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Sexual Confusion In Afghanistan  
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4143 times:

Somehow I don't think this study will be discussed a lot on TV. I think it explains a few things.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010...uggle-sexual-identity-study-finds/

Quote:
An unclassified study from a military research unit in southern Afghanistan details how homosexual behavior is unusually common among men in the large ethnic group known as Pashtuns -- though they seem to be in complete denial about it.
...
The study, obtained by Fox News, found that Pashtun men commonly have sex with other men, admire other men physically, have sexual relationships with boys and shun women both socially and sexually -- yet they completely reject the label of "homosexual." The research was conducted as part of a longstanding effort to better understand Afghan culture and improve Western interaction with the local people.
...
In one instance, a group of local male interpreters had contracted gonorrhea anally but refused to believe they could have contracted it sexually -- "because they were not homosexuals."

Apparently, according to the report, Pashtun men interpret the Islamic prohibition on homosexuality to mean they cannot "love" another man -- but that doesn't mean they can't use men for "sexual gratification."
...
The report also detailed a disturbing practice in which older "men of status" keep young boys on hand for sexual relationships. One of the country's favorite sayings, the report said, is "women are for children, boys are for pleasure."

The report concluded that the widespread homosexual behavior stems from several factors, including the "severe segregation" of women in the society and the "prohibitive" cost of marriage.




Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1697 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4109 times:

Interesting. First time I hear of this-although I have seen/read The Kite Runner and this is admittedly the first thing I thought of.
If this way of thinking suits Pashtun men, then fine. I'm not that great at trying to decode this pattern of behaviour-where men reject the concept of not conforming to the status quo.. However, this way of thinking is prevalent across neighbouring cultures where men can be 'homosexual' or 'bisexual' but not 'gay' in the Western sense-of acknowledging and having pride in one's sexuality etc.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 2, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4093 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
An unclassified study from a military research unit in southern Afghanistan details how homosexual behavior is unusually common among men in the large ethnic group known as Pashtuns -- though they seem to be in complete denial about it.

Which is pretty much the same as urban myths that have been around concerning some racial groups for at least a hundred years.

I do trust you are going to be able to cite a reference to the original article/study/report????


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 3, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4050 times:



Quoting Baroque (Reply 2):
I do trust you are going to be able to cite a reference to the original article/study/report????

I haven't seen the original, but a quick Google indicates that it is being widely reported on the internet. Maybe one of these links will have a link to the original.

http://www.google.com/search?q=study...la:en-US:official&client=firefox-a



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineAndaman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4016 times:

I am not familiar with Pashtun culture, but I didn't quite get what was the big news?

In many, often Islamic, cultures the priority still is to keep the unmarried girls safe and less important is what the guys are doing together. It's just not necessarily understood the same way we do in the West. My Turkish friend told me that behavior was silently accepted in the Turkish countryside where he grew up and a Finnish friend noticed the same in Lebanon where he served as an UN peacekeeper. I have got confused in Morocco, getting unexpected attention from men in the Sahara desert.

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
practice in which older "men of status" keep young boys on hand for sexual relationships.

That was the disturbing part, thats simply sexual abuse.


User currently offlineCaptaink From Mexico, joined May 2001, 5109 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3998 times:

The way of thinking reminds me of Ancient Greece. Interesting nevertheless.


There is something special about planes....
User currently offlineSeb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11718 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3927 times:



Quoting Andaman (Reply 4):
I didn't quite get what was the big news?

I don't get why this is news, either. It is common, accepted, and not discussed practice all over the world. Even in the United States. Not the children part, but the rest of it. In the old West, cowboys would turn to each other for gratification, being that there were no women on a cattle drive. So, this is news..... why?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 7, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3917 times:



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 6):
In the old West, cowboys would turn to each other for gratification, being that there were no women on a cattle drive.

Somebody has been watching Brokeback Mountain? 



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineSeb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11718 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3895 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
Quoting Seb146 (Reply 6):
In the old West, cowboys would turn to each other for gratification, being that there were no women on a cattle drive.

Somebody has been watching Brokeback Mountain?

har-dee-har-har.... 

Think about it, though: 1850s through the 1930s or so, there were few paved roads or few railroads in the West. There were cattle drives that would last a couple of weeks or a month or more. Men have needs and urges. When there are no women around for a month and certain things need to be taken care of....

