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Pelosi..Current Health Care Reform Dead!  
User currently offlineDXing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3914 times:

Hooray and Hallauiah it looks as if the current versions of the health care bills under consideration may actually be DOA!!!!!!  

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9DC8T585&show_article=1

Pelosi: I Dont See The Votes For It At This Time

WASHINGTON (AP) - Speaker Nancy Pelosi said Thursday that she lacks the votes to quickly move the Senate's sweeping health overhaul bill through the House, a potentially devastating blow to President Barack Obama's signature issue.


Thank goodness. Maybe now the democrats will get the hint and start taking the GOP a little more seriously. How many times do they have to get whacked on the head to understand that the public did not want the reform they (the democrats) were pushing???

        

Humorous is the change in attitude she now displays. Last line in the article:

"We're not in a big rush," Pelosi said. "Pause, reflect."

Gosh, what happened to "By July"? "By Labor day"? "By the end of the year"? Seemed like the rush was on then. Perhaps if she pauses and reflects long enough she'll see what it is that the publice really wants which is sensible, incrementally, non big government market based health care reform!!! Nahhhhh who am I kidding?   

[Edited 2010-01-21 12:23:46]

I changed the title of this thread to more accurately reflect the subject.

[Edited 2010-01-21 12:27:37]

168 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIpodguy7 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3912 times:

As a concerned citizen of this (once) great country, I sure hope it is. America has spoken, we do not want this socialist healthcare. Why fix the world's greatest healtcare system?


Next Trips: BNA-ORD-LHR-JTR, HER-CPH, CPH-ARN-CPH, CPH-LHR-DFW-BNA, BNA-DFW, DFW-BNA-DFW (X3)
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3880 times:



Quoting Ipodguy7 (Reply 1):
Why fix the world's greatest healtcare system?

Well because Pelosi and Obama may not think it's the greatest.

I agree though definately a great day in this country's history. The people spoke. What is funny is the GOP had nothing to do with it. She didn't have the votes of her own people. Don't forget that.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24823 posts, RR: 46
Reply 3, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3869 times:

 bigthumbsup 
Hopefully more rational thinking will set in, and the closed door, 2000 page crammed down socialist agenda will be  tombstone 

Going forward lets instead work to bring forward small but widely supportable individual legislation to address specific issues related to insurance and health care, such as tort reform, ability to purchase coverage across state lines, closing the medicare donut etc.

The attempt and time spent to potentially negatively effect health coverage for 270million Americans in order cover 30mil uninsured folks was simple politcal folly, particuarly when the nation today faces much more pressing issues.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offline2707200X From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 8445 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3870 times:

Whats so great about a healthcare system that lets insurance companies drop customers that have a pre existing condition or drop people newly diagnosed with an illness would any of you conservatives support this kind of health care.


"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." John Masefield Sea-Fever
User currently offlineWindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2707 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3846 times:



Quoting DXing (Thread starter):
"We're not in a big rush," Pelosi said. "Pause, reflect."

Another lie flying out of her mouth. How many Obama , Reid and Pelosi have utterd in the last year would take a long time to count. They seemed more like Moe, Larry and Curly trying to shove this debacle down our throats.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3824 times:



Quoting Ipodguy7 (Reply 1):
Why fix the world's greatest healtcare system?

A system that doesn't cover all of it's citzens?

A system that allows drug companies to advertise on TV? Only one other nation besides the US does that.

A system that doesn't negotiate prices with the drug companies, and allows them to rob, literally, those who need medication?

A system that fights and fights and fights to keep from paying legitimate claims from policy holders?

The greatest system? Only if you're lucky enough to afford it.

What a crock of crap that line was.


User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6785 posts, RR: 34
Reply 7, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3797 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 6):
A system that doesn't cover all of it's citzens?

No one is denied health care. No one.

And for those who can’t afford it, we already have a plethora of government programs to assist.

There are legitimate ways to address the cost crisis, but nuking the insurance companies—who actuarially are in business to make money—is not the sole way to go about doing it. Nor is mandating a govt option; nothing govt has done hasn’t turned to shit.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 6):
A system that allows drug companies to advertise on TV? Only one other nation besides the US does that.

Gasp! The free market in action!! Horrors! LOL

Thank God that we have the innovation, the free market economy and the means to create LIFE SAVING drugs in the first place. Costs? Well, should they give them away?

Now Falcon, we disagree on a lot of things admittedly. But I do wish we would do more to address the cost crisis—that’s the thing, not CARE. We have the best care on the planet, not even close. But addressing the costs, the portability, the malpractice concerns, zapping trial lawyers, and a host of already offered options that have been rejected in the liberal juggernaut steamroller are what we can do to improve the system.

