kaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 11950 posts, RR: 37 Reply 1, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4132 times:
Just trying to throw its weight around; at the end of the day, who loses here; Iran has lots of flight links with Gulf states; if these are cut off (and these countries will reciprocate if their airlines are kicked off the route), then Iran inflicts a lot of economic damage on itself - and it's not as if its economy has been a stellar performer.
As one person wrote, "if Iran was so desperate for the Gulf to be known as the Persian Gulf, why did they change to country's name to Iran?!"
Maybe the best solution to this would be to re-name the Gulf as "the Islamic Gulf"?
The one thing that bothers me is whether this is a manufactured issue, which Iran intends to use as a big stick against its neighbours.
Eightball From Saudi Arabia, joined Oct 2007, 271 posts, RR: 1 Reply 2, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4014 times:
I think that a better solution could have been chosen for this issue. All the Iranians have to do is to meet up with their neighbors from across the Gulf in order to come up with a fair, unbiased solution.
mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6175 posts, RR: 74 Reply 3, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3959 times:
Well, as far as I know from the geography lessons I received in my home country and in Europe, that gulf, is (or at least was) called the Persian gulf...
Now if people start calling it the Arabian gulf, the Iranian government need to look at the mirror and think why has some renamed it the Arabian gulf?
I do wonder, how will they check? Intercept an airline, force it to land, and inspect the inflight magazines to look at the map and see if it was written Arabian gulf or Persian gulf?
Or, upon entering Iranian Airspace, the ATC would ask "XYZ###, are you over/going to the Arabian Gulf or the Persian Gulf?", if aircraft reply Persian Gulf, aircraft may proceed, and if aircraft reply Arabian gulf, the plane has it's flight plan portion over Iranian airspace cancelled?
If they're asking about the inflight maps on the IFE... then let's just shut down the moving map whilst it's in Iranian airspace...
Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
brianhames From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 795 posts, RR: 2 Reply 4, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3895 times:
Quoting kaitak (Reply 1): "if Iran was so desperate for the Gulf to be known as the Persian Gulf, why did they change to country's name to Iran?!"
Probably because ethnically Iranians are Persian, not Arab. Hence "Arabian Gulf" really ticks them off it appears as noted in the BBC version of the story.
MEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4117 posts, RR: 37 Reply 5, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3817 times:
Oh imagine if the Gulf of Mexico is named Gulf of Texas on US airline flights, or the North Sea is called British Sea I can also imagine that Mexico or the Netherlands would put up some protest.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10649 posts, RR: 100 Reply 6, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3765 times:
Quoting kaitak (Reply 1): Just trying to throw its weight around; at the end of the day, who loses here; Iran has lots of flight links with Gulf states; if these are cut off (and these countries will reciprocate if their airlines are kicked off the route), then Iran inflicts a lot of economic damage on itself - and it's not as if its economy has been a stellar performer.
My opinion too. I doubt Iran had in the bilaterals "you will call this sea the Persian Gulf." So if they cancel rights, it is violating a bilateral.
I like this quote in the BBC link:
"As for the minister, Hamid Behbahani, it may or may not be a coincidence that he is making a stand on this patriotic matter at a time when he is facing calls for his impeachment for alleged lack of competence. "
Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 5): Oh imagine if the Gulf of Mexico is named Gulf of Texas on US airline flights,
AT From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 863 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3549 times:
Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 5): Oh imagine if the Gulf of Mexico is named Gulf of Texas on US airline flights, or the North Sea is called British Sea I can also imagine that Mexico or the Netherlands would put up some protest.
ElmoTheHobo From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1515 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3483 times:
I am Middle East studies major (BA & MA), I once jokingly alluded to the "Arabian Gulf" in a presentation about Saudi-Iranian relations in class. The teacher, a well educated "secularist" lowered my participation grade by a full letter grade on the spot.
They take it REALLY seriously.
Geographically speaking, Iran makes up the majority of the shoreline, and significant populations of Iranians have lived on both sides of the Gulf, so really it should be the "Persian Gulf", besides the Arabs get the "Arabian Sea", which barely touches any Arab countries.
Quoting mandala499 (Reply 3): the Iranian government need to look at the mirror and think why has some renamed it the Arabian gulf?
Politics, and a generally anti-Iranian (and anti-Shi'a) sentiment among the predominantly Sunni Arab governments on the other side of the Gulf.
Quoting kaitak (Reply 1): "if Iran was so desperate for the Gulf to be known as the Persian Gulf, why did they change to country's name to Iran?!"
The papa Shah (Reza Shah) renamed it Iran, there are a couple reasons why, IMO he did it because "Persian" is one of many ethnic groups and languages in Iran, it would make more sense have a neutral name than have one that is associated with one ethnic group. It also granted a bit of legitimacy to Iranian territorial claims over (parts of) Azerbaijan and Armenia.
