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White House Proposal For Health Care  
User currently offlineken777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8188 posts, RR: 8
Posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4032 times:

The White House has posted their Health Care proposals on the Internet in advance of the "Summit" on Thursday. The link is below and I'll keep an eye out for the Republican's post, which will hopefully be today.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/health-care-meeting/proposal/titlei

217 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinealberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2911 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4023 times:

Quoting ken777 (Thread starter):
I'll keep an eye out for the Republican's post, which will hopefully be today

Why ? You know that no matter how good the proposal is they will hate it anyway since its not coming from a Republican presiden.



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineken777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8188 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4016 times:

Quoting alberchico (Reply 1):
You know that no matter how good the proposal is they will hate it anyway

If they come up with something besides insurance company candy (tort reform and cross state line selling) they may well bring something to the table worth talking about. I think Obama would jump on that one.


User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4007 times:

Quoting alberchico (Reply 1):
Why ? You know that no matter how good the proposal is they will hate it anyway since its not coming from a Republican presiden.

Blame the GOP Blame the GOP, ignore the fact that the DNC did not need a single GOP vote to get it passed the first time. The DNC couldn't get their own votes. Stop blaming us for your shortcomings already and your weakness and your failures. Christ man you trumped up a stupid bill that completely sucked and your still going to sit there and blame us? Ted Kennedy is rolling over in his grave because a heavily Dem state told you and Obama and Pelosi to STOP!! Stop the propaganda, stop the hate mongering. Start with getting people back to work. Slash taexes down to nothing, give businesses a tax holiday so they can get people working. Then give them more tax breaks for each employee they give health care too. Start with something that makes sense and not some stupid far left vision from Nancy Pelosi. You can't even see that the country is rejecting you. From NJ to MA to NV and November will be your demise. You still sit there and blame us. I can't even begin to even describe your elitism, arrogance and ignorance but I tell you it's going to be gratifying to watch the look on all your faces when you don't call the shots in congress anymore.

Stop the propaganda and start listening and leading.


User currently offlinecws818 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1176 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3997 times:

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 3):
I can't even begin to even describe your elitism, arrogance and ignorance but I tell you it's going to be gratifying to watch the look on all your faces when you don't call the shots in congress anymore.

Arrogance and ignorance are also found on the right.



volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
User currently onlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8788 posts, RR: 24
Reply 5, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3990 times:

The new proposal does not (again) define what a proper minimal medical policy should cover, so does not even get to first base in targeting more affordable health care.

So maybe Obama did remove that $100 million payoff to Nebraska that Sen. Nelson insisted be inserted into the Senate bill. He left in place the $300 million Louisiana Purchase for Sen. Landrieu’s vote. Obama’s version rejects the House Stupak amendment prohibiting taxpayer funds to subsidize abortions in favor of the watered down Senate language. This violates Obama’s earlier pledge that abortion will not be funded. He has caved in further to Union demands.

In poll, after poll, after poll, after poll, not to mention the Senate race in Massachusetts where the issue was front and center, the American people have demanded Congress and the President start over from scratch. Yet, here they are once again trying to force this same garbage down our throats.

As I have said many times here - I want health care reform. But not this crap.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineken777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8188 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3976 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
The new proposal does not (again) define what a proper minimal medical policy should cover, so does not even get to first base in targeting more affordable health care.

Minimal medical policies will continually be changing, based on advanced in medicine. My preference is to motivate the use of these advances, and reducing their high costs through high volumes.

But there is going to be a long string of arguments and debates and, maybe, civil discussions, about how much care is provided to people in this country. It will either be because of cost restrains of a public system, or cost restraints from private insurance companies, or a combination of both- like we have now.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
He left in place the $300 million Louisiana Purchase for Sen. Landrieu’s vote.

While I won't cry at the change for Nebraska I am more supportive of the funds for Louisiana. That state is still reeling from Katrina and I have no problems with above average Federal support. In fact I believe it will be needed for quite a long time.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
In poll, after poll, after poll, after poll, not to mention the Senate race in Massachusetts where the issue was front and center, the American people have demanded Congress and the President start over from scratch.

Some Americans want to start over.

Some Americans want to go with a public pan - single payer for all.

Some Americans want a blend, at a reasonable cost.

But the only people really DEMANDING that we start over are the Republicans and the Health Insurance Companies.


User currently offlinedxing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3961 times:

Quoting ken777 (Reply 2):
If they come up with something besides insurance company candy (tort reform and cross state line selling) they may well bring something to the table worth talking about. I think Obama would jump on that one.

Which means that you are not interested in bipartisanship so the GOP voting enmasse "no" are only defending their principles of which you just rejected.

Quoting ken777 (Reply 6):
Some Americans want to start over.

Some Americans want to go with a public pan - single payer for all.

Some Americans want a blend, at a reasonable cost.

But the only people really DEMANDING that we start over are the Republicans and the Health Insurance Companies.

That's incorrect.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/233890

"In the latest NEWSWEEK Poll, the majority of Americans are opposed to President Obama's health-care reform plan—until they learn the details."

When you look at specifics that the public supports, they are also things that the GOP supports.

1. A new insurance marketplace.
2. Health insurers should be required to cover anyone who applies, including those with preexisting conditions.
3. Requiring most businesses to offer health insurance to their employees, with incentives for small-business owners to do so.

The public also agrees with the GOP about what they don't like about the plan as well.

1. Imposing a fine on individuals who do not buy health insurance was the least popular provision only 28 percent and opposed by 62 percent.
2. Fifty-five percent opposed the so-called Cadillac tax on the most expensive health-insurance plans.

So there is some consensus between the two parties. The problem is that the democratic paty, the President, the Speaker, and the Majority Leader have completely ignored virtually all of the big items that are important to the GOP and conservatives. They also seem to have decided that come hell or high water they will ram through those things that the public in general says they don't agree with. That's one of the big reasons there is very little support for passing the Obama plan.

I find it interesting that the WH chose today to come out with this when their highly publicized summit with the GOP is not to take place until next weekend. If the President and democratic party leaders have made up their minds that this is what they want, what point in the summit?


User currently offlinedxing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3929 times:

After reading the plan I have a few questions. How is it going to reduce cost when, according to the plan:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/health-care-meeting/proposal/titlei

"◦New plans will have to offer preventive care and immunizations at no cost
◦New plans will have to cover an enrollee’s dependent children until age 26; "


The CBO said long ago that testing everyone for everything "preventitive care" will not be cost effective and will, in the short term, end up costing far more than testing those with a higher degree of risk. Secondly, a "26" year old child? He can't be serious.

"◦Provide rebates to consumers from insurance companies when they spend a large percentage of consumers’ premiums on advertising, bonuses and other administrative expenses instead of patient care;"

Then can we get a tax rebate when the government spends millions on a superbowl ad promoting the census?

Then there are the spending ideas:

Invest in Community Health Centers.
Community health centers play a critical role in providing quality care in underserved areas. About 1,250 centers provide care to 20 million people, with an emphasis on preventive and primary care. The Senate bill increases funding to these centers for services by $7 billion and for construction by $1.5 billion over 5 years. The House bill provides $12 billion over the same 5 years. Bridging the difference, the President’s Proposal invests $11 billion in these centers.


Perhaps if the President would look at the Rio Grand Valley in Texas, and look at all the new medical practices that have opened up there in the past few years, part of the 7000 doctors that have hung their shingles in our State since tort reform was enacted he could see a way to save money instead of spending more.

Then there is the outright lie "If you like your insurance you get to keep it".