The American people have spoken.

But if anyone actually believes this is dead, please don’t let your guard down. Don’t believe the leftists. Don’t ever drop your gloves, even for a moment. Brown’s election gives breathing room, but not a respite from the battle.


User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 5977 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3781 times:



Quoting Slider (Reply 7):
But if anyone actually believes this is dead, please don’t let your guard down. Don’t believe the leftists. Don’t ever drop your gloves, even for a moment. Brown’s election gives breathing room, but not a respite from the battle.

This pretty much sums up what is wrong with American politics these days. It's left vs right, full stop. Nothing about putting forward and discussing ideas about how a nation can progress towards greater prosperity, no sir, it's about looking at what letter is behind the proponent and then acting accordingly.

It's disgusting.


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8188 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3781 times:



Quoting DXing (Thread starter):
Maybe now the democrats will get the hint and start taking the GOP a little more seriously

Sure - if the Republicans can come up with ANYTHING but "tort reform" and "selling insurance across state lines". All that does is screw the patients and make insurance companies richer.

Quoting DXing (Thread starter):
How many times do they have to get whacked on the head to understand that the public did not want the reform they (the democrats) were pushing???

As long as employers are paying for most health care costs in this country the public will be easy to fool. If the McCain Plan for taxing all health care benefits from employers then all of a sudden things might change.

Quoting Ipodguy7 (Reply 1):
America has spoken, we do not want this socialist healthcare.

Like Medicare? Of Medicaid? Or that socialized medicine tax that is hidden in your private insurance premiums that help pay the care giver's surcharges?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 2):
Don't forget that.

People who have to pay for their own health insurance will be remembering it.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
, such as tort reform, ability to purchase coverage across state lines

Didn't take long for that insurance company pap to get listed as "desirable". Go check how much LOWER the health costs in Texas are. LMAO!

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 5):
They seemed more like Moe, Larry and Curly trying to shove this debacle down our throats.

Are we talking about the Dem's Health Care Reform or WMD in Iraq?  Yeah sure

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 6):
The greatest system? Only if you're lucky enough to afford it.

Bingo!

Quoting Slider (Reply 7):
No one is denied health care. No one.

Sure, and there is some nice tropical farmland in Arizona that is for sale

Quoting Slider (Reply 7):
And for those who can’t afford it, we already have a plethora of government programs to assist.

And some nice seaside properties for sale in Montana,


User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2057 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3770 times:



Quoting Ipodguy7 (Reply 1):
Why fix the world's greatest healtcare system?

Why indeed?  Big grin



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineDXing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3761 times:



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 9):
Sure - if the Republicans can come up with ANYTHING but "tort reform" and "selling insurance across state lines". All that does is screw the patients and make insurance companies richer.

For the 6th time:

http://www.gop.gov/solutions/healthcare

And of course you will ignore it again.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 9):
As long as employers are paying for most health care costs in this country the public will be easy to fool.

Still don't understand the meaning of a "benefit". It has more to do than just my employer paying for part of my health insurance. It has to do with using all the employees to lower costs for everyone, as well as relieving me of having to spend my free time shopping for insurance on my own. But of course all you see is cost. If they were to take the benefit away tomorrow then I would expect monetary compensation in return for what I would have to spend as well as the time I would have to spend shopping for it.

Perhaps now that Pelosi, Reid, and the President have finally realized they can't ram bad reform down our throats and get away with it they will start taking the GOP's ideas seriously and do some real reform that will actually accomplish something other than raise the national debt yet again.


User currently offlineAirport From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3756 times:



Quoting CPH-R (Reply 8):
This pretty much sums up what is wrong with American politics these days. It's left vs right, full stop. Nothing about putting forward and discussing ideas about how a nation can progress towards greater prosperity, no sir, it's about looking at what letter is behind the proponent and then acting accordingly.

It's disgusting.

 checkmark  Could not have been better said.


User currently offlineLuckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2163 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3750 times:



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 9):
Sure, and there is some nice tropical farmland in Arizona that is for sale

Care to do a little research before you spout off like that? Arizona has quite of farmland and a significant agriculture industry. It yields almost triple the national tonnage per acre of alfalfa, and is the nations No. 2 producer of cantaloupe, honeydew melons, head & leaf lettuce, spinach, broccoli, cauliflower and lemons. And then there's cotton. The entire west side of Phoenix used to be nothing BUT farms...


User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8401 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3750 times:

Fantastic, prepare the graveyards for America's non-affluent to go to.

Surely, there must be a way for Dems and Repos to get together and suck the marrow out of the American people, together, for the common good of politicians.

