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Obama Admits Health Care Could Be His Waterloo!  
User currently offlineDXing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4046 times:

Remember Sen. DeMint from South Carolina? Remember his comment last summer that if the GOP could stop President Obama's health care plans it would be his waterloo? Remember how the democrats went ballistic saying this just proved they (the gop) were only concerned with politics and not the people? Well it appears the President now agrees with Sen. DeMints comments after all, after first blasting the Senator last summer. Let's have a peek back at last summer shall we?

http://www2.canada.com/topics/news/story.html?id=1809667

"If we are able to stop Obama on this, it will be his Waterloo. It will break him," Senator Jim DeMint, a South Carolina Republican, told conservative activists.
Obama seized on DeMint's remarks as evidence the GOP's opposition is based less on disputes of the specifics of health reform but more on politics.
"This isn't about me," Obama said. "We can't afford the politics of delay and defeat when it comes to health care. Not this time, not now."


There was even a thread with the material as a topic:

Is The GOP Interested In Fixing Healthcare At All? (by StasisLAX Jul 21 2009 in Non Aviation)?threadid=2106820&searchid=2106820&s=+Obama+waterloo#ID2106820


Well guess what? 8 months later, with a single political parlamentarian trick left to pass his health care bill left which has not enjoyed public support for the same amount of time, the President is singing a different tune.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0310/34602.html


President Barack Obama had exhausted most of his health care reform arguments with members of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus during a White House meeting last Thursday when he made a more personal pitch that resonated with many skeptics in the room.
One caucus member told POLITICO that Obama won him over by “essentially [saying] that the fate of his presidency” hinged on this week’s health reform vote in the House. The member, who requested anonymity, likened Obama’s remarks to an earlier meeting with progressives when the president said a victory was necessary to keep him “strong” for the next three years of his term.
Another caucus member, Rep. Jose Serrano (D-N.Y.), said, “We went in there already knowing his presidency would be weakened if this thing went down, but the president clearly reinforced the impression the presidency would be damaged by a loss.”
Added Serrano: “He was subtle, but that was the underlying theme of the meeting — the importance of passing this for the health of the presidency.”


So after all the speeches, all the interviews, and all the rallies about how this is for the good of the nation and he is just a messenger blah blah blah, in the end it does comes down to him. So much for his comment a couple of weeks ago that he just as preferably be a one term President who gets something done. Just another reason to hold off spending what is now reputed to be 940 billion dollars.

What's more if you read the linked story, how much has changed in 8 months? Approval then was only 49%, just a few points higher than polls taken today. The cost within 10% of what it was last summer and covers less of the uninsured. Scrap this bill and start over!!! How long and how loud does the electorate have to say that to you Mr. President?

[Edited 2010-03-18 08:12:28]

151 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6546 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 1 day ago) and read 4028 times:
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Quoting DXing (Thread starter):
Remember how the democrats went ballistic saying this just proved they (the gop) were only concerned with politics and not the people? Well it appears the President now agrees with Sen. DeMints comments after all,

I don't see how it changes the perception that its a purely political battle for the GOP. The fact that The President agrees with the fact that this is critical to his Presidency - does not change the politics behind some (or most?) of the GOP not moving forward.

The point is to screw Obama - it always has been. He recognizes this..



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinefuturepilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 1 day ago) and read 4014 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 1):
I don't see how it changes the perception that its a purely political battle for the GOP. The fact that The President agrees with the fact that this is critical to his Presidency - does not change the politics behind some (or most?) of the GOP not moving forward.

The point is to screw Obama - it always has been. He recognizes this.

That's what I love the most about the GOP. Their willingness to play nothing but politics, doing whatever it takes to keep their party competing with the democrats, while not giving a shit about what happens to the American people. But then, they turn around and point out the fact that Obama does acknowledge that this bill could be huge for his presidency, and that ALL he cares about is politics and not the people. It's a double edged sword.

Quoting DXing (Thread starter):

So after all the speeches, all the interviews, and all the rallies about how this is for the good of the nation and he is just a messenger blah blah blah, in the end it does comes down to him. So much for his comment a couple of weeks

Wow, ignorance is bliss. After all the GOP has done to NOT help this country recover from the terrible situation we're in, you turn around and say that it's all about Obama and that he's selfish? Maybe you should take a look at the history of the American presidency and realize that ALL presidents are concerned with getting re-elected and are concerned about how they're viewed by the American public.



