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Bible Rifles  
User currently offlineMoltenRock From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (4 years 9 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 4039 times:

As some of you may have been following, over the past couple of weeks, a defense contractor (Trijicon Inc., Wixom, MI) which sells weapons to the military, and in this case rifle sights has come under fire for stamping bible verses on their weapons that troops in Iraq, Afghanistan and other nations where American boys and girls are actively fighting in, have stamped on them. Around 1/3 of a million rifle sights have been made for this military, and its deployment.

Upon learning of this Gen. David Petraeus (head military dude in charge in the middle east) said it was "disturbing". The US military is barred from preaching, proselytizing, or even trying to convert Iraqis or Afghanis due to the religious sensitivity issue.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,583566,00.html

An official spokesman for the US military had been claiming, that "the Trijicon sights didn't violate the ban" and was akin to the term "In God We Trust" on US coinage. Needless to say this set the FOX news pinheads a gaga with insipid, childish, retorts.

As Steve Doocey from Fox News said on the Bible rifles...."If Anybody's Making This A Religious Thing, The Terrorists 'Started It".


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU6_s9txcCE


So, should the military allow these to stay on their rifles or should they go?

78 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3790 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (4 years 9 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3990 times:

Well, I guess that officially makes it a crusade...

 duck 



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineHomer71 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 2245 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (4 years 9 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3987 times:

Looks like the contractor will be removing the "offending" stamps.

Case closed, non-issue, big deal, move along, nothing to see here, etc.



"On spaceship earth there are no passengers...only crew."
User currently offlineCgnnrw From Germany, joined May 2005, 1164 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (4 years 9 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3977 times:

Did the gov't contract mandate these messages be put on the weapons? No, then why did the contractor do it?

If I hire someone to paint my house and give him specific details on how I want it done I expect him to follow my directive. I won't accept his decision to paint whatever he likes without checking with me first. So the gov't wants them to stop putting Biblical references on their rifles because they are paying for those rifles. If the gov't instructs the contractor topaint the rifles bright orange and pay for bright orange rifles then the contractor has no choice but do what the gov't wants.



A330 man.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (4 years 9 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3956 times:

FYI, the verse number stamped on the rifles is John 8:12:

"I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

It is an inspirational passage, meant to comfort those going into danger.

Personally I don't care if they stay or not.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8184 posts, RR: 26
Reply 5, posted (4 years 9 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3932 times:



Quoting Homer71 (Reply 2):
Looks like the contractor will be removing the "offending" stamps.

Gee I wonder why?

The Marine Corps, another major customer of the telescoping sights that allow troops to pinpoint targets day or night, says service acquisition officials plan to meet with the contractor, Trijicon of Wixom, Mich., to discuss future purchases of the company's gear.

Translation: knock this stuff off before it motivates the enemy more than they already are.

Mikey Weinstein, president of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, says the Trijicon sights could give the Taliban and other enemy forces a propaganda tool: that American troops are Christian crusaders invading Muslim countries.

"I don't have to wonder for a nanosecond how the American public would react if citations from the Quran were being inscribed onto these U.S. armed forces gun sights instead of New Testament citations," Weinstein said.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...us_military_weapons_bible_passages

Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 3):
Did the gov't contract mandate these messages be put on the weapons? No, then why did the contractor do it?

Hell no. It's illegal. The company or its managers have personal views that they wanted reflected in their products. The Yahoo article says the founder of the company began the practice. Their attitude on the issue is plainly dumb:

Trijicon said it has been longstanding company practice to put the Scripture citations on the equipment. Tom Munson, Trijicon's director of sales and marketing, said the company has never received any complaints until now.

"We don't publicize this," Munson said in a recent interview. "It's not something we make a big deal out of. But when asked, we say, 'Yes, it's there.'"


Why would it even be necessary?  Yeah sure Just keep going to Church if you love Scripture so much. Not sure how Jesus would feel about it being inscribed on weapons anyhow.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
FYI, the verse number stamped on the rifles is John 8:12:

"I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

It is an inspirational passage, meant to comfort those going into danger.

That's not the only passage in use..

