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Obama's Budget: Big Middle Class Tax Hikes Coming!  
User currently offlineJCS17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 39
Posted (4 years 7 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4000 times:

Mmm mmm mmm....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100201/bs_nm/us_budget_backdoortaxes

Backdoor Taxes To Hit Middle Class

Quote:
NEW YORK (Reuters.com) --The Obama administration's plan to cut more than $1 trillion from the deficit over the next decade relies heavily on so-called backdoor tax increases that will result in a bigger tax bill for middle-class families.
In the 2010 budget tabled by President Barack Obama on Monday, the White House wants to let billions of dollars in tax breaks expire by the end of the year -- effectively a tax hike by stealth.
While the administration is focusing its proposal on eliminating tax breaks for individuals who earn $250,000 a year or more, middle-class families will face a slew of these backdoor increases.
The targeted tax provisions were enacted under the Bush administration's Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001. Among other things, the law lowered individual tax rates, slashed taxes on capital gains and dividends, and steadily scaled back the estate tax to zero in 2010.
If the provisions are allowed to expire on December 31, the top-tier personal income tax rate will rise to 39.6 percent from 35 percent. But lower-income families will pay more as well: the 25 percent tax bracket will revert back to 28 percent; the 28 percent bracket will increase to 31 percent; and the 33 percent bracket will increase to 36 percent. The special 10 percent bracket is eliminated.
Investors will pay more on their earnings next year as well, with the tax on dividends jumping to 39.6 percent from 15 percent and the capital-gains tax increasing to 20 percent from 15 percent. The estate tax is eliminated this year, but it will return in 2011 -- though there has been talk about reinstating the death tax sooner.

http://thehill.com/homenews/administ...-to-tax-break-for-the-middle-class

President Obama’s budget seeks an end to tax break for the middle class

Quote:
Grappling to contain record deficits, President Barack Obama is seeking to end a middle-class tax break he once said would be permanent.

That’s a switch from last year, when Obama’s budget called for making the tax credit permanent.
The cut costs the federal government about $63 billion in annual revenue while putting up to $400 in the pockets of workers making less than $95,000. It was approved for the first time in last year’s $787 billion stimulus package.

An administration official said the tax credit reflects changing realities in Congress on climate change legislation.

The tax initially was intended to compensate middle-class families for increased energy costs related to a cap-and-trade mechanism that would have capped greenhouse gas emissions by businesses while setting up a system allowing emissions credits to be bought and sold, the official said. The credit was to be paid for by revenue from the cap-and-trade system.

Now that Congress is considering different ways of compensating middle-class families for higher energy costs related to a cap-and-trade bill, using the Making Work Pay credit is not necessary, the official suggested.

The 2010 budget said that with “families squeezed, this tax cut will put needed money in their pockets for them to make ends meet and cover the costs of necessities.”

The $3.8 trillion budget request rolled out by the White House on Monday would renew the Making Work Pay tax credit for fiscal 2011, but then would have it sunset.

Oh how I love the Barack Obama administration, it's like a bad joke that just keeps on giving. I know politicians aren't the most honest people on the world, but Obama is looking like a pathological liar, and at the very least, a master of nuance. At what point do the vast majority of Americans stop believing the words that are coming out of his mouth?

By the way, I also wonder how the permanent campaign led by David Axelrod and Rahm Emmanuel will respond to such charges that dare to challenge The Hero of The Working Class.


America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
207 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2972 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (4 years 7 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3990 times:

How nice. More taxes? We already have it bad...


The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (4 years 7 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3991 times:

I am not surprised by this. This idiot of a president has been lying to the American people telling us he "gave 95% of Americans a tax cut"...what an absolute lie. It is physically impossible for Obama to cut taxes with the amount he and his cronies are spending. With Obama's change of heart on now ending the tax cuts for the middle class, he has sealed the deal for his swift exit from the oval office in 2012.   I can't wait for liberals to start screaming "conservatives complain about the deficit, yet they don't want to pay more taxes"...my response is, how bout we SPEND LESS ON ENTITLEMENTS. What a concept.  


We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineATTart From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 7 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3995 times:

It, about time this happens, it is about time my family and I pay our share. Also, people making $250,000.00 or more is upper middle class or higher.


Remember: When someone talks behind your back, it only means you're two steps ahead of them!
User currently offlineJCS17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 39
Reply 4, posted (4 years 7 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3985 times:



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 2):
I can't wait for liberals to start screaming "conservatives complain about the deficit, yet they don't want to pay more taxes"...my response is, how bout we SPEND LESS ON ENTITLEMENTS.

Not gonna happen in this presidency. As Judd Gregg said, "If you have a government in place with an inherent antipathy towards the market and capitalism, and I believe this government does, I wish it weren't true, but this is the government of community organizers. They believe in social justice." http://m.cnbc.com/us_news/35180618

Quoting ATTart (Reply 3):
It, about time this happens, it is about time my family and I pay our share. Also, people making $250,000.00 or more is upper middle class or higher.

Tell me you're joking.



America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
User currently offlineATTart From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 7 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3981 times:



Quoting JCS17 (Reply 4):
Tell me you're joking.