Now, if only we can get this "universal education" mumbo jumbo eliminated.  Yeah sure Then we can have a TRUE America, with real freedom.  Yeah sure


User currently onlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8788 posts, RR: 24
Reply 15, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3741 times:



Quoting Ipodguy7 (Reply 1):
Why fix the world's greatest healtcare system?

It's right up there in terms of quality of care. We can still make improvements however, especially on cost. There are also a number of fairness issues to deal with, such as throwing people off coverage even after 20+ years of paying premiums.

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 4):
Whats so great about a healthcare system that lets insurance companies drop customers that have a pre existing condition or drop people newly diagnosed with an illness would any of you conservatives support this kind of health care.

I agree entirely. But the bills the Dems put together were not the solution.

If the GOP were smart, they will seize the initiative and introduce a new bill, based on certain incremental steps that can be made to control costs, a patients bill-of-rights, and increase competition. Do those first, and fine-tune as necessary every few years, working towards the time that individual mandates can be viable. A proposal for a constitutional amendment wouldn't be a bad idea either.

And this time, concentrate on transparency, and NO SPECIAL INTERESTS. As this experience shows, health care is not something that people mind being done behind closed doors, like some defence procurement system. Health care affects everyone's bodies and wallets - they want to know what's going on.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 961 posts, RR: 51
Reply 16, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3718 times:



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 9):
Didn't take long for that insurance company pap to get listed as "desirable". Go check how much LOWER the health costs in Texas are. LMAO!

Tort reform was a resounding success in Texas. It is credited with a $51 billion dollar increase in the gross state product and the creation of half a million job positions since 2003. Health care isn't necessarily cheaper but Texans are wealthier and have better job security. It is a win for the public.

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 8):
This pretty much sums up what is wrong with American politics these days. It's left vs right, full stop. Nothing about putting forward and discussing ideas about how a nation can progress towards greater prosperity, no sir, it's about looking at what letter is behind the proponent and then acting accordingly.

It's disgusting.

Sorry, but I am not going to swallow my ideological differences and just go with the flow on policies that are more in tune with the Soviet Union than those that created the most powerful, prosperous, and freest nation in history. I'll be happy to discuss my ideas next January when this group of statist are thrown out of power.


User currently offlineDXing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3704 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 15):
If the GOP were smart, they will seize the initiative and introduce a new bill, based on certain incremental steps that can be made to control costs, a patients bill-of-rights, and increase competition.

About to be done. Look for a GOP package entitled "health care independence bill" in the next week or so. It will contain incremental steps regarding outlawing restrictions on pre-conditions, outlawing caps, outlawing dropping of insurance once your sick. In exchange democrats will have to accept cross state line insurance sales, tort reform, health insurance exchanges, tax credits for individuals and small businesses. Some of this they have already agreed upon, some will still have to be hammered out. Health care reform is still doable but the democratic party has to realize it will have to compromise to get the GOP vote and drop the party of NO crap. The public realizes they are not that and that they actually have some good ideas.


User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3694 times:

I got a nice chuckle out of Mike Luckovich's cartoon in today's AJC, and is definitely worth posting in this thread, as it definitely sums things up:



User currently offlineMoltenRock From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3682 times:



Quoting DXing (Reply 17):
About to be done. Look for a GOP package entitled "health care independence bill" in the next week or so. It will contain incremental steps regarding outlawing restrictions on pre-conditions, outlawing caps, outlawing dropping of insurance once your sick.

And Jesus Christ is returning the week after. The Republicans were in full control for 6 years with all levers of government, and nearly so for another 2 years from Jan. 2001 until Jan. 2009, and they didn't do a single, solitary thing about healthcare. Republican's like it as is, and aren't interested in making changes in it, which is fine that's their prerogative. The didn't do anything in 1994 to 2001 either, so just be honest about it.


User currently offlineEISHN From Ireland, joined Feb 2007, 1509 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3661 times:



Quoting Ipodguy7 (Reply 1):
Why fix the world's greatest healtcare system?

Yes, the healthcare system that ranks 37th in the world. The so called "Greatest Nation" on Earth ranks No. 37.

