Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Critically Injured Haitians Barred By US States  
User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2701 posts, RR: 4
Posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2132 times:



Quote:
Flights transporting critically injured Haitians into the United States have temporarily been suspended because of logistical issues, including a lack of space, a White House spokesman said Saturday in response to reports of a dispute over who would pay for patients' care....

But the U.S. military said Saturday that the flights were stopped Wednesday because "some states are unwilling to allow entry for Haitian nationals for critical care," according to Navy Capt. Kevin Aandahl, a spokesman for the U.S. Transportation Command.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/am...01/30/haiti.us.airlifts/index.html

Haiti is on the doorstep of the nation who frequently reminds us it is the richest and has the "best" healthcare in the world. Alright for the rich, and the rich alone. This is the whole problem with mainstream American thinking on healthcare - it is just another competitive service available at a price, rather than an intrinsic human right. Where I've lived most of my life, in Australia and France, the systems are far from perfect, but access to care is on the basis of illness not insurance. Just ask American's who have fallen ill and needed hospital care in France.


When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBirdwatching From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 3767 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2128 times:



Quoting OzGlobal (Thread starter):
and has the "best" healthcare in the world

Are you sure? More like: the worst health care system in the world?

Soren  santahat 



All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
User currently offlineMoose135 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2243 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2121 times:



Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 1):

Are you sure? More like: the worst health care system in the world?

No, I think he had it right - the best health care in the world, but the worst health care system...



KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6110 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2094 times:

The best health care...when it cares.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineNws2002 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 854 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2089 times:

Just because our system and our priorities are different doesn't make them bad. We are constantly reminded that we need to accept that other countries are different and have different priorities. Well we place healthcare in the realm of completive services that an individual must pay for. The world community needs to accept this and move on. We do not deny emergency care to our citizens, and there are many free or low-cost clinics available along with a variety of state insurance options for those who need them.

User currently offlineGatorFan From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 331 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2082 times:

If the previous administration did this, it would have immediately termed racism.

User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2701 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2064 times:

Quoting GatorFan (Reply 5):
If the previous administration did this, it would have immediately termed racism.

If you read the article, you would understand it is individual states, not the White House that is barring patients for cost reasons.

Quoting Nws2002 (Reply 4):
Just because our system and our priorities are different doesn't make them bad. We are constantly reminded that we need to accept that other countries are different and have different priorities.

The US health care culture is not bad because it is "different", is bad because it compromises basic human rights. There are some fundamental rights that cannot be put at the mercy of the markets: basic health and education are examples. Whilst advocates of the commercialized US health system comfort any qualms they might have with the assurance that they "do not deny emergency care" in theory, in practice it is often not accessible in time, nor are preventable illnesses treated as they are not yet "emergencies". The system is immoral because treating healthcare ONLY as a commercially competitive service ignores the fact that illness and wealth do not come in proportion to each other, meaning many will not be able to exercise their human right to the care they need.

[Edited 2010-01-31 12:41:50]


When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineGatorFan From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 331 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2039 times:



Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 6):

If you read the article, you would understand it is individual states, not the White House that is barring patients for cost reasons.

If you understood the US Constitution, a state has absolutely no ability to restrict entry into it by a foreign national. The power to regulate immigration is exclusively a federal government power.


User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2701 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2027 times:



Quoting GatorFan (Reply 7):
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 6):

If you read the article, you would understand it is individual states, not the White House that is barring patients for cost reasons.

If you understood the US Constitution, a state has absolutely no ability to restrict entry into it by a foreign national. The power to regulate immigration is exclusively a federal government power.

Again, if you would just read the articles on the topic, it is the states individually, like Florida, who are refusing access to hospital beds which in turn is causing the military and Washington to suspend the evacuation flights. No need to give me a lesson on the constitution, it doesn't enter into the issue.



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26497 posts, RR: 58
Reply 9, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2024 times:

As the USA is the closest neighbour with the abundance of medical facilities then they should be doing everything 24/7 to assist.

Everybody likes to compare things to 9/11 !! Well this is Haiti's except hundreds of times worse ....



AEGEAN-OLYMPIC AIR - ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΗ " μέλος στη Star Alliance
User currently offlineNws2002 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 854 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2016 times:



Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 6):
The US health care culture is not bad because it is "different", is bad because it compromises basic human rights. There are some fundamental rights that cannot be put at the mercy of the markets: basic health and education are examples.

