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Swiss Vs Islam: Here We Go Again...  
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8826 posts, RR: 24
Posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4193 times:

Quote:
Muslims want Islamic cemeteries in every canton
An umbrella group for Swiss Muslims says they should be able to be buried “with dignity” and is therefore calling for Islamic cemeteries in every Swiss canton.

...

Islamic law says Muslims should not be buried with those of a different faith
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics...s_in_every_canton.html?cid=8477966


Switzerland is a tolerant country, and the idea that a certain segment of society cannot stand to mix (even in death) with the vast majority of the people living there is intolerant. If you don't want to mix with non-muslims, don't move to a non-muslim country.

Up to what point does a tolerant society tolerate intolerance?

[Edited 2010-03-14 18:23:55]


Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
130 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21555 posts, RR: 55
Reply 1, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4183 times:

Are they calling for government-sponsored Muslim cemeteries? That would be ridiculous, but if they want to be able to have a Muslim cemetery somewhere, I don't see why it should be prevented as long as they can raise the money to acquire and maintain the land. Does Switzerland have Jewish cemeteries?

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2829 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4147 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
I don't see why it should be prevented as long as they can raise the money to acquire and maintain the land.

I do.

Surly if you elect to go live in a country then I think you should abide by the values and customs of that country, and that may mean being buried in a common cemetery where everyone also ends up, otherwise stay where you are.

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
Does Switzerland have Jewish cemeteries?

This is another group that has been afforded to many special rights. Again why should they have a Jewish only cemetery ( if that is the case there)

If we can live together then we should be buried together, IMHO.



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21442 posts, RR: 54
Reply 3, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4073 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 2):
Surly if you elect to go live in a country then I think you should abide by the values and customs of that country, and that may mean being buried in a common cemetery where everyone also ends up, otherwise stay where you are.

Most cemeteries are not "common" but already confessional (explicitly christian).

As long as muslims, jews or christians acquire and maintain the lots at their own cost, I don't have a problem with it, especially since burial is usually highly connected to the respective specific rituals. Otherwise they should simply use non-confessional burial grounds with everybody else where available.


User currently offlineArniePie From Belgium, joined Aug 2005, 1265 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4067 times:

Some people just don't get it.
In death, everybody is equal, maybe people should take an example of how the US military honors its soldiers all on the same field (in this case, Arlington), with all different religions together;


[Edited 2010-03-14 19:51:33]

[Edited 2010-03-14 19:55:17]


[edit post]
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8871 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4047 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Quote:
Muslims want Islamic cemeteries in every canton
An umbrella group for Swiss Muslims says they should be able to be buried “with dignity” and is therefore calling for Islamic cemeteries in every Swiss canton.

Somehow that irks me, the buried with dignity bull. You are dead, is that dignified? Send the deceased back home and bury them with dignity there. I bet if that is proposed it will be met with acclamation in Switzerland. Of course by the undignified native Swiss only.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21442 posts, RR: 54
Reply 6, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4030 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 5):
Somehow that irks me, the buried with dignity bull. You are dead, is that dignified? Send the deceased back home and bury them with dignity there.

I see. So what would the swiss muslims have to do, then?


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3462 posts, RR: 17
Reply 7, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4012 times:
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The only reason that i think of for Muslims in Switzerland are requesting there own cemeteries is that dead Muslims should be burried facing a special heading (East i think). This sometimes can not be done in other cemeteries.   


I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8826 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3995 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 7):
The only reason that i think of for Muslims in Switzerland are requesting there own cemeteries is that dead Muslims should be burried facing a special heading (East i think). This sometimes can not be done in other cemeteries.

That can be managed in any cemetery I have ever visited, including at the funeral of a good friend of mine who was a Pakistani muslim buried in Switzerland.

THe problem is this:

Quote:
Farhad Afshar, president of the Coordination of Islamic Organisations in Switzerland, told the Sunday newspaper Sonntag he was preparing a legal case concerning freedom of religion.

Islamic law says Muslims should not be buried with those of a different faith – something already possible in Some Swiss cities, for example Zurich, Bern, Basel and Geneva.

