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Vermont: Own A Gun Or Pay Fine Of $500  
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8869 posts, RR: 24
Posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4790 times:

This should make some liberal heads explode...

(fair note: I am not sure that this has actually gone ahead or not - maybe a Vermonter here can shed some light)

http://news-political.com/2009/11/30...ntative-proposes-sensible-gun-law/

Vermont State Rep. Fred Maslack has read the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, as well as Vermont ’s own Constitution very carefully, and his strict interpretation of these documents is popping some eyeballs in New England and elsewhere.

Maslack recently proposed a bill to register “non-gun-owners” and require them to pay a $500 fee to the state. Thus Vermont would become the first state to require a permit for the luxury of going about unarmed and assess a fee of $500 for the privilege of not owning a gun.

Maslack read the “militia” phrase of the Second Amendment as not only affirming the right of the individual citizen to bear arms, but as a clear mandate to do so. He believes that universal gun ownership was advocated by the Framers of the Constitution as an antidote to a “monopoly of force” by the government as well as criminals.

Vermont ’s constitution states explicitly that “the people have a right to bear arms for the defense of themselves and the State” and those persons who are “conscientiously scrupulous of bearing arms” shall be required to “pay such equivalent.” Clearly, says Maslack, Vermonters have a constitutional obligation to arm themselves, so that they are capable of responding to “any situation that may arise.”


Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
71 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlyMIA From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7215 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4788 times:

Well looks like it might actually say that, But I think the best thing to do is reword the consitution and not make people who dont own guns pay. Seems like the logical thing to do.


"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6127 posts, RR: 29
Reply 2, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4763 times:
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I have enough guns to arm 39 Vermonters who aren't fortunet enough to own firearms.  


My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15794 posts, RR: 27
Reply 3, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4762 times:

I'm not sure what is more surprising here, the fact that this guy is proposing this or the fact that this idea did not come out of Texas.   


Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 4, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4732 times:

The City of Kennesaw in the State of Georgia supposedly also has a law like this. But it's one of those old laws that are still on the books and nobody cares about other than for curiosity value. . .

On the other hand, might be a good idea to register those pro-gun control people. After all, they want to come after your guns, with their guns.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinetexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4280 posts, RR: 52
Reply 5, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4717 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):

He proposed this bill in 2000 too. It didn't pass then and it still is not law. Otherwise I would've been fined $500 the past couple of years   Since I was at the only law school in the state, I'm pretty sure we would've discussed it further if the idea had any actual merit or support behind it!

Although it would confuse me if you were in favor of this since it is a tax on the lack of gun ownership, and your anti-tax stance is abundantly clear. As is your stance on forced expenditures based on government directives (which is still, essentially, a tax)!

A separate article on this same issue from over a decade ago brought up an interesting question based on this and the military's "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy: "If Vermont recognizes gay marriage, and gays are barred from serving in the military, would Vermonters in same-sex marriages be exempt from militia duty?" Hmmmm . . .

Texan

edited to add: Actually, there is no Fred Maslack in the VT Legislature anymore. Hasn't been there in at least a few years. He was from East Poultney, Vermont, though. Again, this is a 10-year old article  Wink

[Edited 2010-02-22 08:49:03]


"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6127 posts, RR: 29
Reply 6, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4693 times:
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Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):
On the other hand, might be a good idea to register those pro-gun control people

Some cities like to post the names of people with concealed weapons permits in the newspaper in order to scare people. I would be mad if I didn't have a concealed permit. By not having your name on the list it just tells everyone that you probably are not armed. If I was planning to rob some houses I would be checking out the list of concealed carry people and avoiding their homes. The average thug would not be likely to do that, but the proffesional thief might.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
or the fact that this idea did not come out of Texas.

That is shocking  



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7714 posts, RR: 21
Reply 7, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4685 times:

What a pathetic, stupid proposal.


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8869 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4659 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 6):
Some cities like to post the names of people with concealed weapons permits in the newspaper in order to scare people.


I have a Concealed-Carry permit, and I wouldn't mind. Hell, I wouldn't mind having a sign in front of my property saying, "This house is owned by gun-owners who know how to use them."

I heard an interesting bit of information when I took my concealed carry test. Apparently, in the state of Kentucky, no person who had the permit has ever been convicted of using their gun to kill someone where the use of the weapon was found to be unlawful.