DZ09 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 481 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3483 times:
Split the thing in the middle and call the half closer to iran persian gulf and the other arabian gulf. What a silly issue!
True, also in German, it is called Ostsee, Eastern Sea. The North Sea, called Nordsee in German, is called Vesterhavet in Danish, so its also the West-Sea in Danish. But that are just geographic names without political impacts, unlike the situation in the Gulf.
Of course, during cold war, there were lots of similiar issues between the Communist States and the west. For example, calling West-Germany "BRD" was prohibited in western Germany, as it was used in the East.
All propaganda. There are more relevant problems this world has to solve.
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10649 posts, RR: 100 Reply 12, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3362 times:
Since I doubt Iran spelled out any details in a bilateral, when they cancel other nation's rights to fly to Iran, it should automatically void Iran's rights. That might become interesting very quickly. This could effectively put a 'wall' for flights in and out of Iran (in particular, Saudi).
What fraction of Iranian flights require over-flight rights over nations whom would be banned. e.g, Saudi is unlikely to back down.
Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 9): so really it should be the "Persian Gulf",
I read what you wrote, but I wonder 'why?' when I look at a map, most of the coastline looks to be UAE/Saudi/Qatar.
Please read this:
Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 7): The water which is named Baltic Sea in English, is named Eastern Sea here in Denmark.
In Estonia, however, the same water is named Western Sea.
ElmoTheHobo, different nations have a right to name different seas different things. This shouldn't be handled this way by Iran (I know, a shock). I'm going to be curious if any flights are banned.
Since some nations do not want to be associated with the Persian empire... Iran should accept that and let sleeping dogs lie.
I see the UAE bans the term 'Persian Gulf.' Ok, tit for tat. Names change. I think this would hurt Iran far more than anyone else.
ElmoTheHobo From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1515 posts, RR: 1 Reply 13, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3173 times:
Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 11): All propaganda. There are more relevant problems this world has to solve.
Absolutely, but why fight over issues of substance when you can fight over the nitty gritty details.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 12): I see the UAE bans the term 'Persian Gulf.' Ok, tit for tat. Names change. I think this would hurt Iran far more than anyone else.
The UAE wouldn't, there are simply too many business and cultural connections between the UAE and Iran.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 12): ElmoTheHobo, different nations have a right to name different seas different things. This shouldn't be handled this way by Iran (I know, a shock). I'm going to be curious if any flights are banned.
They do, but the recognized, international term for the Persian Gulf is "The Persian Gulf." Besides, as I mentioned, the Arabs get the "Arabian Sea."
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 12): Since some nations do not want to be associated with the Persian empire... Iran should accept that and let sleeping dogs lie.
It's not that the nations don't want to be associated with the Persian Empire, in fact the Iranians are the ones that are more upset with their past in the Arab world (or more specifically, the "Arab Conquest'). It's more of a nonsense issue for the Arab side of the Gulf to poke at Iran over, knowing full well that Iran isn't going to do anything back. It goes back to this tit for tat nationalism - Ahmadinejad tries to appeal to the so-called "Arab Street," and rile the Shi'a masses, Qatar/Kuwait come back by calling the "Persian Gulf" the "Arabian Gulf." It'll be funny when, fifty years down the line, Iran will have the most remaining oil and the Gulf states will have gone through most of their oil.
SOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3009 posts, RR: 17 Reply 16, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3046 times:
Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 9): Geographically speaking, Iran makes up the majority of the shoreline, and significant populations of Iranians have lived on both sides of the Gulf, so really it should be the "Persian Gulf", besides the Arabs get the "Arabian Sea", which barely touches any Arab countries.
Sorry to say but you are wrong here. The majority of the population leaving around that Gulf are Arab Tribes. Iran is trying to wipe up all traces to the Arabs in Iran even if they are a large portion of the Iranians.
prebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6016 posts, RR: 55 Reply 18, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2883 times:
Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 11): The North Sea, called Nordsee in German, is called Vesterhavet in Danish, so its also the West-Sea in Danish.
Right! But in fact the North Sea has two names in Danish language, Vesterhavet (Western Sea) and Nordsøen (North Sea).
During the last few decades the name Nordsøen has become much more widely used, and for instance the national weather bureau never uses the (old) name Vesterhavet.
We have changed it due to political pressure from Germany. We do not want to have our airliners shot down over German territory due to a name conflict.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
ElmoTheHobo From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1515 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2880 times:
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 16): Sorry to say but you are wrong here. The majority of the population leaving around that Gulf are Arab Tribes. Iran is trying to wipe up all traces to the Arabs in Iran even if they are a large portion of the Iranians.