Extend Consumer Protections against Health Insurer Practices.
The Senate bill includes a “grandfather” policy that allows people who like their current coverage, to keep it. The President’s Proposal adds certain important consumer protections to these “grandfathered” plans. Within months of legislation being enacted, it requires plans to cover adult dependents up to age 26, prohibits rescissions, mandates that plans have a stronger appeals process, and requires State insurance authorities to conduct annual rate review, backed up by the oversight of the HHS Secretary. When the exchanges begin in 2014, the President’s Proposal adds new protections that prohibit all annual and lifetime limits, ban pre-existing condition exclusions, and prohibit discrimination in favor of highly compensated individuals. Beginning in 2018, the President’s Proposal requires “grandfathered” plans to cover proven preventive services with no cost sharing.


The highlighted areas are direct contradictions. His statement was, is, and will remain a flat out lie. It's actually the line that started the disbelief in his and the liberals grand plan to begin with.

And then there is the continued unconstitutional requirement for someone to purchase health insurance or face legal action. It has been even further made ridiculous by the Presidents plan:

Improve Individual Responsibility.
The President’s Proposal adopts the Senate approach but lowers the flat dollar assessments, and raises the percent of income assessment that individuals pay if they choose not to become insured. Specifically, it lowers the flat dollar amounts from $495 to $325 in 2015 and $750 to $695 in 2016. Subsequent years are indexed to $695 rather than $750, so the flat dollar amounts in later years are lower than the Senate bill as well. The President’s Proposal raises the percent of income that is an alternative payment amount from 0.5 to 1.0% in 2014, 1.0 to 2.0% in 2015, and 2.0 to 2.5% for 2016 and subsequent years – the same percent of income as in the House bill, which makes the assessment more progressive.


With rates that low why would anyone buy insurance until they needed it? Remember, under this plan you cannot be denied insurance because of a pre-existing conditon, like a broken f----ing leg!

If some of these ideas are so great, why have they not already passed them outside of any health care bill? For example:

Registration and Background Checks of Billing Agencies and Individuals.
In an effort to decrease dishonest billing practices in the Medicare program, the President’s Proposal will assist in reducing the number of individuals and agencies with a history of fraudulent activities participating in Federal health care programs. It ensures that entities that bill for Medicare on behalf of providers are in good standing. It also strengthens the Secretary’s ability to exclude from Medicare individuals who knowingly submit false or fraudulent claims. (Source: H.R. 3970, “Medical Rights & Reform Act” ( Kirk bill))


If it is going to save so much money, what the hell are they waiting for? Pass it now regardless of whatever happens to the health care bill?

The President still does not get it when it comes to the so called "cadillac plans".

Delay and Reform the High-Cost Plan Excise Tax.
Part of the reason for high and rising insurance costs is that insurers have little incentive to lower their premiums. The Senate bill includes a tax on high-cost health insurance plans. CBO has estimated that this policy will reduce premiums as well as contribute to long-run deficit reduction.


As described in a post above, the majority of Americans reject this proposed tax. For some strange reason the President and the leaders of Congress just don't get it.

Finally, some of the more ridiculous parts of the bill remain:

Health Industry Fees
The Act will impose fees on various sectors of the health industry, intended to recapture some of the benefits they get as more Americans purchase health insurance. These include: (i) a fee on branded prescription drug pharmaceutical companies in proportion to their federal sales; (ii) an excise tax on medical devices; (iii) an annual fee on health insurance companies; and (iv) an excise tax on indoor tanning services.


So, no tort reform. No cross border insurance sales, in other word same old same old. I guess the President thinks if he just explains it one more time us dummy citizens will finally get it? He needs to hear it from the citizens since 3 elections have not made it clear to him, SCRAP THIS BILL AND START OVER!!!!!


User currently offlineken777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8188 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3918 times:

Quoting dxing (Reply 7):
I find it interesting that the WH chose today to come out with this when their highly publicized summit with the GOP is not to take place until next weekend.

I'll go with that one first as it's the easiest.

The White House has said that it would post its proposals on the internet 72 hours before the "Summit", and they did.

We should now be seeing the GOP proposals also being posted today - hopefully. (I haven't seen news stories about the Republican's Plan in response to Obama's on the internet yet.)

Quoting dxing (Reply 7):
Which means that you are not interested in bipartisanship so the GOP voting enmasse "no" are only defending their principles of which you just rejected.

I have no problem with bi-partisanship. But I don't support Tort Reform and I only support cross state line selling of health insurance IF the state's minimum insurance standards are met.

Until I see very noticeable drops in costs with tort reform today (like Texas) I'll stick with the assumption that law suits are around 0.5% of health care costs in this country.

On the selling of health care across state lines, I believe that the companies should be required to meet the consumer standards of the state they are selling into, as well as demonstrate that they understand and accept any differences in costs between states. Actual costs in Boston and New York and San Francisco will be higher than in, say, Oklahoma City or Joplin simply because of the differences in the costs of living. Don't believe that a "Joplin Based" insurance company can force their local cost structure on Boston and New York and San Francisco and be successful.

Quoting dxing (Reply 7):
1. A new insurance marketplace.

What about a Medicare type plan, with premiums set at a percentage of income, for those with pre-existing conditions and their families?

That would eliminate the need for private companies to increase your premiums for "rejects" like me. Or do you prefer to pay the increased premiums?

Quoting dxing (Reply 7):
1. Imposing a fine on individuals who do not buy health insurance was the least popular provision only 28 percent and opposed by 62 percent.

Maybe instead of a fine we can have a tax that is used to "provide" insurance for those who do not want it. Let them choose between a private company in a pool, or maybe even Medicaid.

Quoting dxing (Reply 7):
2. Fifty-five percent opposed the so-called Cadillac tax on the most expensive health-insurance plans.

Tax free health care was a no brainer 50 years ago, when almost everyone had job related insurance.

These days the world is different. The bottom of the pyramid has grown dramatically, with jobs like fast food joints that don't offer insurance. And the costs have gone through the roof on the insurance side. I can't blame anyone from wanting free compensation, but believe that $30K up policies should attract taxing as regular income. Even McCain wanted to tax health insurance benefits.


User currently offlineken777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8188 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3911 times:

Quoting dxing (Reply 8):
The CBO said long ago that testing everyone for everything "preventitive care" will not be cost effective

What about automatic testing for "high risk" groups? Maybe the country can even negotiate lower prices for volume testing. WalMart learned years ago that leads to success. But the previous administration made it illegal for the government to negotiate for lower drug prices for programs like Medicare or Medicaid.

Quoting dxing (Reply 8):
Secondly, a "26" year old child? He can't be serious.

Isn't this tied to kids going through school? While a BA or BS may be completed by 26 the advanced degrees, especially for those on a budget, take longer - especially areas like Medicine, Engineering, etc.

Quoting dxing (Reply 8):
With rates that low why would anyone buy insurance until they needed it? Remember, under this plan you cannot be denied insurance because of a pre-existing conditon, like a broken f----ing leg!

So you'd be happy with an income tax that can be applied to insurance premiums - just to ensure everyone pays their share.

Quoting dxing (Reply 8):
If it is going to save so much money, what the hell are they waiting for? Pass it now regardless of whatever happens to the health care bill?

There are already efforts to go after the fraud, with some major successes in the last few months. Spend more money on computer based investigations and monitoring of providers billing and you'll find a lot more fraud. It's going to take lots of computer power, programmers, statisticians and cops. But you will be sending people to prison, making a fine example to others.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19389 posts, RR: 58
Reply 11, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3910 times:

Conservatives will hate it.