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
40 Brunei
41 New Zealand
42 Bahrain
43 Croatia
44 Qatar
45 Kuwait
46 Barbados
47 Thailand
48 Czech Republic
49 Malaysia
50 Poland
51 Dominican Republic
52 Tunisia
53 Jamaica
54 Venezuela
55 Albania
56 Seychelles
57 Paraguay
58 South Korea
59 Senegal
60 Philippines
61 Mexico
62 Slovakia
63 Egypt
64 Kazakhstan
65 Uruguay
66 Hungary
67 Trinidad and Tobago
68 Saint Lucia
69 Belize
70 Turkey
71 Nicaragua
72 Belarus
73 Lithuania
74 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
75 Argentina
76 Sri Lanka
77 Estonia
78 Guatemala
79 Ukraine
80 Solomon Islands
81 Algeria
82 Palau
83 Jordan
84 Mauritius
85 Grenada
86 Antigua and Barbuda
87 Libya
88 Bangladesh
89 Macedonia
90 Bosnia-Herzegovina
91 Lebanon
92 Indonesia
93 Iran
94 Bahamas
95 Panama
96 Fiji
97 Benin
98 Nauru
99 Romania
100 Saint Kitts and Nevis
101 Moldova
102 Bulgaria
103 Iraq
104 Armenia
105 Latvia
106 Yugoslavia
107 Cook Islands
108 Syria
109 Azerbaijan
110 Suriname
111 Ecuador
112 India
113 Cape Verde
114 Georgia
115 El Salvador
116 Tonga
117 Uzbekistan
118 Comoros
119 Samoa
120 Yemen
121 Niue
122 Pakistan
123 Micronesia
124 Bhutan
125 Brazil
126 Bolivia
127 Vanuatu
128 Guyana
129 Peru
130 Russia
131 Honduras
132 Burkina Faso
133 Sao Tome and Principe
134 Sudan
135 Ghana
136 Tuvalu
137 Ivory Coast
138 Haiti
139 Gabon
140 Kenya
141 Marshall Islands
142 Kiribati
143 Burundi
144 China
145 Mongolia
146 Gambia
147 Maldives
148 Papua New Guinea
149 Uganda
150 Nepal
151 Kyrgystan
152 Togo
153 Turkmenistan
154 Tajikistan
155 Zimbabwe
156 Tanzania
157 Djibouti
158 Eritrea
159 Madagascar
160 Vietnam
161 Guinea
162 Mauritania
163 Mali
164 Cameroon
165 Laos
166 Congo
167 North Korea
168 Namibia
169 Botswana
170 Niger
171 Equatorial Guinea
172 Rwanda
173 Afghanistan
174 Cambodia
175 South Africa
176 Guinea-Bissau
177 Swaziland
178 Chad
179 Somalia
180 Ethiopia
181 Angola
182 Zambia
183 Lesotho
184 Mozambique
185 Malawi
186 Liberia
187 Nigeria
188 Democratic Republic of the Congo
189 Central African Republic
190 Myanmar

Quoting Slider (Reply 7):
No one is denied health care. No one.

I'll agree with you there. My Uncle was billed 4,000 dollars for four hours, because he wasn't able to breath.

God Bless America indeed.



St. Flannan/ Fhlanain- She took off to find the footlights, And I took off for the sky
User currently offlineTommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3648 times:

Damn. I'm surprised Canada, Finland, and Denmark are just a few notches above the US. I've heard people rave about those countries uni. health care policies.


"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 961 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3637 times:



Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 19):
The Republicans were in full control for 6 years with all levers of government, and nearly so for another 2 years from Jan. 2001 until Jan. 2009, and they didn't do a single, solitary thing about healthcare.

 redflag   redflag   redflag 

Forgetting that Medicare Part D was passed in 2003 by Republicans? Forgetting the bi-partisan reauthorization of SCHIP in 2007?


User currently onlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8788 posts, RR: 24
Reply 23, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3618 times:



Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 19):
The Republicans were in full control for 6 years with all levers of government, and nearly so for another 2 years from Jan. 2001 until Jan. 2009,

And the fact that Republicans never had the necessary supermajority in the senate. Dems blocked many needed reforms, including proposals to bring the Mortgage industry under control some 5 years ago.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineAverageUser From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (4 years 6 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3595 times:

Quoting EISHN (Reply 20):

Yes, the healthcare system that ranks 37th in the world.

That's the 10 years old WHO 2000 ranking. WHO no longer produces such ranking tables. As far as the European systems go, one recent general comparison is here.
An intra-Canada comparison by the same institution.
The two together

[Edited 2010-01-21 17:32:29]

