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Health Care Reform Passed (Part 2)  
User currently offlinestarac17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3400 posts, RR: 9
Posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5872 times:

To continue the thread:

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 318):

So the essence of what you are saying is that the taxpayer should foot the bill for those who will never reach that level of wealth (which, you admit, is the vast majority). Even if tax receipts could cover all those costs, which I doubt they could, I think you would find that when you became liable, you (and the government) would balk at paying out the kind of physician compensation that the best hospitals do.

What a single payer system is defined as is precisely that, you pay additional taxes to spread the risk across the entire population and in turn the government pays the doctors the costs directly of your treatment but doesn't meddle in the relationship with you and your doctor. In turn the system is price regulated to control costs and a doctor gets the same amount per patient they see, also everyone rich or poor has access to the system to use as they feel.

It serves as the same function as a insurance company (where you pay for others as well) except the government has a responsibility to the people at large whereas an insurance company has a responsibility to its shareholders.

Now a skeptic of this system would say that it would get abused by the common man but the reality is that people don't like to see their doctor regardless if they have to pay or not. However the luxury of being able to see a regular GP over going to the ER when you need care is a huge reason why other industrialized countries have a lower cost structure associated with health care.

Canada has to make a decision to have private general health care allowed which would mean that we have our public system as well as a private system which would allow the rich to pay cash and skip the line.

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 318):
You assume, which is your right to do, that the "we" perspective is better than the "me." On its face, I would agree that the "we" seems and feels better. I truly think it leads to ruin in both theory and practice. You confuse a rational "me" perspective with irrational greed. I would argue that is mistaken.

I see the "me" perspective as a lot like what I see in this video here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFOnG9a1Pzw

I feel we are obliged to help people out when we have the means to and I don't think this man in the video had any control over his condition and needs to have the help available to him so he can live his life. Healthcare is one of those things it would be nice to take on a case by case basis to see who deserves to be helped based on their lifestyle but that isn't easy because so many factors are out of a persons control.

However I agree 100% that we shouldn't bail out people that have been irresponsible with money, their jobs etc and I was very opposed to those Wall st. and Bank bailouts.

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 318):
So why can't we focus on measures that will lower costs, make insurance companies more competitive and accountable, and provide a safety net for the most extreme cases? That seems much more sensible than this elephantine mess.

It is much more sensible and a public option would have made a huge step into making insurance companies far more honest as well as being able to reduce costs by fueling competition, same with pulling anti-trust exemptions. Insurance companies don't want any competition be in an non-profit corporation or the government.

Also with the huge distrust of the government by Americans plenty would have stayed put with their private insurance out of fear so a public option would have not destroyed the insurance industry.

Also this is a very similar situation that is an issue in Ontario, Canada and it has to do with auto insurance. Not as important but all insurance runs the same.

Basically the issue is that most auto insurers in Ontario are sold by banks that have lost money in the economy in the past 2 years. So in order for them to get their return they have hiked the premiums of all drivers and not just the bad ones and the public know they are getting screwed. This has made a public option for this on the table because we are tired of being screwed by for profit insurance in it just to make money.


Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
265 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 9192 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5855 times:

Quoting starac17 (Thread starter):
Basically the issue is that most auto insurers in Ontario are sold by banks that have lost money in the economy in the past 2 years. So in order for them to get their return they have hiked the premiums of all drivers and not just the bad ones and the public know they are getting screwed. This has made a public option for this on the table because we are tired of being screwed by for profit insurance in it just to make money.

That is what is needed, a public option, there and here, at least in Canada it is auto insurance, not health insurance where profit is wrung out of sickness and misery.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13699 posts, RR: 61
Reply 2, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5827 times:
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Quoting Mt99

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 308):


One's in the Constitution and one isn't? How about that for starters?


So its in the constitution to attack Canada too.. Lets go for it!



Stop being ridiculous. You know the difference, and that is that national defense is explicitly addressed in the Preamble to the Constitution whereas public healthcare and/or mandating the purchase of ANYTHING are not.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineSpeedbird741 From Portugal, joined Aug 2008, 654 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5790 times:

Here is some case law for you all:


"The Supreme Court rarely declares laws unconstitutional for violating the Tenth Amendment. In the modern era, the Court has only done so where the federal government compels the states to enforce federal statutes. In 1992, in New York v. United States, 505 U.S. 144 (1992), for only the second time in 55 years, the Supreme Court invalidated a portion of a federal law for violating the Tenth Amendment. The case challenged a portion of the Low-Level Radioactive Waste Policy Amendments Act of 1985. The act provided three incentives for states to comply with statutory obligations to provide for the disposal of low-level radioactive waste. The first two incentives were monetary. The third, which was challenged in the case, obliged states to take title to any waste within their borders that was not disposed of prior to January 1, 1996, and made each state liable for all damages directly related to the waste. The Court, in a 6–3 decision, ruled that the imposition of that obligation on the states violated the Tenth Amendment. Justice O’Connor wrote that the federal government can encourage the states to adopt certain regulations through the spending power (i.e., by attaching conditions to the receipt of federal funds, see South Dakota v. Dole), or through the commerce power (by directly pre-empting state law). However, Congress cannot directly compel states to enforce federal regulations."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenth_A..._to_the_United_States_Constitution