Not because there's anything wrong with it (except the lack of tort reform, which can be fixed later) but just because it's Obama's idea.

If Gingrich had come up with the same plan, they'd love it.

Such is the state of the U.S. Nobody cares about running the country anymore. People only care about fighting the "enemy."


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6578 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3911 times:

Quoting dxing (Reply 8):
The CBO said long ago that testing everyone for everything "preventitive care" will not be cost effective and will

Preventative care does NOT mean "testing everyone for everything." The fact that you don't understand this is embarassing.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19389 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3890 times:

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 3):

Blame the GOP Blame the GOP, ignore the fact that the DNC did not need a single GOP vote to get it passed the first time.

No, and I'm really miffed about that. They should have pushed it through. No debate. No listening to the other side.

It's time to be done with "compromise." The GOP isn't interested in compromise. The GOP isn't interested in the USA. The GOP isn't interested in the people. The GOP is interested in getting the DNC out of office. They are SO intent on blocking this, only because it is a DNC proposal, that they actually started spreading lies about how this will lead to death panels and rationing, even though there is ZERO ZIP NO NONE NADA evidence to support those claims. They even went so far as to call it "Communism" and "Socialism" even though 100% of First-World democracies provide universal healthcare to all citizens...with one glaring exception.

No, the GOP is no longer a loyal opposition. They are merely opposition. It would sure be nice if some real Conservatives could take back the Party of No.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7803 posts, RR: 52
Reply 14, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3872 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
and I only support cross state line selling of health insurance IF the state's minimum insurance standards are met.

Well, then again, these republicans have been voted in and reelected, so some Americans must like them...



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinedxing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3867 times:

Quoting ken777 (Reply 9):
We should now be seeing the GOP proposals also being posted today - hopefully. (I haven't seen news stories about the Republican's Plan in response to Obama's on the internet yet.)

The GOP plan has been out for months. It hasn't changed, it hasn't had to be re-written, or re-worded to try and make it more acceptable.

http://www.gop.gov/solutions/healthcare

It's simpe, direct, and actually saves money not to mention not killing a whole forest of trees to print.

Quoting ken777 (Reply 9):
I have no problem with bi-partisanship. But I don't support Tort Reform and I only support cross state line selling of health insurance IF the state's minimum insurance standards are met.

As stated, then you are not interested in any type of GOP participation. You can now drop the party of No stuff since you obviously don't care one way or the other.

Quoting ken777 (Reply 9):
Until I see very noticeable drops in costs with tort reform today (like Texas) I'll stick with the assumption that law suits are around 0.5% of health care costs in this country.

That will never happen until tort reform is passed nation wide. We have discussed this at length. Medical liability insurance is sold nationwide so doctors in Texas pay for jury awards in California and New York. The noticeable difference in Texas is the amount of doctors that have set up shop here, most noticeably in areas that were previously lacking in medical clinics such as the Rio Grande Valley. But continue to ignore that.

Quoting ken777 (Reply 9):
On the selling of health care across state lines, I believe that the companies should be required to meet the consumer standards of the state they are selling into, as well as demonstrate that they understand and accept any differences in costs between states.

Why. The plan the President is putting forth clearly states that in a few years there will be one standard, the federal governments. Also, if you are increasing the pool costs automatically go down. Home insurance does not differentiate between the costs of living in Oklahoma versus California except in the premium price. Again, you are shooting for something for nothing.

Quoting ken777 (Reply 9):
What about a Medicare type plan, with premiums set at a percentage of income, for those with pre-existing conditions and their families?

That would eliminate the need for private companies to increase your premiums for "rejects" like me. Or do you prefer to pay the increased premiums?

Why would you need that if the law will say that insurance companies must insure you? Again, you are looking for something for nothing for members of your family with no financial or any other type of responsibility on their part. So the short answer is no. If you have increased risk you should have to pay an increased premium. That is the way it is done with every other type of insurance in the world. Bad driver? You pay more. Live in an earthquake zone? Try buying cheap earthquake insurance. New pilot? Try getting cheap insurance for your aircraft.

Quoting ken777 (Reply 9):
Maybe instead of a fine we can have a tax that is used to "provide" insurance for those who do not want it. Let them choose between a private company in a pool, or maybe even Medicaid.

No, it is still a mandatory "tax" in lieu of a mandatory "purchase" to keep out of jail.

Quoting ken777 (Reply 9):
Tax free health care was a no brainer 50 years ago, when almost everyone had job related insurance.

These days the world is different.

Health care is a benefit. It should remain a benefit to attract the best workers. Your approach is just a give away to the laziest of the bunch.

Quoting ken777 (Reply 10):
What about automatic testing for "high risk" groups?

If they are proven high risk then they should be tested. But that is not what the President or the legislation says.

Quoting ken777 (Reply 10):
But the previous administration made it illegal for the government to negotiate for lower drug prices for programs like Medicare or Medicaid.

OK, are we going to live in 2008 or are we going to deal with the issues of today? But then like most liberals today you are a suscriber to the school of "two wrongs make a right".

Quoting ken777 (Reply 10):
Isn't this tied to kids going through school?

A dependent child? 26? I have a daughter in college right now who is 21 and living at home. I can't claim her. She will be dropped from my insurance this year. I lose the child deduction on federal taxes on my younger daughter next year when she turns 17. You are legally considered an adult when you turn 18. If your parents decide to let you live rent free under their roof that is their business. Not the governments, not mine.

Quoting ken777 (Reply 10):
So you'd be happy with an income tax that can be applied to insurance premiums - just to ensure everyone pays their share.

No. You cannot selectively tax one group over another simply because they do not wish to purchase something.

Quoting ken777 (Reply 10):
There are already efforts to go after the fraud, with some major successes in the last few months.

Given your record for embellishment and overstating the facts, lets see some proof. That being said, it still does not explain why they have to wait on a health care bill to pass this. It could have been done a year ago.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
(except the lack of tort reform, which can be fixed later)

Sorry, I'm not buying that. If they had no problem with tort reform (and they do since the trial lawyers own them) they would have gotten behind a bipartisan bill on this years ago.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
but just because it's Obama's idea.

No, they oppose it because it contains language that is not only unconstitutional but increases the "entitlement" mentality in this country. That doesn't even begin to address cost.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
If Gingrich had come up with the same plan, they'd love it.

The GOP has had parts of this plan as theirs for years. The democratic party was not in charge and as such, would threaten fillibuster if the GOP talked about bringing up a bill which included pre-existing conditions, as well as tort reform and increased competition without including a single payer system. Charlie Rangel has introduced a single payer system bill in Congress every year for more than a decade. He wasn't going to sign on to tort reform since single payer, government run, would eliminate the need.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 12):
Preventative care does NOT mean "testing everyone for everything." The fact that you don't understand this is embarassing.

The fact that you didn't read the plan is even more embarassing.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/health-care-meeting/proposal/titlei

It keeps insurance companies honest by setting clear rules that rein in the worst insurance industry abuses. And it bans all insurance companies from denying insurance coverage because of a person’s pre-existing medical conditions while giving consumers new power to appeal insurance company decisions that deny doctor ordered treatments covered by insurance.


◦New plans will have to offer preventive care and immunizations at no cost;


Those are direct reflections to both the House and Senate versions of their respective health care bills that require the Presidents requirement from his health care speech before the joint session of Congress requiring preventive testing for free.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/09/....health.care.transcript/index.html

And insurance companies will be required to cover, with no extra charge, routine checkups and preventive care, like mammograms and colonoscopies.