So it's not the registered users and concealed-carriers who are the problem - it's the jackoffs running around without registering. I was watching a COPS episode recently and they pulled a kid walking down the street and found he had a fully automatic MAC-9 in his pants.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinedxing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4659 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
I'm not sure what is more surprising here, the fact that this guy is proposing this or the fact that this idea did not come out of Texas.

Not so much freedom or unity over this one in Vermont I'll bet eh?   

Quoting texan (Reply 5):
A separate article on this same issue from over a decade ago brought up an interesting question based on this and the military's "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy: "If Vermont recognizes gay marriage, and gays are barred from serving in the military, would Vermonters in same-sex marriages be exempt from militia duty?" Hmmmm . .

They are exempt right now unless they volunteer to serve are they not? Or does Vermont have a conscription law for its State National Guard?


User currently offlinetexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4280 posts, RR: 52
Reply 10, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4645 times:

Quoting dxing (Reply 11):
They are exempt right now unless they volunteer to serve are they not? Or does Vermont have a conscription law for its State National Guard?

Correct, they are exempt. The article was asking, if this law was passed and citizens were required to carry guns to help form a militia, would Vermonters in same-sex marriages be exempt. It is a moot point, just a hypothetical the article raised.

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 30
Reply 11, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4634 times:

I'm moving to Vermont   


Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8869 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4621 times:

As far as I know, DADT is a federal law concerning federal forces.

Now you might say that national guard units can be called up by the federal government, and those troops would need to abide by federal regulations.

The solution is to have all-gay national guard units, which would stay behind in case of a national call-up (No state ever sends their ENTIRE Guard force). I can just picture it - Their banner would be a flower on a pastel background. Their marching song would be "Fairies Wear Boots". Shower-time at the end of the day would be very interesting.

Sorry, I don't mean to offend, but you have to admit you can have a bit of fun with the concept  



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineea772lr From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4585 times:

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 1):
Well looks like it might actually say that, But I think the best thing to do is reword the consitution and not make people who dont own guns pay. Seems like the logical thing to do.

That would be a slippery slope. Once you start changing the Constitution to suit local needs, then whee does it stop? The Constitution suddenly has no authority and we might as well throw it out.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 2):
I have enough guns to arm 39 Vermonters who aren't fortunet enough to own firearms.

Haha me too. Just bought a Saiga .308, put a Tapco pistol grip/collapsible stock, and two 20 rd clips.  
My Saiga .308



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6645 posts, RR: 24
Reply 14, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4581 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):
Hell, I wouldn't mind having a sign in front of my property saying, "This house is owned by gun-owners who know how to use them."

As long as you don't mind having your house vandalized when you leave.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8869 posts, RR: 24
Reply 15, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4559 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 16):

As long as you don't mind having your house vandalized when you leave.

A few years ago I lived in a somewhat bad part of town where some gangs would operate. I had a sign in my window that said "Intruders will be shot. Survivors will be shot again." One night we had break-ins in several houses right next door to me - about half the houses. They didn't bother me. Draw your own conclusions - maybe it was related, maybe not.

I live in a much better neighborhood now.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineIMissPiedmont From United States of America, joined May 2001, 6309 posts, RR: 33
Reply 16, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4447 times:

If Arizona passed a law like that I'd give up all my guns to make them try to fine me.


Damn, this website is getting worse daily.
User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1987 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4438 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
This should make some liberal heads explode...

I'm not sure why this wouldn't make conservative's heads explode too. Proposing more government involvement in people's lives. Taking people's money.


User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 18, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4410 times:

My biggest problem with this proposal in Vermont is that universal conscription is not clearly called for, and the constitution's amendments are more about preserving and ennumerating rights rather than obligating people to do things. I don't read it as mandating the government to do something outside of time of war. It's tricky, though.

Plus, don't they all have guns anyway? Or is that just New Hampshire?

Quoting falstaff (Reply 2):
I have enough guns to arm 39 Vermonters who aren't fortunet enough to own firearms.

HAH!!! I'm still laughing at that one.....I think I'll pass it along.....very considerate of you to volunteer!

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):
The City of Kennesaw in the State of Georgia supposedly also has a law like this. But it's one of those old laws that are still on the books and nobody cares about other than for curiosity value. . .

It's actually a modern law (city ordinance), passed about 25 or 30 years ago, and since then violent crime (with one or two notable exceptions) has decreased dramatically in that region. It had a problem and now much less so. To be fair if one is a conscientious objector to the concept one is not prosecuted for not owning a firearm, nor does anyone check on it. But it's still known that most homes there are occupied by armed inhabitants. Sort of makes it almost as silly to invade a home in Kennessaw as it would be in Switzerland. Armed society/polite society.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlinedxing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4409 times:

Quoting texan (Reply 12):
Correct, they are exempt. The article was asking, if this law was passed and citizens were required to carry guns to help form a militia, would Vermonters in same-sex marriages be exempt. It is a moot point, just a hypothetical the article raised.

