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Obama Proposes Overhaul In Education Law  
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8278 posts, RR: 8
Posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2405 times:

This one is giong to be interesting:

Quote:
The Obama administration on Saturday called for a broad overhaul of the Bush administration’s No Child Left Behind law, proposing to eliminate divisive provisions, including those that have encouraged instructors to teach to tests, crowded out subjects other than math and reading, and labeled one in every three American public schools as failing.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/14/education/14child.html

[Edited 2010-03-13 13:38:46 by srbmod]

34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJetsGo From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3083 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2337 times:

Does it include eliminating tenure? That's the single biggest step we can take to improving public education.


Marine Corps Aviation, The Last To Let You Down!
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8153 posts, RR: 26
Reply 2, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2336 times:

Does it include disbandment of the DOE and returning those federal monies to the 50 states?


If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 3, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2317 times:

Replace "pass fail" with attendence numbers and "learning climate" ??? Sounds like liberal double speak ....

I am not big fan of NCLB ....but the liberals in our state protest of it goes somethig like this ..Its unfair that kids have to pass a battery of exams in order to graduate . Simply put they claim its un inclusive too require passing the AIMS test inorder to recieve your diploma. I shake my head everytime I hear that arguemnt ... especialy pro illegal immirgrant groups they always claim unfair standards. Its ridiculous !

Seeing the other legislations coming from this administration .... I assume the policy will rotten with liberal social equality and touchy feely BS.



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8278 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2283 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 2):
Its unfair that kids have to pass a battery of exams in order to graduate .

It's actually a bit queer to require a particular test to be passed in order to graduate.

The first problem is that schools manipulate their operations to make their results look good.

I was in Houston a few years ago and there was a pretty rough story in Houston Chronicle about the games played. If they have a student not ready for the test they simply hold them back in the previous grade so they don't have to take the test. Then they let them skip a grade. What crap.

Schools need to teach kids based on their needs. If a student wants to go into a trade at 18 then they should have an education focused on that goal. If university is in the future then make AP courses available so part of that future work can be covered - and not paid for later.

And when politicians come up with bright ideas let's see if they will fully fund them for once.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19711 posts, RR: 58
Reply 5, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2254 times:

"Replace "pass fail" with attendence numbers and "learning climate" ??? Sounds like liberal double speak ...."

It's a lot better than the NCLB plan. That plan closed schools that were doing well by putting too-rigid definitions. Life is not about taking tests, life is about having the skills to hold down a job. NCLB also put a lot of requirements on teachers that make the job even more difficult and frustrating.

NCLB was the worst thing to happen to public education in this country and I'm glad to see it go. *anything* is better than NCLB.


User currently offlineLtbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13115 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 2233 times:

We indeed need a radical change in our K-12 basic education programs.
There should be a national standard of what 90% of students should be able to understand for their age.
We need to get away from the lock-step of grade for age.
School should be a postive experience, not drugery.
While compentent teachers should be protected from political dismissals, the original purpose of tenure, we need to keep out and remove the incompenent.
We need to cut out the unnessary such as some sports (especially in High School) and accent more on participation of all in some physical program to keep a healthy body and in turn a healthy mind.
We need some way to cut out the excessive and expensive layers of bureaucrats in all school systems and in the State level.
School facilities should not be so overcrowded so kids learn in trailers and large closets.
We also need to recognize that for too many kids, their parents are too busy, too narrowminded, too uncaring to be an important part of the educational process and for schools to figure out ways in their programs to deal with it.
Last, we all must realize that while the costs of education are not cheap, ignorance is far more expensive.


User currently offlineJetsGo From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3083 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2217 times:

Quoting Ltbewr (Reply 6):
We need to cut out the unnessary such as some sports (especially in High School)

I highly disagree here. Having played several sports throughout high school, I can say first hand that this was a huge factor in me growing up and maturing. It provides young adults with a sense of motivation, responsibility, and character when ran correctly. Furthermore, it teaches them to work together with their peers to achieve a common goal. In fact, I think sports should be expanded to provide something for all students. Not everyone can play football or wrestle. I would also suggest physical education be revamped from just "running laps" to team sports within that class.



