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This Whole Israel Thing  
User currently offlineUal747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (11 years 12 months 23 hours ago) and read 1124 times:

Honestly, I can't quite come to grasps on why the US gives 2 cents about Israel and why the Arab world always gets themselves in an uproar over Palestinians.

Israel offers NO economic benefit to the United States, and it in fact causes economic turmoil between the US and other Arab states. However, the US still manages to pump out billions into the Israeli economy, despite the current conflicts.

The Arab states on the other hand condem Israel and don't even flinch when a palestinian suicide bomber blows himself up and kills innocent civilians.

Also, another fault of the Arab states, as well as Israel, is their mix of politics and religion. For centuries religion has cause countless numbers of innocent people to perish in the hell of war.

I guess I just can't understand why the whole world gets in such an uproar over Israel and Palestine. Israel and Palestine offer no benefit for either sides. Now, Im not saying what is going on there isn't horrible, it indeed is terrible. Both the palestinians and israelis should be ashamed of how they are destroying their country and the people within.

UAL747



50 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineUal747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (11 years 12 months 23 hours ago) and read 1052 times:

It's just amazing how easy this topic gets people on one side or the other. If the current situation was going on in some African country, I bet it wouldn't even cross our minds.

UAL747


User currently offlineRogueTrader From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (11 years 12 months 23 hours ago) and read 1043 times:

I can't quite come to grasps on why the US gives 2 cents about Israel

Because its supporters pay for a lobby group to give much more than 2 cents about and to Israel. Most Americans think that the US should take no sides in the conflict, but are ignored by their government.

Israel is a small country that relies on the US for its very survival, but the US gets nothing in return. In fact, Israel

posts sizable current account deficits, which are covered by large transfer payments from abroad and by foreign loans. Roughly half of the government's external debt is owed to the US, which is its major source of economic and military aid.

source:http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/

END US SUPPORT OF ISRAEL

kind regards,

RougeTrader

note: there is never a copyright to original US government printed information


User currently offlineArsenal@LHR From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 7792 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (11 years 12 months 21 hours ago) and read 1012 times:
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Man! I think the same thing about this issue everyday like Ual747 has mentioned.




In Arsene we trust!!
User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11151 posts, RR: 59
Reply 4, posted (11 years 12 months 15 hours ago) and read 995 times:

Ual747,

You are a wise person. I wish more could hear what you said.

However, you need to consider one thing.

You mentioned this:
The Arab states on the other hand condem Israel and don't even flinch when a palestinian suicide bomber blows himself up and kills innocent civilians.

I think violence of ANY kind is just wrong. Killing innocent civilians on either side is never right in any case.

However, have you ever sat down and asked this question "Why are Palestinian suicide bombers blowing themselves up and killing innocent civilians?"

The answer is simple, anger, frustration. For 60 years they've been under oppression and they just can't take it anymore. They've wanted freedom but they haven't gotten it yet. So what do they do? They express there anger in one explosive amount of force by strapping bombs to themselves and killing innocent civilians.

This Israeli attack on Palestinian land is just going to create more Suicide bombers and more hate which will then lead to more killing on BOTH sides.

If more Americans ask this question, it would most definately help out the Israeli-Palestinian issue. The key role that we should do as Americans is ask questions, and THEN try to find a solution. Not just assume "Oh, the Palestinians are evil and blow up Israelis just for the heck of it".

The best thing the US should do is end it's support toward Israel. Then it can either chose to help out the issue by NOT joining sides. Or just stay out of it completely, and let it resolve itself.

As for me, I hate violence PERIOD. We live in a very sad world.......

Regards



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (11 years 12 months 14 hours ago) and read 979 times:

BA,

I think violence of ANY kind is just wrong.

Don't be absurd. Laying out such unadulterated high-minded idealistic principles in such a way shows the same lack of a thought process that a Suicide Bomber, or other "righteous warrior" goes through.

So what you are saying is that when Hitler started WWII, the rest of the world should have just laid down and allowed themselves to be taken over? In front of Japan's advancing armies in China, should we have tryed to stopped them by English Bobby police tactics? You know, "Stop! Or I'll tell you to stop again!", followed by the sound of his body getting shreded by tank treads.

A bad guy breaks into your home. He binds you up, and begins to rape your daughter. Fortunately he was never a boy scout and you slip out of your bonds. What do you do? Wait 'till he's finished and gone? Or do you put a dent in his head?