Many American's believe that humans have the basic right to not be discriminated against based on age, gender, and many other qualification. Yet we are often told that other countries do not have they same values and we need to accept it. We do healthcare our way, and polls show that the overwhelming majority do not want a universal healthcare system like many other countries have.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 6):
Whilst advocates of the commercialized US health system comfort any qualms they might have with the assurance that they "do not deny emergency care" in theory, in practice it is often not accessible in time, nor are preventable illnesses treated as they are not yet "emergencies".

If you call an ambulance or show up at an emergency room they are required by law to examine you and treat any life threatening issues and transport you another facility if they cannot provide the required care. For the most part healthcare is left up to each state, just like many other issues. Each state has low income insurance available for those who need it.

The hospitals along the gulf coast, which are private institutions for the most part, are full and worried about payment for those that are already under their care. Until payment is guaranteed by the government (or another payor) they don't want anymore patients. Push further into the US and I'm sure the military could find many charity hospitals who are willing to take these patients for the PR if nothing else.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8875 posts, RR: 40
Reply 11, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2000 times:

And I assume Europe is taking hundreds of thousands of Haitians in to take care of them, right?

Quoting OzGlobal (Thread starter):
rather than an intrinsic human right

Nobody has the right to the labor of another person. Nobody. Healthcare is not, and cannot, be a right. The fact that many socialized countries routinely deny treatment to many people should be enough evidence of that, unless you think they are abusing human rights too by doing this? And if you really think they don't deny treatment to anyone, you are fooling yourself.

[Edited 2010-01-31 13:41:28]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26497 posts, RR: 58
Reply 12, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1978 times:



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 11):
And I assume Europe is taking hundreds of thousands of Haitians in to take care of them, right?

Flight time from Port Au Prince to Miami?

Flight time from Port Au Prince to Europe?

If one of your family were critically ill and needed an operation would you send them to the nearest major city or make them ''hang on'' til they got to Europe?



AEGEAN-OLYMPIC AIR - ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΗ " μέλος στη Star Alliance
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8875 posts, RR: 40
Reply 13, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1974 times:



Quoting OA260 (Reply 12):
Flight time from Port Au Prince to Miami?

Flight time from Port Au Prince to Europe?



Quoting OA260 (Reply 12):
If one of your family were critically ill and needed an operation would you send them to the nearest major city or make them ''hang on'' til they got to Europe?

Not all cases are like that, right? That's only a matter of planning. And it's not like the article is saying Florida does not want to help.

Point is, nobody has unlimited resources and there is only so much that can be done. This reality applies to those who think healthcare is a right, too.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6110 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1968 times:

Europe is nearer if you count the overseas lands.

France is taking injured to Martinique. But it seams that there are problems with the availability of the airport, the Americans allow only two hours rotations, that means it is impossible to land, go to the hospitals, and be back in time, due to the well known circulation nightmare.

So instead people and equipment are send to man hospitals there, and only the worst injured are flown elsewhere. Like on the French boat that has a hospital (or of course the American one).



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineMham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3389 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1957 times:

The states are concerned about who will pay for their care. It is similar to the illegal immigration issue, while individual states are required to provide healthcare, education and prisons for illegals, the federal government will not reimburse for it.

EDIT: here is a more detailed explananation. If Bush were still president he would be pilloried as he was in Katrina.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/2010013...time/02880419533791953494195792600

[Edited 2010-01-31 14:51:39 by mham001]

User currently offlineFlanker From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1624 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1936 times:



Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 6):
If you read the article, you would understand it is individual states, not the White House that is barring patients for cost reasons.

Then why are you bitching about health care.



Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist
User currently offlineCpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 39
Reply 17, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1913 times:



Quoting Mham001 (Reply 15):
The states are concerned about who will pay for their care

Some things are above that, and this is one.

This is a very big natural disaster, and the bureaucrats are wondering who will pay for this? Seems a bit heartless to me.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 13):
This reality applies to those who think healthcare is a right, too.

It is indeed a right. I pay my taxes - and while I have health insurance (that I never use much), should I not have it for some reason, the public system is there as a safety net, along with the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme that means that should I contract some horrible disease that requires super expensive drugs to treat it, I can get them at a price that doesn't send me broke. I won't have to make the decision about going broke or death.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 11):
Nobody has the right to the labor of another person. Nobody.