The Trijicon Reflex sight is stamped with 2COR4:6, a reference to part of the second letter of Paul to the Corinthians: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ"

Personally I'm glad the USMC and whomever else has moved quickly to get these morons to stop putting these on their products. I also feel it's irresponsible of the media to report stories like these since they don't have any bearing on anything on domestic soil but read badly abroad.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6609 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (4 years 9 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3929 times:
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Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
"I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

It is an inspirational passage, meant to comfort those going into danger.

I am sure that there are many other passages from other Holy Books that are just as inspirational. Would a verse from the Koran or the Torah be taken as lightly?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineUal777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1558 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (4 years 9 months 5 days ago) and read 3869 times:



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 5):

Translation: knock this stuff off before it motivates the enemy more than they already are.

No, the USMC has known about these things for a while. In fact MOST guys like that sort of thing, and the others do not care. It sounds more likely that some politicians are making phone calls.

Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 3):
Did the gov't contract mandate these messages be put on the weapons? No, then why did the contractor do it?

It is a small "personal touch." Its very small to see, and the Taliban or Iraqi training with it would never notice it unless it was pointed out to them.

The media is idiotic for reporting this. Absolutely stupid.



It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
User currently offlineMoltenRock From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (4 years 9 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3823 times:



Quoting Ual777 (Reply 7):
The media is idiotic for reporting this. Absolutely stupid.

Seems like the company is idiotic for doing it in the first place, seeing it broke the law.

You know that whole separation of church and state thing and all, is moot just so long as its of dubious xtian background. What about our fighting men and women who are Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Atheist, or other?

Would the reaction from Christians be "hey it's an inspirational message" if it had been Sura 2:193 from the Qur'an? How can anyone for a moment think that stamping the teachings of a pacifist like Jesus on a weapon of war to slaughter others is ok? Talk about WWJD moment some Christians need to take is an understatement.

I'd bet $100 this guy's true motivation for adding scripture to his company's weapons is to soothe his conscience about claiming to be a "devout Christian" while making instruments of war. The owner Glyn Bindon, crashed and died in an airplane accident a few years ago near get this.... "Gunsight Mountain". LOL. Karma.

http://homernews.com/stories/091103/new_091103new010001.shtml


User currently offlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5037 posts, RR: 44
Reply 9, posted (4 years 9 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3811 times:

..and people still wonder why many Muslims think the current wars are in fact wars against their religion, by Christians. With shit like this, no wonder...

User currently offlineSpringbok747 From Australia, joined Nov 2004, 4387 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (4 years 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3798 times:



Quoting Ual777 (Reply 7):
The media is idiotic for reporting this. Absolutely stupid.

No, the company is idiotic for printing religious stuff. They have no business bringing religion into any of their products.



אני תומך בישראל
User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7309 posts, RR: 85
Reply 11, posted (4 years 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3789 times:
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Drop that righteous hammer of God!  bigthumbsup  Relative is in the suck and wrote Ps. 23:4 on the stock of his rifle.  yes  I guess it was a slow news day. I own two Trijicon (reflex) and have no plans to not give them my business in the future.


I miss the old Anet.
User currently offlineFuturePilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3783 times:



Quoting Scorpio (Reply 9):
..and people still wonder why many Muslims think the current wars are in fact wars against their religion, by Christians. With shit like this, no wonder...

Oh puhleez. Gimme a friggin break. Those SOB's declared holy war long before some contracting agency decided to print a harmless bible verse on the back of a damn rifle scope. It should not have been printed there, but if these religious fanatics think it is holy war, we DID NOT give them that idea, so stop blaming everything on religion.



"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (4 years 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3777 times:



Quoting MoltenRock (Thread starter):
So, should the military allow these to stay on their rifles or should they go?

No. Didn't President Bush say this was not a war against Islam? Then why preach another faith when it wasn't wanted? As was said above, it makes it look like another Crusade.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Personally I don't care if they stay or not.

Personally, I do, because that's not part of the mission, to spread the word of Jesus. Leave that to the Church, not the military.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 12):
Oh puhleez. Gimme a friggin break. Those SOB's declared holy war long before some contracting agency decided to print a harmless bible verse on the back of a damn rifle scope.