No I am not....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_middle_class



Remember: When someone talks behind your back, it only means you're two steps ahead of them!
User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5249 posts, RR: 25
Reply 6, posted (4 years 7 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3964 times:

Seems to me that taxes will be increasing for everybody, but keep on pretending that this is some huge swipe against the Middle Class and yet another defeat for the Obama administration. And remind us, how exactly is an increase of 3% equivalent to a "big take hike".


Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineATTart From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 7 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3965 times:

National Pay Averages of Surprising Middle-Class Jobs
Job State Average Pay Top Earners’ Pay
Plumber Ohio $47,500.00 $81,700.00
Plumber Florida $54,800.00 $111,900.00
Plumber Colorado $54,900.00 $94,200.00
Registered Nurse Ohio $60,200.00 $78,200.00
Registered Nurse Florida $62,800.00 $87,200.00
Registered Nurse Colorado $68,900.00 $90,200.00
Certified Public Accountant (CPA) Ohio $69,700.00 $122,600.00
Certified Public Accountant Florida $76,900.00 $138,200.00
Certified Public Accountant Colorado $67,600.00 $134,300.00
Mechanical Engineer Ohio $78,800.00 $111,100.00
Mechanical Engineer Florida $82,000.00 $110,100.00
Mechanical Engineer Colorado $89,400.00 $125,100.00

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



So, who are the people who make up the upper class -- those earning $250,000 or more annually? Here is just a sampling:

National Pay Averages of Surprising Middle-Class Jobs
Job Average Pay Top Earners’ Pay
Chief Executive Officer (CEO)* $251,100.00 $576,500.00
Accounting Firm Partner++ $267,600.00 $457,700.00
Cardiologist $270,500.00 $429,700.00
Surgeon (all types) $298,600.00 $574,200.00
* at a company with approximately 500 employees ++ at 50 or more partners in firm



Remember: When someone talks behind your back, it only means you're two steps ahead of them!
User currently onlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8138 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (4 years 7 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3956 times:



Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 1):
More taxes? We already have it bad...

No kidding. I'd still like to know why those of us living and working overseas are taxed at fully regular rates if making over $82,000.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6606 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (4 years 7 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3947 times:



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 2):
my response is, how bout we SPEND LESS ON ENTITLEMENTS. What a concept.

It would be nice, but neither side is willing to do it. The conservatives will scream about deficits, but as soon as they are in power, the spending and deficits will continue.


User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5249 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (4 years 7 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3940 times:



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 8):
No kidding. I'd still like to know why those of us living and working overseas are taxed at fully regular rates if making over $82,000.

That is one area of taxation that I agree is incredibly stupid. IIRC only the US and one other country (though I can't remember which one) force their citizens living overseas to pay income tax to both the country in which they live and to their country of citizenship. If you're not living in the US, you shouldn't have to pay US income tax, simple as that.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineATTart From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 7 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3940 times:

Read my Lips...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuLWgVOLbG4&feature=related



Remember: When someone talks behind your back, it only means you're two steps ahead of them!
User currently offlineWindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2723 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (4 years 7 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3924 times:



Quoting ATTart (Reply 3):
It, about time this happens, it is about time my family and I pay our share. Also, people making $250,000.00 or more is upper middle class or higher.

You do not have to wait for the government to tell you. You could send in extra money to the government anytime you want. What are you waiting for?



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (4 years 7 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3924 times:

"We are going to have the debates televised on CSPAN"

Need I say more?

This guy will say anything, and does. Be patient his time is coming.


User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (4 years 7 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3905 times:



Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 9):
It would be nice, but neither side is willing to do it. The conservatives will scream about deficits, but as soon as they are in power, the spending and deficits will continue.

Sure, but not true conservatives, but I'm not sure those exist in politics anymore.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 8):
I'd still like to know why those of us living and working overseas are taxed at fully regular rates if making over $82,000.



Quoting OA412 (Reply 6):
but keep on pretending that this is some huge swipe against the Middle Class and yet another defeat for the Obama administration. And remind us, how exactly is an increase of 3% equivalent to a "big take hike".



Quoting ATTart (Reply 3):
It, about time this happens, it is about time my family and I pay our share. Also, people making $250,000.00 or more is upper middle class or higher.

Fine, if you two have no problem paying even more in taxes, you pay my 3% more on $50,000.

On a side note, I wonder if America were split in two, a Conservative America and a Liberal America how long it would be before the Liberals went broke through taxation. Wasn't it the notorious Winston Churchill who famously said it best:

"Some see private enterprise as a predatory target to be shot, others as a cow to be milked, but few are those who see it as a sturdy horse pulling the wagon."

"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries."

"We contend that for a nation to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle."



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineATTart From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 7 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3904 times:

Quoting Windy95 (Reply 12):
You do not have to wait for the government to tell you. You could send in extra money to the government anytime you want. What are you waiting for?

Well, my airline salary which is taxed I do donate to a charity.. This way I do know where my money it going for the most part. My other income I pay the taxes that is asked of me.