I used to have a really good book on the subject. Not "Brokeback Mountain" but real people and places with none of the sordid details. There was a lot more going on than history books print! Gambling, drinking, smoking, drugs.... all of it.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12710 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3881 times:



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 6):
I don't get why this is news, either. It is common, accepted, and not discussed practice all over the world. Even in the United States. Not the children part, but the rest of it.

Boy, if that's true, I need to get some prettier friends! 

Mine aren't fit for man nor beast! 

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 6):
In the old West, cowboys would turn to each other for gratification, being that there were no women on a cattle drive.

Thank god these days we have internet porn! 

And I think we need to introduce internet porn to certain parts of Afghanistan! 



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12158 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3859 times:



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 8):
Think about it, though: 1850s through the 1930s or so, there were few paved roads or few railroads in the West. There were cattle drives that would last a couple of weeks or a month or more.

In the 1870s and 1880s railroads began relacing many cattle drives from TX to KS. That is why Fort Worth beame a major railhead (it is still a major railhead today, but not so much for cattle, they usually go by truck). That is why Fort Woth also had stock yards, a tourist trap today.

I don't know how much homosexual events happened on the cattle drives, but I would guess not as much as you think. At the time, San Antonio, Fort Worth, Oklahoma City, and Abiline, KS all had a very big hooker industry. These guys had money, and, as you say, needs'.

As far as the Gay Pashtun Men goes, maybe they don't call it 'homosexual activity' because there is no 'love involved', it is still called gay or homosexual activity everywhere else in the world. If they were in many other Islamic countries, they would be executed for this type of activity. This is what is most bizarre to me, the fact they are doing something other Islamics would kill them for doing.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7555 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3823 times:



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 8):
When there are no women around for a month and certain things need to be taken care of....

It's called wanking, not shagging some bloke or asking for a quick bj.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12710 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3811 times:

BTW what's up with the title of "sexual confusion"?

Are they confused as to whether or not they're bonking a male or a female?

If so, the problems are even more severe than I thought....



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineMoltenRock From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3808 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Somehow I don't think this study will be discussed a lot on TV. I think it explains a few things.

Yes it does explain a few things. For instance, Christians now realize they are more alike Muslims then ever. When following an ancient book that is riddled with errors and contradicting commands itself, just make up a few loopholes for whatever floats your boat, while condemning all others.  


This just in, a new study by the FDA released today shows multiple untreated stab wounds shortens average remaining lifespan by 99.9%.  wink 


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19927 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3754 times:

*Packs a suitcase full of various antibiotics and makes plane reservations for KBL.*  duck 

(Someone had to say it!)

In some cultures, male-male play is considered normative behavior and does not necessarily imply a form of sexual orientation. There are simply men who are more into it than others.

This was also the case in ancient Greece, where male-male play and man-teen play were very common. I actually took an entire class on this subject (It was called "Gender, violence, and the body in ancient Greece and Rome." Or, as we students affectionately called it: "Ancient Greek Porn."). Many of the behaviors and phenomena described here were the case in ancient Greece and Rome.

There is usually a code to what behaviors are acceptable and which are not. For example, in an older man/younger man situation (say, a 30yo with a 17yo) the younger partner is the receptive partner. It's "dishonorable" to be a bottom. In fact, in the modern gay scene, being a bottom is still viewed in the pejorative. Not strongly negative, but pejorative nonetheless. Even language implies a more positive spin to the top position: like "top," "active," (in Spanish), etc.

In fact, 30% of men who identify as heterosexual have had at least one same-sex experience, even if it was just a show-and-tell game or masturbating together. And frankly, I like the idea of men getting their need for physical play with each-other out this way better than boxing.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27106 posts, RR: 60
Reply 15, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3744 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
*Packs a suitcase full of various antibiotics and makes plane reservations for KBL.*

Beat me to it  rotfl   rotfl  Im always up for a bit of charity work.  


User currently offlineMoltenRock From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3700 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
In some cultures, male-male play is considered normative behavior and does not necessarily imply a form of sexual orientation. There are simply men who are more into it than others.

History has shown repeatedly that homosexuality or male/male - female/female sex was not only common but accepted, as each of these people had roles to fill. Even Christianity was quite open and unconcerned with homosexuality until the past 2 or 3 hundred years.