25 DXing : As has been stated many many times, you fight the battles you can win. The democrats had everything under the sun going for them over the past year.
26 DocLightning : Wait... with 10% of the population not covered, most of the covered population unable to get the care that they need because of bureaucratic issues a
27 DXing : Many of whom have been shown to be eligible for health care through a government program. Medicare, the government run program being the biggest deni
28 NIKV69 : Perhaps you failed to mention how much every citizen pays towards all those nations health care?
29 Ken777 : In the 50's it was logical for group insurance policies to be cheaper than individual policies because of clerical costs. That's not the case today -
30 Mdsh00 : You are 16-20. Have you worked in the health care industry? Have you really began to explore how much bulls**t is in our current healthcare system? I
31 Post contains links LH459 : I can't leave this one unanswered: http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/hlthaff.w5.63/DC1 It's far from a myth. A good friend of mine ha
32 AverageUser : The solution is to get everyone insured right at the maternity ward. Once you're birth-tagged in this country, you'll never lose coverage. Left or ri
33 Falcon84 : LOL. And we don't pay up the ass here? Even with a good health plan-and I have a pretty good one, I pay a pretty penny for all my prescriptions, and
34 NIKV69 : Again you cling to the weak, lame talking points you hear when you tune into Rachel Maddow and Ed Schultz. I didn't mean how much things cost when I
35 AverageUser : Which country has a 60% tax rate?
36 NIKV69 : Sweden and Denmark for starters.
37 WarRI1 : Rather pathetic is it not? What a crock says it all. What can you expect from the talking heads of the far right. Humanity! I do not think so. I pers
38 AverageUser : Where is that info from?
39 Cws818 : Maybe they couldn't afford it - perhaps they were poor, not irresponsible, but poor. Is that their fault too?
40 Post contains links LAXintl : Sweden has tax rates as high as 60%, with average tax burden of 47.8%, while Denmarks average burden is 48.4%. http://www.thelocal.se/10402/20080311/
41 Post contains links AverageUser : At a flat 28 percent, Swedish corporate tax rate is significantly lower than in many other European countries and OECD nations. Possibilities to defer
42 Baroque : Ever tried adding the cost of US health insurance to the tax rate. And Sweden and Denmark do not fuss about pre-existing conditions and deductibles a
43 FlybaurLAX : I don't get why people think that some "socialist" ideas are so terrible. Would it be so terrible to have universal health care? If you think socialis
44 Falcon84 : I've seen Rachal Maddow a few time, and have not a clue who Ed Schultz even is. Boy, talk about a conservative who is so wrapped up in his hatred tha
45 LAXintl : Um, both the pharma industry and the health care industry supported the Democratic bills. Why? They would get 30mil new members overnight, and would
46 Post contains images Falcon84 :    You got it backwards. The Democrats originally wanted provisions that would make all insurance available in all states, and that would have the
47 Post contains links Dreadnought : Ed Schulz: the MSNBC host and radio host who admitted he’d have no moral problems committing voter fraud in order to defeat Brown on his Jan 15th r
48 LAXintl : Yes individual rights is being able to choose if and how to get insurance, not the government telling every American they must have insurance and gre
49 Dreadnought : Nope. They ridiculed all attempts at dropping interstate barriers, including right here in this forum. Nope. If you will recall, they made a deal wit
50 MoltenRock : In any event the oil & chemical companies in America are dancing a jig since healthcare has sucked up so much oxygen that the House energy reform bill
51 L-188 : Well Obama does seem to have the support of people who don't have any sort of economic education. It may gain him some supporters. I have had my late
52 Ken777 : You are casually assuming that people without health insurance simply don't want to pay for it. No thought to their ability to pay the costs of a fam
53 AverageUser : Let's hope the doctor was not late, was dexterous when operating, had no sinister thoughts, and that his patients usually didn't head south!
54 DXing : And that's a shame but the article leaves a lot of questions unanswered. In 2001, 1.458 million American families filed for bankruptcy. Personal bank
55 AverageUser : If you read carefully which I'm sure you did, there was no mention by myself of a "government", only of the fact that everyone automatically gets the
56 Slider : Well, this is just nonsensical. Democrats control the entire political process at present time in this country. If they wanted true common-sense refo
57 Cws818 : No, the thing is that they have a different view of what the right thing is than you do.
58 Ken777 : Unlike the Purity Test Republicans the Democrats cover the full political spectrum. That makes for some interesting politics, but doesn't mean that D
59 Usair320 : Good. I hope (although I doubt it will happen due to excessive partisanship) we can start this thing over. I personally would like to see provisions l
60 Tommy767 : Actually come to think of it, my family has had a bad experience with the Canadian Health Care system. My Dad got a seizure in August 2006 at a hotel
61 Slider : I disagree. There is such a thing as right and wrong. It is wrong to restrict the freedom of allowing citizens to control and manage their own health
62 AverageUser : What harm did the said delay cause him? Plus I'm sure someone did see him -- you don't loiter in an E.R. for three hours unnoticed, and the ambulance
