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Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...  
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3931 times:

What's next?

First off, congratulations to the new Senator-elect. He's proof that, like in any contest, you play it for a reason, and he obviously didn't let early poll numbers persuade him to mail in the campaign. It's a good lesson for anyone in any kind of contest.

Secondly, he should be seated immediately. I know some conspiratorial voices on here and elsewhere have hinted that Sen-elect Brown will be made to wait, but I don't, and I hope that doesn't happen. He's the duly elected representative of his state. Seat him ASAP, so he can do the business his constituents hired him for.

Now, what do both parties do? It's a big win for the GOP, no doubt, but they're still in a position of minority in both houses, and by a wide margin. Everyone is predicting that the GOP will filibuster everything the Democrats want to do to death, but will they? Should they?


There is an opportunity here-for both sides. If the GOP were smart, they'd would not filibuster Health Care reform with the goal to kill it, but with the goal to IMPROVE it, if they think it needs improved. Perhaps they can get the Dems to make some adjustments to the bill that would satisfy them. There's nothing wrong with that.


However, if they filibuster simply to filibuster, and to simply stymie anything the president and the Dems want to do, they run a huge risk at being seen as obstructionist in their opposition. There's a not-so-fine line between holding things up to change them for the better, and simply holding them up because one doesn't want any change.

As for the Dems, I would love for this to be the trigger that gets rid of both Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi as leaders in their respective Chambers. they are, by far, a bigger problem than anyone else in Congress, and it would be a good time to change leadership, not as a sign of defeat of panic, but simply that a change is needed, and to include Republicans in the process-IF the Republicans choose to be included.

And it will be a wake-up call for them that the Mid-Terms, as usual, will be tough one, and they will lose seats, as is usually the case.

So both parties better think long and hard about what they want to do. Flush with victory, the GOP will be tempted to simply become a roadblock, not an agent to help get things done in Washington. The Dems, stung by a defeat, could go into panic mode, but there's no need for that, either.

It's a time for both sides to take the other a bit more seriously, and learn to work together, and get the business of the nation done.

211 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIpodguy7 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 346 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3911 times:

The Republican Scott Brown won the senate seat in Masachusetts! The democrats now lack a philabuster-proof senate majority. The Healthcare bill should be dead. The people have spoken. Each of the 3 politicians Obama has backed since his election have lost. America has spoken, we want change from this Obama style Socialism. God Bless America, nay God Save America.


Next Trips: BNA-ORD-LHR-JTR, HER-CPH, CPH-ARN-CPH, CPH-LHR-DFW-BNA, BNA-DFW, DFW-BNA-DFW (X3)
User currently offlineSCCutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5508 posts, RR: 28
Reply 2, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3896 times:

Falcon, well-written.

If his opponents try to delay seating Mr.Brown, any result they attain will be tainted.

Perhaps the ruling party can see this as an opportunity for self-examination, reassessment.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineGatorFan From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 331 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3901 times:

The pressure is now on Pelosi. The decisions she makes next will define her speakership. One option being tossed around is having the House vote on the Senate version of the bill without any amendment. If the House passes it in its current form, the President can sign it and it becomes law. The big question is whether Pelosi can keep 4 Representatives from jumping ship. (Personally, I don't think she can.)

The writing is on the wall, a vote for health care is going to be deadly in moderate districts. So the question is, are the Democrats more interested in getting health care passed or are they more interested in retaining power.

This is also going to substantially change the money race for November. Brown's victory shows that political contributions to GOP candidates aren't going to be wasted. I think Democrats are going to lose about 25 to 30 House seats in November. I also think that Democrats are going to tell Pelosi that her Speakership is done (I don't think it's inconceivable that she'll retire). Reid will also likely lose his seat.

The State of Union is going to be key. If I were a moderate Democrat, I'd demand that the President take ownership of this health care plan. So far he's left Congressional Democrat hanging in the wind. In fact, he's screwed them pretty hard. Remember, the health care tax plan that the President now supports is the exact plan he ridiculed John McCain for proposing. At the end of the day, the entire US House is up for election come November. Until and unless the President stakes his political power on the success or failure of this plan, it's unreasonable to expect Congress to do that - particularly after the message that was sent tonight.


User currently offlineN537FX From Switzerland, joined Oct 2009, 115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3881 times:

Yes, congrats to the new senator. Even if the Dems may have good ideas and plans, they certainly do not do a good job of conveying their message to the wider people. They perhaps have only themselves to blame.

User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3883 times:



Quoting Ipodguy7 (Reply 1):
The democrats now lack a philabuster-proof senate majority.

That's "filibuster-proof", just for spelling's sake.

Quoting Ipodguy7 (Reply 1):
The Health care bill should be dead. The people have spoken.

The people of the Great Commonwealth of Massachusetts don't make up the whole nation, last time I checked. And most polls show Americans DO want Health Care reform, so I don't see where it should be dead. In fact, it should not be dead. That's the question I was posing; should the GOP use that one seat, which keeps a filibuster-proof majority out of the Senate, simply to kill reform, or to make reform-which is going to happen anyway-something better? Do they run the chance of being seen as simply obstructionist, or do they use it to help move the nation forward?

Quoting Ipodguy7 (Reply 1):
we want change from this Obama style Socialism.

You want change. Most Americans, just one year ago, voted overwhelmingly for Obama to be President, and, unlike you, do not think he is a Socialist. In fact, he's not.

Again, what will both parties do now?


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3873 times:



Quoting GatorFan (Reply 3):
The pressure is now on Pelosi.

Pelosi heads the House, not the Senate. The pressure is now on Reid, not Pelosi, IMHO.