Some extremist, claiming to speak for all muslims, is saying that muslims cannot be buried with infidels. If this is not true, I would hope that Switzerland's other muslims tell him publicly to go ___ himself. But somehow I don't think that will happen. I hope I'm wrong.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2829 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3986 times:

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 4):
Some people just don't get it.
In death, everybody is equal, maybe people should take an example of how the US military honors its soldiers all on the same field (in this case, Arlington), with all different religions together;

Precisely Dear Watson as Sherlock Holmes used to say

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
Some extremist, claiming to speak for all muslims, is saying that muslims cannot be buried with infidels. If this is not true, I would hope that Switzerland's other muslims tell him publicly to go ___ himself. But somehow I don't think that will happen. I hope I'm wrong.

I think you might be right, but perhaps I'm being overly pessimistic !!



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineBirdwatching From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 3818 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3948 times:

So if I lived in, let's say Saudi Arabia, would I be allowed to build a Christian cemetery or church?


All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21555 posts, RR: 55
Reply 11, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3940 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 2):
This is another group that has been afforded to many special rights. Again why should they have a Jewish only cemetery ( if that is the case there)

If we can live together then we should be buried together, IMHO.

That's a valid question, but if there are Jewish cemeteries in Switzerland, then there's little justification for Muslims to be denied their own cemeteries, so long as they can fund them on their own. The government should not be providing them, but they shouldn't be obstructing them either.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2829 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3923 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
That's a valid question, but if there are Jewish cemeteries in Switzerland, then there's little justification for Muslims to be denied their own cemeteries, so long as they can fund them on their own. The government should not be providing them, but they shouldn't be obstructing them either.

Yes that's a good point.

You see when you start making exceptions for one group, then the flood gates open for all and sundry to want this and that.

Makes it very hard to have a level playing field.



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlinetropical77W From Canada, joined Dec 2009, 65 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3793 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 7):
The only reason that i think of for Muslims in Switzerland are requesting there own cemeteries is that dead Muslims should be burried facing a special heading (East i think). This sometimes can not be done in other cemeteries.

its towards mecca, i believe.

this is another chapter in the saga that has been going on for decades now in europe. i'm not saying that either side is at fault, both have legitimate claims, but ultimately (in my eyes) swiss values, whatever they may be, have the upper hand. If their system of government calls for a republican style immigration/assimilation policy, then it can be argued that such cemetaries have no place in Switzerland.


User currently offlineafterburner From Indonesia, joined Jun 2005, 1209 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 3741 times:

Muslims should be buried on the right side of their bodies (not on their backs) facing towards Mecca.

User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3462 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 3714 times:
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Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
but if there are Jewish cemeteries in Switzerland

The answer is yes

Jewish Cemeteries in Switzerland from the International Jewish Cemetery Project http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/swiss.html



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2386 posts, RR: 21
Reply 16, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 3713 times:

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 10):
So if I lived in, let's say Saudi Arabia, would I be allowed to build a Christian cemetery or church?

Excellent point. Every time the muslims get their way in our part of the world, the same rules should apply in muslim countries for people with another religion there.

Also these kinds of problems will arise more and more often the more we let in.. I think the limit has been reached. We simply can't handle any more if the integration has to be succesful at the same time.

[Edited 2010-03-15 07:50:52]

User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8871 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3600 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 6):
I see. So what would the swiss muslims have to do, then?
Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 10):
So if I lived in, let's say Saudi Arabia, would I be allowed to build a Christian cemetery or church?

I defer to above question from Birdwatching. Exactly!



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21442 posts, RR: 54
Reply 18, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3599 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 17):
I defer to above question from Birdwatching. Exactly!

Switzerland is rightly held to a far higher standard than Saudi Arabia is.

Or are you advocating that relatively enlightened western countries should sink back to the dark ages as well, just because some others are still mired in them?

My question remains standing.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7873 posts, RR: 52
Reply 19, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3564 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 18):
Switzerland is rightly held to a far higher standard than Saudi Arabia is.

Exactly. We live in a free society (at least I used to think we did.)

There is all this talk of assimilation... what is wrong with diversity? It sounds like you all are being racist! Let them do what they want with their dead, if they were in charge and they said they'll cook everyone's dead would you just say "whatever, let them do what they want, we are assimilating," or would you say "this country Switzerland that I love and spent all my life in, I guess I have to move because I disagree with something," or would you say "surely in this democratic society they will let us honor our dead according to our religion since it's not harming anyone else."