So two wrongs make a right, eh? Again, this isn't about which faith is better-it's about people over their perverting their fath, and killing in the Name of Allah. Should we reciprocate by killing in the name of Jesus Christ? I don't think so.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19942 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (4 years 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3774 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):

"I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

An odd choice for a weapon, don't you think? Then again... whoever is IN FRONT of the weapon will die and whoever FOLLOWS the weapon might have the light of life.  duck 


User currently offlineVikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10102 posts, RR: 26
Reply 15, posted (4 years 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3763 times:
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Quoting Ual777 (Reply 7):
The media is idiotic for reporting this. Absolutely stupid.

Why? I'd say just the opposite. Don't forget that the media is a business like any other. They're there to make money. I'd say this is certainly "newsworthy", in the sense that it brings exposure to media outlets.

If it causes a problem when it's reported, then I'd say the company was idiotic for putting it on there in the first place. You never know what might get noticed.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5037 posts, RR: 44
Reply 16, posted (4 years 9 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3747 times:

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 12):
Oh puhleez. Gimme a friggin break. Those SOB's declared holy war long before some contracting agency decided to print a harmless bible verse on the back of a damn rifle scope.

How about I don't 'give you a friggin' break'? Yes, religious fanatics declared holy war years ago. But the West, including the U.S., have gone out of their way to DENY that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are faught for religious reasons, or are wars against Islam. This is met with a lot of skepticism by many Muslims, including the moderate ones who we NEED on our side if we want a passing chance of ever winning the struggle against fanaticism. Skepticism which in the past has already been fueled by such things as Bush's 'crusade' remark, or the SecDef spicing up his reports on the war with Bible verses.

Now this crap comes along, and it's not going to help the cause one bit. I don't give a damn what the fanatics on the other side think about these verses, but we SHOULD care what the moderate Muslims think about this, because it's precisely things like this which can push a few more over to the fanatical side. And we don't need that.

[Edited 2010-01-22 13:05:39]

User currently offlineZANL188 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 3546 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 9 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3691 times:
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Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
"I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
An odd choice for a weapon, don't you think? Then again... whoever is IN FRONT of the weapon will die and whoever FOLLOWS the weapon might have the light of life.

The Bible verse is on a night vision sight not the weapon itself. A starlight, starbright or NVG type of attachment enabling the user to sight the weapon at night.



Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8184 posts, RR: 26
Reply 18, posted (4 years 9 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3674 times:

Quoting Ual777 (Reply 7):
In fact MOST guys like that sort of thing, and the others do not care. It sounds more likely that some politicians are making phone calls.

Clearly not the case as the article cites a military watchdog group who has been contacted by active personnel who complain about it anonymously.

[Edited 2010-01-22 15:34:29 by EI787]


If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 17
Reply 19, posted (4 years 9 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3671 times:



Quoting Scorpio (Reply 16):
moderate Muslims think about this

Although I see your point and I understand the idea .... in my opinion the verses are not on the scopes to prove Christianities superiority to Islam. And I will be honest ...if a person ( Muslim) does not understand that we are not "fighting against Islam" then what can we ever do to prove the point.?

When we hear the extremists say " America is attacking Islam" what does that even mean ? If we were going to attack Islam .... what would we do ? I really do not think a attack on Islam would be anything like our forces are doing now . Its ridiculous to even worry about a perception that we are attacking Islam ... think about it. It is a propaganda ploy by them to instill caution and fear in us ... I reject it ..totally.

Many of our troops gather and pray everyday before they go out on missions ... I guess this could be used in AQ propaganda as well.



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineSantosdumont From Brazil, joined Dec 2003, 1201 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (4 years 9 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3636 times:

The verses cited seem tepid. I mean, if you're gonna put a verse on a rifle make it the one that Samuel L. Jackson cited in Pulp Fiction (Ezekiel 25:17)

One alternative could be to inscribe E Pluribus Unum on the sight.



"Pursuit Of Truth No Matter Where It Lies" -- Metallica
User currently offlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5037 posts, RR: 44
Reply 21, posted (4 years 9 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3573 times:



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 19):
in my opinion the verses are not on the scopes to prove Christianities superiority to Islam.

Never said they were, but that IS how they will be used by extremists to try and convince moderates that this is a war against Islam, not just against the radicals. And in combination with Bush calling it a crusade, and the SecDef spicing up his report with Bible verses, it's not exactly a surprise that quite a few Muslims are at least very skeptic about what these wars are about...