Quoting N537FX (Reply 4):
Even if the Dems may have good ideas and plans, they certainly do not do a good job of conveying their message to the wider people.

Yes, that's why they won the presidency in a landslide a year ago, and hold large majorities in both Houses of Congress.  Yeah sure C'mon, let's get some reality here. Because Coakley didn't run a good race doesn't mean ALL Dems don't run good races. That's a little over-the-top.


User currently offlineGatorFan From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 331 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3875 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
And most polls show Americans DO want Health Care reform, so I don't see where it should be dead.

Can you link us to 2 or 3 of these polls because every poll I've seen shows that most Americans are happy with their health coverage (by a large majority).

Democrats can still pass health care reform - let's see if they have the guts to do it.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
voted overwhelmingly for Obama to be President, and, unlike you, do not think he is a Socialist. In fact, he's not.

Please define socialism according to you.


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8223 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3867 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
First off, congratulations to the new Senator-elect.

I'll actually second that, even if it surprises some on this board. MA has elected good Republican Senators in the past. (The last one happened to be an African American.)

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Secondly, he should be seated immediately.

He will be sworn in as soon as the election is certified by the MA SecState. With the lead we're seeing that should not take a long time. Certainly not a FL 2000 situation.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
He's the duly elected representative of his state.

After he's certified. Probably by the end of the week.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
As for the Dems, I would love for this to be the trigger that gets rid of both Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi as leaders in their respective Chambers.

I believe that Reid and Pelosi will stay in place until after Obama signs the Health Reform legislation. They are the two that are tasked to carry the load and they'll finish the job.

With Brown elected I see the House simply passing the Senate version of the Health Reform Bill - and doing so rather quickly. There is no reason to spend any more time on it in the Senate from the Democrat's point of view, or from Obama's point of view.

That effectively puts Brown in a position of serving his State in every area outside of health care reform - which will be interesting to follow. WIll Brown be a hard nosed conservative or will he be a moderate who really wants to get elected in his next time up?

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
And it will be a wake-up call for them that the Mid-Terms, as usual, will be tough one, and they will lose seats, as is usually the case.

The mid-terms are always an unhappy event for those in the White House and this year will not be any different.

If the House adopts the Senate version of health reform then the issue will be on the table, but some parts of health reform (pre-existing conditions) will be an albatross around the Republican's neck as Democrats will be able to claim they get rid of it.

And the employment will be a huge factor. We'll need to see how that goes.

As well as the economy, two wars, etc.

The 2010 elections are giong to get nasty, but Republicans can't claim the professional management qualities they used to claim - not after Bush/Cheney.

All in all it's going to be interesting to watch.


User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 30
Reply 9, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3869 times:



Quoting SCCutler (Reply 2):
If his opponents try to delay seating Mr.Brown, any result they attain will be tainted.

Apparently Pelosi said she would seat immediately. Our state election commissioner said he would certify immediately as well.



Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
User currently offlineGatorFan From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 331 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3847 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 6):
Pelosi heads the House, not the Senate. The pressure is now on Reid, not Pelosi, IMHO.

The Senate bill is pending before the House. The Senate never took up the House bill. So if Democrats want to pass health care, they can do so with a simple majority vote in the House of the Senate bill as long as that bill is not amended. The pressure is on Speaker Pelosi.

If SHE decides to not take the Senate bill up for consideration OR seeks to amend it, THEN and only then does the filibuster come into play as the conference bill would have to again be voted on the Senate (and a Senator could then attempt to filibuster it requiring a cloture vote before a final vote on the bill). ABC has a great cartoon video on how a bill becomes a law. Maybe you should watch it.

[Edited 2010-01-20 13:02:52 by srbmod]

User currently offlineLuckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2168 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3845 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
As for the Dems, I would love for this to be the trigger that gets rid of both Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi as leaders in their respective Chambers.

I could not agree with you more. I've long thought that Nanci Pelosi has as strong a grip on reality as Squeaky Fromme. She is a national embarrassment on the same level as Bush. The only difference being she's crazy, while he was stupid.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
And most polls show Americans DO want Health Care reform, so I don't see where it should be dead.

True. However, the majority of Americans do not think that the reform being forced down our throats is the way to do it. Anybody with half a brain can smell something funny in all the behind-closed-doors dealing. Not to mention the price tag...

The House, IMHO, has been completely out of control since about September/October of '08 when it became apparent that Obama was going to win. Also, also this rhetoric being spewed about Hope and change was idiotic if you ask me, because the worst thing you can do psychologically to a person is promise them "hope" and not deliver.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3829 times:



Quoting GatorFan (Reply 7):
Please define socialism according to you.

'
Socialism, in it's lesser form, is what you have in many European nations: a large tax burden on the people, that covers just about every service you can think of: higher education; Day Care; Health Care; everything. That's Socialism. At it's worst, it's a system that evolves into Communism, aka the USSR, DRPK, PRC, etc.

What we have in this nation isn't Socialism. Even this new Health Care bill, stripped of a Public Option, isn't Socialism.

We don't have near as high a tax rate as most of Europe and other nations. Our government doesn't outright pay for college, heath care, day care, etc.

I wonder, off-hand, if anyone has ever done a study about who ends up paying more in the long run: people in socialist democracies, who have that high tax rate, or Americans, who would rather pay for Day Care, Health Care, etc, out of their own pocket? Might be interesting.

But there you go.