That makes much more sense.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 16):
As long as you don't mind having your house vandalized when you leave.

Fortunately my neighbors are armed as well and as we saw here in Houston a little over a year ago, you can use deadly force to protect your neighbors property, especially if you feel threatened.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 28):
I'm not sure why this wouldn't make conservative's heads explode too. Proposing more government involvement in people's lives. Taking people's money.

Save that this is in the Constitution which helps to define the government/citizen relationship.

[Edited 2010-02-22 13:42:01 by srbmod]

User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 30
Reply 20, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4353 times:

Once again a good thread ruined...


Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2896 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4337 times:

Really America needs to get away from this gun ownership obsession thing and direct it's energies towards something that is going to benefit it's citizens overall, like addressing the medical insurance problems, or the chronic homelessness in some US cities, etc. Problems which are faced by most countries around the world, but this is just plain crazy !   

To impose a tax on people who choose NOT to own a gun is one of the most ridiculous things I think I've ever heard in my life.

This obsession of gun ownership by Americans, is something that I will never understand   



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineea772lr From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4315 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 38):
To impose a tax on people who choose NOT to own a gun is one of the most ridiculous things I think I've ever heard in my life.

So is imposing a tax on people who choose NOT to buy health insurance like in the failed HCR. Your point is?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 38):
This obsession of gun ownership by Americans, is something that I will never understand

First of all, it's not an obsession, it's a right. Secondly, have you read the Constitution?



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8869 posts, RR: 24
Reply 23, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4310 times:

Quoting ea772lr (Reply 41):
So is imposing a tax on people who choose NOT to buy health insurance like in the failed HCR. Your point is?

Oh damn, I was hoping to let more and more lefties to put their foot there, and now you've closed the trap 



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinedxing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4350 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 38):
Really America needs to get away from this gun ownership obsession thing and direct it's energies towards something that is going to benefit it's citizens overall, like addressing the medical insurance problems, or the chronic homelessness in some US cities, etc.

I don't think there is a gun ownership "obsession" so much as there is a major resistance to being told by the government that we have to some how ignore a whole amendment that defines our rights to gun ownership in the Bill of Rights. I own both a handgun and a long gun. They sit in the closet ready to be used if necessary. I go to the range and fire them at least once a year, some times twice. Does that make me obsessed? I certainly pair up pretty well to many of my neighbors and how they treat their firearms.

A lot of us would like to, and have wanted to, address medical insurance reform but again, do not trust government in our country to run any sort of nationalized program. Many of the homeless want to be in the position they are in. They refuse long term help and in that regard the courts have backed them up.