"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offlineUS330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3842 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 1 day ago) and read 3990 times:

Well, at least we know he can state the obvious.

Even someone who only occasionally follows U.S. politics since Obama's inauguration could tell you that the fate of his presidency (and his presidential legacy) depends on this health care bill passing. For better or for worse, Obama has put the majority of his political capital and his political efforts into getting this bill passed--it is his number one priority, by far--and he has basically put all his political legacy eggs in this one basket. Whether or not you agree or disagree with the bill (I'm personally opposed to the bill), all can agree on that.


User currently offlinearrow From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 2675 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 1 day ago) and read 3989 times:
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Quoting DXing (Thread starter):
Remember Sen. DeMint from South Carolina? Remember his comment last summer that if the GOP could stop President Obama's health care plans it would be his waterloo?

I don't disagree with what you've laid out, but what's the point? Eight months ago, Obama didn't think it would be his "Waterloo." Now he does. So what?

Too bad we can't go back into the records and see what Napolean's public statements were 8 months before he met Wellington on the field of battle. Or maybe even just the night before. Hindsight is always 20-20.

I don't think this is just Obama's Waterloo -- I think it might be America's Waterloo. Failure to get any kind of health reform moving, and get costs under control, will be a devastating blow, long term, to the US economy. Obama's package doesn't even come close, in my opinion, but at least it's movement.



Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11140 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 1 day ago) and read 3979 times:

Quoting DXing (Thread starter):
“essentially [saying] that the fate of his presidency” hinged on this week’s health reform vote in the House.
Quoting DXing (Thread starter):
He was subtle, but that was the underlying theme of the meeting — the importance of passing this for the health of the presidency

So, working off subtlety and innuendo (it is clear as the keyboard in front of me), the president needs to get this passed? I don't get it; when the right uses subtelty and innuendo, it is acceptable (It's what he didn't say) but when the left uses that lame excuse, it does not fly? This is a non issue. Unless you can quote me EXACTLY word-for-word where Obama said exactly that, this means nothing. It is hear say.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6546 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 1 day ago) and read 3975 times:
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Quoting US330 (Reply 3):
it is his number one priority, by far--and he has basically put all his political legacy eggs in this one basket. Whether or not you agree or disagree with the bill (I'm personally opposed to the bill), all can agree on that.

Right - and that's his prerogative (foolish or not - that's not the issue at hand) and the GOP would be stupid not to stop it at ANY cost.

As long as we are being honest here, does any one here see an upside of the GOP voting for ANY health care bill that Obama will ultimately sign?

It may include a project to clone Ronald Regan,and it would still get no votes - just because its Obama's baby.



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8045 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 1 day ago) and read 3971 times:

The Republicans' efforts to make this Obama's Waterloo has been clear for a long time. And it has been equally clear that in taking this road that the needs of the country took second place for the Republicans.

It's not unusual has commented on this situation - he's been attacked or months over his efforts to improve health care for average Americans and he hasn't backed down.

And it appears that there will be the last vote in the House on Sunday.


User currently offlineDXing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 3941 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 1):
The point is
Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 2):
Their willingness to play nothing but politics,
Quoting arrow (Reply 4):
but what's the point?
Quoting seb146 (Reply 5):
It is hear say.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 7):
that the needs of the country took second place for the Republicans.

It's called desperation. All the so-called explanations have not helped, all the pleas to just pass the bill and they will work out the kinks later have not helped, so now in the last desperate appeal, it now is about him. He's a hypocrite and an egomaniac.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 7):
And it appears that there will be the last vote in the House on Sunday.

They can say that all they want. If they had the votes to pass it they would have the vote today. It appears that two more "yes" votes switched to "no" votes today. The members of the House are finally starting to listen to their constituents.


User currently offlinefuturepilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 3935 times:

Quoting DXing (Reply 8):
He's a hypocrite and an egomaniac

Since you just looovee throwing all these words out there so much. Explain exactly how he's a hypocrite, and an egomaniac, and how that makes him different from any other politician in our gov't today.



"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 3919 times:

I think that idiot he picked as VP will be more of an issue. He better sew that guys mouth shut!

User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6546 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 3917 times:
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Quoting DXing (Reply 8):
It's called desperation. All the so-called explanations have not helped, all the pleas to just pass the bill and they will work out the kinks later have not helped, so now in the last desperate appeal, it now is about him. He's a hypocrite and an egomaniac.