63 Tommy767 : He had a brain tumor that required brain surgery 3 different times during the 1990s. He did end up loitering for a long while after the ambulance dro
64 Post contains links BA : For progressive-minded individuals who want universal health care in this country, I think it's time to start pushing for it on the state level in pro
65 Arrow : Anecdotal stuff like this doesn't necessarily indicate the system is bad, You say he never experienced this in the US -- but he could have because th
66 Ken777 : 3 hours is no surprise in the US either. Did he go in by ambulance, or does the hospital simply know to throw him a bone to keep him quiet. My wife w
67 DXing : Are you going to deny that the overwhelming majority of health care in Finland is government run? I think we've been here before. I had no complaint,
68 Post contains links AverageUser : Naturally a patient may be very disstressed when admitted to an E.R. However, you reveal (bit by bit) that the seizures of your dad were brain tumour
69 Dreadnought : And that would be the best place to do it, at a state level, rather than a national level. One of the things that made this country great is how econ
70 Tommy767 : Actually this wasn't a typical seizure this was pretty close to death from what I understand. He didn't have his proper medication on him so it was i
71 StuckInCA : I feel sad for the people who don't realize how messed up our healthcare system is. I hope none of you find yourselves in a position to realize it the
72 StarAC17 : The biggest issue with American health care which very few people will say in the media is that it is a for profit system and with a for profit syste
73 AirStairs : I would gladly give up Medicare. It's not politically possible, but I wish it were. Same with social security. Have you talked to anyone in the Frenc
74 AverageUser : Well those scars in the brain tissue were a result of a cancer of the brain that was operated? There is no reason for a person with a known epileptic
75 Post contains links DXing : Again, as before, you are making no sense. ???From the link you provided, going to the home page and selecting Operations: http://www.kela.fi/in/inte
76 Tommy767 : I'm not going to question or be critical of a then 50 year old man who said he felt like he was about to die in Montreal because of an unexpected sei
77 WarRI1 : I cannot help but notice the example states are all in the South, and probably Right to work states. It seems to me that we are still into state comp
78 AverageUser : Kela does not run the hospitals or hire the doctors. Kela is the public arm under the Parliament that finances the bulk of public healthcare, the res
79 Baroque : So you admit they are all a bunch of commie bastards then, trying to contaminate the patients precious bodily fluids. Signed Brigadier General Jack D
80 AverageUser : Yes, the bug of communalism is lurking everywhere to eat away your hard-earned flesh and fat. Once it gets a hold, there's no doctor in the world to
81 Ken777 : Young people can also get some nasty/expensive medical problems. Cancer at that age can be vicious - good friends have lost a son and a daughter in t
82 Luckyone : That is idiotic. Most doctors are saddled with AT LEAST $250,000 in debt before ever getting to lay their hands on people who could have largely and
83 D L X : I didn't realize France was fixing their healthcare. Link?
84 CALTECH : Looks like it was way too radical for 'liberal' Massachusetts. American people like to be in the center, as it seems. Hurrah !
85 Ken777 : And how many tax dollars go into their education and specialist training? Forget the K-12 tax dollars - that goes (or should go) to everyone. I'm sti
86 Luckyone : You're still footing the bill through taxes. Well, somebody is.
87 Yellowstone : That's a poor conclusion to draw. Massachusetts already has (nearly) universal health care, and despite the complaints of some members of this board,
88 Post contains links Andaman : http://www.healthpowerhouse.com/file...%20Index%202009%20FINAL%5B1%5D.pdf An interesting report, especially for me who have family both in Canada and
89 Yellowstone : I'd be interested to see where the US ranks on their metric.
90 DXing : As long as the government controls the money, they control the care. Nothing could be simpler to grasp. They can also get hit by cars, die in house f
91 Andaman : Some people like it that way I think it's rather useless to compare Nordic countries and US in this matter, the societies are different in many ways.
92 Ken777 : including Senator-Elect Brown who voted for it. As long as the private insurance companies control the money they control the care. That is as easy t
93 AverageUser : Well, then: as long as the insurance company controls the money, they control the care. Nothing could be simpler to grasp.
94 Post contains links Aa757first : Don't you think that's a bit dramatic? Those in the know (doctors or practice managers, depending on the type of practice) will tell you those with t
95 Post contains links DXing : And as I've said over and over, that's great, for those countries that have and want it that way. I'm glad that someone from Finland gets that. Not w
96 Baroque : Best not catch a communicable disease then or sympathy might be at a premium. (Yes pun intended!!) Wonder what we could charge (for the sympathy prem
97 AverageUser : Now Andaman you traitor, you can't possibly be happy in our nanny state. Most Finns are wrong, high taxes are wrong, public healthare partly funded b
98 Dreadnought : Don't be silly. If the Finns want it, fine. We don't, as all the polls show. We want reforms, to fix some of the problems and lower costs, but we don