That is not entirely correct. While Arab tribes make up a significant portion of the population along the coast, the biggest population is in Khuzestan, and even there, they do not make up a significant majority (if at all, culturally). Ethnic Arabs make up a small portion of the total population of Iran (>5%), and of those many are not "Tribal Arabs," rather they came after 1900.
And there are no such attempts to "wipe up all traces of the Arabs in Iran." Arabic is taught in many schools and universities, and many Arabs of Khuzestan still speak Arabic. The same cannot be said of countries of the Arabian Gulf, which have made explicit attempts to curb Shi'a rights and identity.
I am not a defender of the Iranian regime or an Arabophile/Iranophile , I am just stating facts that are often confused or cooked up to benefit each other's argument.
Point being, you can call it what you want, but it is officially recognized as the Persian Gulf.
web500sjc From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 588 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2847 times:
I guess burning American flags is just too old now, so they'll start banning Arab airlines, theis will definatly be a first banning sombody over how a natural feature is named. Now "countries" is a different story but natural features, sombody should knock some common sense in to im'a'nut'job (sorry can't spell his name, well not all that sorry) over there and have him do somthing usefull for his country to gain some amount of international respect besides north korea.
IRelayer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 1070 posts, RR: 2 Reply 21, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2787 times:
Quoting PC12Fan (Thread starter): I understand respecting culture beliefs but isn't his just a bit over the top?
It's not a cultural belief. That's its name. I agree though, probably not the best way to deal with the situation.
Imagine changing "Indian Ocean" to something else, or "South China Sea" to something else. This is just a manifestation as a loooooong running cultural rivalry between Arab states and Iran.
Quoting kaitak (Reply 1): Just trying to throw its weight around; at the end of the day, who loses here; Iran has lots of flight links with Gulf states; if these are cut off (and these countries will reciprocate if their airlines are kicked off the route), then Iran inflicts a lot of economic damage on itself - and it's not as if its economy has been a stellar performer.
As one person wrote, "if Iran was so desperate for the Gulf to be known as the Persian Gulf, why did they change to country's name to Iran?!"
Maybe the best solution to this would be to re-name the Gulf as "the Islamic Gulf"?
The one thing that bothers me is whether this is a manufactured issue, which Iran intends to use as a big stick against its neighbours.
Persia "changed" its name to Iran because "Iran" is what "Iranians" had been calling themselves for millenia. Persia was the Western name for the country.
ElmoTheHobo From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1515 posts, RR: 1 Reply 23, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2614 times:
I would be surprised if they really did this, IMO this is just saber rattling that is going to be met by more saber rattling, and then by some Saudi F16s and AWACS straddling the international maritime border while some Iranian F-14s take off from Bandar Abbas and land on Kish Island only to fly back to Bandar Abbas.
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 22): I am talking about the complete population around the Arabian Gulf not only in Iran, we should include UAE, Saudi, Qatar, Kuwait and Iraq.
If you include Iraq, you can include Iran's entire population. Even all those countries combined do not add up to Iran's current population (71M). Iraq (25M), Saudi Arabia (25M), Qatar (1.2M), UAE (4.5M), Bahrain (.75M), Oman (2.75M).
Quoting web500sjc (Reply 20): I guess burning American flags is just too old now
It's not like they just woke up one day and decided to burn American flags, there is a history of Western intervention that seems to be forgotten on this side of the world, and they are pissed with good reason.
Quoting web500sjc (Reply 20): over there and have him do somthing usefull for his country to gain some amount of international respect besides north korea.
It's hard out there for Iran. They are surrounded by nuclear powers or countries protected by nuclear umbrellas, not to mention having US forces and allies on their Eastern and Western flanks, with generally hostile countries across the Persian Gulf.
I'm not going to condone them building nuclear weapons, but you can understand why they want they them.
AirIndia From United Arab Emirates, joined Jan 2001, 1544 posts, RR: 1 Reply 24, posted (3 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2574 times:
25 timpdx: I sort of thought about these sorts of things when I was on an EY flight from AUH to JFK last month. We jogged north pretty far into Iran, as I could
26 LAXintl: Over-flights is not a right, but a privilege, and rarely part of bilateral agreements(except some with former USSR). A country is free to allow transi
27 TGV: Between the UK and France we have the "English Channel" on one side, and "La Manche" on the other side. So did I. I have an exactly symetrical experi
28 N1120A: Oh come on, its the Persian Gulf. Saudi Arabia and the whole Arabian Peninsula would just be a desert with a few Bedouin if there wasn't oil there.
