KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11705 posts, RR: 52 Posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1503 times:
Today the US Commerce Department report is the strongest evidence to date that the worst recession since the 1930s ended last year. It has? Where? Unemployment is still (officially) at 10%, and (unofficially) at 17.8% and climbing.
Here in Texas, we have managed to avoid some of the worse conditions and other factors of this econmic downturn. But, I still do not see any improvement in the economy.
Only the Obama Administration seems to think economic conditions are better today than one year ago. Under Bush, there was real growth at least for a few years, 2003 through 2006. The economy has tanked since 2007 under Bush, and continues today under Obama.
To me, these numbers are an out and out lie. I know no one, liberal or conservitive, or anyone in between who actually believes this lie to the American people and the world.
Baroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 60 Reply 1, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1490 times:
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Thread starter): To me, these numbers are an out and out lie. I know no one, liberal or conservitive, or anyone in between who actually believes this lie to the American people and the world.
My my another hoax or worse yet a set of hoaxes. Which numbers do you not believe and why?
The unemployment figure?
Projections of growth?
That employment tends to lag recovery?
CBO last year seemed to be projecting growth of 3.25% for 2010.
Well they were soon proved right on that one, just not the way they expected. Only eight months to go although if you look at unemployment, the recession had started as those words were being written.!
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 7756 posts, RR: 22 Reply 2, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1477 times:
Let's break it down a little bit:
I compared the last quarter's real GDP vs the average quarterly GDP for 2008 ( which would include the crash in the last quarter), and vs the average for 2007, before the crash. That should give us a better idea of where we stand.
Personal Consumption
$9299 Billion (2005 Inflation-Adjusted Dollars)
0% Change from 2008
0% Change from 2007
The zero change is because of greater services - Durable and non-durable goods purchases are both sharply down.
Gross Private Investment
$1602 Billion
-19% Change from 2008
-25% Change from 2007
This includes business investment and private investments (IRAs and so forth)
Net Exports (negative means more imports than exports)
-$341 Billion
-31% Change from 2008
-47% Change from 2007
This measure is actually good - Exports are flat or down only slightly, Imports are down sharply.
Government Spending
$2584 Billion
3% Change from 2008
6% Change from 2007
State expenditure is flat. Federal expenditures are up 7% and 15%.
Total GDP
$13155 Billion
-1% Change from 2008
-1% Change from 2007
The high growth number is because you are measuring Q4 of 2009 with Q4 of 2008, which was right after the Mortgage industry crash when everyone was hunkering down and GDP was WAY down.
NIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 3, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1462 times:
I think we all need to relax here, sure things are bad but not even close to the 1930's. We are not sitting on line waiting for bread or living in tents in the dust bowl. The MSNBCs and CNNs have been mostly responsible for scaring the hell out people. We have started a slow recovery (which I feel has been slowed due to Obama's refusal to slash taxes and give a tax holiday for payroll taxes and businesses) but we are slowly pulling out. I am not sure how factual this info is but we need to stop the sky is falling routine.
KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11705 posts, RR: 52 Reply 4, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1462 times:
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2): The high growth number is because you are measuring Q4 of 2009 with Q4 of 2008, which was right after the Mortgage industry crash when everyone was hunkering down and GDP was WAY down.
Conclusion: We're still neck-deep.
Oh, I agree with that when comparing 2008Q4 to 2009Q4 only.
But, it is this statement from the Obama Commerce Dept. saying the 'recession' ended in 2009 that is a bold faced lie.
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Thread starter): Today the US Commerce Department report is the strongest evidence to date that the worst recession since the 1930s ended last year.
Quoting Baroque (Reply 1): My my another hoax or worse yet a set of hoaxes. Which numbers do you not believe and why?
The unemployment figure?
Projections of growth?
That employment tends to lag recovery?
CBO last year seemed to be projecting growth of 3.25% for 2010.
Your 2007 NYT link is no longer relevent. The unemployment figure is a number reall people base their livelyhood on, not some political statement from political hacks. Yes, employment does lag behind the economy, but are you saying the unemployment rate in the US (I don't know what it is in Austraila) is finally going to start going down in the next few months?
I also would not put a lot of faith in the CBO projected numbers of a 3.25% increase in the US economy during 2010. Can it happen? Yes, but that is not the question. The question is will it happen? I don't see many, if any indicators saying it will. Remember, the CBO is a branch of the US Congress and will put out only the information they are told to put out.
Kappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 19 Reply 5, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1449 times:
A lot of countries are reporting they are out of the recession, such as Germany and the UK. Jobs usually follow months after recovery. It can be up to 6 months before the jobless rate finally decreases. In fact, it can increase even more while the country is officially out of recession. That's why many are saying the recession is over, but we're not out of the woods yet. If unemployment still rises even further (this is true not only for the US but also other countries in the same position), we may slip back into recession.
But to call it a bald faced lie is IMHO quite hyperbolic, seeing how other countries are also reporting they are out of the recession.
Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 3): MSNBCs and CNNs have been mostly responsible for scaring the hell out people.
That's the job of the media, at least they think it is. Whether it's CNN, Fox (you omitted them, but they are hardly a bastion of positive thinking), or whatever. Positive news doesn't seem to sell.
Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 3): I think we all need to relax here, sure things are bad but not even close to the 1930's.
Indeed, nowhere close to that. Thankfully.
Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 3): to slash taxes and give a tax holiday for payroll taxes and businesses
This is always a fine line. You can increase taxes to increase government earnings, cutting deficit and making it possible to stimulate the economy. But increase it too much, you reach the opposite stifling business, increasing labour cost, increasing unemployment and ultimately increasing the government deficit.
On the other hand, you can lower taxes, which may reduce labour costs. However, this will decrease government earnings and it's not sure that the companies will use the lower labour costs to hire more people. They can also pocket those earnings to increase profitability or decrease their losses.
There is no single best solution in these cases. That's why you usually see a combination of stimulus (not just in this recession but there are examples in other recessions as well) and not increasing taxes (IMHO indeed the absolute worst you can do in a recession) and other measures to try to get companies to hire again.
The funny thing is, if you talk to ten different economists what the best way is to get out of a recession, you get ten different answers. The same thing with the Bush tax cuts, half will say it had only a short term effect and the long term effect was worse than the benefit it brought, others will say it delayed the recession or prevented worse. Who to believe?
Flighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 7429 posts, RR: 3 Reply 6, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1436 times:
Generally, people believe they are in a recession most of the time, or "bad economic times."
They are only forced to give up the pessimism when:
A) Stock market is at a record high;
B) Full employment;
C) Real estate is at a record high.
Most recently we had this in the late 1990s (99). We were also basically there in 2007. Otherwise, starting in about 2007, the entertainment-media started saying we were in terrible economic trouble (starting with high oil prices). The irony was, oil prices were only high because the entire world was so prosperous.
But, a dead clock is still right twice a day. Pessimism has been an argument in America most of the time, and it still is today. Yet, we are still the biggest economic winners of world history. This does not guarantee we are psychologically equipped to deal with that.
Aaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 7626 posts, RR: 28 Reply 7, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1429 times:
Quoting Kappel (Reply 5): But to call it a bald faced lie is IMHO quite hyperbolic, seeing how other countries are also reporting they are out of the recession.
In the US it's really not hyperbole - regardless of the administration, the Bureau of Labor Statistics has been cooking economic numbers for a variety of political purposes since the early 1970s. There is a slew of written work on that subject - a simple google search will yield plenty of results.
The CBO is far more even handed but they are prone to the occasional mistake. The best way to analyze economic data in the US is to take sample data with same formulaic approaches from several reporting sources, find a confidence interval and go with the mean or median, whichever you particularly prefer.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
The high growth number is because you are measuring Q4 of 2009 with Q4 of 2008, which was right after the Mortgage industry crash when everyone was hunkering down and GDP was WAY down.
I was about to post the exact same thing. Quarterly growth figures are always reported year over year.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
Kappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 19 Reply 8, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1429 times:
Quoting Flighty (Reply 6): Pessimism has been an argument in America most of the time,
The US is not the only country with this problem unfortunately. I see the same in Europe. People seem to not know what a self fulfilling prophecy is. What happens when people are convinced the economy is bad (when there are still plenty of jobs)? They stop spending. When that happens, the economy grinds to a halt. And then it becomes a downward spiral. And that is damned hard to stop. Remember in 2008 how some were predicting this recession would last at least 5 years? Now, more and more countries are reporting they are out of the recession.
AGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 18 Reply 9, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1407 times:
Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 3): I think we all need to relax here, sure things are bad but not even close to the 1930's
Correct ...they talked it down as much as they could and pulled a few magic tricks with FM's to create doubt . Blowing the bubble up and gleefully waiting to put the pin it .... love it ! The Dems knew the bubble was growing with the over valued mortgage industry but claimed all is well and kept the money going though too the big banks. Its hard to imagine that they were that smart ... I mean Maxine Waters ? but they're was certainly people who could see it coming and calculated its toll politically.
That said ...
My neighbor sure is happy ... he works for a big construction company. The company is piling up state stimulus (recovery) money putting bridges over dry washes ... digging and preparing trenches for future sewer and utility , and bolstering bridges in the flood plains area.
The recovery act is working in those areas ..and he and his family are thankful for the work. A few months ago , I was paying him for yard work so that he could feed his kids ... so that is a positive change I guess. Frankly I have been thinking of shutting down and going to work for them ... construction is good rewarding work and it keeps in good shape !
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
FlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6049 posts, RR: 25 Reply 10, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1388 times:
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4): Yes, employment does lag behind the economy, but are you saying the unemployment rate in the US (I don't know what it is in Austraila) is finally going to start going down in the next few months?
It is possible for the economy to grow without creating jobs.
As is usually the case, the economy is NEVER as good as it appears in boom times (think the bubble economies of the late 90's and mid 00's) and the economy is NEVER as bad as it appears in bad times.
Flanker From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1609 posts, RR: 2 Reply 11, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1386 times:
Where you ask?
In the government! DUH..
Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist
Flighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 7429 posts, RR: 3 Reply 12, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1353 times:
Right, the government is growing easily at 5%, probably more.
Health care is STILL growing.
And, ask any business person: are things as bad as 2008? Are things getting better? Of course they are a little bit better than those doomsday months. So, yes the recession is OVER. It doesn't mean everybody's happy. People rarely are. But, some of this gloom was manufactured by the professional entertainers in the media. There's no guarantee what THEY said was true. They were just fanning the flames.
Listen to Public Radio sometimes. Their attitude is always negative. The "incompleteness" of prosperity, or the superficiality and pointlessness of modern life, or whatever.
Even in much-ballyhooed boom economy in China, not everybody is happy. But, it is nonetheless a boom economy. And ours ain't bad. But, with enough mismanagement, and psychotic leaders, anything can be endangered, including the US economy.
STT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16247 posts, RR: 52 Reply 13, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1347 times:
Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 3): The MSNBCs and CNNs have been mostly responsible for scaring the hell out people.
That's the job of the media, to question authority. If Foxnews, the New York Times (yes the Times) were acting more like critical media outlets instead of cheerleaders perhaps the idiocy of invading Iraq would never have happened.
StuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1781 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1332 times:
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4): But, it is this statement from the Obama Commerce Dept. saying the 'recession' ended in 2009 that is a bold faced lie.
Don't worry man, it's only a "mental recession," right?
San747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4934 posts, RR: 13 Reply 15, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1325 times:
Everything I've read from various sources that are considered left and right-wing are indicating that the negative growth is slowing down, if not completely stopped already. I don't think anyone has said we're out of the woods yet, but at least it seems we're moving back in the right direction. Whatever you want to believe is the reason- Obama, the cyclical nature of the economy, taxes or lack thereof, etc.- I think the general consensus is that the worst of the storm has passed, unless I'm completely misinterpreting what I'm reading and hearing.
747srule From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 419 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1275 times:
I have been out of work for over a year,so I don't see any growth!
KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11705 posts, RR: 52 Reply 17, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1268 times:
The high growth number is because you are measuring Q4 of 2009 with Q4 of 2008, which was right after the Mortgage industry crash when everyone was hunkering down and GDP was WAY down.
I was about to post the exact same thing. Quarterly growth figures are always reported year over year.
Yes, I know and that makes the numbers look artificially good, but in reality that also makes the number completely useless. If the measureed the growth quarter to quarter (in this case comparing the numbers from the 3rd q to the 4th Q) and adjust them for seasonal trends (like Christmas shopping), the numbers would be more meaningful and will show a trend, up or down.
Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 14): Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):
But, it is this statement from the Obama Commerce Dept. saying the 'recession' ended in 2009 that is a bold faced lie.
Don't worry man, it's only a "mental recession," right?
StuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1781 posts, RR: 1 Reply 18, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1253 times:
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 17): That's not what my savings accounts are saying.
Sorry to hear that. I share your pain.
It was actually a humorous poke at the failed McCain campaign. All in good fun!