Marine Corps Aviation, The Last To Let You Down!
User currently offlinesccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5520 posts, RR: 28
Reply 8, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2195 times:

Stupidity reigns. It is the height of arrogance for the federal government (of any administration or party) to believe that they, at the federal level, can achieve anything better than the state and local educators can do.


...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5664 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2178 times:

Quoting Ltbewr (Reply 6):
We also need to recognize that for too many kids, their parents are too busy, too narrowminded, too uncaring to be an important part of the educational process and for schools to figure out ways in their programs to deal with it

Baring in mind that I am coming from a TOTALLY different direction to the USA situation, and I teach in post secondary education, I think this is the real big problem in ALL education in all developed countries.

I would dispute that dealing with this problem is really what schools are for. Teacher are not trained to be behaviorist nor do they wish to be. School are there to educate people, not correct problems created by the family situation nor are they funded to do so.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineTCrew From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 10 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2153 times:

Quoting sccutler (Reply 8):
It is the height of arrogance for the federal government (of any administration or party) to believe that they, at the federal level, can achieve anything better than the state and local educators can do.

I am a proponent of having a national body that establishes the standards for education. What makes a student in New Mexico any different than one in Washington or Virginia in terms of the world they will face upon graduation? This is truly a global world. College bound students do not always remain in their home state and can reasonably expect to be in a college classroom with students from other states (AND other countries). Having 50 different standards for what students are expected to know when entering college is ridiculous. That only delays the progress they make in college, because professors now need to ensure each student is on the same page before even beginning to teach at the college level. Creating a national standard for what students should be expected to grasp when receiving their high school diplomas will allow the States to be more competitive in the global community. It is not arrogance, but a desire to further our populations skill sets in a cohesive manner.

Quoting Ltbewr (Reply 6):
We need some way to cut out the excessive and expensive layers of bureaucrats in all school systems and in the State level.
School facilities should not be so overcrowded so kids learn in trailers and large closets.

These are largely issues to be dealt with on the local level. A federal agency should be more directed towards shaping the path of education, not the execution.

Quoting Ltbewr (Reply 6):
We need to cut out the unnessary such as some sports (especially in High School)

I do believe that sports play a practical role in childhood development and fitness. But, unless these sports are balanced out by revenues the sporting events earn the teams should either be funded by the participants or eliminated. Young people can play sports outside of school and phys ed is available to teach health/fitness.



TCrew
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 11, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2109 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
NCLB was the worst thing to happen to public education in this country and I'm glad to see it go. *anything* is better than NCLB.

anything is better ?? What ?

I have 3 kids in public school ..... I see it every day. About the only problem that I have with it is ...it forces the ciriculum towards passing the exams. It narrows the ciriculum to the essential of the exams and becomes very repetitive .

Now ... in some way that is good because the priority is on reading comprehension , writing and arithmetic .... and that is what the exams cover primarily.

Most of the complaining is from those who beleive that the system is unfair.... that is just not true. It still comes down to the student . My daughter fit into the system well ... she is graduating this year in the top 5% of her class . She takes advantage of the top tier in the system by taking the AP courses offered. My son , well he is not as motivated ...so he takes the basic skill level courses and gets by on them. The system is really set up to catch and provide classes that fit the wide span of students. Like it or not it does . But it still takes hard work and attention to pass the exams .... that is not bad.

In our state ..the biggest opposition group to NCLB is from the hispanic activist community . They do not like it one bit .... of course they want the tests in spanish and would rather scrap the exam policy altogther. I know they do not represent the hispanic parents I know ... parents who want the kids to learn english and too get the best education they can . The hispanic groups want easy diplomas and too lower the bar so far that diplomas mean nothing.

I know that alot of kids drop out rather than face the exams .... but what do we do ? Scrap all the standards just to help kids graduate ! Hell know .



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8841 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2093 times:

I have no problem with the idea, but this worries me:

Quote:
In addition, President Obama would replace the law’s requirement that every American child reach proficiency in reading and math, which administration officials have called utopian, with a new national target that could prove equally elusive: that all students should graduate from high school prepared for college and a career

That is just wrong. Not everyone needs or wants to go to college. As me father used to tell me whenever my grades started slacking off at school, "The world needs ditch-diggers too."