And, by the way, I truly believe that many people, like yourself, if you REALLY thought you lived in a Socialist society, you'd leave, simply on the principal of it. But we don't come close to such a society, not even under big bad Obama.  Yeah sure


User currently offlineStasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3280 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3827 times:



Quoting Ipodguy7 (Reply 1):
The Healthcare bill should be dead.

Healthcare is not dead in Massachusetts - there's a statewide healthplan that covers virtually everyone in that state. The voters don't care about national healthcare there, apparently. They "already got theirs".  Angry



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 30
Reply 14, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3821 times:



Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 13):
Healthcare is not dead in Massachusetts - there's a statewide healthplan that covers virtually everyone in that state.

Which has driven this state into a massive deficit.

Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 13):
The voters don't care about national healthcare there, apparently. They "already got theirs".

Yep. And we got the shaft for it. Which is one more reason we elected Brown to stop this madness from happening at a federal level.



Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3804 times:



Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 14):
Yep. And we got the shaft for it. Which is one more reason we elected Brown to stop this madness from happening at a federal level.

If Brown is going into this simply to be a force for delay and obstruction, he won't last very long, and from what I've read, he's not a dumb guy.

As I said, Cadet, what will the tactics be: simply to delay and obstruct, or to actually present their own ideas, that have merit? (not like that phony budget they trotted out early last year)

This shouldn't just be a game, my friend, but a chance to do some good-and simply obstructing for the sake of obstruction will boomerang on those who try it eventually. Remember the fallout in the 90's, when the Government shut down. Who got the blame-the GOP, because the American people felt they were simply being obstructionist.


User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 30
Reply 16, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3794 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 15):
If Brown is going into this simply to be a force for delay and obstruction, he won't last very long, and from what I've read, he's not a dumb guy.

Who said healthcare is his only reason?



Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
User currently offlineGatorFan From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 331 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3794 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 12):
Socialism, in it's lesser form, is what you have in many European nations: a large tax burden on the people, that covers just about every service you can think of: higher education; Day Care; Health Care; everything.

I don't think a single economic textbook agrees with you. Socialism refers to the various theories of economic organization advocating public or direct worker ownership and administration of the means of production and allocation of resources, and a society characterized by equal access to resources for all individuals with a method of compensation based on the amount of labor expended.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 12):
That's Socialism. At it's worst, it's a system that evolves into Communism, aka the USSR, DRPK, PRC, etc.

Even Marx doesn't agree with that statement. According to the Marx's 1875 Critique of the Gotha Program - capitalism evolves into Communism.

In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life's prime want; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly—only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!


User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13078 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3786 times:

I believe that MA state law requires a 10 day period to certifiy, although the AG could suspend that. With a win by a substantual margin, beyond that of a requied recount or even worth a challange by the losing canidate, a suspension of that certification period could be effected by later in the week or early next week. Once the certification process by MA is done and the papers filed with the State Elections Board, then the certification can be forwarded to the USA Senate and Brown should be promptly accepted as the new Senator, given his oath and seated.
I wonder which committees he will be assigned to? The Republicans will want to award him one of the preferred ones as a reward for his critical win.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3770 times:



Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 16):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 15):
If Brown is going into this simply to be a force for delay and obstruction, he won't last very long, and from what I've read, he's not a dumb guy.

Who said healthcare is his only reason?

I deliberately did not say Healthcare in that paragraph, and for a reason. It's not the only issue, and there's always the chance that the GOP could filibuster everything that comes up now. That's what I'm talking about. Do you want the nation run like that?

Quoting GatorFan (Reply 17):
Socialism refers to the various theories of economic organization advocating public or direct worker ownership and administration of the means of production and allocation of resources, and a society characterized by equal access to resources for all individuals with a method of compensation based on the amount of labor expended.

And that CERTAINLY isn't the U.S, especially when you have such a gap between the wealthiest Americans and the poorest. Again, you are incorrect in saying we somehow live in a Socialist society. We don't even come close.

So why do you and other Conservatives keep saying we do, when it's obvious we're not even close? I know why, but I don't think you have the nerve to face up to the real reason.


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8223 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3770 times:



Quoting GatorFan (Reply 3):
The pressure is now on Pelosi.

Ain't that the truth!  bouncy 

Quoting GatorFan (Reply 3):
The writing is on the wall, a vote for health care is going to be deadly in moderate districts.

That won't be know until November. By then there may well be other things that are critical to the voters. Look how "unimportant" Haiti was 2 weeks ago. Things change.

And by then a lot of voters will be able to get insurance for themselves or someone in their family with "pre-existing conditions" outlawed. I don't believe conservatives consider that as important as it is.

Quoting GatorFan (Reply 3):
So far he's left Congressional Democrat hanging in the wind.

Odd thing is that he let both the House and Senate use their collective thinking - such as it is. There were "basic guidelines" provided by Obama, but elected officials were allowed to use their own mind. Major change from the previous election.

Quoting GatorFan (Reply 7):
every poll I've seen shows that most Americans are happy with their health coverage (by a large majority).

Most, but not all, Americans that actually have health insurance are happy with it. I suspect that you'll also find that the level of happiness increases when the percentage of premium costs paid by their employer increases.

The issue is how these same people feel about, ay, a pubic option for those who cannot afford health insurance, or are "medical rejects". Those polls show that people what others be be able to get care when they need it.

Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 13):
Healthcare is not dead in Massachusetts

Yes, they do have the Republican Governor Romney plan as I recall. How is that working out?  Yeah sure

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 14):
Which has driven this state into a massive deficit.

Could that be because it was a Republican plan that made the insurance companies richer?  Smile


User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 30
Reply 21, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3765 times:



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 18):

As I said above. The state election commissioner was interviewed. He said he has no reason for a recount and will certify the election as soon as the final votes are tallied. He said he would notify the feds immediately.



Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
User currently offlineGatorFan From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 331 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3754 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 19):
Again, you are incorrect in saying we somehow live in a Socialist society. We don't even come close.

I never said that. The statement being debated whether or not Pres. Obama is socialist.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3735 times:



Quoting GatorFan (Reply 22):
I never said that. The statement being debated whether or not Pres. Obama is socialist.

Which he is not. When the bailout money was handed to the banks, conservatives screamed "See, he's taking over the industry!". Well, that was a lie. Many, if not most, of the banks have paid back the money, and the government no longer has a stake in them, does it?

We are not a Socialist State. We do not have a Socialist president. It seems Conservatives always need some scary term to try and peg their domestic enemies as somehow "UnAmerican". Which is shameful.


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8129 posts, RR: 26
Reply 24, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3725 times:

Well the only thing immediately apparent is that the Democratic party is now even more screwed up than they already were. These are adults, right?? Sorry, wrong question.

"We're always in touch with our members," Pelosi said at an afternoon press conference. "In the House, we don't have surprises when it comes to elections."

Pelosi’s dig at her Senate colleagues was harsh — but no more so than much of the back-and-forth that played out in a sort of pre-mortem for the Coakley campaign at other levels of the party...

POLITICO reported Tuesday morning that Democratic insiders in Washington — including officials at the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee and White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel — were putting some of the blame on Coakley for putting Kennedy’s seat at risk.

By mid-day, Coakley’s crew was pushing back — hard.

A Coakley adviser took the White House and the Democratic National Committee to task for “leaking” and said that, “If Martha is guilty of taking the race for granted, so is the White House and the DNC."


Seriously, if there's any Democrat out there who is still an ardent supporter of Pelosi and her underhanded ways, their sanity must now be called into question.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0110/31682.html