What's the harm in letting them do this if they pay for it themselves? It sounds like yall are heading to a society where everyone is the same, how bland.



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8871 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3535 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 18):
Switzerland is rightly held to a far higher standard than Saudi Arabia is.

All the Western societies are held to a higher standard and that is our weakness that will possibly kill us. It is about time the Muslims bent, this goes far deeper than cemetaries, by the way, do we have anything to fear from Jews in Switzerland?



Or are you advocating that relatively enlightened western countries should sink back to the dark ages as well, just because some others are still mired in them?

See above. The Muslims have not changed so far, yet you advocate we always bend, not me. The dark ages are alive and well in many Muslim Societies, and we should adjust for them, naive in my opinion.

My question remains standing.

See answers above.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21442 posts, RR: 54
Reply 21, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3497 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 20):
See answers above.

You did not answer my question where swiss muslims were supposed to go "home" in your words to get buried. Switzerland is their home!

It is debatable what kinds of accomodations should or shouldn't be made by the general public on par to or beyond what other congregations get. But your demand that "they should go home" is disingenuous at best.


User currently offlineramzi From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 535 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3473 times:

I personally don't see the problem with them wanting their own cemetery. If its their belief that this is how it should be, no one should be stopping them. They are citizens of Switzerland that are as rightful as the non-Muslim Swiss to be buried in any way they please. Frankly it is a rather unreasonable request, but not a problematic one. They are offending no one, just asking for their own cemetery...


There will come a time when you believe everything is finished - that will be the beginning.
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2829 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3461 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 19):
There is all this talk of assimilation...

Dose not sound like assimilating to me if you have to bury your dead differently for the majority who live in that country!

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 19):
It sounds like you all are being racist!

Rubbish, don't start bringing up that BS. He is entitled to his opinion just as you are.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 19):
What's the harm in letting them do this if they pay for it themselves? It sounds like yall are heading to a society where everyone is the same, how bland.

How even handed where everyone would be treated the same with NO exclusive groups !
Sounds good to me.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 21):
It is debatable what kinds of accomodations should or shouldn't be made by the general public on par to or beyond what other congregations

And that's exactly what we are doing here, debating.



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21442 posts, RR: 54
Reply 24, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3447 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 23):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 21):
It is debatable what kinds of accomodations should or shouldn't be made by the general public on par to or beyond what other congregations

And that's exactly what we are doing here, debating.

That aspect would not be a problem, but xenophobic demands of basically having them expelled are an entirely different matter.