Was this the point of your original post?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 3897 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 9):
Since you just looovee throwing all these words out there so much. Explain exactly how he's a hypocrite, and an egomaniac, and how that makes him different from any other politician in our gov't today.

It's fair to say that if you need an explanation as to how Obama is an egomaniac and hypocrite, then we should also explain how the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. It's about that clear.  
Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
I think that idiot he picked as VP will be more of an issue. He better sew that guys mouth shut!

No keep lapdog Biden's jaws flappin away! I love it when the guy talks...he's like Screech from the old Saved By The Bell show. Never knows when to zip it, and always causes some inward directed turmoil.

Quoting DXing (Reply 8):
The members of the House are finally starting to listen to their constituents.

My fingers are crossed. My question is, what will this do for Obama? If it passes, the electorate will have a catastrophic reaction in November, but if it fails (which I believe it will) then the electorate will likewise also turn their back on him. Obama and the Democrats are in a lose-lose position here. It's remarkable really. They've pushed their liberal agenda so hard, so fanatically, the American people are done with them. The best part about all of this, is the biggest backlash against Obama now are the Independents that supported him. Let me grab my popcorn, this ought to be action packed November!   



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlinefuturepilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 3882 times:

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 12):
It's fair to say that if you need an explanation as to how Obama is an egomaniac and hypocrite, then we should also explain how the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. It's about that clear.

Just answer the question and stop beating around the Bush. And also, explain to me HOW is he being an egomaniac and a hypocrite make him different than any politician, republican or democrat, that is in our gov't. If you can't answer these questions, then admit it and don't waste your time responding.



"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offlineUS330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3842 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 3866 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 13):
And also, explain to me HOW is he being an egomaniac and a hypocrite make him different than any politician, republican or democrat, that is in our gov't

Hypocrite: he promised transparency in government and making Washington more open and accessible to the people. Yet he's trying to get this bill passed using political stiff-arming. Polls have indicated that the majority of Americans are against this health care bill, and want him to focus on other issues of the economy, yet he still insists on it being passed.
When you have people like Bob Hebert of the NYT (someone who probably wouldn't even let his car turn right) criticizing you for missing the point, you know you've screwed up.

Egomaniac: The guy thought that people fell in love with him and that he'd be able to convince anybody that he's right, yet when its clear that his arguments are for naught, he still insists on getting it his way.

And no, he isn't any different from any other politician in D.C. He just happens to be the one with the highest stature.


User currently offlineGatorFan From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 331 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 3858 times:

If healthcare fails - Obama has failed. He's made it his biggest domestic issue. He's spent a year on it.

The closest parallel came in 1993, when a Democratic Congress was about to block Clinton's first budget, the deciding vote came down to 1 Democratic Senator changing his mind and voting for it. He famously spoke on the floor of the Senate saying "I cannot cast the vote that brings down this Presidency." The final vote was tied exactly 50/50 and the VP Gore cast the deciding vote in favor of it. The House passed the budget 218-216.

But even more importantly, if the House votes down this bill, Pelosi's Speakership will be over. The Speaker of the House has almost an iron fist in controlling debate. With such a huge majority, if she can't deliver health care she'll have been broken. My bet is that she'll find a reason not to run for re-election rather than be deposed as Speaker in the next Congress if health care fails.


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8045 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 3852 times:

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 12):
My question is, what will this do for Obama? If it passes, the electorate will have a catastrophic reaction in November, but if it fails (which I believe it will) then the electorate will likewise also turn their back on him.

If it passes (and I think there is a chance it will) the next questions are how it impacts people between Sunday and November. And the same for impacting people between now and the 2012 elections. Conservative are so sure that this is a horrible law that they will get caught with their pants down if it works for the voters.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 12):
Obama and the Democrats are in a lose-lose position here.

That assumes that by 2012 health reform hasn't improved the situation for a lot of Americans. The real risk for Republicans is that reform actually works once it gets started.


User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 3852 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 13):
Just answer the question and stop beating around the Bush.

First of all, the attitude of that 'his' agenda is the right thing to do, damn what the American public thinks. His constant using the words 'I' 'Me' 'My'. I've never seen a president use so many references about what 'He' wants. His arrogant attitude at his last official SOTU address. He didn't budge at all on his plans for Government Health Care and his Government Energy ala Cap and Tax, which are highly unpopular. He really believes all the hype and smoke that's been blown up his ass his whole political career. He's an average speaker who did some community service, and was a lawyer, as well as briefly served in political office for which he voted 'present' how many times and campaigned for how much of his Senate term?? He's a hypocrite because he's pulling the same shit he accused the Republicans of doing, except he's taken it to all new level. Where's the transparency? Why isn't Gitmo shut down? He accused Bush of deficit spending out of control, so what does he do-deficit spends more than all presidents before him by an order of magnitude more. Need I go on??