Yet when you all come to Australia and get yourselves lost in national parks out in the middle of nowhere, we are expected to search for you, spending millions of dollars in the process. Would you suggest that if you got lost out in the middle of nowhere, and were critically injured, that we should find you, and then say, pay first, or leave you to die?

It's the same thing.


User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2701 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1909 times:



Quoting Flanker (Reply 16):
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 6):
If you read the article, you would understand it is individual states, not the White House that is barring patients for cost reasons.

Then why are you bitching about health care.

Because, as I've said several times above, it is the economic CULTURE of US healthcare, i.e. commercialization, that is the root cause of the suspension of care to the critically injured; the question is always, "But who will pay??"



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineGatorFan From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 331 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1852 times:



Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 8):

Again, if you would just read the articles on the topic, it is the states individually, like Florida, who are refusing access to hospital beds which in turn is causing the military and Washington to suspend the evacuation flights. No need to give me a lesson on the constitution, it doesn't enter into the issue.

The states have no ability to block access to hospital beds. I know of no institution that the State of Florida owns. Take for example the University of Miami, Jackson Memorial Hospital - what does the state have to do with it?

This was an attempt by Charlie Crist (gov. of Florida) to capitalize on a bad situation to get money for the hospitals. It's has backfired on him when the White House called his bluff and then said the military stopped the flights because the Gov. said the hospitals are full. Crist is running for US Senate and they're making him look bad.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 6):

If you read the article, you would understand it is individual states, not the White House that is barring patients for cost reasons.

Your statement clearly indicates that you misunderstand the constitution because the states can't bar patients for any reason. As soon as they entered the country the hospitals would be required by Federal law to render emergency treatment. In addition to the power to regulate immigration, you might also want to research the issue of federal pre-emption.


User currently offlineMham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3389 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1837 times:

Fair use from Time

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/2010013...time/02880419533791953494195792600

The military, whose large C-130 transport planes had until last Wednesday ferried out some 500 of the worst injured, indicated that it had halted the flights because Florida hospitals could no longer receive the patients, due to cost concerns that Republican Governor Charlie Crist expressed in a letter to the Obama Administration. Crist and the hospitals deny that assertion - "It's untrue," Crist said Saturday, calling it "astounding" the military would interpret his letter that way - and say they'd only asked the feds to help the economically battered state bear the long-term, multi-million-dollar price of treating Haiti's most seriously wounded casualties.

For its part, the Administration acknowledged that Crist's letter had actually not prompted the flight suspension and insisted instead that this was simply a logistical issue - one it promised to have resolved by Monday morning, when the flights were expected to resume. "It's a matter of finding [U.S.] medical facilities with the capacity to treat such a large amount of [critically injured] people and near runways where C-130s can land," White House spokesman Tommy Vietor told TIME. Vietor announced Sunday that the U.S. had successfully "worked to increase cooperation with our international partners, NGOs and states to expand access to additional facilities." Crist said military planes were still flying less seriously injured people, including three on Sunday, to Florida hospitals.


User currently offlineFuturePilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1825 times:



Quoting GatorFan (Reply 5):
If the previous administration did this, it would have immediately termed racism.

Way to jump the gun pal. This has absolutely nothing to do with the W/H. This has to do with space and logistical problems, What in the world does it have to do with racism?

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 6):

If you read the article, you would understand it is individual states, not the White House that is barring patients for cost reasons.

 checkmark 



"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offlineOkie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2851 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1825 times:



Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 18):
Because, as I've said several times above, it is the economic CULTURE of US healthcare



Quoting Cpd (Reply 17):

This is a very big natural disaster, and the bureaucrats are wondering who will pay for this? Seems a bit heartless to me



Quite Frankly, the US is going many fold beyond the amount of effort made by other countries.
My suggestion would be that you should spend your efforts to partition your own countries government to do more on all fronts and "pony up" and take some of the load before complaining about the US efforts. There are many needing healthcare in Haiti that are non critical and can withstand a 10+ hour flight just as well as waiting for the same period of time trying to get into the US.

Okie


User currently offlineGatorFan From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 331 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1803 times:



Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 21):

Way to jump the gun pal. This has absolutely nothing to do with the W/H. This has to do with space and logistical problems, What in the world does it have to do with racism?

And neither did Bush respecting the Louisiana Gov.'s sovereign authority and not ordering in the US military into a state without her request. Yet that act was termed racist.