[Edited 2010-02-02 07:59:04]


Remember: When someone talks behind your back, it only means you're two steps ahead of them!
User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets87 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (4 years 7 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3900 times:

Can we go to the flat income tax rate or the national sales tax? Please?!?

Quoting ATTart (Reply 3):
It, about time this happens, it is about time my family and I pay our share.

Then what is stopping you from writing a bigger check to the IRS this April 15th and telling them to "Keep the Change"?

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 8):
No kidding. I'd still like to know why those of us living and working overseas are taxed at fully regular rates if making over $82,000.

Do you get the shaft twice and also have to pay taxes to Japan? Or how does their system work over there?


User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11276 posts, RR: 52
Reply 17, posted (4 years 7 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3898 times:

Only in the world of Republican demagoguery is the sunsetting of a tax credit a tax hike, let alone a "big" one.


Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (4 years 7 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3898 times:



Quoting ATTart (Reply 15):
Well, my airline salary I do donate to a charity.. This way I do know where my money it going for the most part. My other income I pay the taxes that is asked of me.

Well not all of us in the Middle Class have the luxury of sending an entire income to donate, and many if not all of us in the Middle Class cannot pay more in taxes. Obama is doing his best to break the back of Middle Class so he can keep trying to push his socialist agenda on us. It ain't workin out so well! Last I checked, now the Republican in Illinois is 2 points up from the Democrat. The writing is on the Wall for the left.



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5249 posts, RR: 25
Reply 19, posted (4 years 7 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3883 times:



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 14):
On a side note, I wonder if America were split in two, a Conservative America and a Liberal America how long it would be before the Liberals went broke through taxation.

Well those living in Western Europe have been paying higher taxes than us for years and I don't see where they've all gone broke as a result of taxation.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 14):
"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries."

Except that increasing taxes isn't socialism.

Quoting D L X (Reply 17):
Only in the world of Republican demagoguery is the sunsetting of a tax credit a tax hike, let alone a "big" one.

 checkmark   checkmark 

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 18):
Obama is doing his best to break the back of Middle Class so he can keep trying to push his socialist agenda on us.

Ah yes, more "socialism" bogeyman nonsense. If you think that Obama is socialist, you don't know socialism.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineATTart From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 7 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3884 times:

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 18):
Obama is doing his best to break the back of Middle Class so he can keep trying to push his socialist agenda on us.

Ok, what ever you say..... That is Obama's plan to do away with the middle class and make us a two class nation the upper and lower class...  banghead   banghead 

[Edited 2010-02-02 08:12:24]


Remember: When someone talks behind your back, it only means you're two steps ahead of them!
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 21, posted (4 years 7 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3880 times:

It has only one huge flaw in it .... " Spending to create jobs" . The ideology behind this theory is the reason we are in trouble. It is not the governments role to create jobs ! . The government is supposed to regulate , provide security and assure a fair system ... not to be the job generator in a command economy.

The president is about to be handed another huge political loss I am afraid . And it is his fault ... this was his chance to move back to the center ,show some solid cuts and make balancing a priority. Instead he turned left again ..and stuffed the budget full of government spending to do what the private sector is supposed to do.

Good luck to him and the democrats ....



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (4 years 7 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3864 times:



Quoting OA412 (Reply 19):

Well those living in Western Europe have been paying higher taxes than us for years and I don't see where they've all gone broke as a result of taxation.

Move to Western Europe then. Liberals seem to be so enamored with 'Europe'. Last I checked Europe's economies aren't in great shape either. England is broke, France is in trouble as is Spain, Portugal, etc.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 19):
Ah yes, more "socialism" bogeyman nonsense. If you think that Obama is socialist, you don't know socialism.

Keep putting your head in the sand. All evidence proves that his move to take over the banking, auto, energy, and health care industries is very socialist in nature. It's obvious that Obama loathes Capitalism. Why should he like it, he's never worked for anything, earned an honest dollar, or ran a business in his life. He went from community organizing to POTUS. His only answer to our problems is to spend more, more regulations, and more Federal oversight.

Quoting ATTart (Reply 20):
That is Obama's plan to do away with the middle class and make us a two class nation the upper and lower class...

Actually, we agree on something!  bigthumbsup  That is exactly what he'd like to do.



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineATTart From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 7 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3857 times:



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 22):
Actually, we agree on something! bigthumbsup That is exactly what he'd like to do.

 cheeky   crackup   devil 



Remember: When someone talks behind your back, it only means you're two steps ahead of them!
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6606 posts, RR: 24
Reply 24, posted (4 years 7 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3851 times:



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 14):
Sure, but not true conservatives, but I'm not sure those exist in politics anymore.

Exactly. Of course, many politicians also realize that if they actually tried to balance the budget, the cuts necessary to make it happen would enrage most of the population. Can you imagine the outrage if Obama came on air and said, "I'm going to balance the budget next year and in doing so lay-off ten million workers?"

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 21):
the job generator in a command economy.

In theory, you are correct. But what happens when the private sector (through a combination of outsourcing and technological innnovation) simply doesn't produce enough jobs relative to the population? And what happens in areas such as transportation and healthcare where the private sector simply won't work without government subsidy?