99 Cws818 : Please define and/or quantify "we."
100 AverageUser : Neither did the designers here, so therefore there's an insulation layer between the government and the organisations providing care. The government
101 Dreadnought : That's a key difference. No question. Personally I like the Swiss system of individual mandates.
102 EA772LR : Which ought to tell you something about the P.O.S. garbage bill currently floating around in the House/Senate...(well they're both garbage bills). Wh
103 Arrow : I love it when those opposed to "socialized" health care trot out justifications for socialized police and fire departments (and lets not forget the
104 Ken777 : Looks like that means only people with health insurance coverage were polled. And a whopping 20% were dissatisfied with their coverage. I'll bet 5¢
105 Post contains links Dreadnought : We have, repeatedly. You just ignore it. For example: Obama Healthcare Speech To Congress (by UAL747 Sep 9 2009 in Non Aviation)?threadid=2125711&sea
106 Luckyone : Fine then, let them pay the taxes for it and stay out of the pockets of the people who are happy. Again, obviously you have very little idea of how m
107 EA772LR : Correct. I can vouch for this...as my older brother is a doctor. Absolutely. I was just in Hawaii visiting my brother. We had a lengthy discussion of
108 DXing : And has been shown your country pays substantially less than ours does for just doctors and nurses. Their pay is set by the government which belies y
109 Post contains links Aa757first : Let's see what else I'll finance in a public run system: o An overweight woman goes to the doctor's. He tells her she's overweight and has pre-diabet
110 CaliAtenza : Thats what i said in the other thread that got locked. I really dont have faith in any of these polls being conducted because they just end up pollin
111 FlyPNS1 : But we pay for you (and all the other examples you cited) because we share common insurance pools and hospitals charge rates to the insured so as to
112 EA772LR : You're missing the point. Here it is: If you pay doctors less and less, then you'll see a comparable trend in the drop in people pursuing careers in
113 Aa757first : But now I voluntarily consent to it by purchasing insurance. All variations in the health care proposal somehow limit my decisions in deciding to pur
114 Post contains links Arrow : Well, you could get a good start with administrative costs. From a study comparing Canada and the US: "A study amassed data from the United States an
115 Mdsh00 : Not tooting my own horn here but I wouldn't spend 12 years of my post High School life, and $250,000 in debt if I were paid a mediocre wage and high
116 Pilotsmoe : That's because most endos only see diabetic patients. You'll be paying for her once she has an MI or develops ESRD and needs hemodialysis, automatic
117 Post contains links Aa757first : As I said, that's not half. I'm sorry. I was aware that the ban was lifted and I didn't make that clear in my initial post. However, the ban was like
118 Aa757first : Right. Isn't it silly that we're forced to pay for people's chronic negligence?
119 FlyPNS1 : The difference is that when you choose to see a doctor (that maybe you don't need to see), there is a cost to society. The color shirt you wear reall
120 Luckyone : Patients could if malpractice premiums weren't so high. They make up a huge percentage of physicians overhead. Different specialists pay different ra
121 PLANAR : I find it strange this anti-government attitude of many people (mainly perpetrated by right-wing nut jobs on Fox). This is YOUR government and YOUR c
122 SKYSERVICE_330 : Do you have anything to support this? If not, one could just as easily state that "the ban was likely motivated by the food and drug regulator wantin
123 Pilotsmoe : what should we do, let them die? That's a little cold isn't it?
124 Aa757first : If I visit my doctor, I purchase a service paid for either by personal cash or private insurance. The impact to society is the same if I bought a shi
125 FlyPNS1 : Not quite. If you used insurance, your insurance company takes a financial hit. The cost of that hit is passed onto to you and everyone else in the f
126 Baroque : Sorry to learn that you are an overweight teenage woman with an IV drug problem and five children none of whom is inoculated. That must be difficult.
127 MoltenRock : Unfortunately, it seems as American Presidents are only capable of war mongering and tweaking tax policy a couple of percent up or down. Anything to
128 Baroque : Harsh but, well difficult to dispute!!
129 Ken777 : I've been through CT Scans, PET/CT Scans, had a MRI. And I've seen the bills over the years. Nothing close to the $700,000.00 for all the problems my
130 PPVRA : There are a number of reasons why this can be. One - accounting for government is different than private sector accounting. Typically, when you socia
131 Arrow : You need to let this go because frankly, you don't know what you're talking about. I just did another search and found nothing to suggest that the sh
132 Aa757first : If you have type two diabetes and asthma, yet you continue to eat a high calorie, high fat diet while smoking, you should not pay the same as someone
133 Ken777 : I've been through CT Scans, PET/CT Scans, had a MRI. And I've seen the bills over the years. Nothing close to the $700,000.00 for all the problems my
134 Post contains links Flanker : A very simple proposal. Number one-- let families and businesses buy health insurance across state lines. Number two-- allow individuals, small busine