Because there's no reason we shouldn't be catching diseases like breast cancer and colon cancer before they get worse.


User currently offlinecws818 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1176 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3858 times:

Quoting dxing (Reply 7):
I find it interesting that the WH chose today to come out with this when their highly publicized summit with the GOP is not to take place until next weekend. If the President and democratic party leaders have made up their minds that this is what they want, what point in the summit?

Perhaps so there can be specific bases for discussion? Isn't the summit on Thursday 2/25?

Quoting dxing (Reply 15):
But then like most liberals today you are a suscriber to the school of "two wrongs make a right".

Nobody has subscribed to that supposed "school."



volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3848 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
No, and I'm really miffed about that. They should have pushed it through. No debate. No listening to the other side.

Well this is because you are much like Nancy Pelosi and don't like to listen to anyone about their view. It's me me me. Well this is not how this country was built and this attitude is why you will lose a ton of seats and control of congress.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
The GOP isn't interested in the USA
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
The GOP isn't interested in the people.

So much for not having the MSNBC talking points taking over this thread.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
The GOP is interested in getting the DNC out of office

You got that backwards it was you that wanted the GOP out and said anything to get Obama elected. Well a year later and that has caught up to you. Badly.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
No, the GOP is no longer a loyal opposition. They are merely opposition. It would sure be nice if some real Conservatives could take back the Party of No.

LOL, man your going to hold on to that lame sound byte right to the bitter end aren't you? Well it's time if some real Democrats could have the courage to tell Pelosi to take a flying leap. Hell I wouldn't even mind Bubba coming back and being president. Would be far better than what we have now. At least he could keep his congress in check. Hell I will even find him some chubbies so he can not have sex with them.


User currently offlinecws818 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1176 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3845 times:

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 17):

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
The GOP isn't interested in the USA
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
The GOP isn't interested in the people.

So much for not having the MSNBC talking points taking over this thread.

Why do you conclude that his opinions - obviously different from yours - are from MSNBC? You do seem obsessed with MSNBC, for whatever reason.



volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5231 posts, RR: 25
Reply 19, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3841 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
Conservatives will hate it.

Not because there's anything wrong with it (except the lack of tort reform, which can be fixed later) but just because it's Obama's idea.

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner!

Quoting cws818 (Reply 4):
Arrogance and ignorance are also found on the right.

Come now, how could ever make such a ridiculous assertion?  
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
It's time to be done with "compromise." The GOP isn't interested in compromise. The GOP isn't interested in the USA. The GOP isn't interested in the people. The GOP is interested in getting the DNC out of office.

  

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 17):
Well this is because you are much like Nancy Pelosi and don't like to listen to anyone about their view. It's me me me. Well this is not how this country was built and this attitude is why you will lose a ton of seats and control of congress.

Pot meet kettle.
Hi kettle, you're black.
Hey pot, so are you.

Quoting cws818 (Reply 18):
Why do you conclude that his opinions - obviously different from yours - are from MSNBC? You do seem obsessed with MSNBC, for whatever reason.

I second that. What is this bizarre obsession with MSNBC. From what I've gathered in reading this board, you're the only one who actually watches the network, yet you've convinced yourself that everyone on the right is getting their ideas from them. Weird! Do you have a secret crush on Rachel Maddow? Keith Olbermann?



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineFr8Mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3840 times:

Quoting alberchico (Reply 1):
Why ? You know that no matter how good the proposal is they will hate it anyway since its not coming from a Republican presiden.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
Not because there's anything wrong with it (except the lack of tort reform, which can be fixed later) but just because it's Obama's idea.

No, this reform, like the others will be opposed because it is an expansion of government into every facet of American life. This expansion should be anethema to Americans who believe in the free market and who believe in freedom of choice and liberty. That is why this 'reform' should be opposed.

Let's get to the meat: funding this thing.

Under current law, workers who earn a salary pay a flat tax of 1.45 percent of their wages to support the Medicare Hospital Insurance (HI) trust fund, but those who have substantial unearned income do not, raising issues of fairness. The Act will include an additional 0.9 percentage point Hospital Insurance tax for households with incomes exceeding $200,000 for singles and $250,000 for married couples filing jointly. In addition, it would add a 2.9 percent tax for such high-income households to unearned income including interest, dividends, annuities, royalties and rents (excluding income from active participation in S corporations.

(Can anyone say tax increase?)

Beginning in 2018, the Act imposes an excise tax on insurance companies to help finance the tax credits and other portions of comprehensive health reform.

(Well, that's politically brave. 2018?)

The Act will impose fees on various sectors of the health industry, intended to recapture some of the benefits they get as more Americans purchase health insurance. These include: (i) a fee on branded prescription drug pharmaceutical companies in proportion to their federal sales; (ii) an excise tax on medical devices; (iii) an annual fee on health insurance companies; and (iv) an excise tax on indoor tanning services.

So, now we're calling taxes, fees. Prices will go up. And since when is a indoor tanning joint part of the health care industry?

The Act will impose an additional 10 percent penalty on non-health withdrawals from HSAs and Archer MSAs; limit Flexible Spending Accounts under cafeteria plans to $2,500; eliminate, starting in 2012, the deduction for employer subsidies for retiree drug coverage under Part D; raise the floor on the itemized deduction for major medical expenses to 10 percent of AGI for the non-elderly and non-disabled; and limit excessive compensation paid by certain health insurance companies.

No problem with the first clause. But, why limit FSA's? Raising the floor from 2% to 10% for taking a medical deduction. Limit excessive (someone define that for me, please) compensation to certain insurance companies?

This will be another 2000+ page POS that takes from the American people. It is a wealth redistribution scheme.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineIMissPiedmont From United States of America, joined May 2001, 6278 posts, RR: 34
Reply 21, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3836 times:

I have the feeling that this will just end up a repeat of the last time. I might support something if it really helped the average person.   


Quit calling an airport ramp "Tarmac" and a taxiway "runway".
User currently offlineFr8Mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3828 times:

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 21):
I have the feeling that this will just end up a repeat of the last time. I might support something if it really helped the average person.

I agree. This is the same POS repackaged with Obama's seal of approval.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
No, and I'm really miffed about that. They should have pushed it through. No debate. No listening to the other side.

That's a boy. Just push it through. You do realize that these politicians don't want to commit political suicide. To push Obama/Pelosi/Reid care through, with the grass roots resistance out there, would have assured tough, almost impossible elections.

I have no issue with the GOP being the 'party of no' in this case. The gang of 3 is trying to fundamnetally change the way Americans live. We ned to say NO to that. I hope they keep saying no until a bill is presented that is palatable to the majority of Americans.

I hate to sound like a broken record of GOP and Conservative talking points, but talking points appear to be the only thing the Left understands.

Tort Reform
Eliminate insurance mandates
Allow selling across state lines
Eliminate Medicare/Medicad fraud

Hey, and just for giggles: drill here, drill now.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3824 times:

Quoting OA412 (Reply 19):
Why do you conclude that his opinions - obviously different from yours - are from MSNBC? You do seem obsessed with MSNBC, for whatever reason.

Well when he begins to give an opinion and not something like republicans don't care about people or America I will listen. This is just hate speech and designed to scare people into believing the GOP are the reason the DNC is failing. Which we have clearly seen not be the case. No matter how much you blurt out your baseless soubd bytes.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 19):
Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner

Why did the Dems that wouldn't vote for it hate it?

Quoting OA412 (Reply 19):
Pot meet kettle.
Hi kettle, you're black.
Hey pot, so are you.

Can you ever post anything here besides the same cliches and useless talking points?