There are a litany of ancient books, pieces of artwork, songs, pottery and other items, from countries and cultures around the world treating the subject as an every day part of life, as it was. These remains have documented homosexuality as common and usual in ancient Japan, China, India, Native American tribes, Egypt, Rome, Greece, Mayan, SE Asia & the Pacific Islands, Oceania, Northern Europe, and many other countries, cultures, and times.

In many cultures, just as the Japanese samurais one, most samurais had a male (homosexual) lover. Many of these homosexual samurais additionally had a wife. This too was quite common that the majority of homosexuals had a wife, as a wife was for procreation.

It's why I always have to chuckle when I hear some bible thumping, TV minister blather about "protecting" the tradition of marriage, or the "institution of marriage" when condemning gays and gay marriage. The "tradition" or "institution" of marriage was a business arrangement, and women in the bible are considered property, just like an oxen, cow, or home. Marriage was a tool to increase power, land holdings, riches, and leaving heirs. It had little t nothing to do with "love" and sex. The men had their dalliances on the side to satisfy their sexual needs, as did the women. It was only with the coming Victorian and Puritanical age that spouses need to lie, hide, and cheat for their needs outside of the marital arrangement.


User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3985 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3671 times:

Norwegian male forces who are on regular missions as mentors with the Afghan army has said that they have ocationally been asked if they would be interested in having sex by their Afghan counterpart.... The Norwegians have declined...

User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27106 posts, RR: 60
Reply 18, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3667 times:



Quoting Mortyman (Reply 17):
The Norwegians have declined...

Hmm well I know two people serving in Afghan and thats not what I hear , and that goes for alot of nationalities.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6723 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3652 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
In fact, in the modern gay scene, being a bottom is still viewed in the pejorative. Not strongly negative, but pejorative nonetheless. Even language implies a more positive spin to the top position: like "top," "active," (in Spanish), etc.

Heterosexuals don't help there, by asking gay men if they're "the man or the woman".



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineAndaman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3624 times:



Quoting Mortyman (Reply 17):
The Norwegians have declined...

Yes I'm sure that's exactly how all the foreign army forces have officially reported  


User currently offlineSeb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11718 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3594 times:



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
At the time, San Antonio, Fort Worth, Oklahoma City, and Abiline, KS all had a very big hooker industry. These guys had money, and, as you say, needs'.

I am sure this will rouse GKirk: Pendleton (PDT) was a hotbed of all kinds of stuff in the late 1800s through the mid 1900s. Sheep ranching (que GKirk), cattle ranching, and hookers. PDT was the Las Vegas of Oregon. Yes, the men would get their "needs" met when they were in town, but when they were out driving the cattle or sheep (no pun intended), what were they to do if they had an "itch" to scratch?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
If they were in many other Islamic countries, they would be executed for this type of activity. This is what is most bizarre to me, the fact they are doing something other Islamics would kill them for doing.

I think what other Islamic countries object to is that it is in the open. Maybe what goes on behind closed doors is not an abomination. I am just throwing it out there. I really don't know.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 11):
Quoting Seb146 (Reply 8):
When there are no women around for a month and certain things need to be taken care of....

It's called wanking, not shagging some bloke or asking for a quick bj.

That is something I don't understand: Out on the prarie, it was, from what I have read, acceptable for guys to rub one out (or more) in front of or with each other. Nowadays, that is grounds for a beating or even death.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 22, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3538 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
I haven't seen the original, but a quick Google indicates that it is being widely reported on the internet. Maybe one of these links will have a link to the original.

So you do not have a link to the original. Thanks again.

Quoting Captaink (Reply 5):
The way of thinking reminds me of Ancient Greece. Interesting nevertheless.

Thanks for the correction, "an urban myth that has been around for over a thousand years", probably since the rise (steady there Doc) of the Roman Empire who presumably would have started that slander while happily at it themselves no doubt.

To those who are puzzled by the double standards, ever heard of DO NOT GET CAUGHT?


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 2003, 14061 posts, RR: 62
Reply 23, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3522 times:

Don´t know. If I want to sh#g somebody I´ll need a hard-on. I can only get one if I´m sexually aroused. Now I´ve never met a man who would sexually arouse me, but a woman, as long as she conforms to a certain standard of personal hygiene and is within a certain age range, will do so easily (depending on the situation of course). If I´m alone and feel horny (which happens often, since my fiancee lives about 1000 km away from me), I tend to use Ms. Rosie Palm and her five sisters. i never had the urge to get some bloke to "help" me.