25 Racko : Wait a minute, you have to pay income tax twice if you're an american expat? So if you're earning well you're paying the US income tax AND the local
26 NIKV69 : If only we listened to Forbes and elected him President, the man was a genius. One of the best posts ever on this site.
27 OA412 : Yeah you missed the entire point of my argument. No it isn't. It is? You know this how? The money he earned from the University of Chicago was dirty?
28 Post contains images EA772LR : No I think I got it. Every time a Conservative talks about socialism someone from the left chimes in with how successful Europe is...look at the stat
29 Arrow : You guys are on the verge of being ungovernable. The left-right split is so pronounced, and so even, that each side would rather do nothing than comp
30 NIKV69 : I have but I like to see people that you and the DNC discount speak as in this November and in November of 2012. Keep going like your going. It's goi
31 Planespotting : They were. The healthcare debates in Congress were televised on C-SPAN, while the final negotiations (which are never televised) were done in private
32 Aaron747 : Well I intentionally keep myself under to avoid the shaft though I could easily go over if I picked up extra work. The Japanese tax rate for my incom
33 AGM100 : Simply put ...we live without them or learn to live with less. I know its hard to imagine ... but the cycle of spending has got to stop either by cho
34 FuturePilot16 : That quote is no better than something said by the same people who thinks that 9/11 was an inside job. "Get yer' tinfoil hats, there's a conspiracy b
35 FlyPNS1 : But without a good transportation network and healthcare system, our economy will slowly collapse anyway. Who exactly are these enemies? I don't see
36 Arrow : But as an American citizen, he still has to file an annual return to the IRS, right? As well as comply with whatever tax filing requirements exist in
37 D L X : You can't both complain that giving 95% of the people tax credits of various forms is not a tax cut, and then at the same time say that sunsetting so
38 KiwiRob : Oh boohoo try paying 47% tax you haven't got anything to complain about. You guys are under taxed and live in a (fairly) low cost country.
39 OA412 : You clearly haven't if you think that that was one of the best quotes ever written on this site. That, or you've decided to block out large parts of
40 Arrow : You're not serious, are you? Do you really want the IMF, World Bank, etc. to start running your financial affairs? Do you think a US dollar plunge of
41 OA412 : Then answer my question. Are the people of Europe themselves broke as a direct result of higher taxation? No it's not. Neither of the major parties i
42 FlyPNS1 : Of course not. It would be painful no doubt, but faced with a debt that is impossible to repay, it might be the only way.
43 AGM100 : I don't mean to imply enemies like that ... my fault for lack of a better term. I just see a slow encroachment of public control and spending over ou
44 Arrow : The US debt is not impossible to repay. The US is still the richest country in the world by almost every measuring stick -- at least for now. You are
45 Seb146 : How? Did he let the banks collapse? Did he let GM and Chrysler collapse? If he truly hates capitalism, as the right believes, he would have let all o
46 AGM100 : That is a huge problem ... but on the flip side frankly our debt has been created by both sides of our political spectrum. So ..we are left flailing
47 Aaron747 : To file, or not to file, that is the question. Since he doesn't own property or possess bank accounts in the US any longer, I can only assume he's no
48 Mt99 : I think that no government can adhere to "true" capitalism. Would we have roads? schools? parks? wars? an army?
49 JCS17 : Huh? What are you talking about? A real capitalist would've allowed those companies to fail instead of making them reliant on state aid. How about cu
50 EA772LR : I believe the U.S. has something like $106 Trillion in outstanding promises. So to that end you're right-we'll never repay that. As of right now, eac
51 Seb146 : Isn't that socialism? Do we need the new layers of government created between 2000-2008? How are those working out? This is something that has bother
52 OA412 : Funny isn't it how all of a sudden spending is a crime but when it was Reagan or Bush doing it, it wasn't such a bad thing?
53 AGM100 : Funny ? Not quite .... many of us fought against the compassionate conservative efforts of the Bush era...things that come to mind SCHIP , Prescripti
54 Dreadnought : I haven't had a chance to go through the budget in detail - I will in the next few days. But from what I have seen so far, it is absolutely stunning i
55 FuturePilot16 : Please do. Because i'm sure there are a lot of things we can cut from spending.
56 Post contains links Mt99 : Sounds like those fancy spa retreats AIG execs had after the bailouts. if it was good enough for them! http://www.nydailynews.com/money/200...ves_can
57 JCS17 : Socialism is the government propping up failing companies. Except in Homeland Security, I agree with you. Bush overspent, as well, however this budge
58 EA CO AS : How about answering the question? You say it's 'about time' that you and your family 'pay your fair share.' So I take it that until now, you've been
59 EA772LR : When you're running a $12 TRILLION deficit and you're spending 1.3-1.6 Trillion a year in deficit spending on top, and you're looking to continue to
60 ATTart : I will reply, no I do not lose sleep other than from jet lag. I do pay my taxes as I am told to. I do feel the tax cuts for the rich are lame.
61 AGM100 : Of course ... even when we extend all possible latitude to the parties , the liberals still come out on the wrong side ( IMO ) . If the conservatives