Quoting OA412 (Reply 19):
I second that. What is this bizarre obsession with MSNBC. From what I've gathered in reading this board, you're the only one who actually watches the network, yet you've convinced yourself that everyone on the right is getting their ideas from them. Weird! Do you have a secret crush on Rachel Maddow? Keith Olbermann?

Yet a lot of the things the left here say sound exactly the same as Ed Schultz and Rachel Maddow. Must be my imagination.


User currently offlinedxing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3806 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
The GOP isn't interested in compromise. The GOP isn't interested in the USA. The GOP isn't interested in the people.

The exact same thing could be said about the democratic party. They aren't anymore interested in compromise now than they were when they were in the minority and threatened filibuster whenever the GOP talked about tort and other reforms. It was single payer or nothing back then. The democratic party has demonstrated, and the people have seen, over the past year that the democratic party is simply not concerned about the USA and its financial situation. They have seen that the democratic party has no second thoughts on bankrupting us to simply get their way. The democratic party has demonstrated over the past few months that they aren't interested in what the people want as they are set to ram this thing through on reconciliation if that's what it requires. Poll after poll has shown that the people don't want this gargantuan bill which nobody can explain or define. They don't want government take over of their health care and are perfectly happy working out a solution for the minority that don't have health care. Of course when the GOP thought about doing that (reconciliation) with SS reform a few years back they were just evil, evil, evil.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
The GOP is interested in getting the DNC out of office.

As is the DNC in keeping the GOP in the minority. That's called politics and goes much farther back than this debate.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
They are SO intent on blocking this, only because it is a DNC proposal, that they actually started spreading lies about how this will lead to death panels and rationing, even though there is ZERO ZIP NO NONE NADA evidence to support those claims.

No more so than the President has continually, and continues to say, said the GOP has no ideas, when he was handed their proposal a little less than a month ago, proposals that date back several years. No more so than the President who continues to say that if you like your insurance you will get to keep it, even though that is a bald face lie as defined by his own legislative iniative out today!!

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
No, the GOP is no longer a loyal opposition. They are merely opposition. It would sure be nice if some real Conservatives could take back the Party of No.

It would be nice if the President would take back his party from the far left but since he suscribes to their beliefs, that's not likely to happen. I wonder, one forum member is fond of posting the number of threatened and actual filibusters the GOP has had during the past two Congresses, yet when you look back the number rose sharply right after the democratic party went into the minoroity. Just how many is too many? When does a party go from loyal as you put it to just plain old opposition? When is a party or group of people supposed to just throw out their belief system and roll over? Be careful how you answer.

Quoting cws818 (Reply 16):
Perhaps so there can be specific bases for discussion? Isn't the summit on Thursday 2/25?

Since he has already ruled out starting over and claims that any negotiation will have to be based on the two plans as they stand, what is the point? The GOP has already stated, as have several extremely liberal members of Congress, that they won't support the Senate bill.

Quoting cws818 (Reply 16):
Nobody has subscribed to that supposed "school."

Please. Whenver someone posts "But George Bush and the GOP spent..." to defend the spending this administration is doing, that is exactly the school of thought they are in.