Violence is extreme action, the final option available to civilized people after all others become ineffective. And unfortunately, not all peoples in the world are civilized, and bring out the violence card early.

Violence can be entirely justified to serve the common good, and therefore should not be the subject of silly statements like "I think violence of ANY kind is just wrong." It is the worst kind of pseudo-populist hippy tripe. Understand something before you critisize.

Charles


User currently offlineDavid B. From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3148 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (11 years 12 months 13 hours ago) and read 968 times:

So..........muslim extreamists use violence to get back at America. Are you saying that that was justified? Your logic is totally absurd.


Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (11 years 12 months 13 hours ago) and read 963 times:

So the US don´t benefit from Israeli inventions? Shall
I mention ICQ, drip-irrigation, all the aviation/weapon
technologies jointly developed by Israel/US and other
high-tech inventions.
If the Arabs have benefitted from the Palestinians? Well,
ask them, but I don´t think so....


User currently offlineAio86 From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 928 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (11 years 12 months 13 hours ago) and read 962 times:

Where do I start...

Israel is important to the United States because it is the one true democracy in the Middle East. What's that quote the US is always using, they're fighting in the name of democracy, they're the arsenal of democracy or something like that. All of the surrounding nations, although I'm not saying are bad or corrupt (while many definately are), are at least partial monarchies. A king or sheik is in charge of the country.
On a related issue, after conquering the Gaza and West Bank in 1967, the reason they weren't annexed to Israel proper like the Golan Heights was because if they inherited all of the Palestinians from the state, due to their true democracy, they would have to give the Palestinians the right to vote. This would mean there would be more Arab voters than Jewish ones, lest leading to an Arab government in Israel and pretty much the end of the Jewish state.

The US uses Israel for: Intelegence, military aircraft modificiation, machine guns for its military (Uzi) and if it were necesary Israel would allow the US use of its bases. Also remember those nuclear reactors in Iraq where they were developing nukes, the US, NATO etc. didn't perform the highly riskie sortie to bomb it, Israel did.

For those that say just have Israel move out of the West Bank, troops, settlements, the whole nine yards, and say there becomes a state of Palestine. The state of Palestine is independent with its own army, Israel unable to deny it weapons from other countries etc. What would happen? Would the bombings stop? In my, and many's opinion, no. The Palestinians hate Israel and it often seems they are more interested in the destruction of the Jewish state rather than the formation of the Palestinian state.

Now there are also the Palestinian people. They are considered the lowest form of the Arab people. They are refuges, and a different sect of Arabs. The Egyptians didn't want them. Israel tried giving the Gaza strip back to Egypt in the same peace treaty where it gave Egypt back the Sinai, yet Egypt refused because of the fact there were close to a million Palestinians there. Jordan was sick of the refuge problem and in case Black September doesn't ring a bell to anyone, the Jordanian army killed something like 10,000 of them in one month in some refuge camp that was giving them trouble. Compared to that, how agressive does Israel seem?

Another important aspect. What training does Arafat have as a leader? None certainly in any government position. He's been the leader of different terrorist groups all his life. His most powerful diplomats and governors are his terrorist comrades. If a nation independent under Arafat arises, how would he deal with a problem? What do you think?

I agree that it is awful what is happening there, and I hope that things get resolved quickly. I also hope that I've begun to change some of your minds that Israel is important to the US (and obviously) vice versa.

-aio86


User currently offlineRyanb741 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 3221 posts, RR: 16
Reply 9, posted (11 years 12 months 12 hours ago) and read 958 times:

Aio86

Israel isn't a true democracy. In the last report issued by Amnesty International, the findings were that Israel has a similar human rights status as Iraq!

Also, you say giving the Palestinians back their land would lead to the end of a Jewish state. And just why is that so bad exactly? Why should we care what religion a particular country is anyway? The land belongs to its rightful owners irrespective of religion, class or colour.



I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
User currently offlineLY772 From Israel, joined Aug 2001, 1340 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (11 years 12 months 12 hours ago) and read 956 times:

BA: What you are saying is bullshit. This is what you are saying: Israel should not respond to Palestinian Suicide bombers, right? Because they are "justified"? What about America? They had an attack on civilians and they are now IN A WAR and not one person says, "but the Americans provoke it by supporting Israel or by invading Iraq or whatever"...