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
25 WarRI1 : I would ask this question, if the Democrats ramrod this healthcare through, does anyone have any doubt that the Republicans would do the same if given
26 Falcon84 : I second both those.
27 GatorFan : Does the US own GM? Does the US own Fannie and Freddie? Does the US own AIG? Does the US still own warrants representing about 35% of Citibank? Does
28 Falcon84 : You just don't get it, do you? Did the government give up it's stake in those banks who paid back the Federal money? Yes or no? A temporary investmen
29 DfwRevolution : That's because we borrow the difference.
30 Falcon84 : Good point.
31 Ken777 : Go back to the US helping Chrysler out a while back when Iacocca was CEO. We got the warrants, the company paid back all they needed before it was du
32 JCS17 : ... he should send both his daughters to my house, scantily clad. ... Actually, I think that Obama/Pelosi/Reid will try to use various nuclear options
33 NIKV69 : Then why the proposed 50% tax on bonuses? We are not bitching, we are trying to save our country from getting into further trouble. Obama lied to us,
34 Falcon84 : Brown, you mean? Haven't seen them. They that hot, Jcs? And you supported George W? That's funny. Goody. Where were you the last 8 years when Mr. Bus
35 DfwRevolution : Did Republicans "ramrod" through private social security accounts in 2005 when they held the White House and majorities in both houses? That's a rhet
36 JCS17 : Actually, G.W. Bush had humility and rarely fired back at his detractors. Obama has hubris, and has an obsessive reflex of firing back at his detract
37 Mir : The incompetence of the Democrats rears its head again. They took the seat for granted, and it came back to bite them in the ass, hard. They should b
38 Falcon84 : Humility? "You're either with us or against us." "We'll get him, dead or alive." "Bring it on!" "I have political capital, and I intend to use it." C
39 Sv7887 : Here's a few whoppers from the current POTUS: Three days after taking office, Obama’s response to Republicans who disagreed with the economic stimu
40 GatorFan : No sir. The US Treasury Secretary has said that our investment in AIG will never be paid back in full. He's said that our investment in Freddie and F
41 Cws818 : So why didn't you start trying to save the country before now? Why the sudden interest? How, exactly, is he able to force the House and Senate to ope
42 Texan : Obama is, at best, an Eisenhower-era Republican. He might even be a little further to the right than that. Just because you don't recognize the shift
43 Caryjack : I doubt it. The Democrat's health care initiative is the most egregious abuse of power I have seen any US political body perform, and I voted for Nix
44 Falcon84 : That's one of the greatest things I've ever read on here.
45 GatorFan : Here's another example - did the GOP invoke the "nuclear option" to ramrod judicial appointments who were even brought up to the floor for Senate con
46 Alias1024 : It's about a lame candidate who ran a lame campaign and lost to a better candidate and campaigner. This wasn't a referendum on health care reform, th
47 Sv7887 : Remember how those non profit government backed institutions called Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac turned out? Careful what you wish for...
48 Falcon84 : They invoked the "nuclear option", if you will, over the budget back in the mid 90's, and got the blame for the government shutdown. This won't be qu
49 DXing : When the democratic leadership ignores their concerns and attempts to pass a bill that goes completely against core GOP beliefs they have every right
50 Post contains links Texan : Fannie Mae did not receive any federal government funding or backing until the bailout. The government sold it off in 1968. It is a common mistake. O
51 Post contains links Sv7887 : It was implicit in the established of Fannie Mae that the government would bail it out if it got into trouble. That bailout just illustrates the US G
52 DXing : What about those statements is arrogrant? In your first statement he was talking about regime's that harbor terrorists. In the second statement he wa
53 Texan : We said the same thing. There is and never was a guarantee. What investors believed was irrelevant to their actual missions. In one of the authorizin
54 OA412 : No he had Karl Rove for that. I'd love to know the answer to that as well. And George W Bush lied to us when he told us there were WMDs in Iraq. Whic
55 Ken777 : Fortunately that one died on the vine - when the DOW was 14000+, which was before it went to the 6000 range. If old George had gotten his way on that
56 Post contains links Sv7887 : Versus a Social Security trust fund that is in the red now? And will be depleted in less than 20 yrs or so at this rate? It will get worse as more ba
57 NorthstarBoy : For Massachussetts, the result of this election was the embodiment of Obama's philosophy of change. The same voters who voted in Obama as the answer t
58 Flighty : I guess this ends the Democratic hubris in a pretty huuuuuuuuge hurry.
59 AirStairs : I understand the statistic you're quoting, but I hope that we both understand that statistics can be very misleading. It is entirely plausible that m
60 LTU932 : I read about this in a German news magazine article. For the Democrats, it would be the logical course of action because if they do decide to find a
61 National757 : I hope the Dems delay the seating of Brown and Rahm the Anti-Health Care Reform Bill through Congress. C'mon Pelosi/Reid don't fail us now
62 StasisLAX : The insurance and Pharma stocks shot WAY up yesterday and today with the poll's projecting of a substantial Coakly loss in MA, and (in my opinion) Pr
63 MAH4546 : It's a clear sign that Americans are fed up with Obama, and hopefully this will continue. It's not just about Obama's insanely stupid healthcare plan.
64 DfwRevolution : 1. The Dow Jones in 2005 was just about where it is now, actually. 2. The root cause of the stock market plunge was a liquidity crisis. The solution
65 Mrocktor : Not entirely. It is a mix of socialism (the "pure" welfare programs and outright government owned businesses such as the Post Office, most roads); fa
66 GatorFan : Again, you use the term incorrectly. The nuclear option was the term coined for the procedural move whereby a Senator would raise a point of order as
67 Cgnnrw : God does not have an American passport! Or can you prove otherwise....God Bless Germany, Canada, Great Britain, Norwary, Cuba, Brazil, etc.etc....I g
68 Flighty : Well, it's a slight improvement over Satanism, which is what the current health system is. Which is actually pretty cool. Yeah, go Satan, long may He
69 KC135TopBoom : Congrads to US Senate Elect Scott Brown. Now he must live up to his promises, that he will vote against ObamaCare, just live the good people of Massac
70 Falcon84 : Talk about overblown sophistry!
71 CALTECH : Epic Upset. The slide of the United States of America into the mediocrity of socialism has been halted by the People of Massachusetts, for now . The f
72 KC135TopBoom : I don't think God needs a passport issued by any country. But, in any case, God bless America, and Germany. Correst, the US is not a socialist state,
73 Falcon84 : You guys are amazing, just amazing! What a load of crap you're trying shovel. Problem is, only the True Believers believe this lilne. Massachusettes