25 cws818 : It's not hate speech. It's his opinion. You just happen to disagree and dislike it. MSNBC has nothing to do with it. Such spending then was for diffe
26 dxing : Doesn't make any difference what it was spent on. If you don't have the money to spend, simply saying, "well they did it too" is suscribing to the "t
27 DocLightning : There you go. Universal healthcare is *NOT*, I repeat *NOT* a "far-left" idea. I am going to ask you a question and I want you to answer it: Which of
28 Post contains images ken777 : What I don't ignore is that Texas is a fairly big state and easily has a population large enough to establish its own risk pool. Are you saying that
29 Post contains images OA412 : You quoted the wrong person there? But enough about you... Yet we keep telling you that we listen to neither, so yeah I would say it's your imaginati
30 Post contains links and images WarRI1 : http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...=DEFAULT&CTIME=2010-02-22-12-38-05 I guess this means we do not need healthcare reform , just a slight adju
31 Fr8Mech : No, but my wife and I reach the 250K threshold. My wife and I work rather hard for ever penny we make. We don't work off the backs of anyone else. An
32 ken777 : I'll support filibusters that were made for the health insurance companies and for the health insurance companies. At least until I see major cuts in
33 LAXintl : Wacky stuff. I thought we were supposed to have a "summit" on Thursday to have a sharing of ideas. Instead we get more leftist propaganda thrown out o
34 OA412 : Which is worse than insurance companies getting between you and your doctor how? Being a bit over dramatic aren't we?
35 WarRI1 : And? How about the guy digging a ditch, getting nowhere near your income, how about the factory worker?, how about the trucker?, how about the nursin
36 LAXintl : As I have said here before, I fully fund my own insurance cost, and am quite happy with what I get for my money. I get access when I want and to what
37 Dreadnought : Are you saying they are slaves? They are paid for their work. I don't know what Fr8Mech does for a living, but from his income I presume that he did
38 OA412 : And what happens when the insurance company decides they won't pay for a procedure that you need? Or when your provider decides that they will no lon
39 WarRI1 : Oh yes! That is what drives you folks is it not, not for the good of humanity, not for the dis-advantaged, not for the good of the economy, not for f
40 Dreadnought : Think what you like, but we believe that humanity, the economy, and yes, the disadvantaged will be better served by getting off the Opium of massive
41 Post contains images OA412 : The idea that the Right will be the savior of humanity and the disadvantaged is unbelievably laughable.
42 Post contains images WarRI1 : Let us see, in the old days, the real slaves were paid were they not? They were clothed, and fed and housed, that could be construed as compensation
43 Dreadnought : Oh.... My.... God.
44 LAXintl : Sorry for the late response on this one. Forgot in my previous post. Well when I lived in Sweden it was under the long serving prime minister of Olof
45 cws818 : The White House proposal constitutes a sharing of ideas. What you call propaganda is a set of ideas that are supposedly going to be discussed on Thur
46 WarRI1 : A mighty joke there, dam laughable. Read history before this mighty government give away, see the happy faces, see the educated childen working in th
47 Fr8Mech : You need to put together a coherent post. Slow down, put down the Little Red Book, and think about what you're trying to say. Let me tell you about m
48 Post contains images WarRI1 : I do not like to be a hypocrite. Sincerity is more my style.
49 LAXintl : I'll take my chances. Dont need a nanny state in the mix also. And so many don’t, including my own family members that have traveled around shoppin
50 ken777 : Sometimes the need for medical care is far greater than another meal. Sometimes without medical care they won't live long enough to have another meal
51 Post contains images Dreadnought : Well for my part I prefer an honest simpleton to a deceitful genius, so I forgive you
52 WarRI1 : Those words and wishs, I have no argument with. Unfortunatly, we cannot all have them. Minimum wage earners and lower wage earners need an agent. OUR
53 Post contains images WarRI1 : I am sorry if my deceitful traits overode my honest ones. It is quite common really.
54 LAXintl : It comes down to a simply philosophical difference. I don’t believe it’s the governments job to walk behind every American and catch them if they
55 WarRI1 : Ho-Hum, we all know the Right always uses morality in their preachings of what is good for everyone, most importantly themselves. I tend to use the w
56 Post contains links and images dxing : In this country it is. All of those countries, save Singapore which I have identified as a possible model for our health care, are left of where our
57 WarRI1 : Once again, all in ones perspective, philosophy. I question the debate methods employed in the debate, many forces at work here, many not noble in na
58 Flighty : Maybe Republicans would support health care if it included a new part: an illegal war! Then they would be falling over themselves, lapping it up.
59 Fr8Mech : But without food, I can assure you medical care won't be necessary. No, our government is not that agent. Our government, or more correctly our way o
60 WarRI1 : This is certainly not Utopia, false or otherwise, but it has been close, now fading away from corruption, self interest, greed from ALL sides. Read a
61 Post contains links dxing : Of which none exist. So making that even worse and adding 2X the debt in one year as was added in 8 makes sense. Gotta love that two wrongs make a ri
62 cws818 : They are the White House's ideas. The GOPs and Congressional Democrats will surely bring their own, as well. Thats the point of the meeting - to shar
63 ken777 : And they are watching out for the money side more than the patient side. We have one, people call him "Dr. No". You my be able to get coverage, but i
64 Post contains images EA CO AS : Compared to the United States of America, ALL of them are. And that's the point - we're not interested in dabbling in this particular idea as it resu
65 dxing : I think you have that exactly backward. They are not the WH ideas. They are ideas combined from the two bills that have passed in Congress that they
66 SpeedyGonzales : Well, pretty much every European conservative party would be considered communist by Limbaugh's standards. FWIW, I've voted for the conservatives eve
67 NorthstarBoy : Overall, the GOP plan seems to make sense, with two exceptions: "Allowing Americans to buy insurance across state lines. The GOP plan allows Americans
68 Dreadnought : I just want to point out that while Switzerland has universal health care, the government manages NONE of it. It's 100% private. I prefer that system
69 Post contains links dxing : That might have been true 20 years ago but with the internet available today, I don't think it qualifies as much of a problem. Even if you had to do
70 Post contains images Fr8Mech : What prevents a non-wealthy person to make the same choices? There's this thing called the internet, I'm sure you've heard of it. Let's break this do
71 seb146 : What about the people that go in every six months for routine check-ups and pay that completely out of pocked because they can not afford to pay $500
72 LAXintl : Each insurer would want to grow its client pool and compete vigorously for clients. Look at other insurance such as life, and property which in many
73 Post contains links dxing : Yes and there is a basic difference in the two plans. The democratic plan just says that insurance companies will accept any and all, while spreading
74 Fr8Mech : Find that in the Constitution. Because, absent of government interference (i.e. mandates, barriers to entry, etc.) the market will correct itself. So
75 CaliAtenza : Can you? BTW, i forsee this thread getting locked as usual, due to politics rearing its ugly head again. Seriously NIK, let the Adults talk...i may n
76 ken777 : Less than, say, DocLightening. But somehow they seem to be able to be close in a lot of areas, Here is where you need to put on your thinking cap. If
77 Post contains images MoltenRock : Absolutely. Just cram it down their throats. Better yet, just expand Medicare for everyone under reconciliation if they give Democrats any grief. If
78 EA CO AS : I translate this into you having a problem with people who make more money than you. Being able to benefit from lower premiums wouldn't only benefit
79 MoltenRock : Oh, please. As if the 8 years of Bush were anything but "STFU" and stay out of our way for Republicans. Republicans do not want to do anything about
80 Arrow : That's a little disingenuous. Health insurance is mandatory for all Swiss residents. And the "private" insurers are required by law to offer basic co
81 Post contains links MoltenRock : But here are the undeniable facts about Repugs whining about wanting "bipartisanship": Here's an Excel file of the amendments: http://img.slate.com/me
82 ken777 : That has got to be one of the funniest things I've read in a long time. Imagine a Purist Conservative Leader going for free government provided healt
83 LAXintl : Well if that is the attitude Democrats hold from the git-go, they certainly wont achieve much or see support from across the aisle. Many view its sim
84 EA CO AS : And with that mentality, you'll see why in 2010 and 2012, the general populace will feel they cannot vote for Democrats.
85 Dreadnought : No it isn't. It's all private. I have nothing against individual mandates - I have advocated them for years. The key to what the Swiss have done as t
86 MoltenRock : When has that mattered? When Dick Cheney was asked about the war Iraq and 70% of Americans were opposed to it due to their bungling then, he replied,
87 AGM100 : Well then let the D's get it on. Vote and send it to the President for signature ..... whats the issue? I mean haveing one or two GOP rubber stamps i
88 Post contains links dxing : Unfortunately this is also the place where you put your spending smock on. The problem is you don't care whose money your spending because it isn't y
89 LAXintl : You are assuming the citizenry wants something done. What is it, over 60% of people are happy with the health care they have today. In a haste instea