25 SOBHI51 : But if other religions are allowed there own cemetries then Muslims have the right to ask one for them. If you refuse that then there will be hints o
26 TheCommodore : As I said in my previous reply, I don't believe that Jewish groups should be allowed "special" cemetery's either ! You see, once you afford special r
27 SOBHI51 : The fact is they are allowed special cemetries, so i do not see anything wrong for Muslims to be treated the same.
28 TheCommodore : That my friend, is the difference between you and me then, because I believe it's wrong! We should all be together, not only in life but also when we
29 blrsea : Nope, you won't even be allowed to have a prayer hall to worship christ. Isn't it strange that muslims from all parts of the world, especially ones w
30 LOT767-300ER : I do not see anything wrong with building a big Cathedral in Riyadh and Jeddah. Let me share a word with you about the Middle East. hyp·o·crite  
31 Flighty : I agree. For example, if we had white people denying black people the right to be buried in their cemetery, that would be illegal in this country. It
32 Post contains images RussianJet : What on earth does that have to do with the situation in Switzerland?? You seem to imply that it is unfair that religious freedom is not accepted in
33 DeltaMD90 : It's their religion! I don't call it exclusive, so what, a mosque where only MUSLIMS worship should be banned as well? What is the big deal? Are you
34 Dreadnought : Let me put it another way: If mixing with non-muslims bothers you, move to a predominantly muslim nation.
35 RussianJet : So - either forgo your religious freedom or move away from your own country? Are you also applying that to Jews who want to be buried in a Jewish cem
36 TheCommodore : No I think what he is saying is that if its good enough to happen in Switzerland then its good enough to happen anywhere else. You cant expect others
37 RussianJet : In that case, maybe you could explain what precisely Swiss muslims have to do with what Saudi Arabia does? As for respecting others, I would imagine
38 TheCommodore : Sure I will explain. If its NOT ok for the same rights, (religious on not) to be afforded to non Muslims in Saudi Arabia, then why on earth should it
39 RussianJet : Because it is ridiculous to hold Swiss muslims accountable for standards in other countries. If I am a Christian I am in no way responsible for the p
40 TheCommodore : My answer stands, we are not just talking about religious freedoms, we are talking about mutual cultural respect in one another's countries
41 RussianJet : Then you have a very strange take on this. A Swiss muslim, born in Switzerland, is probably no more likely than you or I to bear any responsibility f
42 SOBHI51 : Neither do i really, i am sure it will happen one day. So two wrongs makes it right. Don't think so.
43 DeltaMD90 : Become a Muslim then! If someone really wants to be buried there, become a Muslim. Why do you care so bad that they have their own cemeteries? WHY WO
44 TheCommodore : The Muslim community in Switzerland accounts for about 4.5 per cent of the population. Most Muslim immigrants came from the former Yugoslavia and Turk
45 DeltaMD90 : Wow. Well I have nothing to say. I'm really curious, where are you from (Australia?), and do a lot of people agree with you? I hope the US never ever
46 Post contains images TheCommodore : Come on now, I never said you don't have the right not to do this or that ! Please read my post more accurately. I said it should no longer be exclus
47 SOBHI51 : Let me get this right. I a Muslim can go to Church or a Synaguogue and do my prayers there? Or vice versa? All in the name of embracing each other. I
48 DeltaMD90 : Well, that is better. I think religions should do that, but I don't believe they should be forced to. I at least see what you are saying, and I respe
49 TheCommodore : Why am I wrong, VERY wrong as you put it ? Why can't I respect your religion enough to go into a mosque and accept your values/traditions, or should
50 SOBHI51 : If you read what i wrote i mentionned praying and not coming in. As for accepting others religions let me just give a small grip of my background. I
51 TheCommodore : What has that to do with what I wrote to you in the last post ? I'm talking about accepting each others religion, and YES going into each others chur
52 SOBHI51 : With my experiences in life i do not think you can add nothing, so save it.. Good and i know how you think and i am not impressed. What i understand
53 Post contains images ramzi : He is agreeing with you, just saying that you should not conduct a prayer in the holy place of another religion. I don't think either end would want
54 SOBHI51 : I am just imagening me going to a Church in lets say Italy on Sunday and in the middle of mass i started shouting Allah Oukbar and started praying. U
55 Post contains links ME AVN FAN : The article (sorry, in German only) below shows that it already is solved http://www.vogt-la.ch/files/publikat...nen/2453.Muslimischer+Friedhof.pdf i
56 SOBHI51 : Can we get an idea of the resolution?
57 TheCommodore : If that is what you understand then you need an intensive course in the understanding of English! Did I ever mention anything about an wedding or a f
58 Klaus : Apparently a section of the community graveyard has been set aside for muslim graves, observing the specific cultural and religious requirements. Not
59 SOBHI51 : Why stop at praying? Either the whole deal or nothing. Very smart of you. I spent so many hours in a church and showed all the respect due. But seems