You are saying that Israel is not fair responding to Palestinians, but the American WAR is justified.


User currently offlinePacificjourney From New Zealand, joined Jul 2001, 2727 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (11 years 12 months 8 hours ago) and read 932 times:

I get a bit tired of the claim that Israel is the only democracy in the ME and therefore the US must support them.

The reality is that the US does not really want Saudi, Egypt, Kuwait et al to become true democracies as they may not like the democratic decisions those countries then make, namely to no longer be suppine providers of oil and buyers of US weapons. The current state of affairs re. absolute monarchies such as Saudi Arabia suits the US just fine and any statements regarding a desire for democracy in these countries are total bullshit.

Clearly a case of being careful what you wish for because you might just get it !



" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
User currently offlineAvi From Israel, joined Sep 2001, 935 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (11 years 12 months 7 hours ago) and read 927 times:

The answer is simple, anger, frustration. For 60 years they've been under oppression and they just can't take it anymore.

BA,

You are forgetting that the Palestinians in the Gaza strip DON’T live under Israeli occupation for the past 9 years and the Palestinians in the West Bank for the past 7 to 8 years.

They are living under the PA authority rule.
How did it change their lives?

It DIDN’T. Nothing (good) has happened.
If nothing good came out of it, that means that things got worse and Israel has nothing to do with it.
They had great expectation but Arafat didn’t care about them. He was busy in traveling all over the world.
Now think again why were they frustrated.

the Jordanian army killed something like 10,000 of them in one month …

Aio86,
When Arabs are fighting Arabs its end quickly. It took them less than a week!





Long live the B747
User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11151 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (11 years 12 months 6 hours ago) and read 921 times:

LY772,

You really like putting words in my mouth, don't you?

Tell me, WHERE in my post did I say Palestinian suicide attacks are justified!

I never said anything close to that! Infact I'm the one who HATES any kind of violence on ANY people.

I am simply stating a fact that suicide bombers are created because they are angry, and frustrated and do not want to live ANY longer under Israeli oppression. So what do they do? They let out there anger in one explosive force by strapping bombs to themselves and killing innocent civilians.

Learn to READ before to attack someone's post....

Sheesh....

And Cfalk,

I don't like violence. Respect that! You can say that I am a pacifist. I don't like wars, I don't like killing. Now if you think that I am for peace and against killing of any kind is wrong, then you are just absurd.....



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11151 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (11 years 12 months 5 hours ago) and read 915 times:

Aio86,

Israel is important to the United States because it is the one true democracy in the Middle East.

No, Israel is not the one true democracy in the Middle East.

It's northern enemy, Lebanon is another democracy.

And if you consider Turkey part of the Middle East, then that is another democracy....

Regards



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (11 years 12 months ago) and read 900 times:

BA,

Infact I'm the one who HATES any kind of violence on ANY people.

Now that is a much more sensible statement. You can hate something, while recognizing that perhaps it was necessary, like the Hiroshima bomb or open-heart surgery. I respect that position, but that's not quite what you said earlier.

Charles


User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11151 posts, RR: 59
Reply 16, posted (11 years 12 months ago) and read 897 times:

Cfalk,

No problem, glad you understood what I meant.

I just hate killing period. I hate guns, I hate bombs, I hate grenades, I hate killing period. Doesn't matter who did it, I hate it all.

What I want is a world where everyone lives together in peace. To the point where there would be no need for weapons anymore to defend ourselves since there would be nothing to defend from.

This will never happen, I know. And it's quite sad that it won't happen.

Like I said, we live in a sad world.

We are the most violent creatures on earth.

Regards



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (11 years 12 months ago) and read 893 times:

Oh, and David B., I did not say that all violence is justified. It CAN be justified, particularly in response to a violent attack on you.

For instance, Considering the numerous and extensive complaints that the Palestinians have against the Israelis, it would be justified that they attack, by any means they can, Israeli military personel and installations, in order to make their point. They did have some success recently at this. However the specific targeting of civilians cannot be justified by any reasoning I can think of in a modern context. This is their biggest mistake.

Charles


User currently offlineAvi From Israel, joined Sep 2001, 935 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (11 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 883 times:

I am simply stating a fact that suicide bombers are created because they are angry, and frustrated and do not want to live ANY longer under Israeli oppression.