User currently offlineSY738fan From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 39 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1797 times:

I'm not going to jump into the debate on US domestic healthcare, since it has little to do with the US response to the crisis in Haiti.

On the topic of whether the US is doing "enough", here's a breakdown of humanitarian aid sources in response to the earthquake: http://ocha.unog.ch/fts/reports/dail...a_R10_E15797_asof___1002010205.pdf

Do I think that US state and local governments should do whatever they can to help? Yes, of course. To deny access to medical care to anyone for political posturing is shameful. But frankly, so is pointing fingers at other countries while your own government's efforts are significantly less by comparison.



False. I do not miss Jim.
25 TheCommodore : When the Christmas 2004 Tsunami devastated Indonesia and surrounding islands. Australia responded right away with cash aid of over 1 billion Australi
26 PPVRA : You think if you get shot in the head and are still alive you will be denied treatment in the US because you are unconscious and can't pull out a cre
27 FuturePilot16 : You have no clue. Bush wasn't outright called a racist. The opinion of Kanye West does not represent the rest of the country's opinion. His admin act
28 N1120A : Our priorities are insurance company profitability and better care for those with more money. Those are f'ed up priorities. And I am SURE that the st
29 GatorFan : Please cite for me the provision of US law that would allow a President to send in US Military troops without the consent of the governor upon a fede
30 Travelin man : Oy, some people will look for anything to bash the US. The amount of aid the US is contributing towards Haiti (both government as well as private dona
31 Post contains links OzGlobal : Whilst I in no way want to dimish it, contrary to popular belief, the generosity of US aid, is at the low end of developed country / OECD performance
32 JCS17 : Another key question here is what is going to happen with these Haitians after they are treated in Les Etats Unis? I have a sneaking suspicion that ve
33 OzGlobal : All valid long term questions, but you don't see that as a reason for withdrawing emergency care to the "critically injured" CNN mentions I hope?
34 N1120A : Show me where the governor didn't consent. Right.
35 Lowrider : Its not heartless, it is practical. Even if we had universal government provided health care with no per person spending limits, there would still be
36 JCS17 : Yes and no. I think the US should be doing all that it can on the ground in Haiti in terms of treating people there. I believe only the critically wo
37 Travelin man : We are talking Haiti in particular, and quite frankly that index you quote is ridiculous. The US is severely "dinged" for emissions and negative envi
38 Maverick623 : States aren't "barring" anyone, as they do not have immigration powers, nor do they have the right to deny critical healthcare to anyone (equal prote
39 Post contains links GatorFan : The Gov. has to request the aid. Therefore, the burden is on the one advocating the position that the aid was requested. First you made the statement
40 OzGlobal : Not sure what you're referring to: the "aid" tab I directed you to does not mention emissions or environmental impact, only state and private donatio
41 Mham001 : Obama made a number of more forceful announcements and statements but many of the same issues played out on the ground for which he gets little criti
42 thegreatRDU : It's expensive for a reason....things are different here....your tax dollars don't pay for that 15 year old's abortion....you need insurance
43 TheCommodore : I don't think that's really the reason why is expensive in the US for health care. Alot of 3rd parties (like drug companies etc) are making heaps of
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Map Of US States As Foreign GDPs...e.g. AL Is Iran posted Fri Jun 15 2007 04:41:43 by MD-90
Boeing Disadvantaged By US Foreign Policy? posted Sat Oct 28 2006 09:05:11 by SSTsomeday
British Reporter Killed By US Marines posted Fri Oct 13 2006 21:32:50 by Cosec59
Southern US States Are The Most Charitable posted Mon Nov 21 2005 05:06:28 by MD-90
In What US States Is It Illegal To Turn Right/red? posted Sat Aug 13 2005 03:03:15 by Lnglive1011yyz
Disgusted By US Today Show 30/12 Re:Asia Crisis posted Fri Dec 31 2004 12:30:41 by 'Longreach'
Pat Tillman Killed By US Troops posted Sat May 29 2004 21:26:50 by BN747
Belgian Woman Strip Searched By US Immigration posted Sun Jul 6 2003 00:24:16 by B747-437B
US States You've Been To posted Wed Jul 2 2003 05:44:06 by Airplanetire
South Korean Women Killed By US Army Vehicle... posted Thu Jan 23 2003 22:49:31 by Rai