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Judge Dismisses Blackwater Case  
User currently offlineFridgmus From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1442 posts, RR: 11
Posted (4 years 8 months 20 hours ago) and read 1489 times:
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My first topic! Hope I'm doing this right.

Anyway, as a lot of us here thought might happen, the case against five Blackwater (now Xe Services) guards from the Nisoor Square incident in 2007 has been dismissed.

Apparently the prosecution made some very big mistakes and the judge dismissed the case.

Fair Use Excerpt,

A federal judge cited repeated government missteps in dismissing all charges against five Blackwater Worldwide security guards accused of killing unarmed Iraqi civilians in a case that inflamed anti-American sentiment abroad.

U.S. District Judge Ricardo Urbina dismissed the case against the guards accused of the shooting in a crowded Baghdad intersection in 2007.

Whole story:

http://www.military.com/news/article...es-blackwater-case.html?ESRC=eb.nl

Please keep this discussion civil when posting your thoughts OK?

Thanks,

F


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19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (4 years 8 months 20 hours ago) and read 1483 times:



Quoting Fridgmus (Thread starter):
My first topic! Hope I'm doing this right.

Well you picked a good topic to start. I will exit now.


User currently offlineDXing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (4 years 8 months 19 hours ago) and read 1478 times:

Bodes well for some future federal cases that are a "lock" doesn't it?

In this case it just goes to show that the legal system doesn't always work the way you think it will. I noticed the civil suit is still open so they still stand to lose a lot of income over the coming years. It didn't say in the story whether or not they can face charges in Iraq or whether the U.S. government would turn them over if asked either.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19568 posts, RR: 58
Reply 3, posted (4 years 8 months 17 hours ago) and read 1447 times:



Quoting DXing (Reply 2):


In this case it just goes to show that the legal system doesn't always work the way you think it will.

For everyone who was braying about how the terrorists were going to get off on a technicality, guess what...?


User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (4 years 8 months 17 hours ago) and read 1447 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
For everyone who was braying about how the terrorists were going to get off on a technicality, guess what...?

Yep. Such a great idea to try them in civilian court purely for political gain and appearance. Brillant. What this man does is so dangerous it's sickening.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19568 posts, RR: 58
Reply 5, posted (4 years 8 months 17 hours ago) and read 1437 times:



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 4):

Yep. Such a great idea to try them in civilian court purely for political gain and appearance. Brillant. What this man does is so dangerous it's sickening.

He did his job. Prosecutors need to be careful.


User currently offlineDXing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (4 years 8 months 17 hours ago) and read 1431 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
He did his job. Prosecutors need to be careful.

Agreed. If the prosecutors botched it that badly I'd rather see them go free rather than have a judge rubber stamp the proceedings. Since they never made to trial double jeopardy does not apply does it?


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (4 years 8 months 17 hours ago) and read 1424 times:



Quoting Fridgmus (Thread starter):
My first topic! Hope I'm doing this right.

Yep, but assuming your location is real and not a preference, not a good day for your safety. I hope that some sort of sanity prevails somewhere in this sorry saga.

AFAI can see, the only person not to have done anything wrong is the judge. I don't suppose he was amused.

BTW no longer Blackwater.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwater_Worldwide
Xe Services LLC (pronounced /ˈzi/), still usually referred to as "Blackwater", is a private military company founded as Blackwater USA in 1997 by Erik Prince and Al Clark.[2][3] Blackwater has a wide array of business divisions, subsidiaries, and spin-off corporations but the organization as a whole has courted much controversy

Which suggests a certain realism about what they did as a company.

Then again in Sept 2009

Blackwater (Xe) Security Firm Gets Iraq Contract Extended by State Dept.
http://norcaltruth.org/2009/09/02/bl...q-contract-extended-by-state-dept/

Plus ca change, plus ca meme chose.

One thing is certain, I doubt if the Iraqis are going to think they were innocent.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
He did his job. Prosecutors need to be careful.

 checkmark 


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8225 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (4 years 8 months 17 hours ago) and read 1421 times:



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 4):
Yep. Such a great idea to try them in civilian court purely for political gain and appearance.

Remember OJ?

The real issue is who gave the guys immunity?

As far as the judge goes, I'd go with his decision. May not be what he would like to do, but with the immunity on the table it was what he had a responsible to do.


User currently offlineTexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4276 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (4 years 8 months 16 hours ago) and read 1416 times:



Quoting DXing (Reply 6):
Since they never made to trial double jeopardy does not apply does it?