BA,

Again, you are wrong.
The suicide attacks began after Israel started to withdraw from the Gaza strip.
There were many suicide attacks parallel to Israel withdrawal from the West Bank cities.
They saw the occupation ending and still they tried to stop Israel withdrawal (I guess Hamas knew that living under the PA authority will be worse than living under Israel control  Smile ).

The suicide attacks has nothing to do with anger or occupation only with the desire to kill Israelis.

The PA got land from Israel only when they talked with Israel not when they attacked it.
When you attack, expect retaliation.

It's northern enemy, Lebanon is another democracy.

And if you consider Turkey part of the Middle East, then that is another democracy....


Yes, Turkey is a democracy state but not an Arabic state as the rest of the countries in the Middle East except Israel and Cyprus (which are not even a Moslem countries).

Lebanon is a democracy?
That was a very good joke. One of the best I ever heard.
Lebanon is not even a state, it’s an office in Damascus.
What ever will be in Lebanon is determined in Syria.
There is no doubt in my mind that if it was the Lebanon president decision, the Lebanese army was going south to the Israeli border and keep it quiet and don’t let Hizbulla the possibility to attack Israel almost every day. But Syria doesn’t let him. Some democracy.

BTW, in 1982 after the elected president announced that he is going to make peace with Israel as Egypt did, he was murdered by Syria few weeks later.




Long live the B747
User currently offlineAirafrique From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 139 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (11 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 876 times:

"If the current situation was going on in some African country, I bet it wouldn't even cross our minds."

You're right Ual747, Thousant of people are dying every day in Congo. Nobody care.......  Pissed

The Isreal/Palestine problem has a solution:

The whole world should impose a peace process. Jerusalem will be a international City own by everybody and under the rule of the UN. No waypon will be admited in that city.

Create un Palestine State, Israel is already a State.

We are tired of that 2000 years old issues.





User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11151 posts, RR: 59
Reply 20, posted (11 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 868 times:

Avi,

No you are wrong again. The Palestinians have been at war with the Israeli's since the CREATION of Israel.

Don't make it sound like it's something new because it isn't!

The suicide attacks has nothing to do with anger or occupation only with the desire to kill Israelis.

LOL! That's the funniest thing I've ever heard in these forums so far.

Lebanon is a democracy?
That was a very good joke. One of the best I ever heard. Lebanon is not even a state, it’s an office in Damascus.
What ever will be in Lebanon is determined in Syria.


Wait wait wait, now that is even funnier. What you have said there is COMPLETELY false. Lebanon IS a country of it's own with it's own government. Lebanon and Syria have very close relations. They are allies. You must think France isn't even a country and is part of the United States then, I assume?

And yes, Lebanon IS indeed a democracy. Apparently you do not know what a democracy is. This is the definition of a democracy from Webster's dictionary: a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usu. involving periodically held free elections

Lebanon is a country that is run by it's people. Citizens elect representatives. Freedom of speech, freedom of press, freedom of religion, freedom to petition, freedom to criticise the government are all rights in Lebanon.



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11151 posts, RR: 59
Reply 21, posted (11 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 867 times:

Sorry let me be a bit more clear.

Syria has a lot of influence on the decisions that Lebanon makes because during the Lebanese Civil War, Syria came in and helped calm things down. As a result since then, they've had a lot of influence on what decisions Lebanon makes.

However, Lebanon is a country of it's own, with it's own president, prime minister, and a democratic government.



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineFSPilot747 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 3599 posts, RR: 13
Reply 22, posted (11 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 869 times:

Avi: are you trying to tell us that Israel infact IS a democracy? Israel is a self declared "jewish state." this right here counteracts the quality essential to a true democracy. For you to even argue that Lebanon isn't a democracy while seemigly claiming that israel IS is almost humorous, (almost).

Israel is a democracy for jews only. Just as the Apartheid was a democracy for europeans.

-FSP



User currently offlineArtsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4745 posts, RR: 35
Reply 23, posted (11 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 855 times:

Israel was actually declared a sovereign state by the UN in 1948. At more or less the same time, allocations were given to Jordan and to Syria also, but Yasser and crew rejected the land and deal that was allocated to them and have continued to fight ever since. As for the claim that the Palestinians only started fighting Israel due to occupation, go back to your history books, and you may see that Yasser and Co were lobbing bombs into Israel 3 years before any occupied territories

Jeremy


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (11 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 843 times:

Avi,

The suicide attacks began after Israel started to withdraw from the Gaza strip.
There were many suicide attacks parallel to Israel withdrawal from the West Bank cities.
They saw the occupation ending and still they tried to stop Israel withdrawal (I guess Hamas knew that living under the PA authority will be worse than living under Israel control ).