Boa noite Faro, Air Portugal 257 climbing flight level 340
User currently offlineJeremy From United States of America, joined May 2001, 668 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5641 times:

No doubt we needed reform in this country.
However, in my opinion, it's not the right time for it.
People are losing their jobs and homes and more debt is not what we need to fix it. Getting people back to work should be number one.

People are talking like we were doing surgeries in barns, by candle light, and using whiskey as anesthesia and now, presto---we have entered the modern world!

The USA has the best health care in the world and lots of Royals and wealthy people travel here to utilize it.
I said the best, not perfect though.
We are in poverty according to US standards. We're a family of three, making $20,000 a year so I have wealth envy as much as the next person. Regardless, it's the wealthy people who create the jobs. I have never worked for a poor person.

We do not have health insurance and are fine with it. We still see the doctor and dentist because there are options available for the uninsured.


As for the Republicans stopping progress....No, it was the Dems that had to be bribed into yes votes. The GOP was never on board.
With the 60 vote in the Senate, it should have been a done deal to pass a long time ago but their own party had big problems with the bill.

As I said, it was needed, just not now.



You are now free to be sexually harassed and then terminated for filing a complaint--Southwest Airlines to me.
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21495 posts, RR: 53
Reply 5, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5635 times:

Quoting Jeremy (Reply 4):
People are losing their jobs and homes and more debt is not what we need to fix it. Getting people back to work should be number one.

A stable health care environment is one of the bases of a sound economy. (Among other things not having to worry about health insurance when switching jobs and limiting the damage to entire families and their otherwise productive members when somebody is getting sick.)

Quoting Jeremy (Reply 4):
The USA has the best health care in the world and lots of Royals and wealthy people travel here to utilize it.

The reform was not about the wealthy, it was about the poor and middle class.


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7242 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5619 times:

The one big thing that comes to my mind is how non-bipartisanthis bill was. It was not even one sided 34 democrats voted NO!!!! If that does not say something is wrong with this bill I do not know what does. This bill was rushed I do not think there is much doubt about that. Some so large to not be bipartisan is a bit crazy IMO. Look at medicare, social security etc.. Most voted for it in both parties not just some in one.

Also when every doctor I know is highly against this bill I know that something needs to be wrong with it. This bill will have some good changes you cant argue that but I dont think this bill will be as great as everyone say it is and we all know it will end up costing a lot more then predicted



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5599 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5595 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 6):
The one big thing that comes to my mind is how non-bipartisanthis bill was. It was not even one sided 34 democrats voted NO!!!!

The bill was bipartisan...or I should say, opposition was bipartisan and parlimentary tricks and arm twisting and coercio had to be used to get it passed.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineslz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5517 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 7):
The bill was bipartisan...or I should say, opposition was bipartisan and parlimentary tricks and arm twisting and coercio had to be used to get it passed.

But in the end, all those against it, still were only a minority, so the bill passed: get over it. it's the will of a majority of the people's delegates. That's called democracy.

Quoting Jeremy (Reply 4):
The USA has the best health care in the world and lots of Royals and wealthy people travel here.

Like it allegedly also has the best schools in the world, if one is to believe many contributers to this forum? 

Reality is that whereas US healthcare is fairly good indeed, it's not top of the league by a wide margin still; maybe it is time to check UN global data on this to stop the flagwaving which is quite common from US posters.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ec...nd-economy-human-development-index

The USA is at number 10, topped by 8 European nations and Canada... all called 2nd Tier nations somewhere in the first part of this discussion.  Yeah sure

What's more, US heathcare is extremely expensive, far more than in all those countries topping the US....

The reason why you see so many rich people from developing nations come to the US for their healthcare is because countrary to the many European countries outclassing the USA on healthcare, the US system is a purely commercial enterprise where people can simply BUY themselves in. You just can't do that in most places in Europe, no matter how big a check you are willing to write...

[Edited 2010-03-23 08:58:30]

User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8220 posts, RR: 26
Reply 9, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5499 times:

Well while everyone argues in circles again, the real criminals are still running away with the game. The real nonsense in all this is that both halls of Congress have utterly failed the issue, REPEATEDLY. Medical COSTS are what's killing everyone, whether the insurance system is public, private, a hybrid or whatever. Why should doctors spend the time and money going through 12 years of schooling only to have to order every CYA test under the sun on the off chance someone complaining of a headache has a 1 in 250,000 fatal brain lesion? Why haven't either side of the aisle put an end to mindless tort abuses? Why haven't the insurers rallied to that same cause? Answer: fleecing the public is good for all concerned, except the patient, doctor, and those eventually footing the remaining bills. We are slaves to this particular brand of greed, and every last member of Congress is too CS to do anything about it. They're laughing all the way to the bank while everyone fights over the wrong side of the issue.