MoltenRock From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1241 times:
Most of the countries in eastern Asia didn't even stop growing, much less have a recession. If they did have a decline it was very small. Singapore had a deep 6 month pull back, and a quick rebound to around 2% increase for the year. Singapore is a bit unique because of its small size, wealthiness, open economy and global ties to the west.
China's 4th quarter GDP +10.7% and ended 2009 up 8.2% over 2008
South Korea's was up .5% for all of 2009
Philippines was up 1.8% for the 4th quarter, .9% for all of 2009
Indonesia up 4.5% in 2009
Australia up 1.3% in 2009, 4.25% growth expected 2010
ASEAN countries as a group were up 6.06% in 2008, 4.34% in 2009, and to be up 5.23% in 2010.
Additionally, the ASEAN group of countries have fared quite well in managing their debt loads which early 2009 were at 39% of GDP. By contrast Canada's is at 53%, USA 102%, Australia 13.1%, France 79%, Germany 86%, Turkey 51%, Italy 122%, and Argentina 50% expected for the end of 2010.
The US and Japan both hobbled by massive debt will have to look to the Asian economies to help pull them back out of their financial hole. Europe will be a small rise I believe as their economies are much more sound, with higher savings rates by their citizens, and much smaller debt loads, but have suffered the brunt of the US bank folly the most, given their banks ties to the USA. Fortunately, Asian banks didn't buy into the scam investments.
My guess is the government's unemployed # in the USA will be 8.5% around election time. It's going to be a bit of a slow slog as consumers continue to pay off debt, keep spending down, and government and corporate spending will have to carry them.
Comorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4670 posts, RR: 17 Reply 20, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1228 times:
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 17): If the measureed the growth quarter to quarter (in this case comparing the numbers from the 3rd q to the 4th Q) and adjust them for seasonal trends (like Christmas shopping), the numbers would be more meaningful and will show a trend, up or down
These numbers are for Real GDP, which means they are seasonally adjusted. Trust those numbers, man!
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 7): I was about to post the exact same thing. Quarterly growth figures are always reported year over year
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2): The high growth number is because you are measuring Q4 of 2009 with Q4 of 2008,
Sorry, the numbers are Quarter to Quarter - Q3 to Q4 - not q4 08 vs q4 09 - where did you guys come up with this?
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Thread starter): To me, these numbers are an out and out lie. I know no one, liberal or conservitive, or anyone in between who actually believes this lie to the American people and the world.
I do. I have actually met the Undersecretary who runs the Bureau of Economic Analysis at The Department of Commerce. He was a nice guy with a beard. It would take 100s of some of our nations top minds fudging and colluding to com up with wrong numbers. National Accounts and Econometrics are well developed methodologies with observable consequences like Fluid Mechanics.
The numbers put out by the NBER and the BEA are the basis for most econometric forecasting models used by Corporate America and by Wall Street. Professionals from around the world come to them to learn at the feet of the masters. In my opinion, these are the jewels within our government system. Don't forget that the National Bureau of Standards and Technology, another arm of the Commerce Dept, has a Nobel laureate scientist, as does the Dept of Energy. while were at it, think NASA, JPL, Fermilab, National Ignition Facility - the envy of the world!
I love the US Government, wish it was twice as big!
Back on topic: Guys, please read this pdf - it is the original release so that you understand what is being said:
Flighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 7429 posts, RR: 3 Reply 21, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1222 times:
Quoting Comorin (Reply 20): It would take 100s of some of our nations top minds fudging and colluding to com up with wrong numbers
People still want to believe the "economy" is an emotional concept, and that when the country's emotions are low, the economy is doing badly, and the layman gets to declare such. That's like the fat guy saying, "I feel great, I don't care what my doctor says, I am very healthy" as he takes out a cigarette while eating a steak, at 350 lbs. What you feel does matter -- it's true -- but the facts matter more.
Orders are up this year; they were up 4Q last year. Retail is saying it. Car sales are saying it. The NBER and everybody says it. So, it's true. But don't expect the media to catch on for a very long time, maybe until the next bubble already inflates and bursts, the media complaining all the while. There will be outrage over "outsourcing" ad infinitum.
Comorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4670 posts, RR: 17 Reply 22, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1202 times:
Quoting Flighty (Reply 21): People still want to believe the "economy" is an emotional concept, and that when the country's emotions are low, the economy is doing badly, and the layman gets to declare such.
Your point is well taken. I remember the days when we had the 'Misery Index' as an indicator!