90 Post contains links cws818 : Well, if you read the White House document, at least far as the middle of the first page, you would see that it clearly states: "The President’s Pr
91 dxing : I did read that article and what the WH is doing is rewording the provisions so they remain in line with the Senate passed bill yet accomodate more o
92 ken777 : All that would do is make a fortune for the ad agencies. Health insurance companies would drop a billion or two without blinking - mainly because the
93 MoltenRock : Tell that to your Repugs who have abused the filibuster procedure to stop anything from coming up for a vote. If it fails on an up or down vote than
94 dxing : And that is already avialable through HSA's but the democratic bill does away with them because big government can't control the money and that is wh
95 CaliAtenza : This poll always confuses me. The only people who would say they were happy with their health care are those who can afford it and those whose plans
96 Flighty : Also, most of those people never use their health care beyond routine check-ups. So, they are happy with something they know little about, and they h
97 cws818 : So the White House releases new ideas for health care reform, but you see through the verbiage and know better?
98 Post contains links and images MoltenRock : Of course he doesn't. It really is laughable how poor the Texas healthcare system is, when they have nearly 1/3 of their people without insurance. Bu
99 Post contains links and images dxing : Probably confused you because you misread the actual number of people that are happy with their health care coverage. It's more like 70%-80%. http://
100 seb146 : Does that include the off-budget spending for Iraq and Afghanistan? No, not for anyone. My cousin has a very sick daughter. She has been day-to-day e
101 LAXintl : Air travel is voluntary. You subject yourself to whatever regulations willingly, and no one is forced to board a plane. But purchasing health-insuran
102 Fr8Mech : It isn't constitutional. I asked the question back in reply 74: And no one took up the challenge, because any challenge to that question would be wea
103 Post contains links dxing : Sure, go ahead and include that. But don't forget to include the debt payoff to get the SS and medicare budgets free of general budget IOU's. When sh
104 Post contains links seb146 : http://www.whitehouse.gov/health-care-meeting/proposal/titlei In the President's proposal, under the section "New Affordable Choices" is this: ◦Amer
105 Fr8Mech : Regardless of who set up the rule or why, you're under no obligation to fly. Private and public entities routinely perform searches beyond the protec
106 AGM100 : Since they are counting on that fact alone to pay for a good majority of the planned expence ...why dont they just do a bill to clean up the issue no
107 dxing : I never said that it wasn't in the democratic plan. It has been said many times here that the GOP doesn't have a plan and doesn't care about people w
108 Post contains images ken777 : Acturaly Senator Brown of MA voted to stop the jobs bill filibuster. I guess he's running for re-election,starting now. Citizens have been"forced" to
109 dxing : Actually, up until Browns election the democratic party had a 60 vote majority in the Senate. If they couldn't get anything passed they have only the
110 ken777 : Not true - there were independents that were needed to get the 60. Looks like Brown is moving towards that independent position. Good idea if he want
111 Fr8Mech : Nope, that's why Bubba should pay for his own healthcare (coverage) and leave you and me out of it. He wants to make unhealthy choices, he should hav
112 ken777 : Maybe, but Bubba is eating too much to have money left over for health insurance. He goes to the ER and your premiums keep going up. Gonna pay for hi
113 Post contains images Flighty : The public health implications of fast food are very much like cigarettes. They both make people happy, but they both lead very directly to health pr
114 dxing : Both independents are part of the democratic caucus. The could but they won't. Congressman Stupak said late today there are at least 15 more votes ag
115 Fr8Mech : Really a different topic, but I don't believe we should use tax policy as a social engineering tool. But, that's a different thread. No. Because the
116 seb146 : How many times, exactly, has the right wing tried to pass any kind of health care reform? When they passed Part-D on behalf of the drug companies? Th
117 dxing : For years. I have repeatedly posted links to previous State of the Union speeches where President Bush asked for legislation only to be stopped by th
118 seb146 : But, using terror, terrorism and Sept. 11 and fear as a central theme to the SOTU and all speeches? That did not happen as much as it did under Bush.
119 dxing : As many a liberal here has said "My God! The man has only been in office a year, give him a chance!!!". That works both ways. The only time the democ
120 ken777 : And how many Republican amendments were accepted in full or in part. The issue is what have the Republicans put up that didn't look like it was writt
121 Post contains links WarRI1 : http://www.projo.com/opinion/editori...RA_02-26-10_C9HJDRV_v5.b2c34f.html
122 WarRI1 : I hit the wrong button, I meant to comment on this Editorial in the Providence Journal and its support for moving the bill forward by Reconciliation.
123 MoltenRock : But you already pay for it. Obese, smoker, BillyBob Bubba living in a red state, making $15 an hour can barely afford the trailer payment much less h
124 Post contains images ken777 : The Senate already has a Health Reform Bill. It was passed Christmas Eve. What needs to be done is some simple cleaning up and Reconciliation can han
125 WarRI1 : Yes it can, let us get it done. I read somewhere the opinion that in the US, we do not have a healthcare system, we have a corporate profit system wh
126 MoltenRock : I saw a statistic that was pretty telling. The top 5 healthcare insurance companies in the USA made record profits in 2009, and one of the few industr
127 Post contains links Dreadnought : Your "facts" are meaningless without actual numbers. If the heal industry made a grand total of $1 profit last year, and this year made $1.56, you wo
128 Post contains images MoltenRock : Riiiiiight. Not quite $ 1.56 in profits but rather a $12.2 billion profit reported, an increase of $4.4 billion, or 56 percent, from 2008. Google. 'Ti
129 Dreadnought : [quote=MoltenRock,reply=128]Not quite $ 1.56 in profits but rather a $12.2 billion profit reported, an increase of $4.4 billion, or 56 percent, from 2
130 MoltenRock : Oh dear, more cognitive dissonance I see. Care to share with the rest of the class the net cash flow gain for those companies? Also, care to share th
131 Ken777 : 3.3% isn't that bad when you consider it is after the annual bonuses are paid out. And, in terms of size WalMart is fairly large. They could live wit
132 arrow : This gets to the heart of why your system is so expensive -- a collection of agencies (insurers, hospitals, etc) all needing to make a profit under t
133 Dreadnought : Don't forget who makes the most profit out of health care - the government. They tax health care at every level, income taxes on all the people invol
134 okie : That is the part I do not understand How does the Federal Government take control of State control over insurance? How does the Federal Government ta
135 Post contains images Ken777 : Or eliminate unnecessary middlemen? So if we combine that with Senator Coburn's 33% cut from eliminating fraud & waste (which he said could be do
136 okie : That is interesting, you have something simular to the DMV or post office as the gate keeper to see a doctor. Thanks for your take on the questions a
137 Dreadnought : If you are talking about insurance companies, they do provide a critical function - absorbing and spreading risk. If the fraud could be eliminated "t
138 Post contains links and images MoltenRock : Um.... a yearly net profit after depreciation, taxes, etc of 3.3% is not the same as ROI. See below: WELLPOINT HEALTH: UNITED HEALTH CARE:
139 Post contains images Ken777 : The Senator I was mentioning (Dr. Tom Coburn) is actually one of the most conservative Senators in DC these days. They call him Dr. No. He was also o
140 Dreadnought : I don't care who it was - if Waste and Fraud on such a scale is so easily identifiable, then thousands and thousands of HHS staff should be on their
141 Ken777 : Wellpoint happens to be the company that is tossing a 39% increase in premiums to California. Don't tell me they are not making money. In terms of RO
142 AGM100 : A joke right ? The President DOES understand the end game which is of course total control by the Fed and keeping the charade that the Dems care for
143 Ken777 : The ace cards that the Dems have will be clear reminders of the wonderful conditions this country was left in after 8 years of Republicans being in c
144 AGM100 : Right ... not a chance ... since the Dems did just what the republicans did except they quadrupled the effort. Really ... what have the dems done any
145 Ken777 : They stopped the Conservative's slide into a depression - but we still were left with their Great Recession. And the crisis in the financial sector,
146 AGM100 : I dont think we have seen anything yet .... but if you want to beleive that the Dems saved us in any way shape or form then so be it. They stopped no
147 DeltaMD90 : Ha come on man, still waiting to see all that oil.
148 fr8mech : Nope, it will be the final stroke for this congress. It will guarantee a super-majority in The House and a return to parity in The Senate. It will al
149 AGM100 : Once a entitlement program is in ..it only does one thing ... grows grows grows .
150 WarRI1 : I am all for it, it is about time they show some gumption, like the Republicans did all 16 times they used the option for the good of the country. An
151 Okie : Nuke option only covers budgetary items so that leaves about 30 million of the 40 million uninsured out of Obamacare and the 30 million will have to p
152 WarRI1 : Anything can be modified and improved, except the policy of NO! Nothing started, nothing improved, nothing made better for our fellow Americans such
153 Post contains images Ken777 : Only after far too many years of failures, KIAs and WIAs. And after Obama made it acceptable to set a date to leave. Sure I want a bill passed. Nuke
154 Okie : That is exactly my point, they will not be covered with the nuke option period that is not budgetary. Wake up Okie