It's up to the student, and to some extent the parents and the teachers to help motivate them. Otherwise it's their choice, and lowering the standards for High School so that everyone graduates just ensures that a High School diploma means as much as a Middle School diploma - zilch, nada.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6104 posts, RR: 28
Reply 13, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2071 times:
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Quoting AGM100 (Reply 3):
Replace "pass fail" with attendence numbers and "learning climate" ??? Sounds like liberal double speak ....

Attendence is a huge issue for many students, especially low income students, who many times have parents who don't care much for education. When students don't come to class on a regular basis they become behavior problems and usually end up not learning much. Student who show up regularly usually do much better. I have seen it so many times in my nine years as a high school shop teacher. The kids who have poor attendence do poorly. Getting kids to school in lower income areas is a challenge. I teach in a upper middle class district today and we have no problem with attendence numbers as a whole. The school where I used to teach was mostly poor students and there were many days during the year the day didn't count because attendence was too low. Sometimes even just a rainy day would keep kids away. Some parents don't care if their kid goes to school either. I once had a parent tell me (when I called home to see where her son had been) that if her kid wanted to go to school he would have to find his own way there, she wasn't getting up early to take him.

Quoting Ltbewr (Reply 6):
We need to cut out the unnessary such as some sports (especially in High School)

No way. Sports and other activities do several things, one get kid envolved and learn about teamwork, which we all know is important in real life. Sports Give kids a chance to be active and promote an active lifesytle. They also can provide a student with the desire to go to school and do well. I have a student right now who is loves sports, but is a bad student. He only does his work so he can be can play sports. He does satisfactory work and he does learn. Yes he should be learning because he wants to, but the results are the same. Without high school sports he would have been a drop out. Another benefit to sports is the building of community it provides. Yesterday my high school won the state championship hockey game. There were over 400 students at the game cheering on their team. Not bad considering our school has around 980 students. The opposing team had just as many. Many members of the community where at the game too. Our school's sports events are usually well attended by students, staff, and locals many of whom went to the school at one time or another.

It isn't just sports, but things like band, choir, and drama too. 11% of our students are in the band. By and large the students who cause the most trouble in the school are students who participate in nothing. The school I used to teach at had nothing for kids to do other than school. We attracted the student who also likes to do nothing. The kids who like sports, theater, band, clubs, and other activites never enrolled. Sure we saved a lot of money by not having activites, but I think we paid a high price fornot having those things and attracting a better student.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):
Not everyone needs or wants to go to college. As me father used to tell me whenever my grades started slacking off at school, "The world needs ditch-diggers too."

That is very true. There are Universities in the USA that offer degrees in fields like automotive technology (my degree), contruction technology, Plastics, and machine technolgy, just to name a few. I tell parents all the time that if their son/daughter wants to work on cars for a living and you want them to go to college they can do both. Many parents and school officials have no idea that there are colleges and universities with technical programs. My parents were just like that, they had no idea that there were BS degrees in Automotive Technology.

Not every kid needs to wants to go to school after high school. That is ok, but they do need some kind of training. I meet people all the time who have advanced degrees, but have to call AAA to put on their spare tire. Some people spent years in college learning about econimics, but have to call an electrician to install an light switch. I run into those people in the academic world all the time and they always knock the trades until their car breaks down or their furnace needs fixed. Back when I was in school "they" were telling us about the great tech jobs that we should strive for. Turns out that didn't work out and those jobs can be outsourced out of the country. The trades are sure bet to job security. I tell parents who wonder if their son should be a mechanic this: "no matter what we drive we will need people to serivce/repair them and to repair them when they get wrecked, you cannot outsource auto repair, it has to be done locally".



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineTCrew From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 10 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2057 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):
As me father used to tell me whenever my grades started slacking off at school, "The world needs ditch-diggers too."