As the case often is in the law, it depends. I have not read the opinion so I can't say for sure what kind of motion was made, but if either a jury was empaneled or there was a final ruling on the merits, jeopardy could have attached. I'll look for the opinion and try to figure that part out later today or tomorrow.

The prosecution will probably appeal the judge's decision either way.

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (4 years 8 months 16 hours ago) and read 1411 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
He did his job. Prosecutors need to be careful.

I actually agree with you here on this one. They effed up big time. Judge did the right thing. Handled very poorly.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 8):
Remember OJ?

OJ won because the LAPD planted evidence to try to bolster the case and Henry Lee called them on it. This in addition to a masterful job by Johnie Cochran is why he wasn't convicted. Not even close to this.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26444 posts, RR: 75
Reply 11, posted (4 years 8 months 9 hours ago) and read 1349 times:



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):

OJ won because the LAPD planted evidence to try to bolster the case and Henry Lee called them on it. This in addition to a masterful job by Johnie Cochran is why he wasn't convicted. Not even close to this.

Not to mention them using a bigot like Mark Fuhrman anywhere near a case with a high profile African American suspect was really stupid.

Nice to see Niki V getting it on something. It was impossible to convict OJ based on what was presented at trial.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (4 years 8 months 8 hours ago) and read 1343 times:



Quoting N1120A (Reply 11):
Not to mention them using a bigot like Mark Fuhrman anywhere near a case with a high profile African American suspect was really stupid.

I would be willing to bet he is not an isolated case in the LAPD. He was just stupid enough to get on tape spilling his hatred and Cochran played it perfectly.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 11):
It was impossible to convict OJ based on what was presented at trial.

Honestly I think they could have gotten a conviction (and it was verified through talking to the jury) that Henry Lee, Newfield and Scheck proving evidence was planted and Chris Darden's blunder of going with OJ trying on the gloves with jury present (Which the prosecution didn't plan or prepare for) was what cost them. If the prosecution and evidence collection was flawless they could have gotten past Fuhrman easily but they screwed it up big time.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26444 posts, RR: 75
Reply 13, posted (4 years 8 months 6 hours ago) and read 1324 times:



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 12):
I would be willing to bet he is not an isolated case in the LAPD. He was just stupid enough to get on tape spilling his hatred and Cochran played it perfectly.

Actually, it was Lee Bailey who wrung it out of Fuhrman. Bailey was on the team almost exclusively to eviscerate the police officers, which was his career specialty, and he did that.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 12):
Honestly I think they could have gotten a conviction (and it was verified through talking to the jury) that Henry Lee, Newfield and Scheck proving evidence was planted and Chris Darden's blunder of going with OJ trying on the gloves with jury present (Which the prosecution didn't plan or prepare for) was what cost them. If the prosecution and evidence collection was flawless they could have gotten past Fuhrman easily but they screwed it up big time.

I tend to agree with you. Johnnie's famous "if it doesn't fit, you must acquit" line in closing was one of the greatest masterpieces of all time. I think a lot of people get lost in it all and don't realize just how amazing a lawyer he was. The rest of the team were really just role players, though OJ's trial was a launch pad for Barry Scheck and the Innocence Project. In fact, I think Scheck's exposure in Simpson played a huge part in saving all the lives he has.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (4 years 8 months 6 hours ago) and read 1312 times:



Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
Actually, it was Lee Bailey who wrung it out of Fuhrman

Yes but cochran who decided to play the race card. Initially it was meant to just discredit Fuhrman as a liar but it spun out of control. I think Henry Lee would have been enough to get to the finish line but Cochran took no chances.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
Johnnie's famous "if it doesn't fit, you must acquit" line in closing was one of the greatest masterpieces of all time. I think a lot of people get lost in it all and don't realize just how amazing a lawyer he was. The rest of the team were really just role players, though OJ's trial was a launch pad for Barry Scheck and the Innocence Project. In fact, I think Scheck's exposure in Simpson played a huge part in saving all the lives he has.

Yes Cochran's summation was one of the best you will see in trial law. I still think the real credit for winning that case goes to Dershowitz, Newfield and Scheck. They reconstructed that scnene and with the help of Lee found the evidence that was planted long after the crime. The blood drops on the bindle at bundy were proven they couldn't had possibly been left the time of the murder. Scheck uncovered the vile of blood Van Atter carried with him for two hours had blood missing and that blood left at the scene had traces of a preservative only found in labs. It was top notch forensic work and Henry Lee's assesment of the crime scene closed the deal. The LAPD criminalists and LA attorneys office did conspire and they got caught. I am not sure if the gloves were really OJ's but one thing is certain is that OJ didn't act alone and the LAPD planted evidence. Which is whe he walked.