If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineCometII From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 302 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5457 times:

I said this before and now some in talk radio are picking it up: conservatives need to blame themselves if they don't like the bill.

They whistled in the wind for years and years since 1994 to 2006.... 12 years of holding congress and they NEVER made health care a priority. Everyone agrees costs have been spiraling out of control, and they did nothing. Quite simply, they didn't care (since they had their nice little congressional health care).

I don't like many aspects of the bill, but the Republican sudden ''concern'' over the huge cost and coverage problem they displayed in the last 14 months was a complete show and stroke as toally fake.


User currently offlineBoeing1970 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5455 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 5):
A stable health care environment is one of the bases of a sound economy.

A stable employment environment is the basis of a sound economy. Any progress in the last 12 months just got derailed.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 5):
The reform was not about the wealthy, it was about the poor and middle class.

So why are the "wealthy" (because $250k a year is not wealthy by any stretch these days) carrying the brunt of the cost? Why are 7 million of them still going to go without insurance?

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 9):
Why haven't either side of the aisle put an end to mindless tort abuses?

Because most of the politicians are lawyers.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 9):
Why haven't the insurers rallied to that same cause?

Because they keep the lawyers in business too.

[Edited 2010-03-23 09:51:16]

User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8419 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5455 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 2):
You know the difference, and that is that national defense is explicitly addressed in the Preamble to the Constitution whereas public healthcare and/or mandating the purchase of ANYTHING are not.

The focus on the constitution is interesting.

Looking at a topic like, say, Law, the Founding Fathers had significant understanding and experience in this area and it is will covered in the Constitution. The use of British Common Law as one of our legal foundations is a pretty good demonstration of a reliance on what they had been exposed to in their lifetime.

So, what was the status of medicine in the days the constitution? Were they still bleeding people to "cure" them?

The Founding Fathers didn't address medicine or health care because it was basically a non-issue in those days. Therefore Medicine was one of those issues that have to "fit" under other areas or topics of the Constitution, just like NASA does.

Medicine does fall under the General Welfare, it is only the degree that differs between parties, or wings in a party. One only has to think of various plagues over the years, or medical conditions, like polio, that spread throughout the country, but was addressed and preventive medicines distributed with government funding.

Quoting Jeremy (Reply 4):
However, in my opinion, it's not the right time for it.
People are losing their jobs and homes and more debt is not what we need to fix it. Getting people back to work should be number one.

I was watching the news this morning to see the signing. When discussing "benefits" of the bill the first benefit noted was the tax CREDIT to smaller companies. I had forgotten that one, but when you look at small companies to expand their workforce this credit can help them add workers and pay for their health insurance.

For people loosing their jobs, or their insurance because of the high costs of insurance, this is a good step.

For those with pre-existing conditions, or are going through major medical treatments, this is a good step.


User currently onlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5347 posts, RR: 25
Reply 13, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5431 times:

Quoting CometII (Reply 10):
2 years of holding congress and they NEVER made health care a priority.

Exactly. We keep hearing about how the GOP was always for removal of pre-existing condition clauses, etc. yet they have ample opportunity to do something about it and didn't. Why is that?

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 11):
So why are the "wealthy" (because $250k a year is not wealthy by any stretch these days) carrying the brunt of the cost? Why are 7 million of them still going to go without insurance?

You're not suggesting that a wealthy person being without health insurance, is without it for the same reasons that a poor person is without health insurance are you?



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineBoeing1970 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5421 times:

Quoting OA412 (Reply 13):
You're not suggesting that a wealthy person being without health insurance, is without it for the same reasons that a poor person is without health insurance are you?

No. Where did you draw that conclusion from?

1. $250k a year is not wealthy, not where I live. Not even close.
2. If I'm going to pay more taxes - double my medicare taxes that I'll never use by the way, then why are 7 million still left out of the system?


User currently offlineAverageUser From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5424 times:

Quoting starac17 (Thread starter):
It serves as the same function as a insurance company (where you pay for others as well) except the government has a responsibility to the people at large whereas an insurance company has a responsibility to its shareholders.

      Healthcare under democratic control, by the people, for the people!

Quoting slz396 (Reply 8):
What's more, US heathcare is extremely expensive, far more than in all those countries topping the US....

I would say U.S. healthcare comes from another planet altogether. Decades of systematic neglect, I'd say.