I think that is one of the biggest drawbacks of the reforms made last decade. The system now makes all students progress on a college bound track. It is admirable to promote a program of attempting to graduate as many students as possible heading to college, but this is at the expense of forcing a subset of students who have either no desire or capability for college into participating in the same program. I do not think leaving the choice up to the students is that answer; it is all too easy for a student to decide on the easier path for short term benefits rather than thinking about the future. But the path should not be absolute. If after a review process of some sorts it is determined the student would be better off in a program targeted towards preparation for a career direct out of high school, why not allow for that to happen? Instead of forcing them to experience a program that they will more than likely fail out of anyway, set them on a course to graduate with the necessary tools to head directly into the workforce. The world does need ditch-diggers and there is nothing wrong with being one. College degrees won't increase your pay in every job.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):
In addition, President Obama would replace the law’s requirement that every American child reach proficiency in reading and math, which administration officials have called utopian, with a new national target that could prove equally elusive: that all students should graduate from high school prepared for college and a career

I believe if you change the last few words to "prepared for college or a career" then they are on the right track. I do not have insight on their motivations, but if they are removing regulations that each student is forced to attain current equivalent college-level proficiencies then it sounds like they may be moving towards a multi-tiered system like I mentioned above.



TCrew
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 15, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2042 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 13):
Attendence is a huge issue for many students, especially low income students, who many times have parents who don't care much for education

Agreed ... and that is a no brainer. When we need the governemnt to tell our parents that they should send the kids too school... what is the point ? I mean ... we lower the standrds to include people who dont know that ??? Woa ..no wonder we are in trouble.



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 16, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2032 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 4):
Schools need to teach kids based on their needs. If a student wants to go into a trade at 18 then they should have an education focused on that goal. If university is in the future then make AP courses available so part of that future work can be covered - and not paid for later.

No, I disagree. The schools are there to teach the basics (build a foundation) to the students. What you are suggesting is making the high schools become actual certified Universities. It does not work that way.

Once a student is graduated from High School, either he/she can then decide to either go into a trade or go to a University. AP classes in a high school is a positive plus for kids, but it does not mean that it is a required part of high school. High schools are not required to offer AP classes.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 17, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2023 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 4):
The first problem is that schools manipulate their operations to make their results look good.

Until these schools are kept on a leash by parents, rather than federal/state bureaucrats and teacher's unions, these games will continue to be played.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinemdsh00 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4125 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2022 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):

Disagree with that a lot. While you are right that not everybody in this society is meant to go to college, I find far too often that HS graduates are not proficient in even the most basic concepts of math, science, and even geography (I'm throwing that last one in as my own opinion). I'm sometimes shocked and I feel that schools in this country do not place as much of an emphasis on those subjects. There has to be some standard to meet, and yes we could take some cues from other countries.



"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
User currently offlinefuturepilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2016 times:

Quoting Ltbewr (Reply 6):
We need to cut out the unnessary such as some sports (especially in High School) and accent more on participation of all in some physical program to keep a healthy body and in turn a healthy mind.

Complete nonsense. Sports actually does more for kids in High School than the teachers do. Playing sports, it was the only thing I enjoyed about High School

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):
That is just wrong. Not everyone needs or wants to go to college. As me father used to tell me whenever my grades started slacking off at school, "The world needs ditch-diggers too."

Couldn't agree more. I don't understand the reasoning behind the "everyone needs to go to college" Idea. College is not for everyone, this is from personal opinion. And yes, as sad as it is, the world does need ditch diggers.



"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6104 posts, RR: 28
Reply 20, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1991 times:
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Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 16):
Once a student is graduated from High School, either he/she can then decide to either go into a trade or go to a University. AP classes in a high school is a positive plus for kids, but it does not mean that it is a required part of high school. High schools are not required to offer AP classes.

To ask a high schooler what they want to do for a career is not that good of an idea. A lot of them either have no idea or may change their mind later. I wanted to be in broadcasting all the way through high school I loved working on cars but never thought to make it my career until after I got out of high school. I never thought about teaching until I got out of college. I have met hundreds of students who wanted to do one thing but ended up doing something else. Also I have kids who are introduced to auto service in my class and decide to do that for a living. Remember there are universities that offer degree in what many would consider a trade. I have a BS in Automotive Technology from Southern Illinois University and I learned out to be a great mechanic as well as well rounded in other University subjects. All those shop classes I took in high school helped me out as much as an AP chemistry class would a chemical engineering major. I have arrangements with a few colleges that will allow my auto tech students earn college credit. My class can be just as important as an AP class.