60 SOBHI51 : Excactely. Unless others wants to make it one.
61 TheCommodore : Really, why ? You are saying that because I didn't! Why is it very smart of me ? Oh because I caught you out twisting the facts of what I said? That
62 Mir : Which is fine. If there's not enough need for them in small cantons, then there's no need to build them. -Mir
63 SOBHI51 : So you do not know the difference between shouting and speaking loudly? Now i am confused. Who does not make sense? So you can mention the Pope but i
64 TheCommodore : Listen, Is that what you said or NOT It's your quote !!!!!!! Yes I did mention the Pope. Again I ask you, what does the IDF have to do with with we a
65 SOBHI51 : I answer what i feel deserve to be answered. not what you want me to. Simple, The Pope can pray at the wailing wall but IDF prevents Muslims from pra
66 TheCommodore : Thats being very selective and not in the spirit of the forum. Sorry I don't. Please go read what I said here. I was using the pope as an example. wh
67 SOBHI51 : Because what you say defy logic. And you changing positions from one thread to another is called what?
68 Post contains images TheCommodore : Because there about different things Otherwise there would only be one thread would
69 DeltaMD90 : TheCommodore, I think your initial stance in this topic was misunderstood. You had me confused for a while but later on I found out what your point wa
70 Post contains images EA772LR : Well said. The hypocrisy and the bull$hit is rampant!! No. The difference is the Muslims are wrong here. They can't have it both ways. Let them pray,
71 Klaus : There are native (or naturalized) citizens of Switzerland and of most other western countries who just happen to be muslims. They are already "in the
72 EA772LR : Let me clarify my position. I do not believe that anyone who moves to a country that is different culturally and/or theologically is entitled to the
73 RussianJet : So even if they have Swiss nationality you think they should have fewer rights than other Swiss? How about muslims born in Switzerland? Should they a
74 EA772LR : Tone down please. That's not what I said. Let me re-write this for you: Got it? Meaning that if you live in a country where the vast majority doesn't
75 RussianJet : Yes, I got it - and it still doesn't sound any better.
76 SOBHI51 : Look, they only requested a piece of land to bury their dead the Islamic way. If you follow the postings it was agreed that they will get that, nobod
77 Klaus : Yes, I understood you precisely. And I couldn't disagree more. That is not how a free country under the rule of law can behave. Special rights are no
78 LOT767-300ER : Perhaps we can also send them hot dogs and some good booze in the package?
79 SOBHI51 : I will take the hot dogs (beef only) as for the booze i will pass.
80 EA772LR : When did I say basic human rights are denied? I said there should be no 'special accommodation' for any minority in a country. If you don't like the
81 Post contains images LOT767-300ER : Dude I dont even care anymore. When I exported one of my Jeeps to Europe I just left the spare tire cover "Theres Only One" with a huge American flag
82 Post contains images EA772LR : Ha, well said. Just look in my profile pics to see what I feel about 'gun control'. This is true, but I was speaking more generally. Take you for exa
83 LOT767-300ER : Yea, I just try to apply that logic to there. We have many cemeteries here that are quite specific even in the name so I cant see why we cant have on
84 Post contains images Klaus : You seem to have deep-seated prejudices about muslims, as if none of them could be reasonable people who earned their own living and as if it was imp
85 Dreadnought : Not all Swiss cantons have Muslim cemeteries. Some of the bigger ones do, and as the article says, the bigger cantons also have muslim cemeteries. Th
86 Post contains images LOT767-300ER : In jr high school I was friends with this Muslim guy from India, he came over after school and I made hot dogs. He asked if they had Pork, I said no
87 Klaus : I have not made such a claim. I have said that as far as they want what others already have it would be unreasonable to deny it to them. There's also
88 Post contains images Klaus : You have my compassion for your dire suffering.
89 Post contains images EA772LR : How do you come to that conclusion? I've said nothing about Muslims that doesn't pertain to this thread which 'is' about Muslims. Again, how? You're
90 Klaus : Because you're making sweeping assumptions about every single muslim regardless of their actual individual differences which are flat out wrong.
91 SOBHI51 : I might agree with you if we are discussing matters like the Burka or even minarets, but what we are discussing here are cemetries. If others do have
92 Post contains images SOBHI51 : Seems Muslims now are in the same position. Will do the same
93 Dreadnought : They already have some in the larger cantons, just as Jews have. They are now demanding such cemeteries in all cantons- something no other minority h
94 ME AVN FAN : No, Muslims and Jews, at least in places like Zurich and Geneva, CAN pray and CAN get buried in accordance with their faith. There are Synagogues and
95 RussianJet : Name someone?? Are you serious? Don't be so ridiculous. You don't have to know people personally who think that way to know that with the popularity
96 Dreadnought : You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. I lived in Switzerland over 20 years, and I can promise that the Swiss are more than happy to ac