155 Ken777 : Wake up? In the US a scum arrested because they committed a horrid crime is immediately entitled to a lawyer that taxpayers will pay for if the scum
156 WarRI1 : But, will we not have a healthbill to start the process? There will be no Republican votes. The Republicans are betting on the backlash, so the polic
157 fr8mech : Maybe I'm just a little rosie-eyed on this, but solid majorities in 2013 and the Whitehouse;this gets repealed, if it does get passed. Of course, tha
158 Okie : You forgot "Free". I am as tired as anybody paying those high monthly premiums. I am ready for free health insurance. Some might not conclude the dec
159 Post contains images WarRI1 : Amen Brother, aren't we all? I get mine free, and consider myself blessed. I wish the same for all. We all tend to be decent people, even folks calle
160 WarRI1 : Sounds like Wall Street and banking to me. What is the difference, they are entitled, why not us? We have funneled them billions and billions at our
161 Ken777 : Are you talking about health insurance companies? Wellpoint is getting a 39% increase in California - gonna be a lot of loss of wealth and savings th
162 fr8mech : Are you planning on not paying any taxes? Nothing, absolutely nothing the government does for you (or to you) is free. We all pay for it. Whether it'
163 Post contains links and images MoltenRock : It's spelled "sleeve". And nothing in this bill will pay for illegal immigrants. To assert such is a bald-faced lie. So not only do illegal immigrant
164 fr8mech : I won't take that bait, but let's visit this in 8 months. You do realize that that number is artificially inflated by the various policies that Obama
165 Post contains images CaliAtenza : Uh...illegals cant vote... . So i dont understand your line of reasoning there. I see a bunch of classic republican/right wing talking points in your
166 Post contains links AGM100 : No its not ...and yes they will. Next No its not a lie ..and yes they will cover them. Show me one Democrat who is going to turn away illegal aliens
167 Post contains images Ken777 : You should consider yourself blessed to be able to afford to pay for health insurance. Wealth expansion for the conservatives is only for the wealthy
168 CaliAtenza : uh, BTW....care for illegal aliens, homeless people etc, isnt a Republican or Democrat issue; its a tax payer issue. By law, any ER cannot turn away
169 Ken777 : Now you see why my preference is similar to the Australia model where a small tax on all income (personal & business) would pay for core care, wi
170 AGM100 : I intended to say " They do it now".... that is the point ... no matter what this bill say's .. everyone will be covered as long as they are here. Yo
171 fr8mech : And there are a bunch of classicDemocratic/left wing talking points in this thread. Your point being? Yes, Americans want reform. We want to reform t
172 arrow : The revisionist history that comes from the right is breathtaking. The US would still be in a recession regardless of who is in the White House becau
173 fr8mech : Actually, my point is, that without the various 'stimulus plans' the economy would have rebounded on its own and we woulldn't have these false starts
174 Okie : I thought the funding was being held up because of President Obama'a "Pay-Go" there was no funding source. Okie
175 arrow : And my point is you're dreaming if you think you'd be out of recession without the stimulus plan. That pile of money (all borrowed unfortunately) bai
176 WarRI1 : [quote=MoltenRock,reply=163]The thing is the American electorate is dumb as a post. They love their social programs as they should, and once they're p
177 Post contains images Ken777 : Sure. And consumers get the massive cost reductions that consumers in Texas are enjoying? Might check on that before pushing tort reform too much. Un
178 AGM100 : Wow ! You are playing by the progressive play book to the nines .... this is exactly what the radical left wing claims is required. They claim the co
179 Ken777 : You need to remember that anyone who is a millimeter to the left of the hard core right is a radical left wing socialist. You also forgot that a lot
180 Post contains images AGM100 : Why dont you read his book and get some insight to how he see's the constitution?. No use argueing about it I guess ... I assume you agree with every
181 Ken777 : That's a major assumption, but understandable from a die hard Conservative. I don't agree with either far end of the spectrum 100% of the time. I don
182 fr8mech : Then amend the Constitution to allow the government to coerce the populace to purchase something or suffer criminal penalties. No, those who wish to
183 Ken777 : Or simply call it a tax that can be avoided by having insurance? A rose by any other name. Or get some hot shots to get it declared "illegal" and hav
184 fr8mech : I never said he was a bad teacher or that he didn't know the Constitution. I did imply that he does not like the Constituition as it is written. If h
185 Ken777 : Same as tax dollars due to support the Department of Defense. A tax is a tax. Tax evasion is Tax evasion. I used to be most supportive of them. Then
186 WarRI1 : I think the President said today that the American people deserve a vote, one way or the other. I agree, vote on it. Let the chips fall where they ma
187 Ken777 : Hopefully the House will soon vote on the Senate bill. As of now the House has passed their bill by a majority and the Senate passed their's by a Supe
188 Dreadnought : I agree with that sentiment. But the rules must be followed. The 1995 Balanced Budget Act was passed in reconciliation. The final vote was 52 to 47.
189 Post contains images AirStairs : And the government goes to great lengths (as it should) to minimize the burdens it places on citizens required to meet those obligations. Filing is f
190 AirStairs : I did explain this in my previous post but it is ridiculously long so I will expand upon it here for clarity: reconciliation was designed as a narrow
191 Post contains links MoltenRock : You do realize that is a Republican amendment to the bill right? For years Grassley and other Republicans campaigned for mandates. Now they are again
192 AGM100 : Amazing ..reaching back 200 years ?? So let Obama push for a ammendment to force me to pay for your healthcare and your gas , and your groceries ...
193 Post contains links and images MoltenRock : Link? Why would you listen to anyone telling you what the rule states? Why don't you read it for yourself? http://www.rules.house.gov/archives/byrd_r
194 Post contains images CaliAtenza : So i guess the latest issue of Newsweek was right...its not government thats broken, but the American people. We have become too partisan for our own
195 CaliAtenza : Again, please show me the line in the bill that says: "ILLEGAL ALIENS WILL BE COVERED"? The only way they get treatment is in an ER or if they cough
196 Post contains links fr8mech : Another thread, but yes, FDR's policies were socialist. Big government, transfer payments, cradle to grave...sound familiar? His policies prolonged t
197 CaliAtenza : Uh that link you sent me is to a radical right wing webpage. Yeah, im not reading that drivel, sorry. Yes, WWII finally got us out, but the New deal
198 AGM100 : Their wont be anymore illegal aliens if they have their way ... they will all become citizens ... see ? That is why they dont have to make that claim
199 arrow : There isn't an answer that's easy. I didn't say the US economy "will not grow," I said you won't grow your way out of your debt problems. In the past
200 AirStairs : What currency will take it's place? It's now pretty clear that it won't be the Euro. Isn't that all the more reason to cut spending on entitlements a
201 arrow : A couple of years ago, I thought it would be the Euro, but not any more. It will likely be a basket with the US dollar as a component along with the
202 Post contains links CaliAtenza : Uh, Bush was the one who came up with that Amnesty thing and the Guest Workers program. AGM100, i think you've gone off the deep end and built yourse
203 AGM100 : True ... and I opposed it . But I have no doubt that this administration will ( or would have ) pushed even harder. The Democrats need votors in the
204 fr8mech : Yes, but the quote and audio is from a radical Leftist. I'll cautiously agree that new taxes may be required, but only after spending is cut and frau
205 Ken777 : The rules have been followed. There is a House Bill that has passed. A Senate Bill that has passed. In accordance with the rules the House can pass t
206 AGM100 : Ken ...we agree . I support a guest worker program .... And if they are legaly here and pay taxes they should get health services ( if it passes). If
207 Post contains images Ken777 : We agree? Has one of us been smoking those funny California cigarettes?
208 Post contains images AirStairs : But what we (or at least I) am trying to do now is to opt OUT of the entitlements, to end them. I support healthcare reform that is targeted at lower
209 MoltenRock : Which specific spending in healthcare are you talking about? How much is this spending now, how much do you propose to cut it? Will you cut $200 bill
210 AirStairs : I am happy to entertain some military cuts, as long as social entitlement cuts come up as well, hust like I've said I'd conditionally entertain some
211 Post contains links Ken777 : Sorry, it doesn't work that way. If you are not in SS then you would need to be covered by a law that requires you to have part of your paycheck take
212 Tommy767 : Here's an idea: How about stop worrying so much about health care and start giving a sh*t about unemployment?!?!
213 MoltenRock : You saw how that went last week with Republicans filibustering, stalling, and blocking paying the unemployment benefits and other benefits for those
214 Tommy767 : I'm not but I think when the unemployment rate stalls at 9.7% (or more) for months there is a huge economic problem that needs to be resolved. The ho
215 Ken777 : Be realistic. What military expenses will you be cutting? Salaries for those wearing the uniform? Or their VA benefits (an entitlement?) when they fi
216 Tommy767 : Thats how it goes sometimes. People work freelance (like me) and have to pay for their own health care even if they work for a company. It's not the
217 WarRI1 : I agree rules must be followed. If Constitutional Authority is exceeded, I would think the Republicans and those who oppose this bill and procedure w
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