62 EA CO AS : Oh, no - you're not getting off that easy. You said: Therefore you must not believe you've been paying your share until now - regardless of what the
63 Post contains links ATTart : How am I getting off easy. I am referring to the tax cuts for the rich. How much more simpler do you want it? Even, Buffet feels the same way. http:/
64 FlyPNS1 : I think he is trying to use government spending to substitute for the private market spending that isn't happening. If Obama were to slash government
65 EA CO AS : So you're rich, then? Because again, you said: And I want to know why you haven't been paying your share until now, as you seem to believe.
66 ATTart : The fair share I am speaking of is the tax cut for the rich..[Edited 2010-02-02 12:06:58]
67 EA772LR : Well that's easy for Buffet to say. He'll have billions of additional dollars. For the median family income like mine, any raise at all on my taxes,
68 ATTart : Again, I am talking about the tax cuts for the wealthy.. I never said your family, again it is about the tax cuts for the wealthy.
69 EA CO AS : And since you claim you've not been paying your share, does that mean you're rich? How much do you make annually? I'd like to know what income level
70 Dreadnought : This is the same thing, but on a scale many thousands of times greater. Wrong. It's job is to provide us with needed services, in return for taxes. I
71 ATTart : How many ways can I put it, my fair share regarding the tax cuts for the wealthy. My family, friends and I do not agree with the tax cuts for the wea
72 OA412 : Are we really going to pretend that our national debt is not largely a result of the out-of-control spending of the Reagan years? Sort of like the ma
73 FlyPNS1 : In a few ways. While your company may not have benefited, there are many, many government contractors who are doing a booming business these days. Ta
74 Dreadnought : I see that as a problem, not a solution. Simply right-pocket / left-pocket transfers at best, racking up your credit card at worst. Is it just me, or
75 FlyPNS1 : Where's this proof? How much of the GDP gains attributed to the tax cuts really came from the housing/credit bubble that has now burst? Would all tha
76 Post contains links Dreadnought : Relatively very little, as most federal income taxes are generated by income and bonuses, not property sales. (and by the way, it hasn't really burst
77 Post contains images EA772LR : And yet, Mr. Obama is going to (or already has according to his words in his SOTU) give a tax cut to 95% of Americans. I'm perplexed as to how Mr. Ob
78 FlyPNS1 : We're talking about the big GDP gains supposedly gained, not how federal income taxes are generated.
79 Mt99 : Who cares!! Wall Street LOVES it!.. Dow: Triple-digit gain for 2nd day 4:56pm: Investors propel stocks as upbeat corporate news, better-than-expected
80 Dreadnought : OK, if you like. Here is the makeup of GDP from the end of 2007. Personal Consumption: 70% Gross Private Domestic Investment: 16% (Includes Residenti
81 Dreadnought : After taking a beating since Obama opened his mouth 2 weeks ago.
82 Mt99 : When did he present the budget?
83 Seb146 : But, I thought socialism was giving money to the poor that was taken from the rich. How can Obama be called "socialist" if he is assisting American c
84 DocLightning : Europe seems to be doing fine with much higher tax rates than we have.
85 NIKV69 : How so?
86 DocLightning : By being a first-world hegemony with the largest combined GDP in the world, a stellar record on civil rights in the last few decades, advanced infras
87 Pyrex : The main reason companies aren't hiring (and investing) is uncertainty. People are able to find ways around challenging institutional environments if
88 Arrow : That sounds a lot like America, and those Portuguese farmers could probably learn a thing or two from American lumber mill workers, or cotton farmers
89 Aaron747 : Apparently you missed the memo - there's nothing wrong with American protectionism. Why would we want better trade relations with Brazil anyway??
90 Post contains images JJJ : Pardon?
91 FlyMIA : No surprise here. Anyone who believed Obama in the first place was just A. living in Fantasy land or B plain stupid. Keep making these great decisions
92 Pyrex : Yeah, I got Excel too. So?
93 Post contains images Dreadnought : No, the right argued loudly to let badly-managed companies fail. The pain would have been sharp, but short as other better-run companies would have e
94 FlyPNS1 : Or we would have plunged into the great depression as our banking system collapsed. The only reason the deficit was coming down was because of the bu
95 Aaron747 : On what evidence are you basing this assumption? Just wondering.
96 MoltenRock : Agreed. Oh heavens! The sky is falling! My taxes are going back up to what they were under Clinton.... those dark, dark, evil, economic times! I thin
97 Post contains links Dreadnought : As opposed to giving them a whole bunch of money, but not fixing the underlying problem, which is the case we have now? We're just being set up for a
98 Post contains links JJJ : Ask Mr. Paul de Grauwe who made the graphs. http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/338
99 Post contains images FuturePilot16 : Dude, the underlying problems is that the banks are not being regulated. But every time we have this convo. about regulating banks, the GOP cover the
100 Post contains links ATTart : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CP9_kkzfN-w Both sides are known for breaking campaign promises.[Edited 2010-02-03 07:45:04]
101 MoltenRock : Tough tomatoes. They were and are unsustainable. How difficult is that to understand? It's human nature to want something for nothing, but the world
102 Dreadnought : I don't doubt it. But I disagree with the basic premise, that it is the lack of employment regulations/protections in the US that is the cause. We ha