Did anyone watch the interview Obama did with Brett Baier? Obama dodged about every question and his rhetoric when asked about the 'deeming process' was appalling. I can't believe the POTUS would basically say on national TV 'he doesn't care how this bill gets passed, all that matters is that it's passed.' The contents are all that matters, forget the Constitutional process of passing bills.   



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineGatorFan From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 331 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 3845 times:

I think the absolute worst case scenario for Democrats is for health care reform to pass through the deemed pass maneuver and then the law to be overturned down the road by a court.

In such a situation, they'll bear the full wrath of voters this November AND eventually have nothing to show for it.


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11140 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 3845 times:

Quoting DXing (Reply 8):
It's called desperation. All the so-called explanations have not helped, all the pleas to just pass the bill and they will work out the kinks later have not helped, so now in the last desperate appeal, it now is about him. He's a hypocrite and an egomaniac.

"Desperation" is what the health care lobby and right-wingers were telling us at the beginning of the health care debate. Telling us that we were not filing bankrupcy to cover our medical bills and praying we wouldn't get sick because we were working two or three jobs just to put food on the table and give us a roof over our heads. "Desperation" is calling anyone to the left of so-called "Republicans" every name in the book instead of addressing the problem.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 3845 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 16):
That assumes that by 2012 health reform hasn't improved the situation for a lot of Americans. The real risk for Republicans is that reform actually works once it gets started.

It can't Ken. It's not slated to go into effect until 2013. Yet the bastards want to start taxing NOW. The voters will feel nothing but another government hand in their back pocket, and yet further expansion of the government's powers.

Quoting GatorFan (Reply 15):
But even more importantly, if the House votes down this bill, Pelosi's Speakership will be over. The Speaker of the House has almost an iron fist in controlling debate.

Her career is over anyway. I think she is 'taking one for the team' as it were. She knows how sick she makes people, and she knows that with her being at the front of this, Obama is using her as a political shield. She's done.



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineGatorFan From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 331 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 3834 times:

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 20):
Her career is over anyway. I think she is 'taking one for the team' as it were. She knows how sick she makes people, and she knows that with her being at the front of this, Obama is using her as a political shield. She's done.

I thought this from when the House voted on its bill in November until late last week. She literally had disappeared off the face of the earth. The party wouldn't let her open her mouth for all that time. However, she's now all over the place. I wonder if she thinks that by forcing through HCR she can save her Speakership.

I have liberal friends in San Fran who are telling me that she's getting abused on from both sides. The liberals feel she's a sell out and the right simply can't stand her.

Do you know of any Member of Congress who after being Speaker ever returned to serve simply as a representative? I can't think of any.


User currently offlinefuturepilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 3818 times:

Quoting US330 (Reply 14):

Thank you very much

Quoting US330 (Reply 14):
And no, he isn't any different from any other politician in D.C. He just happens to be the one with the highest stature

Which is exactly point. So why is EA772 and DXing pointing it out, when he's no different from any other politician? Hammering it home won't do a damn thing. What it comes down to is a political career and how long it can last, because everyone on capitol hill, could care less about this bill because when it comes down to it, they're all millionaires anyway. What happens in the bill has no effect on their family whatsoever and their ability to get healthcare. So stop pretending that Obama is the only politician with an Agenda that favors himself.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 17):
The contents are all that matters, forget the Constitutional process of passing bills

Personally, I believe the republican's selfishness when it comes to doing everything in their power to sabotage this health care bill is the real problem. If anything, they're just as un-American as you guys are saying Obama is. You people don't realize that this is a problem throughout the gov't, don't just point your finger at one person. No one gives a shit about the people, it ain't just Obama, and the sooner you realize that, the better.



"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 3792 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 22):
You people don't realize that this is a problem throughout the gov't, don't just point your finger at one person. No one gives a shit about the people, it ain't just Obama, and the sooner you realize that, the better.