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 19):
Its ridiculous to even worry about a perception that we are attacking Islam ... think about it.

I don't care what the radicals think, but I do care what the moderates think, because if they start being convinced this is an attack against their whole religion (and crap like this isn't exactly going to help to convince them otherwise) then we have an even more serious problem on our hands.


User currently offlineHercPPMX From United States of America, joined May 2008, 196 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 9 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3566 times:

I wonder how many military members actually noticed it? I hadn't even noticed it until someone pointed it out 3 days ago. Its stamped in very small letters at the base of the optic right above the clamp that holds the optic to the mounting rail of the weapon. Personally I'm not a religious person and don't mind that it's there. I understand that the verse being there could anger some. In any case Trijicon could write anything they want on the optic and i'd still prefer it to steel sights.


C-130; it's a love-hate relationship
User currently offlineCALTECH From Poland, joined May 2007, 2283 posts, RR: 26
Reply 23, posted (4 years 9 months 4 days ago) and read 3516 times:



Quoting Francoflier (Reply 1):
Well, I guess that officially makes it a crusade...

A Crusade Against Jihad. Can live with that.



UNITED We Stand
User currently offlineJohns624 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 927 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 9 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3470 times:

I"ve been dealing with Trijicon for years and never noticed it until this story brought it up and even then it was hard to see.

