is ... I assume its some type of Darwinist survival of the fittest plan ? Don't look at it in the short term ...look at it over ti
206 D L X : It's pretty hard to get thrown in jail for not following the tax code. Because I think you purposely exaggerated to stir the pot. F***ing barbaric.
207 AGM100 : If you do not believe that a cost cutting apparatus will be instituted then you are living in dream land/. They will decide in the end what they are
208 D L X : If you're willing to let people die when they show up at the ER so as to "prove a point" then you're barbaric to Christians, and probably most other
209 AGM100 : Did I say that .... go to a emergency room . How many people in their do you think are actually going to die ? Not many . Most of the freebie riders
210 AGM100 : So sorry , my mistake.... not death panels ... "Health Care Cost Advisory Panels " (or HCCAP''s).... You caught me .. I lied. Palin speaks of a scenar
211 Ken777 : I've no doubt that we can cut troops in Europe and probably should - to some degree. In Japan I would have to see the loss of the Navy bases there as
212 AGM100 : True ...and the real force behind the DNC and the progressives are lawyers ... every one of them is a lawyers..and the cause of great destruction to
213 Cws818 : How do you know? Are you a doctor? If not, how are you qualified to determine what is a medical emergency? Actually, that's called Medicaid.
214 Ken777 : And you never had private health insurance. Why do you think doctors have to call 1-800-MOMMIE-MAY-I to get permission from your insurance company to
215 DXing : It has already been shown that there are not enough doctors in private practice to handle the additional load without lowering service overall. Most
216 AGM100 : If you do not see a scenario of a case where the HCCAP could decide its cheaper to abort a handicapped child than to pay for its life long health-car
217 Ken777 : Doctor's time has been a challenge as long as I can remember. Long hours in med school, residencies and then in practice. Out of the Vietnam war came
218 DXing : So you think it's going to get better? To bad Congress doesn't think so, it got voted down. No one is arguing who the President is. What the polls ha
219 Ken777 : "Scrap it and start over"? That's a mantra for the Republicans, same as calls for Tort Reform. The Republicans had their opportunities. They didn't d
220 Post contains links DXing : We all saw how many sweet heart deals and changes to the legislation (dropping any sort of public option, abortion language, etc) it took just to get
221 Seb146 : Wow. A blanket statement in response to my specific statement. Way to try to turn things around. Typical of the Republicans. When in doubt, blame the
222 Post contains links DXing : ??????? Would you care to try and explain what is "specific" in that statement? As stated above, how many sweet heart deals, financing of the legisla
223 Ken777 : Only because the Republicans were playing Waterloo with health care. But the Democrat battles do show that Democrats don't march in lock step like th
224 DXing : The republicans didn't matter since the democrats had 60 votes. Yet in order to get those 60 votes how many sweet heart deals had to be made? Public
225 Ken777 : Look carefully at the source - a committee that was looking at the date since the Bush/Cheney years. No wonder they came out against spending money o
226 Post contains links DXing : You're blaming their conclusion on the Bush administration? Even though the committee's recomendations came out long after the Bush administration ha
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