No you don't get it pal. When Bush was president did you and your beloved Liberal comrades forget "that this is a problem throughout the gov't,"?? I'm glad that you realize Obama, and the rest of the morons in D.C. don't give a $hit about the people. But by proxy of him being the POTUS, and the Democrats having vast majorities he and they will naturally be the brunt of political anger, much the way the left treated (and still does   ) Bush.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 22):
What happens in the bill has no effect on their family whatsoever and their ability to get healthcare

Which is exactly why those pricks shouldn't be telling us what's good for us. I distinctly remember an idea for an amendment by a Republican that would have required members of the House/Senate to have the same health care that us peons have.   You see how far it went.



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineUS330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3842 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (4 years 1 month 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 3752 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 22):
So stop pretending that Obama is the only politician with an Agenda that favors himself

They aren't. I don't see them singing the praises of individual republican members for their honesty and integrity--it doesn't make their point any less valid or true by not specifically saying "Obama, like every other member of congress, is in it only for himself."

As far as I am concerned, they all need to be thrown out. Term limits for everybody in office.


25 qantas077 : meanwhile..the rest of the world sits back and laughs at how appalling the state of US health care is.[Edited 2010-03-18 13:58:35]
26 Slider : The tax increases begin immediately even though coverage won't begin right away. It will be cataclysmic if it passes, not only for the Demoncats who
27 Ken777 : Parts will take effect this year, within 90 days as I understand it. Pre-existing conditions for kids is one that hits in 2010. Having your kids on y
28 NIKV69 : Give it a rest Monty, I would take the US system over anywhere else and so would many others. We just don't believe we have to give half our paycheck
29 Post contains images EA772LR : Just read this...pretty funny, and pretty much true Let me get this straight. We're going to be gifted with a health care plan written by a committee
30 Post contains images Ken777 : How do you vote an oligarch into power? The House members go up each 2 years. The President every 4 years and Senators face the voters every 6 years.
31 FlyPNS1 : It's always funny that conservatives on this board believe that politicians should always just blindly follow whatever the polls say. What's really fu
32 qantas077 : that's about the size of it, when I had a serious car accident back in 2000 I paid nothing for expensive neurosurgery or the 2 years in rehab, same w
33 NIKV69 : The propaganda is getting old. I won't want to use a drug that the FDA hasn't looked into and I sure won't be flying to AUS to get it. Nice try tho a
34 futurepilot16 : Good thing you're ok then. If you lived in this country, and you were without insurance, if death wasn't imminent, they would tell you that without i
35 Ken777 : Basically our system is designed to cost twice as much as your in order to ensure profitability for health insurance companies. It also ensures that
36 qantas077 : well that's stating the obvious, Nick...nobody will be using a drug that the FDA hasn't looked in to, our system has the same stringent analysis befo
37 Post contains images Ken777 : Actually, if you don't have health insurance they would probably start talking to your family about an organ transplant. There is good money to be ma
38 Post contains links DXing : Two words, hope and change. As well as: "I don't take a dime of their [lobbyist] money, and when I am president, they won't find a job in my White Ho
39 Okie : That is why we should get to gather a special envoy to go to Haiti and other countries to get contributions to help with our "appalling" heathcare. O
40 FlyPNS1 : Did you actually look at those polls, they actually support what I said. USA Today/Gallup Poll. March 23-25, 2007. N=1,007 adults nationwide. MoE ±
41 Post contains images Baroque : Was is sacred FlyPNS1. But bugger your health. Just need to keep it the way it is with it being more expensive, giving higher mortality rates in some
42 CometII : It's over republicans/conservatives. And they deserve it. They can scream and shout all the way to Justice Roberts, but health care reform is gonna ha
43 Post contains images arrow : Maybe it's my 40 years of writing and editing, starting with manual typewriters and a blue pencil, but I never use spell check. I got used to proofin
44 PHLBOS : If they have the votes, then the House would have already voted for the Senate-approved bill and been done with it. Last time I checked (this morning
45 Post contains images arrow : Your missing the point here. War is a constitutional obligation written in stone by the founding fathers, who are of course imbued with that papal co
46 mt99 : So if someone decides that war to invade Canada is necessary - then everyone stand back and let it happen?
47 arrow : Well, I did put a little sarcasm smilie at the end of that -- much as it pained me to have to rely on it. I guess I needed to make the statement even