25 Superfly : My car was made there in Wixom. I do not like the idea of religious quotes on rifles used for US military personnel. Have any of them complained abou
26 IAirAllie : You are comparing a service to a product. Poor analogy. It sounds to me like the references were there before the government made the choice to purch
27 Fridgmus : Hi Doc, actually it's not the weapon, but the sight that is mounted on the weapon. It enables the shooter to see their target better in daylight and
28 Springbok747 : But they are stupid to put religious references on something that is totally irrelevant to religion. Yes they were hardly noticeable and yes the casu
29 OA412 : I'm pretty sure we all know the answer to this one... Exactly! Absolutely idiotic move which only inflames sensibilities. Excellent post. Exactly. Wh
30 HercPPMX : With how many are already in service I doubt that it will be removed from current ACOG's (RCO to military members). I see the quote being removed fro
31 Johns624 : 30 seconds with a Dremel tool and you're done.
32 IAirAllie : They are hardly the first company do do so. In and out burger has scripture references on their packaging, Alaska has prayer cards. Are they stupid t
33 Springbok747 : I wasn't aware of that. Yes. Putting religious stuff on something like burger packaging is stupid. Inside jokes etc are jokes. Religious stuff is mor
34 Johns624 : The problem wasn't that the company put text on their products, the problem was the government didn't ask them to remove it when they let the contract
35 DocLightning : Sure, sure. Semantics. Guns don't kill people, bullets do. It's a weapon component that promises the light of life... I find that ironic. If In-N-Out
36 IAirAllie : This is a private company just like In-n-out so I'm not sure what the distinction is. Why one private company has that right while another does not.
37 FuturePilot16 : What did you buy?
38 Johnboy : Which is why I don't give my money to these two businesses.
39 Johns624 : Alaska is a business? A TA01- the original 4x32 non fiber optic ACOG. They have a special purchase plan for people in the firearms business.
40 OA412 : Alaska Airlines. They distribute prayer cards with their meals.
41 Johns624 : Their food is that bad?
42 DocLightning : It is different. The government should not be sponsoring an institution of religion. The Bible represents one (maybe two) institutions of religion. O
43 Johns624 : The problem with that is that Trijicon doesn't really have any competition. They were the innovators in tritium sights. Elcan in Canada makes a simil
44 Ronglimeng : It occurs to me that Trijicon is kind of gutless in this whole issue. First of all, someone with a religious bent in their 250-employee family-run com
45 Evomutant : Who cares? A meaningless few letters and numbers pointing to meaningless pieces of guff in some book. Ho hum.
46 Mt99 : Would you be offended if there were Koran verses instead?
47 HercPPMX : As Long as the sight functions as designed with I need it to, I really don't mind what is written on it, bible, koran, or any other religious book.
48 Flighty : This has always been a Judeo-Christian crusade. It was started in that spirit. This is the kind of thing that hardens our enemy against us. Therefore,
49 Johns624 : Wrong. Do you know what treason is? It's the government's fault for not requesting it in the first place. As far as remanufacturing them, not needed,
50 HercPPMX : This would never happen, Cost, Logistics, and impact for military personnel currently deployed. Cost. 300,000+ units at around $1000 a unit. Logistic
51 Flighty : That would be practical. But this should be an operational priority. Part of winning a war is avoiding this type of mistake. People who are so carele
52 CALTECH : Why would there be Koranic verses on U.S. weapons. That makes no sense. Are you offended by the Koranic verses on headbands and banners in videos of
53 Mt99 : Why would there be Bible verses on US weapons?
54 AGM100 : Maybe because the owner of the company wanted to serialize the units as they wanted. These are privately built tools ... if the manufacturing company
55 Tugger : Yes, but they fighting a religious war. We are not. It's not a serialization method. Now if they were smart it would be a "model number": "Would you
56 Mt99 : So u'd be fine with Koran references to serializing their tools. Good.
57 CALTECH : There are no Bible verses on US weapons. There are letters and numbers which reference Bible verses. Is this what was meant by the question ? People
58 AGM100 : Sure .. If it is done to give the soldier using it some strength some comfort who cares. The versus of the bible are sometimes used as strength and s
59 Johns624 : You forgot your smilie or sarcasm alert emoticon.
60 MoltenRock : I see it as a new low in breaking contracts (your word) that a company signs with the US govt not to do that exact kind of thing. The US govt has wel
61 Mudboy : The only people that complain, are the Politicians, the Media, and people that have never stepped foot over here, and maybe a few weekend warriors th
62 Scorpio : What an impressive case of 'wooosh, over your head'... Is it really that hard to understand that the problem here are NOT (I repeat, NOT) the militan
63 Post contains images CALTECH : Your words, but there are no "quaint scriptures" on these sights, just letters and numbers. Your words, are you sure that the government contract spe
64 Scorpio : Are you implying that everyone who disagrees with the US is an extremist now?
65 IAirAllie : Unless you can demonstrate that the US government contract specified anything like this then your assertion that they broke a contract is defamatory.
66 CALTECH : Never stated that. It is in your mind. Do you have any proof ? Any at all of 'moderate' Yeah because the 'moderate' ones have been so effective in st
67 Tugger : And though we may be fighting in "their" religious war, we are not religiously motivated. We are not fighting to defend a religion and we are not fig
68 Scorpio : The why post approval ratings of US policy in Muslim countries immediately preceded by 'moderate, let's see'? -why do you say 'moderates', iso just m
69 CALTECH : 'We' may not be, but those who participated in the attacks of September 11th sure do believe they are in a religious war. And most polls of muslims b
70 Tugger : So more reasons for more people to believe an extremists rantings is good? On an individual basis it can't get worse than being killed, but on a grou
71 CALTECH : Some claim that 'moderates' may be swayed by these 'letters and numbers' on US scopes. Well, if they can be swayed so easily, they never were 'moderat
72 Scorpio : Can someone answer me the following question: What is the most dangerous: a thousand extremists willing to blow themselves and us up, or ten thousand?
73 CALTECH : Is there any proof that there are 10 times more extremists because of these 'letters and numbers' ? Can anyone answer this ? Maybe these 'letters and
74 Scorpio : No, there isn't. And neither should there be, as no-one ever claimed there were. You can substitute ten thousand by any other number higher than one
75 Post contains links CALTECH : Rather than some hypothetical pie in the sky thoughts, it seems the muslim world was angry at the US for much bigger reasons than some 'letters and nu
76 Post contains links stasisLAX : The evangelical members of the military command are probably using the bible rifles to spread their faith. "The Air Force inquiry began last month aft
77 Scorpio : ...which no-one I can think of has ever claimed. Does anyone have any proof for that? While I do not doubt these numbers (they are in fact well-known
78 Post contains links Aaron747 : Every now and then, it's good to go back and read this: http://www.fareedzakaria.com/ARTICLES/newsweek/101501_why.html About a decade ago, in a casual
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