Israel agreed to withdraw from the West Bank? Including all the settlements? Really? Where did you hear that one? I think you dreamt it.

Charles


25 Avi : BA and Cfalk, what is wrong with you? Can’t you read? BA, I didn’t say that the war with the PA started in 1993 (when Israel started to wi
26 Cfalk : Israel is either 1) occupying the West Bank, or 2) not occupying the West Bank. You cannot be half pregnant. The only way 2) above would be satisfied
27 Avi : Cfalk, Israel started to withdraw from the West Bank but didn’t finish it because the PA decided to blow the process up on September 2000 (the w
28 Eg777er : It may surprise some members to know that the majority of Arabs that I have met (and I have lived in the Middle East for over a decade), have no quarr
29 SEVEN_FIFTY7 : And that is precisely what I've always been wondering, EG777er. U.S. journalists and TV news media are notorious for misrepresenting civilian attitude
30 RogueTrader : I have to re-affirm my belief in SEVEN_FIFTY7's post and expand on it if I can. Americans are being told to believe that many Muslims and certainly mo
31 SAS23 : The time is right to take concerted global action against a neo-fascist state which is the source of much regional strife; which oppresses many of tho
32 Cfalk : The French Resistance - who were regarded by the British and Americans as allies and heroes - attacked the Nazis through guerrilla actions in exactly
33 LY744 : "Americans are being told to believe that many Muslims and certainly most Arabs hate America and Israel" And how many Arabs/Muslims/Palestinians do yo
34 Cfalk : Perfectly identical, except that they aren't trying to conquer more land for themselves, Not quite true. Israel does have a sizable and politically po
35 Post contains images LY744 : Their numbers are significant, but they are still a minority, and hopefuly the settlements will be removed soon. "During the Six Day War, Israeli airc
36 Artsyman : I am glad that Israel had weapons of mass destruction, because if they didn't have those as a deterant, I shudder at the consequences. I actually appl
37 Avi : During the Six Day War, Israeli aircraft were equipped with nuclear bombs and had the Syrians broken through Israeli lines as looked likely at one poi
38 Marco : Syria has a lot of influence on the decisions that Lebanon makes because during the Lebanese Civil War, Syria came in and helped calm things down. As
39 Heavymetal : Israel is important to the United States because it is the one true democracy in the Middle East. But it's NOT...that's the thing I think the supporte
40 ADG : Germany was a democracy during the WW2, Hitler was the elected representative of the majority. On a more recent I believe Milosovich was also an elect
41 Klaus : ADG: Germany was a democracy during the WW2, Hitler was the elected representative of the majority. Nonsense. A democracy implies that the people have
42 Post contains images BA : Marco, The Syrians helped to calm things down in Lebanon? are you serious? You expect people to take you seriously when you say things like that? BA p
43 Post contains images BA : Not only that Marco, but the Syrians were invited in to Lebanon. Sounds a lot like Iraq invading Kuwait, doesn't it?
44 RogueTrader : Nonsense. A democracy implies that the people have the choice of their representatives. And they didn´t, obviously, at that point. People always have
45 Yyz717 : People do not always have a choice in how they are governed. People born under a dictatorship are unlikely to be able to overturn that dictatorship. I
46 Alpha 1 : ADG, you were sort of right-Hitler did come to power LEGALLY, appointed to the Chancellor's post by a dying Von Hindenberg, but Germany was NOT a demo
47 Post contains images Marco : Lebanon invited Syria? Hah! The Lebanese Christians did not want Syria to invade. The only people who wanted Syria to invade were the shi'ite muslims
48 BA : Marco, I have been studying Lebanese history since my Elementary School years. I have several books in my room, and you have introduced to me some of
49 ADG : You do all realise that in a democracy most people aren't governed by who they would choose. No matter how many times I vote for Mickey Mouse, I still
50 Marco : BA, After the thread on Saudi Arabia I stopped taking you seriously, you have no clue about what's going on in the Middle East.
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