74 Post contains links GatorFan : Wrong yet again. It seems that the SFGate (her hometown paper) also thinks Pelosi may have a problem retaining her speakership. Remember, you read it
75 NIKV69 : It is this mindset that is leading to the downfall of your party. Keep it up. It's working wonders. Yep keep blaming Bush. It so much easier than to
76 GatorFan : Blessings aren't finite. So when we ask God to Bless America, it doesn't prevent anyone else from asking God to Bless anything else. So go ahead, ask
77 Cgnnrw : Well had their CEOs or whoever didn't go begging for handouts they would be free to do whatever they pleased and pay their employees whatever they wa
78 Post contains links GatorFan : Actually my original statement was correct. See the attached press release from Citibank. http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/da...0095012309073343/y81
79 Texan : The problem with voting for the lesser of two evils, of course, is that you are still voting for evil I tend to vote for the candidate I think is the
80 Post contains links and images Dreadnought : Woah... Cool your jets, people. The Battle of the Metaphors is getting crazy. As for Brown's treatment of Coakley last night, I think this might be a
81 Ken777 : "at this rate" is the issue. During our working lives we paid what was needed, built up a large surplus which both political parties had fun using an
82 Post contains links Baroque : Thank heaven some in the US know where zero is in the political spectrum. Obama being a socialist is indeed risible. And why does socialism get such
83 FlyPNS1 : Of course, they're not. When Conservatives gain power in Congress, they will quickly continue spending like there is no tomorrow. That's the funny th
84 Dreadnought : Excuse me, but insurance companies are on the side of the Democrats on this one. Remember Coakley's fundraiser last week? All the big insurance compa
85 Dreadnought : A little exagurated... Intentional Homicide rates per 100,000 population, 2008 US: 5.4 Canada, 1.83 Sweden: 0.89 Norway: 0.71 Finland: 2.17 Now let's
86 Ken777 : Only as long as they escape the public option. Their bonuses increase significantly if tort reform and cross border sales happen. Or the Senate versi
87 Post contains images Texan : I agree that they need to start over and work at bringing down costs. Tort reform should definitely be on the table, but it should be easier to deal
88 FlyDeltaJets87 : I hope this election is a sign of things to come in the November mid-terms but that said, the Republicans need to avoid becoming over-confident expect
89 AGM100 : I can not speak for others but I know that I am going back to business. I have some hope now that my taxes and costs will not spike and the future of
90 Seb146 : I am so sick of this lie. Republicans won one seat in the Senate and it is the voice of a nation? No, it is not. I live in California and I never got
91 Slider : Well said Falcon. There have been countless articles and voices commenting on the election of Brown and what it means and, more importantly, where thi
92 AirStairs : Not so. If the House passes the Senate bill, Brown will have a say on every procedural vote during the reconciliation process. It is convenient to sa
93 MoltenRock : LMAO! You do realize that Scott Brown voted for universal healthcare in Massachusetts don't you? Or did you pay no attention to issues and voting his
94 Texan : I disagree that our racial history and "ghettoization" are different from many other countries. France, Italy, Spain, Japan, and even the U.K. to a d
95 LTU932 : Even in an ideal world, the party holding an absolute majority should always confront the opposition. And since in the US, all majorities are absolut
96 Luckyone : I have a post on either in this forum or the other one about this topic where I stated that Obama is just the opposite extreme of both and they're bo
97 Post contains links and images MoltenRock : Really? How so, please be specific. Which "non transparency issues" are you specifically speaking to? You haven't provided a single fact in your enti
98 AirStairs : I am still confused as to why you equate disagreeing with Barack Obama's policies with endorsing all of George Bush's. That makes NO sense. I can tel
99 Post contains images Luckyone : Especially since most post had no mention of that at all...! I think a lot of people are being let down tremendously by the Obama administration and
100 MoltenRock : Pelosi has done an incredible job and is doing what the base of the Democratic party wants. It is Reid and Obama that have let down the Democratic ba
101 Luckyone : For constituents in San Francisco no doubt. Most of the country (and the world for that matter) is not San Francisco. To center/moderates like me she
102 KC135TopBoom : Read the "tea leaves", my friend. "Change" is blowin in the wind, and it is not ObamaCare the nation wants or can afford. Correct, instead Obama give
103 Texan : I tend to vote for "not evil," whether that means voting for a member of the established party, a third party, an independent, or writing someone in.
104 MoltenRock : Ok, but what specific things has she done you as a moderate/center Democrat done that you disagree with? (Not personality... legislatively or in her
105 Luckyone : Just because she's done things doesn't mean I agree with WHAT she's done and the WAY she did them. Aside from roads and a few other infrastructure pr
106 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : Oh let me see..... he did want to broardcast 1 hour of the house/senate conference on health care. But the conference has been going on since 26 Dec.
107 Luckyone : I'm very familiar with the process, thanks. The fact that the representatives from the electoral college USUALLY and SHOULD award their votes based o
108 Slider : KC135 nailed it briefly, but there haven’t even BEEN committee meetings…the cloture vote circumvented a lot of that. Bills that aren’t read, mu
109 Post contains links MoltenRock : You are confusing "job" with media exposure and if you like her personality. Her job, as it is defined consists of: 1.) administering the oath of off
110 Tommy767 : Brown is a good fit for MA, IMHO. He's a very progressive republican and is even pro-choice. Of course, there will be plenty of people who won't even
111 Luckyone : Her personality and the way she deals with the media are most certainly part of her job description. She is the SPEAKER of the House, therefore she r
112 Arrow : Where did you get that idea? I pay health insurance premiums (as do most other Canadians) and a portion of my taxes to fund health care. Nothing is f
113 StuckInCA : Those may be ironic words when we have a MINORITY obstructing with filibusters what the MAJORITY elected party tries to do. Phhhhhtt.
114 Cws818 : You must be kidding. So having a Democratic mayor automatically produces more violent crime? Really? The mayor of New York City, by the way, is not a
115 Ken777 : Which is far better than Bush scratching his ass on issues like WMD in Iraq (he decided there was so no one would think he was soft?), the economy, m
116 Post contains links MoltenRock : I'm not being "intellectually disingenuous" at all. America is not a direct democracy so you don't get to vote on individual bills I'm sorry. It's a
117 Post contains links DXing : Not according to the exit polling they didn't. http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ..._stunning_victory_in_massachusetts Fifty-six percent (56%) of v