103 Dreadnought : As I said above, they are regulated, but 90% of the regulations are useless. Utter and complete horsecrap. With the tax cuts in place, the US governm
104 Post contains links EA772LR : I've got several foreign exchange friends at the University I attend, and many of them echo what you are saying. Absolutely. The sad part is, if you
105 Aaron747 : Easy: there isn't any. Bush, like Obama, knows next to nothing about banking. He was snowed over by Paulson so he could save his friends' livelihoods
106 EA772LR : Precisely what I already knew, but was waiting for a response.
107 FlyPNS1 : There's nothing in the BEA data that goes against what I'm saying. The massive runup in the economy was due to a credit and housing bubble. The momen
108 JJJ : Thanks for your contribution. In any case I was just quoting the study as far as it told that social mobility in the EU has caught up and even surpas
109 Seb146 : Like the ones that picked up the TARP funds approved by both parties and signed by Bush? What, exactly, was included in all those budgets? Are you in
110 Dreadnought : Stop depending on talking points. How much money did the government collect based on real estate? Do a little homework. I say it is relatively peanut
111 Aaron747 : The fact that there are several megabanks rather than just one or two, some of which were far less exposed to systemic risk and in a position to hand
112 Seb146 : Did we really have to invade Iraq? Taliban and al-Qaida were in Afghanistan. We all know that, we all get that. What about Iraq? Was that really some
113 EA772LR : But why do Liberals use the bad decision to go into Iraq as an excuse for Obama to spend trillions on new entitlement programs which are a permanent
114 Post contains links MoltenRock : That simply is not true. Not now, not then, and will never be true no matter how many times conservatives use this canard. In 2000 the government had
115 Post contains links Aaron747 : As much as we might like them to be at various junctures in life, revenue projections are not facts, whether it's the White House, CBO, or Taxpayers
116 MoltenRock : History and what the spending was or wasn't is indeed a fact. The 2011 budget is a projection as I said. As is the 2010 still, until the closing data
117 Post contains images EA CO AS : And now you're talking in circles. Your quote did not reference tax cuts for the wealthy - only later did you bring that up. Again sir, you youself s
118 AGM100 : I blamed both parties .... republicans are guilty of it too. After all , they have to keep the liberal wing happy in order to secure votes . But I be
119 ATTart : No I am not, that is your view. Yes, again fair share I am talking about is the tax cuts for the wealthy. Again how many ways do I have to say.. MY F
120 FlyPNS1 : Do you think all those new homes and condos built themselves? Did all the construction workers, contractors, people at Home Depot/Lowes not have to p
121 MoltenRock : Every President since Reagan knew the imploding debt bomb was coming with the retirement of the baby boomers. Instead of using the surpluses for the
122 EA CO AS : *sigh* You obviously don't get it. Because you seem to have absolutely NO problem with determining that increased taxes are a good thing, and I want
123 ATTart : Sigh, no you don't get it. I am aloud to have my views, as my family and friends are. Just as you are aloud to agree with them or not. Again, it is m
124 RwSEA : Taxes have to be raised. The US is going broke. The party is over. To you anti-tax Republicans out there who supported these wars, how did you expect
125 AGM100 : Agreed ... the country is a lost cause .... killing Shiite pilgrims? ... that is about as far as the intellect will let them go I guess. sad. They re
126 Dreadnought : That's the whole problem. Obama wants us to dig further INTO it, not out of it. Otherwise I agree with what you said. We need austerity measures, and
127 EA772LR : We no doubt f'ed up in Iraq, I'll grant you that. But we cannot grow ourselves into prosperity by raising taxes. We also weren't involved in 2 wars,
128 RwSEA : The first step to growing prosperity is to dig out of this mess. And there's no way to do that with cuts alone. You can keep charging to a credit car
129 Arrow : You're not going to grow yourselves into prosperity, period. Those days are long gone, and whatever growth you can manage will be muted in contrast t
130 FlyPNS1 : I agree with you, except that the overwhelming majority of the population would riot. The elderly would scream if you took 20% of their checks. Farme
131 Dreadnought : Those who get government checks would be pretty upset. That is exactly why it is so dangerous to create all these redistribution programs - people be
132 MoltenRock : You've got to be kidding me. This mantra of "growing into prosperity" is a canard. Do you know how Asia does it, and how America did it? By saving mo
133 MoltenRock : Where did you come up with the 40% and then 50% figure?
134 Post contains images Buddys747 : Some of you on here should work for FIX news   Just the headline sounds like that's where it came from. The middle class is not going to get big tax
135 Post contains links Dreadnought : Either throw them off the dole (be lowering theshholds), or reduce the amounts of the payments. Absolute, cut everything across the board. What part
136 Aaron747 : Yes, yes, and yes. You forgot that a 20% cut in subsidies to corn farmers would amount to around $35K each, along with other types of farming. Educat
137 Zentraedi : Why haven't Republicans ever taken action to abolish two of the biggest and incredibly inefficient entitlement programs running? Why is it so taboo t
138 PlanesNTrains : Great post! Probably the most enjoyable post! Another great post! And that's the scary, scary part - that NOBODY knows how to fix it, not here, not e