48 Post contains images Ken777 : Our medical care isn't appalling. The financial side of our medical system is appalling We have a policy of cash over care, where insurance profits a
49 seb146 : The right-wing is pissed off that the health care bill is not being paid for. But, if it is paid for, they are still pissed off. When a right-winger
50 DXing : I'm afraid they don't. You said: Then you pick the following polls to try and coborate that position: They wanted a time table and that poll was take
51 Slider : That's where you and I differ. I trust NO ONE in Washington to care for me. I want no help, I trust no one to make those decisions for me. I'm an ind
52 Baroque : Mmmm, might try and see if I can route my posts through you for Ed - bit of content would not go astray either mind you. I find my spelling abilities
53 FlyPNS1 : You're desperately looking for excuses. And what about in 2006, when conservatives were still in control of Congress and the White House? USA Today/Ga
54 qantas077 : and while we're at it, most of the small amount of detainees at GITMO are afforded better health care than some Americans...makes you wonder, and if
55 futurepilot16 : And where exactly in the bill does it say this? Or did you just take it from a recording of Rush Limbaugh?
56 Ken777 : The last time I wore anything close to chains & shackles was when I was serving in the Navy. Oddly enough THAT didn't bother me one little bit. T
57 arrow : Good effort, but you're wasting your time. DX will admit that Iraq was a mistake (which I suspect a majority of Americans have believed for a while n
58 qantas077 : I have had a rather unfortunate week with my back (disc prolapse) and since I had it operated on I have moved interstate, my uncle and cousin were my
59 AverageUser : So your insurance company has no such authority neither does it need one (a brilliant policy you have as well)? So how come it's apparently still leg
60 Post contains links arrow : Ditto for me -- but it's Canada. On Monday I'm off to the chemo clinic for my fifth (and if I'm lucky last) round of chemo for my leukemia. This is r
61 DXing : What about it? The majority said You can't add up the losers to say the winner didn't win. Doesn't work that way. If that were the case then Presiden
62 futurepilot16 : Shhhh, dude you shouldn't write that here. The righties on the thread might see it and call you a freeloader. According to them, anyone who sits back
63 arrow : Actually -- it does work that way in polling. Polling isn't an a election, it's an assessment of mood and opinion. And a majority is 50% plus one. Th
64 DXing : It makes it the majority opinion since the other opinions have little in relation to each other. There is an entire year spread between immediately a
65 Baroque : Now you mention MaS, wonder why the Dems have not run a series of ads about the health bill, using the photograph of MaS that he has on his posters a
66 seb146 : Here's what us patrotic Americans do: When the right gets control of Congress, keep the pressure on for health care reform. Keep rallying, keep callin
67 Ken777 : The right wing is about taking care of the insurance companies. If health reform passes Sunday, however, the Republicans face the issue of repealing
68 DXing : They've been serious and has been shown numerous times, were for passing many of the reforms in the bill. Also as has been shown, the democratic part
69 Ken777 : If the mandate is struck down there may well be changes, focused on single payer taxes as a movement to a single payer system. There may also be taxe
70 DXing : Since the legislation already calls for the outlawing of pre-existing conditions what company would there be to tax? Same with caps, coverages, and s
71 Ken777 : Discrimination for kids ends within 6 months IIRC, but adults get to wait until later - meaning that only part of hte ER crowd will be reduced. I wil
72 Post contains images TeamAmerica : Curious what you will call it now...with Health Insurance Reform almost certain to be passed this evening, and President Obama scheduling an event to
73 Post contains images Klaus : Well, maybe this was Obama's Waterloo after all – he just turned out not to have played the role of Napoleon in it after all! One needs to remember
74 Baroque : A fair point indeed. but how would you assess his role, a Wellington or more a Blücher? I would go for the latter, but really I find the whole thing
75 Post contains images Klaus : I think I've already flogged that poor analogy as far as it could ever go (or even beyond). And as much as I loathe Boehner, apart from the tactical
76 Post contains images Baroque : Ah, but does anyone know if he likes green wallpaper? However, that is never going to work in Ohio, down in Louisiana the bugs might have got going t
77 Post contains links DXing : Within 90 days of signing a high risk pool will be enacted. See page 45. http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...ong_bills&docid=f:h3590eas.txt.pd
78 Post contains images Klaus : If I only knew what has spurred that vicious imagination of yours...! Quote? In the statement I've seen him give after the vote he was explicitly and
79 Baroque : What a wonderful place is a.net On one thread, I can read that a set of changes that appear to be based in large part on GOP alternatives to the propo
80 DXing :
81 Klaus : Not really strong evidence in context.