135 Post contains links DXing : That 1 in 3 covers all age groups. The claim was that young people somehow have mysteriously started contracting cancer at a far higher rate than eve
136 MoltenRock : How would you know if they are doing x, y, and z? Who's going to monitor that? The thing is with healthcare, everyone ends up needing it at one point
137 Baroque : You appeared to be arguing that as you considered a communicable disease and unlikely event, you did not need insurance against that event. So all of
138 CaliAtenza : I know we have been talking about Canada's Health System in this thread, but no one has actually showed me why exactly it would be bad to adapt a simi
139 FlyPNS1 : I agree with you that those who engage in risky/poor behaviors should pay more. However, it is impossible to really enforce this. Are the insurance c
140 Luckyone : Well it is hard to monitor people's eating habits, however, many of these problems are smoking related as well. That's a very easy one to monitor.
141 PPVRA : There are different ways to approach hereditary diseases, but one sure way that it shouldn't be approached, is to spread the cost of these people to
142 AverageUser : I wonder if this has been invented already anywhere in the world? I don't know which basic administration book would give you that idea? The public s
143 Post contains links Ken777 : One would assume that the insurance company would have a reserve that is used to pay claims. They have sufficient data to pretty well estimate the nu
144 AverageUser : Yep, and people like Nancy Reagan started demanding federal spending on Alzheimer research the minute her dear husband fell ill with the disease.
145 PPVRA : You wouldn't, because you are merely externalizing the costs. They don't disappear. Payback to the insurance companies is the huge insurance costs do
146 Post contains links PPVRA : ". . .public-sector accounting is significantly different from that found in the private sector. . . even [in] those industrialised countries that ar
147 Post contains links AverageUser : Well, as I said, e.g. the public entity running say our university hospital ( http://www.pshp.fi ) does everything that a private enterprise would do
148 Post contains links DXing : Again you confine it to the minority. Do you think the 85% of people that have health insurance and aren't terribly sick would have a problem? 1 in 8
149 MoltenRock : So you are for wholesale abortions tripling by parents eh? You're saying, "hey if you are unlucky and have a child that's sick and needs lots of medi
150 MoltenRock : But what about the other extremely expensive medical problems children can be born with? Or do you favor aborting the expensive ones? How old does th
151 Post contains images Ken777 : There is no free lunch. If a person heads to the ER with a major heart or stroke they are gong to be generating costs. If they do not have private in
152 MoltenRock : Texas already has the 2nd worst health care system in the US as is. Take a look at blue states vs. red states and the uninsured #s in each. Those whi
153 Post contains links DXing : NIce try at deflecting the argument. If you have specifics state them. No which is exactly why I used the term "most likely". If you can disprove tha
154 PPVRA : WHAT? Don't put words in my mouth. How hard is it to understand that if you add $5 here, there, and for dozens and dozens of other "little" things co
155 PPVRA : Yes, but if you or someone else pays that cost directly out of pocket, these costs don't get spread. Case in point is my contact lenses. As is, I cou
156 MoltenRock : And how hard is it to understand that EVERYONE already pays for it now. If someone who can't get insured gets sick, is taken to the hospital, runs up
157 PPVRA : I don't disagree with that, and when I said the thing about externalizing costs versus internalizing, I was talking about comparing the US system to
158 StuckInCA : If this assertion were of much merit then basically every other developed country would have woefully incapable doctors, right? Seems not to be the c
159 Luckyone : True, however, there is a fundamental difference in how they get there, as well. 1) education in most European countries is free. 2) They do not do a
160 MoltenRock : I agree fully. That said, I'm not sure where you grew up, but I never had a class that taught me about health insurance in high school, or college un
161 StuckInCA : There's truth in all of that, but that's not a reason to keep the status quo. If the number of applicants drops, then perhaps medical schools will ha
162 EA772LR : What about the 4-8 years of post-graduate/residency time?? If you drop the income level of doctors anymore, we'll not only continue to see a drop in
163 Luckyone : If for just two years admissions and applications noticeably dropped you're going to have a lag of seven to eight years PER YEAR of the drop to catch
164 MoltenRock : Most doctors are underpaid for what they do IMO. I have two friends that are both doctors (GPs), and neither of them or their other fellow GPs feel i
165 Luckyone : Ah but, replace that with government paperwork and it's a wash. Medicare claims aren't exactly trivial procedures.
166 Post contains links PPVRA : That is very true. But in general, even if you get a discount, you have that extra overhead of getting the discount and managing the process, which w
167 Post contains links CALTECH : Very inaccurate statement there. http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Dail...rts/2009/June/30/Mass-Numbers.aspx "Only 26 percent of likely voters in Massa
168 Flighty : Many professions require 4-8 years of postgraduate studies. Including Architects. Medical doctors are not the only people with an advanced education;
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