29 SOBHI51: And Iran would be what??? It is the Arabian Gulf for me thats the way i learned it, thats the way i will call, you can call it whatever you like. Als
30 N1120A: Iran is and always has been far more than oil. Perhaps more civilized. It has been called the Persian Gulf for thousands of years. The Arabian Gulf g
31 SOBHI51: Very nice choice of words shows your personality. Don;t just say something prove it. There is not a lot of difference in that area before oil. Maybe
32 AirxLiban: Persian Gulf is the correct name for the body of water in question. Not sure whether the Iranian government wants to use this is a bargaining chip or
33 US330: Now this is a sign of a government with its priorities in check! I don't know what other countries/languages call the body of water in question, but i
34 AirframeAS: How about this solution: Call it the "Gulf of the Middle East" and call it a day. I think it has a nice ring to it.
35 directorguy: I've always known it as the 'Persian Gulf'. A few years ago, I was doing an (Arabic) Social Studies exam and was required to fill in a blank map; I us
36 falstaff: On the globe that I have, which was made in the 80s, it is listed as the Persian Gulf. That is what I always called it and I never heard it called an
37 vc10: The only purpose in given any geographical feature a name is so other people know where you are talking about. If the rest of the world want to call i
38 N1120A: Those guys are morons, but not so stupid as to know the consequences of actually using a nuclear weapon, or even letting one fall into a terrorist's
39 AirframeAS: The question I have is why do we accept the behavior of the Saudi's, and not the Iranians if this were true? That makes no sense......
40 yowza: The Iranians can harp all they want. The GCC has them under their thumb. http://airceo.com/2010/02/iran-to-ba...s-not-using-the-term-persian-gulf/ YOW
41 SOBHI51: Can uou give any proof for such statetment from 2001 till now? And please no hearsay. At least they are not trying to get nuclear weapons.
42 ElmoTheHobo: That's because "Persian Gulf" is the international accepted term. Arabian Gulf is a regional issue, a product of Arab Nationalism that saw/sees Iran
43 ElmoTheHobo: Saudi Arabia doesn't need nuclear weapons, they are protected by the United States' nuclear umbrella. Secondly, after extensively researching the top
44 Eightball: I was taught in all of my geography classes at school that the gulf between Iran and the GCC states is called the Arabian Gulf. As a little kid, I rem
45 B727fan: Sorry to burst your bubble , but Saudi Arabia is the one county which has wiped out minorities. historically, you had Jews, Christians and even pagan
46 ElmoTheHobo: We don't ban schools founded by Baptist extremists, they are entitled to teach whatever nonsense they want. Saudi Arabia has cracked down on terroris
47 ElmoTheHobo: Not to nitpick or come off as rude, but "madrassa" merely means school in Arabic and Persian (and a few other languages). It's unfortunate that such
48 Dambuster: This new trend by certain Arab states has got to stop, why change an official name? It was called Persian Gulf in the first place because Persians do
49 Dambuster: One important fact here: Iran's population: 75 million, Saudi Arabia's population 28 million, UAE population nearly 7 million of which only 17.8% are
50 UAEflyer: Why don't we solve the issue and name it THE GREEN GULF. I think everbody will be happy for that name. Furthermore, Emirates Airline named it THE GULF
51 Oshkosh1: It's the Persian Gulf already...I spent YEARS of my life in that region...The whole "Arabian Gulf" name didn't really become an issue until after Dese
52 SolarFlyer22: I am totally biased on this being of Persian descent so I will caveat that upfront. I will enlighten my American friends a bit and say one of the rea
53 AirframeAS: Thanks! I was waiting for someone to actually agree with me and respond to my suggestion.
54 Pagophilus: France has a lot to answer for. A lot of the Khmer Rouge leaders in Cambodia were also educated in France.
55 bwvilla: Why not just leave it un-named on the inflight maps - indeed leave out the names of all seas except the oceans, since as has been pointed out by othe
56 ElmoTheHobo: France didn't set up the Islamic Republic, the Islamic Republic based its constitution on that of the French Republic. I am not sure what France has
57 SolarFlyer22: Thank You, Thank You, Thank you! All middle easterners know what Madrassah or Maddrasel in Persian means and it is mind boggling how incorrectly this
58 SepulTALLICA: Seems our homies in Iran have gambled a lot over a silly name: ...The Islamic Solidarity Games Federation (ISSF) located in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia has c
59 N1120A: The ISSF is stupid then. A large portion? You are kidding, right? The 6 different groups that make up the "Persians" make up about 50% of the populat
60 SOBHI51: OK not a large portion. Happy now? If you read what i said i was talking about people living on or near the shores of the Arabian (Persian) Gulf or wh
61 ElmoTheHobo: This tit for tat thing is nonsense. No one is saying either side is blameless, but there is a clear anti-Iran narrative everywhere, and it often paint
62 N1120A: Persian Gulf. Thousands of years v. less than 50. BTW, I seriously doubt the people in Bandar Abbas would be happy with you calling them Arabs. Did I
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Names change. I think this would hurt Iran far more than anyone else.
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