Jan


User currently offlinePhoenix9 From Canada, joined Aug 2007, 2546 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3504 times:



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 23):

Whoa dude! How long have you been waiting to share THAT?    tongue 



Life only makes sense when you look at it backwards.
25 Post contains images Mortyman : Yeah, I knew someone would comment on it like that...
26 Post contains images Andaman : Well... It's easy to believe in Afganistan all kind of sexual contacts between Western troops and locals aren't common, especially between men of cou
27 Captaink : HAHA, that just made me laugh. But it is so true. I have in the past found myself with a direct path to the 'promised land' only to abort because of
28 Post contains images Gardermoen : Very interesting topic. Having discovered the Middle East/Levant region a few years ago and been to some 6 countries, I was totally gobsmacked the fir
29 Mudboy : I hate to hurt everyone's feelings, but the Afghans are not the only ones that share the "women are for having children, and the boys and men are for
30 MD11Engineer : While Filipinos are normally very tolerant towards gays ( a bit of joking teasing, but not the aggression shown often in the West by straight men tow
31 KiwiRob : Well they say you learn something new everyday, here I was thinking all gay men took it up the rear, now I find out that only some do, now for the li
32 LHR380 : This is a very very interesting topic! Where is this said? I don't think I have ever heard people saying a "bottom" is less of a person cause of how t
33 MoltenRock : Just as confounding as you find it to think of why someone is gay or enjoys same sex attraction/orgasm/etc, it is just as confounding to gay people t
34 Captaink : Among other things yeah. The woman's shape, smell, sensuality, soft skin, soft voice, pretty feet and hands and then the two you mentioned, the latte
35 Seb146 : I have not heard being a bottom is bad, either. The only things I have really heard is "fat" (subjective) and "old" (subjective) are bad. I am speaki
36 Captaink : That is the point, human sexuality CANNOT be summarized in who puts what where. Human sexuality should not be labeled either in my opinion. As long a
37 Post contains images Revelation : I guess the saying, "Tis better to give than receive" even holds true in this context?
38 DocLightning : Because there is more to your sexual partner than just a hole and a stick. There's an entire body to explore and play with. That's the way it works f
39 KiwiRob : See you really do learn something everyday, I just thought it was all about butt shagging
40 Andaman : Yes agree what you wrote above. Human sexuality is complicated and powerful thing it seems, sometimes even life threatening. In some cultures women's
41 DocLightning : It's just commonly known. Being a bottom is always viewed with some light humor and a bit of a pejorative attitude, much like someone admitting that
42 MoltenRock : That's been my experience as well. I think it's self-loathing much as the uber-xtians trolling mens bathrooms at the airport & reststops.
43 Dreadnought : I just learned a term that I really did NOT need to learn.
44 Post contains images MoltenRock : I wonder if Tea Baggers ever figured out what that term really means? LOL! I wonder what goes on in their Tea Rooms.
45 DocLightning : No, because being a Republican should not mean anti-gay. Unfortunately, a significant portion of the Party seems to think that it's an important plat
46 DocLightning : The other thing is that there is a lot of confusion here about what defines "gay" and "straight." The problem is that there are multiple meanings to t
47 Post contains images OA260 : Thats a very interesting chart and very true. Take a look at this cage fighter ! You wouldnt think he liked to cross dress would you ....
48 Aesma : How do I fill it if I like cross-dressing like OA260 suggests ? I mean, being sometimes a masculine man, and sometimes a feminine woman ? And what ab
49 DocLightning : No... but regardless, can I have his number? *drools lecherously* What's your gender identity? What's your gender expression? Seems to fall under the
50 LHR380 : Stereotyping is fun, cause people can get it SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO wrong lol I still get shocked expressions when chatting with a group of people and 1 fi
51 Post contains images DocLightning : I don't care if he's married. I'm fine with being "the other woman."     
52 Post contains images Captaink : In other words, you're not a jealous guy...   HAHA
53 Post contains images LMP737 : With that jaw line and Neanderthal eyebrow I don't know how many people he would fool.  
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