Our wood shop teacher has a sticker on his truck that reads "my woodshop student can build your honor student whatever he needs". I love it, I always wanted on that read "my auto shop student can fix your honor student's car".

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 19):
Playing sports, it was the only thing I enjoyed about High School

I hear that a lot.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 19):
And yes, as sad as it is, the world does need ditch diggers.

You can't outsource ditch digging to another country via the telephone or internet. The ditch needs to be dug here and now so whoever is close by with ditch digging tools and the best price gets the job. Actually digging can be a good job. I had a couple students get a job at a cemetery digging graves and doing grounds keeping work for a park time job, they were paid very well for what they did.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineYellowstone From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3071 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1975 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 16):
AP classes in a high school is a positive plus for kids, but it does not mean that it is a required part of high school. High schools are not required to offer AP classes.

They essentially are, if they want to send their students to mid-to-upper level 4-year colleges. You almost certainly can't get into, say, an Ivy without 6 to 8 AP courses or an IB curriculum.



Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 22, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1976 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 4):
And when politicians come up with bright ideas let's see if they will fully fund them for once.

So, we have evidence in this thread of a lot of different opinions and approaches to fixing education, but some people still want a "federal standard" to freeze "what they think is best" in the face of this diversity of disagreement. Why someone would want this inflexibility is beyond me.

Quoting sccutler (Reply 8):
Stupidity reigns. It is the height of arrogance for the federal government (of any administration or party) to believe that they, at the federal level, can achieve anything better than the state and local educators can do.

The best post in this thread.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 23, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1955 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 22):
Why someone would want this inflexibility is beyond me.

It should not be beyond you ...its painfully obvious. The Fed wants too control ....everything ..... bureaucrats want central control of every detail. If they can dictate the ciriculum and standards ..they can manipulate with the money and that is what it is all about.

Same thing with healthcare ..... once they control it ...they will run it into the ground like education.



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineusair320 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 991 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1873 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 2):
Does it include disbandment of the DOE and returning those federal monies to the 50 states?

In a perfect world.....In Obama's world getting rid of the DOE and letting state and local governments take care of it wold just not happen.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 3):
especialy pro illegal immirgrant groups they always claim unfair standards.

I hate to say it, but in states like NM and AZ the illegal students who come to the country with virtually no education (some, not all)tend to bring down scores and overall school performance.

I think NCLB needs some revisions. I think it is one giant unfunded mandate, and face it..those standardized tests (although of course some form of evaluation is needed..) don't always provide an accurate assesment. I think that local governments are simply more capable of solving this complex issue because you simply cannot apply the same standards or the same programs to Detroit that you do to Malibu. Think about it....Since the DOE was created in '79 and federal control over education nearly doubled, have scores improved?? No! They have done the exact opposite.


25 GatorFan : Who's ever heard of a final exam?
26 falstaff : A final exam yes, a test to actualy graduate is a different kind of animal. The problem with such a test is that what exactly do you test? The test w
27 AGM100 : This may be true in some districts ... but it is certainly not the biggest issue. I brought up the immigrant issue only because the activists groups
28 usair320 : That's probably 60% of immigrant students. On average immigrant students score on par(if not even better) with American students. If you look at engl
29 AirframeAS : I completely agree with this sentiment. No, they are not. It is more of an discretion by the school district. Junior Colleges offer AP classes to Hig
30 Yellowstone : In many cases, high school students can indeed take college-level courses at junior colleges. However, these are not AP courses -- they are not aimed
31 Post contains images AirframeAS : I never said they were. I am not talking about HS students taking college-level courses. Taking an AP course at the local community college is not co
32 DocLightning : Speaking as an alumni admissions representative for Stanford University, AP courses are, by definition, college-level courses and DO count toward aca
33 AirframeAS : I'll yield to the fact that it probably varies from state to state and/or school district agreements with the local Junior College. But I can tell yo
34 MD11Engineer : Why not introduce an apprenticeship system like we have here in the German speaking countries in Europe for those out of highschool, who want to go i
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