97 TheCommodore : Exactly, The Swiss are renowned world wide as being hugely tolerant people, as are the Dutch (although that seems to be rapidly changing) IMHO, regar
98 RussianJet : Is it really so difficult to grasp that some people believe otherwise? You want to be in a mixed graveyard? Fill your boots. Why do you want to force
99 TheCommodore : Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 97): once we are dead we're dead, end of story. Is it really so difficult to grasp that some people believe otherwise? You
100 Post contains images SOBHI51 : Just to clear my point, Islam now is facing a lot of pressure, hate, misunderstanding among other things,and yes it does exist in all over europ, Doe
101 Klaus : You're advocating dictatorial rule of the majority over all minorities, which are supposed to just be out of luck. Sorry, but that is diametrically o
102 LOT767-300ER : What the hell are you talking about? Read my (serious) replies in this thread.
103 TheCommodore : Diametrically opposed ! rubbish, that's how Governments are elected. And the party with the most vote wins. You might not like it but that's how it w
104 DeltaMD90 : Well it's their country, what do the Swiss think about all this? Easy for us from the US, Australia, Saudi Arabia, Germany, etc to say
105 Klaus : Sorry, but you seem to be in dire need of a refresher course on modern democracy. Majorities (usually) choose the government in a democracy – which
106 TheCommodore : Not at all thank you! Yes, again exactly what I'm saying Well NOT always, Governments are elected on certain platforms/policy's, and if elected they
107 WarRI1 : Is a modern Democracy not in danger after protecting minorities who want to destroy the same Modern Democracy. In the US which last I knew is a Democ
108 DeltaMD90 : You have a point. Should we segregate minorities like blacks, mentally ill, and gays just because the majority doesn't like them? Though I do see bot
109 Post contains images LOT767-300ER : We have people here who cannot distinguish the difference between a Republic and a Democracy. Good god. [Edited 2010-03-16 21:26:10]
110 RussianJet : The topic under discussion is the desire of muslims in Switzerland to be buried according to their religious custom in specific burial grounds, and s
111 LOT767-300ER : They should just do whatever the hell they want in Switzerland. But it sends the wrong message if they exclude minorities just because they are a min
112 TheCommodore : Well done, you just hit the bulls eye. Sometimes minority's in every society don't always get what they want/need/desire, even with Governments prote
113 Dreadnought : That's exactly what this particular Muslim group does not want. What's your point?
114 Mir : That's not what I got out of the article you cited. You make it seem like they want cemeteries to be provided for them everywhere, but the article so
115 Dreadnought : You are assuming that they offered to pay for it. Cemeteries are usually a communal investment. Seeing the type of group that made the complaint, it
116 sandroZRH : The funny thing is that nobody really seems to care about this here in Switzerland. I haven't even seen one newspaper article about it.
117 WarRI1 : Once again, Semantics, nothing else. Germany is a Parlimentary Republic with a Constitution. (Basic Law in English) The US is a Federal Contstitution
118 Post contains images WarRI1 : Well pardon me! I see now, you can preach, when we do not agree with your point, we rant, what a joke. The same old. My point and still is, when you
119 Centre : Amazing how so many threads in here are about how bad Muslims/ middle eastern people are, and how they should be treated and how backward and cultural
120 LOT767-300ER : Actually it is not, whereas if you referendum important changes to law (for example the Swiss Minaret Ban) the majority can oppose a law and it will
121 Post contains links WarRI1 : http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/govt2000.htm They are called Democracies, both of them. See link above. That is how I used the term for both, calling
122 LOT767-300ER : Yea, I bloody know they are both democracies, im not that daft. Im just saying they should just vote on it directly and be done with it.
123 WarRI1 : All I am doing is responding to the accusation that I did not know the difference between a Republic and a Democracy. See your words above. I used th
124 ME AVN FAN : I did NOT talk about governments in Warsaw, Berne, Washington, Cairo, Rabat etc, but referred to the one in Riyadh. YES, you in this thread have deve
125 DocLightning : Nothing is wrong with diversity, but it is a two-way street. Switzerland is not the U.S. Switzerland has thousands of years of being a European, Chri
126 SOBHI51 : Doc Do you know hoe many tens of thousand of Muslims are born outside the Muslim world? Those people are part of the society they were born in, so if
127 Post contains images TheCommodore : Well here it is for you. The VERY first post contained the article.
128 Klaus : No, sorry. That is just not the case. Antisemitism was a fixture of christian propaganda almost completely independent from actual behaviour of any a
129 Slider : Exactly right. But that's where the catch is--define "unreasonable" Klaus. If it requires more or dedicated land, added costs, etc, is that unreasona
130 Klaus : The swiss themselves don't seem to see a problem. On community graveyards provisions are made for any citizens to be buried; Preparing a part of the
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