139 WarRI1 : This is because the Republicans and Democrats after they arrive in D.C. think only of being re-elected. These are entitlements and subsidies that get
140 FlyPNS1 : I don't think Social Security or Medicare were really designed to buy votes. And to be fair, people do pay into these programs so it's not like they
141 EA772LR : Unfortunately you are correct. This mess is not entirely Obama's fault. My frustration with Obama is because it's completely obvious that he and his
142 MoltenRock : Not only that but no one of that generation could have anticipated the HUGE increase in nursing home care costs. You can easily spend $5,000 a month
143 AGM100 : They do not deserve our trust ...period. Like Glenn Beck says ..we will put the ankle bracelet (reference to house arrest) on them. Or .. a Reagan qu
144 MoltenRock : That's what ALL OF THE CONSERVATIVES DO. Trying to pooh pooh it and push it aside as if it never happened or they were "not real Republicans" is inte
145 AGM100 : I see ya work-in ... but that is not true the republican platform has always been free market capitalism and small government.. The Dem's are of cour
146 MoltenRock : NO! That's always what they've said! Not what they actually believe in. It's easy to pay lip service to something when you are like Rush, and in the
147 EA772LR : That's easy to say, but Bush assumed office during the beginnings of a recession that was magnified by September 11th. He needed to pass something th
148 Post contains links ATTart : There is also in fighting the Republican party also..... Both parties need to wake up... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yo7HiQRM7BA&feature=player_em
149 EA772LR : Believe me I know. I'm no Republican. I'm conservative, and absolutely DONE with the Republicans and obviously the Democrats too. That's why this who
150 ATTart : I agree.. I am more of a moderate independent. The Tea Party Gang also as it extremist in it, as does the left and the right. There is in fighting be
151 EA772LR : Hey, it's politics...there's always gonna be fighting! At this point, I don't care. I want leadership that represents my wishes as best as possible,
152 MoltenRock : My unpleasant exchanges and experience with The Tea Party movement is that it is filled with angry white people. Scratch the surface of 90% of them an
153 Post contains images EA772LR : That's as ignorant as Obama's speech on Fiscal Responsibility! This shows your total Liberal bias, and that you really don't understand what and who
154 Arrow : I don't mean to single out your particular quotes here as an example, because there lots of them on the left side of the spectrum too. But yours trig
155 Post contains links and images mt99 : Or.. you can just not pay taxes   ANCHORAGE, Alaska – Records show that Sarah Palin has not paid any property taxes on cabins that have be
156 Aaron747 : According to that very article this is a non-starter. Alaska state law places the responsibility of updated land assessments in the hands of the loca
157 MoltenRock : While your question was directed to someone else, I must say, I've been very very shocked here at a.net on what passes as political debate. When I fi
158 Post contains images CaliAtenza : so another thread that turns into partisan bickering. You guys on the Right..jesus christ give this socialism crap a rest...please...i think everyone
159 cws818 : Well we have a Democratic president and have an absence of scandals involving interns. They have to find something to complain about - no matter how
160 Post contains images AirStairs : Thank you! There is some kind of inexplicable hatred of people who make money in this country, but at the same time no qualms about spending their mo
161 WarRI1 : Well aren' we? This is not the dark ages. I guess to some, it is back to the poor farms and debters prisons as a preferred alternative to paying a fa
162 MoltenRock : The only explanation I've been able to ever come up with for this phenomenon of the youngest, and / or poorest working class people being card and wa
163 LOT767-300ER : It really is pointless to even enter these threads and argue with people who believe that all the young and poorest people are Republican and have so
164 WarRI1 : I try to look at the big picture, I know there are many deadbeats, cheats etc taking without giving back to the system. I also know that the governme
165 Pellegrine : Please. Obama isn't about to raise taxes on the middle class. The expiration of tax cuts are NOT a tax raise. The only tax raises coming on the upper
166 Sydscott : Having worked in the US in a Tax Accounting firm, I was appalled by the number of special deductions available to industries with effective lobbyists
167 Post contains links and images MoltenRock : Agreed. When they passed the garbage bill back in Bush's first term they made them temporary because the only way to make the numbers work was to use
168 MoltenRock : Amen! The military spending could be slashed in 1/2 saving $350 billion or more per year, without affecting the safety of America. The military simpl
169 Dreadnought : Oh, please. After a full decade of rates being at one level, this is a tax increase. And it's not just on the rich. The lowest brackets will go up by
170 Post contains images MoltenRock : Awwww! The horror of it all! Give me a break, there are so many tax shields, tax planning, and exemptions to the estate tax it's not even funny. The
171 AirStairs : Or maybe they just realize that they don't deserve what they haven't earned, just like the rest of us?
172 Pellegrine : Call it whatever. I do not even care. Bush shouldn't have cut these taxes in the first place, while spending trillions in global wars! I HATE taxes a
173 Dreadnought : There is a difference. The traditional Republican platform is one that calls for lower spending and less government interference. Elected Republicans