118 Dreadnought : Rank. City, State, % of People Below the Poverty Level 1. Detroit , MI 32.5% Detroit hasn't elected a Republican mayor since 1961; 2. Buffalo , NY 29
119 DXing : The Louisanna Purchase and the Cornhusker Kickback were done in conference to get 60 votes, not included in either the House or Senate bill on line.
120 Texan : I agree that Medicare needs to be reformed and that they have a ton of paperwork too. So the government should either regulate how much private compa
121 TheCol : Way to use your head. Don't you just love party goons? WTF is wrong with you Republicans? Can't you tell the difference between Socialism and America
122 Seb146 : As much of a trend as seeing all the states involved have seaports or international airports. Please explain how that can possibly make a difference.
123 Texan : So if poor people elected Republican mayors they would be better off? I'm sorry, but a bigger problem seems to be national policies increasing income
124 Post contains links MoltenRock : Anyone who throws that out there isn't worth the time of day, much less an intelligent answer. It's just as ludicrous as someone calling Bush a Nazi
125 AGM100 : Wow the libs are in a foul mood today ..... I was simply stating what was actually said by a democrat leader . They do not know how to create jobs ..
126 MoltenRock : Dubious polling results aside, why were Mass. people against this? Because they already have a much, much better healthcare plan in place, right ther
127 MoltenRock : What the heck are you talking about Dittohead? Pray tell what other kind of "government created jobs" can the government directly create? How can you
128 Post contains links DXing : The government could either pick up part of the cost of R&D which drives up the price, insure the pharma's against outrageous lawsuits when the FDA h
129 Post contains links GatorFan : Only if the bill needs reconciliation. If the House adopts the Senate version without amendment, there is nothing to reconcile. Therefore, the option
130 KC135TopBoom : The Stimulus bill? You do know that only 30% of the $787B got spent in 2009, don't you? It paid off Hillary's campagin debts (yes, her campaign moine
131 Texan : Virginia is a conservative state that normally goes for moderate to conservative Democrats or Republicans. New Jersey, thankfully, rebelled against a
132 Post contains images OA412 : No we don't.   Your point? The United States is a western nation and, as such, should be compared to other western nations not to developing nations
133 Arrow : Don't forget Mexico and India. From a recent CNN story citing a Deloitte study: "Next year alone, an estimated 6 million Americans will travel abroad
134 Nonrevman : Being from Texas, I realize that my state was not even represented in the final closed door "negotiations" because the two Republican senators were lo
135 Luckyone : Oh absolutely. I was just pointing out that there is an alarming number of the aforementioned type of voters. Welcome to my RR list. Obviously he has
136 GatorFan : The President has no power to add or detract anything from legislation. He can say he won't sign it, but the Senate bill as passed is could be taken
137 Ken777 : Now that is funny, in a rather sad way. #8! At least we're ahead of Cuba. Aren't we? The one that was put out when Brown voted for the mandatory heal
138 Falcon84 : Yeah, that explains all the conservatives on here who think Sarah Palin is POTUS material.
139 Luckyone : I wouldn't worry too much. At the very least she'll have a year on FoxNews to open her trap and give plenty of evidence to the contrary. Unless she w
140 LTBEWR : I have seen a number of views here and elsewhere (political websites, opinion programs) as to why Brown won and Cokaley lost. One simple and important
141 OA412 : I'm pretty sure that her little stint on Fox will be the final nail in her political coffin.
142 Flighty : I agree, the current plan is horrible and way too expensive. It should be a *lot* cheaper. Which is within the power of the US congress, if they wish
143 AirStairs : Yes, I know, but there is no way the House is going to pass it unless the prez and leadership outright promise the opportunity to make modifications
144 NIKV69 : Yea almost as funny as thinking Obama is president material. I found it staggering the day after a left state has spit in the face of the DNC to tell
145 Luckyone : It is indeed my opinion (and preference) that Obama become the next Jimmy Carter. Elected on the heels of a massively unpopular administration only t
146 Post contains links DXing : And he realizes now how Obama care will repeat the worst of the mistakes his State made. http://www.forbes.com/2010/01/20/sco...s-david-gratzer.html?
147 Cws818 : Let me guess: you said the same thing about Bill Clinton in 1994, didn't you?
148 Cws818 : Abject fear? Ha! Who said conservatives have no sense of humor...[Edited 2010-01-20 18:51:22 by cws818]
149 Ken777 : The government already invests in R&D, with a lot of Doctors and Medical Clinics using the money for effective research. Unfortunately when the resea
150 WarRI1 : Now that is a naive statement, in this day and age. anyone who can look at any politician as a hero is missing something. They are all self serving,
151 OA412 : Don't tell me, you thought that GWB was presidential material right? You know it. You're now the judge on who is and who is not intelligent? Let's pu
152 MoltenRock : She's a toadie that didn't deserve to win. But those people trying to declare this one election and especially "healthcare" as the #1 reason for voti
153 Post contains links StarAC17 : Simple it is because the US system can give you the best care in the world if you have the $$$, but not everyone has the $$$ and not everyone in a co
154 L-188 : The election of Brown is an absolute good. Goverment fuctions best when there are checks in place, which hasn't been the case since Obama was elected.
155 OA412 : Now he's a false President? Care to explain this one? Right because, in the grand scheme of things, the fact that Chicago was not awarded the Olympic
156 NIKV69 : No I didn't think Bill Clinton was a bad president, until he picked some fat ugly girl to use his cigar on. I would have taken Bubba over this last y
157 MoltenRock : Agreed. It was why I would roll my eyes and have to hold back from biting a friend's head off when they'd say there were going to vote for Obama in t
158 Ken777 : After Sarah Palin went to how many colleges and/or universities to get ONE single piece of paper? In "Communications"? Is that how she learned to rea
159 Cws818 : I'm with you here - he did a very good job while in office. I think a lot of people remember the mid-to-late 90s as a time when things were going pre
160 Post contains images OA412 : Nice try but I don't follow Begala. I can't stand the talking heads on TV. They're a bunch of blowhards the lot of them. Anyway, I mentioned the fact
161 CALTECH : Except for Pelosi, she may lose the House Speaker job, but she will keep her seat. Too bad she likely will not get the Massachusetts treatment. Bitch
162 OA412 : You clearly have no idea what socialism is if you believe that American liberals are socialists.
163 MoltenRock : Agreed. But frankly the US is doomed to becoming an also ran, former powerhouse much like the USSR, Britain, Rome, Greece, Persia, and the Egyptians.
164 FlyDeltaJets87 : It was actually tea from China that was thrown into the Boston Harbor that day. Well, I think we had a Republican-controlled Congress passing balance