82 DXing :
83 Klaus : Oh, come on. You were making a claim as if you actually had an official statement from Obama, but the president confidentially massaging a representa
84 AverageUser : Enclosed is something by the President that he kindly e-mailed me. I don't think he'd mind me posting it here. Friend -- For the first time in our nat
85 DXing : You can choose not to believe it if you wish, that does not make it any less true.
86 MoltenRock : This is what happens when you have this much money the American "ideal" government they tout so often. The electorate's incredibly short attention sp
87 Klaus : That getting healthcare passed was important for the Obama presidency is a no-brainer. Your claim that it was the main motivation for Obama still doe
88 DXing : That is not my claim. My claim was that last summer he was emphatic that is was not about him. After the election of Senator Brown and the apparent d
89 Klaus : Nonsense. Even while the priority was plausibly rather on getting a sorely needed piece of reform realized, of course such an undertaking would autom
90 santosdumont : Given the completely unhinged, menstrual reaction of the GOP -- which seems to have transmogrified from political party to screeching hare-brained ban
91 DXing : Nonsense is your continual attempt to try and portray the 180 degree turn of the President. When faced with the fact that the legislation was rejecte
92 Post contains images Ken777 : OMG! I almost wet myself over that one. I think I'll have that put on a plaque and send it to an ultra conservative friend of mine. And I even put yo
93 Post contains images KPDX : And the liberal circle-jerk continues...
94 Post contains links MoltenRock : Actually the extremely inaccurate Rastarded poll shows it at 54% these days, not 56% from back in Dec. But you as they too, fail to mention is that t
95 Klaus : Any major legislative campaign also affects the standing of the major players. Using that obvious fact in persuasion of dithering supporters is a no-
96 Post contains links and images DXing : So that's how your justifying a "no" vote these days? BTW only 3 of the 34 voting no were progressive. The rest are considered right of center. http:
97 santosdumont : Former GWB speechwriter David Frum already is logging the vote as a "crushing" defeat for his own party.
98 Baroque : Too early to tell who did which version of a Pyrrhic victory - that is who are which personae dramatis. Late Night live last night Philip Adams to Br
99 DXing : Not really, there are 30+ plus house seats where democrats are in serious trouble already and the election is still months off. Supposedly 'safe' Sen
100 arrow : Yeah -- but he's one of those commie/pinko/leftist Canadians ... at least that's how Rush would likely describe him. What does he know about true con
101 DXing : I find it interesting that at the signing ceremony the President is still having to sell the bill!!
102 Klaus : He used a different emphasis in talking with one colleague than the one he was and is using everywhere else. That is simply not a "180 degree turn",
103 AverageUser : It's the battle of the I-bars!
104 DXing : Last summer the bill was not abuot him. In the past 2 weeks, by his own admission, it became about him and his legacy. That is a 180 degree reversal
105 Post contains images Baroque : Oh, I did not know the election results were declared. Not in our papers yet. Here in open forum, and much as we all love Obama dearly, I challenge t
106 MoltenRock : Hey, it's hard enough to get anything done at all, much less major with all the money that drowns US politics. When you have a party that has gone of
107 DXing : For so many seats that are supposedly "safe" to be as close as they are at this point, those persons holding those seats are in serious trouble and t
108 Klaus : There never were any "death panels" in any draft of the bill. They were a complete fabrication by the GOP, heavily propagated by Limbaugh and Fox.
109 DXing : That they have never been there is a complete denial by the left in this country. The original House legislation called for "end of life" discussions
110 Klaus : Please produce a literal quote from the bill defining what you're calling "death panels". If you can't, you need to retract that claim.
111 DXing : The end of life discussions contained in the original House bill and the Presidents own words describe them. End of story. As usual you don't have to
112 AverageUser : Would you happen to have a reference handy?
113 Klaus : So you have no evidence for your claim since it is simply fabricated. I had thought so.
114 Post contains links DXing : As usual, you think wrong, but that puts you in line with most leftists. Of course I am still waiting for an explanation of your comment in another t
115 Post contains links AverageUser : Well, thanks anyway, Newt and Rush were not precisely my idea of a primary source, but I got there all right: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vid...
116 DXing : Which is exactly why I added: In the beginning he admits that a persons "spirit" should not be a determing factor which flies in the face of what the
117 AverageUser : I can only see and hear the current President saying he sees "end of life discussions" as belonging to the personal realm, if these were the original