In NYC, the Economy is lousy. It has nothing to do with any particular number (even though the numbers are lousy too!) This translates into your favorite restaurant closing down, unemployed friends, and other social metrics.
I guess going back to KC135's points, he is right in that it just doesn't feel like the recession is over, much less a 5.7% jump in the growth. That good feeling will only return with full employment.
Economists are happy because we've averted the dreaded double-dip recession. Meanwhile, thank god for low inflation...
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 7756 posts, RR: 22 Reply 23, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1195 times:
Quoting Comorin (Reply 20): Sorry, the numbers are Quarter to Quarter - Q3 to Q4 - not q4 08 vs q4 09 - where did you guys come up with this?
You are correct - I misheard a talking head on CNN.
However the breakdown I provided in Reply 2 was correct. Compared to last year and the year before, the real economy is still stagnant or depressed, with the exception of government spending, which artificially raises GDP without actually benefiting anyone, and a reduction in imports, because we can't afford to buy as many BMWs and Mercedes, which translates to GDP growth as well (like a double-negative).
Personal spending and private and business investment are all down.
Before you ask, the reason that I say that government spending doesn't really help is that the government borrowed money from china to dig up and repave the road at the end of my street. Big Recovery Act signs everywhere. Traffic was screwed up for a couple of months, and now that they are finished it's exactly like it was before - because there was nothing wrong with the pavement before. Complete and utter waste of money, and now we have to pay China back.
Gemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5217 posts, RR: 6 Reply 24, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1179 times:
Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 19): Additionally, the ASEAN group of countries have fared quite well in managing their debt loads which early 2009 were at 39% of GDP. By contrast Canada's is at 53%, USA 102%, Australia 13.1%, France 79%, Germany 86%, Turkey 51%, Italy 122%, and Argentina 50% expected for the end of 2010
Just out of sheer curiosity, nothing else, why did you include the Australian debt/GDP of 13.1% when most of the others were >79%.? Seems like an aberrant data point.
25 Baroque: And you do not find it a little amusing/ironical whatever that just as the recession was starting - as shown so elegantly in the link from Comorin fo
26 MoltenRock: I got the data from our internal company documents for economic activity and economic health for the various countries we do business in. I provided
27 KC135TopBoom: It would be humorous if McCain didn't plan to loose. Then again, I doubt we would be any better off with a McCain Administration than we are with the
28 Baroque: Actually the only puzzle is why in 2007 in the table it shows as 8.9% when the Feds were supposed to be in net surplus. 13.9% now is either right or
29 Dreadnought: It's just like your own debt. If you make $100K per year, and you have debts totaling $13K, you're doing OK - you can easily service that debt. $50K
30 Texan: And is likely to stay that way through mid-2011 unless there is massive government intervention. Texas's unemployment figures also just crept up. And
31 Okie: Agreed. That is the headline and the present administration relies on the fact that their supporters, either media or voters are not smart enough to
32 Texan: It is the headline of any administration no matter who is in power. I would bet everything I have that when Bush's economic growth numbers came out a
33 KC135TopBoom: The TX unemployment rate is 8.0%, with a high around 8.3% in the Houston area. In contrast MI has an unemployment rate nearly double that of TX, at 1
34 Okie: Blinders were never on sorry. The track record is speaking for itself. You just get half. Okie
35 Texan: 8.3% statewide is the latest report. 2.7% jump since December 2008 (the 8.3% is the Dec 2009 figure available at http://www.bls.gov/news.release/laus
36 Texan: You might have missed the tax cuts and billions of dollars in incentives given to businesses in the A.R.R.A of 2009, then. The Administration is tryi
37 Comorin: Will do! Let me don my flame suit first Apologies to KC135 and Dreadnought if I came across with an 'attitude'...
38 KC135TopBoom: Even the WH is now saying those numbers are not true and they have no idea how many, if any jobs have been created or saved. They also do not know ho
39 Dreadnought: No reason to apologize - you pointed out an error we had made. It didn't change our conclusions, but you were right to point it out.
40 Texan: For most individuals the cuts and breaks ended this month, but many of the business tax cuts and breaks in the bill are extended through 2011, especi
41 KC135TopBoom: But almost every one of those that began construction in 2009, and even most of those that will begin in 2010 (including the major rebuild of Rwy 17C
42 MoltenRock: Yeah, that's called denial. Or the No true Scotsman logical fallacy. Or cognitive dissonance.
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