165 Falcon84 : You know that; I know that; hell, THEY know that, but the truth here isn't what is being pushed-it's another old Republican/conservative scare tactic
166 NIKV69 : I agree, I just wish he didn't lie after he got caught though. Lost a little respect for him. Kind of like McGuire. Just say you did roids, we all kn
167 Post contains images TheCol : Canada's system is also riddled with problems, which we Canadians need to address. Thankfully, the US isn't even close to copying it. If that were to
168 CALTECH : Liberals taking over banks, auto industry, and investment firms, telling the GM CEO he must quit, spending other's money in record amounts, raising t
169 Cws818 : So you say. I find that interpretation rather ignorant.
170 TheCol : No offense, but that's really surprising coming from somebody who's lived outside the US. If you think Obama is a socialist, then the rest of the Wes
171 OA412 : To say the least. Very well said.
172 DXing : Research grants to Universities are not the same thing as R&D with pharma companies. Universities are usually looking a lot farther down the road tha
173 Mrocktor : What you call "liberal" (that certainly takes the crown for Orwellian newspeak) is what the world calls "social democratic". Yes, the "social" is for
174 CaliAtenza : and so it begins....
175 Dreadnought : Especially since the term is more accurate than "Liberal". Until the 1920s, they were known as Progressives, but the people eventually figured out th
176 Baroque : Thanks OA412, saved me the trouble. But it gets better (worse). WC is one source, but in some ways you appear to be more with Marie Antoinette. I won
177 CaliAtenza : When i saw this thread i knew it was going to be a bloodbath. Cant all you guys get over your stupid bullshit (NIKV69, DXing and some of you others) a
178 Post contains links Baroque : Socialism in action: http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2009/s2667941.htm Australia has two main classes of superannuation funds. One is the retail fu
179 Dreadnought : You are implying that these industry funds are "socialist". Can you provide any links as to what is in those funds? A Morningstar report maybe? What
180 FlyDeltaJets87 : Just like the quotes from all those "liars" were very well said, and I notice you didn't respond to them. So I'll ask again - Once again, I will make
181 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : Because that is all they can? No one in the democrat party has looked and, wants to look at, or even wants published the CBO costs numbers of either
182 CaliAtenza : But Iraq didnt have any terrorists or at least Saddam wasnt harbouring any that we knew of. In fact, we should have invaded Saudia Arabia because tha
183 PPVRA : Isn't that what was done in previous "health reform" efforts by your Federal government? Doesn't seem to be working out too well.
184 NIKV69 : Do you read anything before you type? How can I be far right? Sure I support low taxes and guns but I also support abortion, gay rights and the legal
185 KC135TopBoom : The problems we currently have actually go back to Clinton, but Bush never tried to use President Clinton as an excuse. Clinton had a offer to get bi
186 AGM100 : Simple...if you believe that the current administration is ran by leftist "socialists" it makes sense. They have proven that they want the government
187 Post contains links Baroque : I am not in one (though I wish I was) so I will have to scrape up what I can. Their own site is: http://www.industryfunds.org.au/iff/index.cfm?conten
188 Seb146 : Where, exactly did he say he is not interested in tort reform? Why is that the only thing you righties claim will fix absolutly everything about heal
189 Post contains links MoltenRock : Sure, for a whole swath of people that have no clue as to what history or geography lessons from 5 years ago, much less 50 years ago, it's easy to be
190 CaliAtenza : First off he is your President too, like it or not. If you dont respect him as a person at least respect the office. Ok then remind me where you have
191 Luckyone : If that's the case and history's any indication then Obama's in for a HORRIBLE next two years and doesn't stand a chance in 2012.
192 AGM100 : Ok so they are stupid .... end the argument. Specific ? Just narrow is down to entitlement spending ..and its not democrats ..its politicians. Its po
193 NIKV69 : I would suggest you use the search feature and show me where I have said these things.
194 CaliAtenza : Im paraphrasing, sue me. But bassically you've called him an idiot, a "sorry excuse", etc, etc. The others on here keep whining on about communism, s
195 StarAC17 : No one has died that I can recall in Canada in the time that I have been alive waiting for urgent health care procedures, if they have it would be a
196 NIKV69 : Oh I get it guilt by association? Sad, that you can't debate the topic without grasping at the perverbial propaganda straws. It's fine the events of
197 MoltenRock : Ok, so you want to cut entitlement programs. Which ones should be cut or eliminated? Social Security? Medicare? Medicaid? Food stamps? Paying the int
198 OA412 : Was Bush or was Bush not the Commander in Chief who ultimately chose to fight a war with Iraq. The lies by both those on both sides of the aisle are
199 Arrow : One of the things that infuriates us is comments like this, made over and over again, that grossly misrepresent what goes on up here. No one "dies aw
200 CaliAtenza : Well the right is calling Obama a socialist/communist, correct? I dont think im wrong on that part and so far i have yet to see you deny that. I have
201 Ken777 : Look at the little apartments you can but in places like New York City, San Francisco, Boston for, say, $250,000. Then compare that to what you can g
202 CaliAtenza : She didnt help herself during the campaign either...what with all those "kill Obama" shouts at her rallies and her not denying them...
203 Tommy767 : A city which has just been ruined by local democrats in office for years. Really a damn shame that large scale gentrification has never hit Newark be
204 AirStairs : But by the same token, "conservatism" to you seems to be anyone who does not pass your "liberal" purity test, which first and foremost requires unwav
205 Ken777 : After paying into Social Security and Medicare during my working years I tend to think I paid my dues there. Looked forward to living long enough to
206 Luckyone : Nope, the automakers are/were collapsing under dunce-worthy business decisions made in the 80's (ie. their response to Toyota and Honda) and the bank
207 Post contains links DXing : Read on, your arguments are the same old ones that those on the left have tossed out time and time again. I'm up for some more batting practice. No o
208 AGM100 : Firstly , I do not believe that the liberals are somehow evil people. I know it gets heated on here, but I believe that they really do have good inte
209 NIKV69 : So exactly how many people that say it make up the right?
210 CaliAtenza : I dont really trust polls on the whole health care issue, but it seems to me that those who are happy with their insurance are the ones that are payi
211 ManuCH : Unfortunately, many threads about politics turn into name calling among some users and/or into flame baits. This one isn't any different. Therefore I
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