25 Post contains images TheCommodore : So if you get sick and have no insurance, why should I pay?. Point being your choosing to have NIL insurance effects me and my hip pocket, but my cho
26 ATTart : I just love how you go around and telling people how they should be living their lives or what they should believe in!!! I do not own a gun and I do
27 Post contains images TheCommodore : Is this not an open topic/ discussion for all to partake in ? Or is it only open to Americans to comment on this. If it is you had better restrict th
28 ea772lr : The difference is owning a weapon is a right, health care is not. Because I have a 'Right To Bear Arms' does that mean that because it's my right, th
29 dxing : If someone foolishly tries to break into my home. If there is another hurricane more devastating than Ike and I need to defend my home from looters s
30 TheCol : I agree, but US internal affairs doesn't concern those of us in the Commonwealth. I don't mind sharing information about what works and what doesn't
31 Post contains images TheCommodore : This is going off topic, but to answer you, IMHO,there is no need to have a gun to protect your home from break-in's or looters because if these robb
32 DeltaMD90 : Yeah, I'd say I'm more Conservative but this is pretty dumb. Why not, they're fun! Not all gun owners want to shoot up people. I hope never ever to s
33 cpd : And they call it the land of the free...
34 DocLightning : It should make Conservatives explode a lot more forcefully. Do you honestly mean to tell me that a Conservative would like a law that mandates that s
35 Post contains images OA412 : Good lord! Why in the world does any single person need to own that many guns? I vote for the latter. Most criminals wouldn't give your threat a seco
36 Post contains images TheCommodore : Are you saying then that the constitution can/should never be amended because once you start the whole thing will fall in a heap ? a bit like saying
37 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : Ha, we may never know the answer to the government vs citizens but I know some parts of the South were the only way to overrun them is to kill every
38 DocLightning : The first ten amendments have a very special symbolic meaning because they constitute the Bill of Rights. Although it is technically permissible to t
39 cptkrell : "What do I think?" I think I really like dxing's attitude. Problem here in America, our liberal judges via their liberal attorneys (and I mean "their"
40 OA412 : Source or proof for any of that? The primary use of vehicles and Lockheed Constellation models is not as an assault weapon that can bring about deadl
41 DfwRevolution : Some of us feel it prudent to prepare for the contingency that our friendly neighborhood police will not be able to come to our assistance in certain
42 DocLightning : Or as a warning to pack heat before trying to break in to your place.
43 Post contains images Dreadnought : Meet the Judge: I love this for home defense. Fires a shotgun shell with 00 Buckshot. If I meet someone in my hallway, him with his stolen Glock and
44 Post contains images TheCommodore : No gun NO threat and NO victim. !!
45 DocLightning : So if he's a professional thief, then he should probably own one of these.
46 DfwRevolution : I may be prejudice against people who commit armed robberies and home invasions, but my perception is that many of them make the decision to fire on
47 Dreadnought : "Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explain
48 cptkrell : OA712 to my Reply 40; "...source of proof for any of that?..." Yeah every goddamn morning on TV news and the print and the professional law enforcemen
49 OA412 : In other words you have no proof and no source to provide. That's the best you can do?
50 Post contains images Springbok747 : What about knives? Should we ban those too? After all there was a student in Brisbane who was stabbed by his classmate and died..and don't tell me kn
51 Post contains links FLY2HMO : http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41_2.htm I dunno dude, after reading that it doesn't sound to promising...
52 Post contains images TheCommodore : Sound like you'll fit in just fine ! Yes we should ban knives in schools, no need to have a knife at school, ever. Unless of course its for home scie
53 cptkrell : OA412; Yeah; read what I said AGAIN...that's proof and source(s) and furthermore I don't have to do any better. Crime stats from wherever you access w
54 Post contains links Dreadnought : He was probably too far away. The whole idea of this gun is near-point-blank range. I use 3 inch magnum shells that fire 5 pellets. Got it for Christ
55 dxing : That's actually not true. Most buglars do not carry a gun since it automatically adds a mandatory sentence on top of what they receive for the burgla
56 OA412 : In other words, you're asking us to take your word for it. And to do your work for you by looking up the stats ourselves. I don't think so. Unless yo
57 Post contains images AirframeAS : By the time the cops arrive, you'd probably be dead already if the thugs have not found you. Does that sound good to you? Try protecting your home an
58 Post contains images TheCommodore : So what is the cost to society then ? If you go back to the start, I was not just referring to drug addicts, I was referring to mental health patient
59 cptkrell : OA412; I'm under no obligation to prove to you known fact, however instead of my better judgement that says I'm conversing with a deaf-man, my brother
60 AirframeAS : I should have re-worded that correctly: Try protecting you and your family and possessions unarmed against a thug who is armed. By the time the cops
61 dxing : Whatever it costs to put them on trial and then house them in a prison once they are caught doing something illegal which doesn't usually take long.
62 Post contains images IMissPiedmont : Well, I like my guns in the same way I like my hammers and wrenches but I've always found the touch of a woman to much better.
63 Post contains images ea772lr : Oh puleeze!! What a line of crap. Criminals obviously aren't moral, and many aren't smart, but non of them have a death wish. And?? Is their obsessio
64 AirframeAS : The process here in Colorado is very, very similar.
65 Post contains images TheCommodore : My point being. If guns weren't so freely available in society then criminals would not be able to attain them. Pure and SIMPLE !
66 shizzlmizzl : Great comparison. Ever thought, that firing a gun at someone is easier than killing somebody with a knife or with a car... Well thats the problem, yo
67 Post contains images AirframeAS : The problem is this.........
68 ea772lr : Ok, I've got a perfect solution: Once it's been proven that all criminals and those who possess guns illegally have been rid of their guns, I'll give
69 TheCol : Like other contraband smuggled into various countries on a regular basis? If you haven't seen the movie "Lord of War", I suggest you watch it. Since
70 Post contains images Cadet57 : Yeah you keep telling yourself that
71 srbmod : Since once again a topic regarding guns had strayed into an off-topic discussion about crime and gun control, this thread is not locked. If you wish t
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