User currently offlineFridgmus From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1442 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (4 years 8 months 5 hours ago) and read 1300 times:
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Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
Yep, but assuming your location is real and not a preference, not a good day for your safety. I hope that some sort of sanity prevails somewhere in this sorry saga.

Hi Baroque, yes, my location is real. I'm a Tech Rep in Al Anbar Province. Not too worried about safety out here, but we don't take any chances. According to some British Private Security guys I had breakfast with this morning, Baghdad is the place to worry about. Yes, I too hope some sanity prevails in this mess.

IMHO, with the exception of the Kurdish areas, I don't believe these guys could get a fair trial anywhere in Iraq. There's just too much animosity and as you would expect, the Iraqi's are very upset about this whole thing.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
BTW no longer Blackwater.

See second line in my opening topic!  smile  But all of us over here still refer to them as Blackwater!



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User currently offlineFuturePilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 8 months 4 hours ago) and read 1284 times:

I love how outraged the Iraqis are over this decision. During their civil war a few years ago, an Iraqi insurgent could walk out in the middle of a crowded Market with women and children and old folks, and just blow himself up. Where was the animosity and the protest from the Iraqis then? A suicide bomber could kill upwards of 100 civilians, but I guess cat got the Iraqis tongue that time. But Americans are charged with killing Iraqis, and now they feel the need to protest and be heard. In the article, it says that the case was being followed very closely by Iraqis  Yeah sure. 2pm and a suicide bomber kills 35 in Baghdad, but the backwater security guards make the front page news.

This is just another reason why I can't stand these people. They are so freakin biased. I understand that they should be angry, and they are. But why aren't they angry whenever their OWN people, commit these same crimes? I know I sound bitter, but I could care less if these guards get off free of charge.



"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (4 years 8 months 3 hours ago) and read 1273 times:



Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 16):
I love how outraged the Iraqis are over this decision. During their civil war a few years ago, an Iraqi insurgent could walk out in the middle of a crowded Market with women and children and old folks, and just blow himself up. Where was the animosity and the protest from the Iraqis then? A suicide bomber could kill upwards of 100 civilians, but I guess cat got the Iraqis tongue that time. But Americans are charged with killing Iraqis, and now they feel the need to protest and be heard. In the article, it says that the case was being followed very closely by Iraqis . 2pm and a suicide bomber kills 35 in Baghdad, but the backwater security guards make the front page news.

This is just another reason why I can't stand these people. They are so freakin biased. I understand that they should be angry, and they are. But why aren't they angry whenever their OWN people, commit these same crimes? I know I sound bitter, but I could care less if these guards get off free of charge.

Also drives home the point that the number of radicals far outweighs the ones who don't share these radical views. It's your country people. If you want to be free overthrow the radicals. It's been done before.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 18, posted (4 years 8 months ago) and read 1252 times:



Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 15):
But all of us over here still refer to them as Blackwater!

Indeed, and I suppose that has a sort of double meaning in that Xe are not going to be allowed to forget their past. Yes, I would guess troubles will start in Baghdad, IIRC the ones killed were Shia and so Sadr city would be a good place to look for trouble. I think even a Kurdi trial would be bound to convict, otherwise those in the court would not last two weeks.
Stay safe.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 16):
But Americans are charged with killing Iraqis, and now they feel the need to protest and be heard. In the article, it says that the case was being followed very closely by Iraqis Yeah sure. 2pm and a suicide bomber kills 35 in Baghdad, but the backwater security guards make the front page news.

Could I introduce you to the basic classification of murderers.

A. Our murderers.

B. Their murderers.

Put that with the problems of occupation and the only thing that surprises me is that you seem to be surprised FP. It is a problem of Occupation 101. Ask Colin Powell, he will tell you ALL about it.

Even within that setting the Blackwater folk seem to he been both stupidly jumpy (yes they may have had stress but if they reacted that way they should have been shipped out months before the incident) but their reactions were just not acceptable. They made a bad situation worse.

Members of the occupation forces or their hangers on, killing innocent civilians does not even up murderous killings by Sunni and Shia insurgents (or vice versa). It makes it a damned sight worse. And a court giving a decision that appears to Iraqis to be biased makes it a great deal worse (I am sure the judge thought about that before he ruled, but he would have had no choice.)


User currently offlineThegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1247 times:

They were immune from prosecution anyway....


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