174 Sydscott : And Bush had 8 years to do something about that and did nothing! Yes the Republicans are happy to lay all of the blame on a guy who has been there ju
175 Dreadnought : Who blocked all attempts to reform Social Security so that there would not be such an unfunded liability? Who blocked all attempts at reforming the m
176 Sydscott : The Republicans had the majority in the Congress from when Clinton was in Office so if they had wanted reform they could have negotiated to get it. T
177 Arrow : This is something I've never been able to understand, and it transcends left vs. right. How can you establish a program like SS and not implement a f
178 Pyrex : Would that be the same government that underwrites 80% of all new mortgages and is sitting on over $200 billion of losses (with a blank check for muc
179 Boeingfever777 : Well said... Where are all the anetters that supported Obama now? Pre - election slogan - "Change we can believe in" Post - election slogan - "Lies w
180 Sydscott : Ask yourself the question "why did they have to do that"? The answer is because Fannie, Freddie, FHA etc did not accurately price the risk of the bus
181 Dreadnought : I agree, on the whole. But your take on "the George Bush you're either with us or against us mentality" is severely out of context. That was meant to
182 Post contains images Sydscott : So we agree in principle but not in detail. In a political thread lets take that as a win shall we?   You can if you want too but we both know that
183 Post contains links Boeingfever777 : Whats driving Obamas unprecedented massive deficits? Spending. * President Bush expanded the federal budget by a historic $700 billion through 2008.
184 Post contains images EA772LR : The perfect response    Well said! Exactly. These elections we've seen are not a return or gain in Republican popularity so much as it
185 Sydscott : But this goes to the core of what I don't understand in that I aside from the Republicans saying they wouldn't have Health Care etc I can't see what
186 EA772LR : Well we'll never know. It's one of those times where unfortunately, the minority (in this case the Republicans) can bitch all they want and say they'
187 MoltenRock : They don't know what they believe, because they don't know any of the issues. They only have talking points. You have to understand in the US, the Ne
188 AirStairs : Who's fault is that? The argument could be made that banks and credit card companies extended too much credit, but at the end of the day it is the co
189 Sydscott : So you mean they wouldn't have spend that money at all OR they would have spent it but on different things? If the Republicans hadn't spend the money
190 Boeingfever777 : They should have. Big 3 was dead years ago and besides Ford Motor Corp has had terrible caviler leadership. Go Mulally! Should of along with half the
191 AirStairs : You are getting more ridiculous and outlandish as time progresses. Now, you would have us believe that Democrats are the enlightened, reasonable, uns
192 Post contains images EA772LR : The Tea Parties I've attended are made up mostly fed up Conservative/Independents/Moderates who are sick of the back breaking deficit spending by Rep
193 Boeingfever777 : I only say this due to what I have learned from how poorly managed and mis-guided this companies all are. Ford can give Mulally $57.5 million in bonu
194 MoltenRock : Riiight. And the American economy would be flat on it's back, 25% unemployment and climbing, and a global depression. They should have never been all
195 Post contains images Boeingfever777 : Whatever man... The $700 billion Economic Stimulus Emergency Stabilization Act is all taxpayer money ok... I have not seen a dime of that. Close to $
196 Post contains images Sydscott : Ok, so the obvious question to you Boeingfever is if the Big 3 Car Company's did go bust, what would you replace them with in places like Michigan? I
197 MoltenRock : I agree Chrysler should have failed, but you listed virtually every large bank in America that needed bailing out. Corporations are taxpayers too ya
198 Post contains images ken777 : Let's face reality - guns & butter doesn't work. Bush pushed through his large tax cut through reconciliation (avoiding a filibuster) and then mad
199 Boeingfever777 : Just because a company has to file bankruptcy does not mean the US economy takes some catastrophic hit as you are saying. Anyway the thread is not ab
200 MoltenRock : Not only it "doesn't work", but it's never worked, anywhere, ever in history. The USA cheated the rule for awhile during the past 3 +/- decades it wa
201 cws818 : How do you come up with "most Americans"? I'm pretty sure that many people think Obama is trying to do more than just spending alone.
202 MoltenRock : This is the thing conservatives just don't get. This "just say no" mantra isn't doing anyone any good. Not the Democrats, not the Republicans, and mo
203 Pellegrine : If taxes have to go up, they have too. No use crying about it now, when Bush never should have cut taxes in the first place. Bush's budget was NEVER
204 Post contains links and images EA772LR : Why do liberals keep propagating this BS? Got a source for this? Proof that this would have been the certain outcome? JFK was no where near as libera
205 ken777 : And the Conservatives of the day were no where as far to the hard right as they are today. To Republicans of the day, JFK was pretty liberal and his
206 MoltenRock : Have you ever read about the socio-economic conditions caused by the decision to let banks fail in the Great Depression? Be honest. In addition to th
207 Post contains links EA772LR : Not read, but did watch several documentaries in my Micro/Macroeconomics courses on the mistakes to not put more money into the system in the midst o
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