118 Klaus : It was a qualified statement in an extremely fast-moving thread, not a bizarrely fabricated claim like yours. Contrary to you, apparently, my time is
119 DXing : With no proof whatsoever. My claim is supported by evidence, unlike your statement which had no supporting documentation. We all know how much you ju
120 AverageUser : Ant colonies actually go far .. spreading and living almost everywhere in the world! But as far as healthcare goes, having been subjected to socialie
121 DXing : I've met more than my fair share and they make their home in the bowls of the U.S. government.
122 FlyPNS1 : This will have to happen if we are to manage healthcare costs. You can have all the tort-reform and cross-border selling you want and it won't put a
123 DXing : The installation of a pace maker, which this woman needed, costs the same regardless of the individual. What you are really saying if you believe wha
124 AverageUser : Did not understand in case that was a joke of some sort.
125 FlyPNS1 : Rationing will become the norm, with or without this law. It's basic economics. Healthcare is a limited resource, where demand has been rapidly outst
126 Post contains links MoltenRock : And as it turns out, the cause of advance planning has been championed especially strongly by a pro-life Republican -- U.S. Sen. Johnny Isakson of Ge
127 Post contains images arrow : And that applies across the board whether you have a government-run system or a private sector run system. This is the part of the argument against s
128 Post contains images DXing : Should have read bowels. Not as long as free market rules and the laws of supply and demand are in force. It is absolutely the point. With a free mar
129 FlyPNS1 : What do you think will happen if the free market keeps driving prices upward? Eventually, many people will be priced out of the market preventing the
130 DXing : Take a look at the housing market. The same rules apply. Supply and demand demands that if there is less demand the price drops till it meets up with
131 MoltenRock : LMAO! As if Average American, Paul or Penny Patient can successfully "hold a multi-billion $$$ insurance behemoth to a contract" while they are sick
132 MoltenRock : LOL! So I suppose that in the 103rd Congress, on November 22, 1993 when Republicans Orin Hatch, and Chuck Grassley introduced a bill which they were
133 Klaus : My statement: "A stable health care environment is one of the bases of a sound economy. (Among other things not having to worry about health insuranc
134 DXing : In your opinion, nothing more. Again, in your opinion, nothing more. Why, you've brought nothing save an ability to paraphrase, and badly at that. Th
135 FlyPNS1 : No, they'll just cater their business to the very wealthy. There are already doctors who do this and more are heading down that path. Healthcare will
136 Post contains links AverageUser : Perhaps this site is all phoney? Behind the scenes Rescinding an individual’s health insurance is, unfortunately, a common practice. It’s usually
137 Baroque : Getting back to the Waterloo, in the short term, it now appears (according to someone close to the action) that following the signing, no asteroid str
138 Post contains links arrow : Well, not quite Baroque. A former Bush speechwriter (a Canadian) is also using the Waterloo analogy -- but in reference to the Republicans. He just g
139 Baroque : Not to joke Arrow, many of the Neo cons started as virulent commies, much more so that the lefties they now rail against. But nice to see he has a Wa
140 Post contains images AverageUser : With Orson Welles enlisted, this one can't be seriously bad?
141 Post contains images OA412 : Speak for yourself. I trust the government, which I elected and which I can remove from power if they don't live up to expectations, far more than a
142 Post contains links DXing : Then if they live and work in podunk USA they'll go broke. And the vast majority of them live in major metropolitian areas where there are enough wea
143 AverageUser : Marvellous everyday occurrences, DX! First you plead widely for any sources, and then suddenly find they've been under your a** all along!
144 DXing : They were under yours as well, we call that lazy over here.
145 FlyPNS1 : People can move/retire/change careers. No surprise that there is already a shortage of doctors in most rural areas and small towns.
146 DXing : Not in Texas. Thanks to our tort reform small communities that didn't have health care centers prior to its passage now have them. Besides, why would
147 Post contains images Ken777 : It is not polite to reply to the flappings of a conservative with a simple, logical statement. Especially if you are a "foreigner". Again. let's not
148 Post contains images Klaus : I apologize for my intransigence. I'm not so sure – they just insisted on ramming their heads against the wall instead of simply asking for directi
149 Post contains links DXing : Yep, her and her buddies are just flying high in the approval ratings. Really? http://news.yahoo.com/s/rasmussen/20...smussen/healthcarerepeal2010032
150 MoltenRock : Yeah, isn't it amazing that once the rhetoric by FOX is gone because they have gone "off the air" on the healthcare bill, and only will talk about ot
151 Baroque : David Brooks was certainly not very bullish on the position the GOP has plonking itself on the Lehrer Newhour this week. I was a bit abstracted doing
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