[Edited 2010-03-23 10:19:38]

User currently offlineBoeing1970 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5390 times:

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 15):
I would say U.S. healthcare comes from another planet altogether. Decades of systematic neglect, I'd say.

Is that why you buy up all of our technical advances to use in your healthcare system without the investment in research and development?


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21495 posts, RR: 53
Reply 17, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5387 times:

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 11):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 5):
A stable health care environment is one of the bases of a sound economy.

A stable employment environment is the basis of a sound economy. Any progress in the last 12 months just got derailed.

As far as I'm aware it has become more affordable and more predictable to have your employees covered with health insurance (either by the employer or separately).

This will mean less trouble with health coverage and at least in total lower health-related risks related to your employees. (Health issues getting treatment before they get so bad that they affect the company.)

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 11):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 5):
The reform was not about the wealthy, it was about the poor and middle class.

So why are the "wealthy" (because $250k a year is not wealthy by any stretch these days) carrying the brunt of the cost? Why are 7 million of them still going to go without insurance?

In the dual system in Germany I have chosen to use the public insurance option (it would be mandatory if I was in a regular employee position, but being self-employed it's optional). I'm paying the same percentage of my income to the insurance as somebody with lower income does. In total I will pay more as long as my income remains higher. And lower-income families, for instance, have it easier to get coverage because part of their cost is cross-subsidized by others.

Should I some day not be able to sustain my income level any more, my insurance premium will be adjusted downwards as well. And it does not depend on my health – should I get sick more often when I get older, my premium will remain unaffected (while it usually rises progressively with advancing age in a private insurance).

In my more productive and more healthy years I have certainly paid more than I used, but if the tables may have turned one day I would still have decent coverage if I actually needed it and if I might have a problem affording rising premiums otherwise.

From my point of view this is a pretty good deal all in all, particularly in the long term.

I call it solidarity — you may call it socialism but it actually works pretty well in real life.

Of course drug pricing and many other problems affect our health system as well, and further reforms will still be necessary as we go, but the fundamental principle is sound and attractive.


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8220 posts, RR: 26
Reply 18, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5386 times:

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 16):
Is that why you buy up all of our technical advances to use in your healthcare system without the investment in research and development?

Look, if you're going to throw this stuff around, you need to at least be informed about the field. If you're talking about R&D for pharmaceuticals and university hospitals pioneering treatment methodologies that's one thing - but technology alone is quite another. Two of the largest providers of medical imaging equipment in the world are Philips and Siemens - and neither are American corporations.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineBoeing1970 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5376 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 18):
Look, if you're going to throw this stuff around, you need to at least be informed about the field.

Don't get all spun up. It was in response to this comment:

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 15):
I would say U.S. healthcare comes from another planet altogether. Decades of systematic neglect, I'd say.

He's probably never been in a US hospital, much less the US and he says we've had decades of neglect? Really?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 17):
As far as I'm aware it has become more affordable and more predictable to have your employees covered with health insurance (either by the employer or separately).

We didn't have a health care insurance problem until wage controls were put in place by the government during WWII. That is when the healthcare insurance problem began in the US. In lieu of compensation, benefits packages were offered. Then lower cost services became limited to those with benefits and the spiral began. Prior to that, people just had catastrophic insurance and paid out of pocket. Costs never grew exponentially because they couldn't get the money out of a consumer like they could from an insurance provider.

[Edited 2010-03-23 10:38:08]

User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 17
Reply 20, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5370 times:

Biden say's it best .... just in case the President didnt quite get it yet. Biden quote: " This is a Big Fu**ing deal"

turn your volume up ..its priceless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQeNikp1Rj8



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineAverageUser From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5351 times:

Quoting Boeing1970 (Reply 16):
Is that why you buy up all of our technical advances to use in your healthcare system without the investment in research and development?

Actually, it's very often the other way round. The U.S. companies buy advances in another countries (often funded from national budgets). One of those Finnish inventions from my city is now here (ex-Bionx Implants, since 2003)
http://www.conmed.com/products_knee_fixation.php

If I may add, the medical faculties here also pay the going price for all American intellectual property, which I suppose will in part cover the R&D expenses.

.


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5599 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days ago) and read 5350 times:

Quoting slz396 (Reply 8):
But in the end, all those against it, still were only a minority, so the bill passed: get over it. it's the will of a majority of the people's delegates. That's called democracy.

I understand how a democracy works. Your wording was absolutely correct and I'm guessing very well chosen because the will of the people was ignored.

Quoting CometII (Reply 10):
12 years of holding congress and they NEVER made health care a priority

You may be correct here. Was tort reform floated? Insurance reform (since this is what this is) put on the table? How about addressing acces for those that truly have a problem with access? I don't know, I think I 've heard somr of that stuff over the years.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 17):

I call it solidarity

Yup, we all wind up in the same leaky POS boat together. Mediocrity.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlinemrocktor From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1671 posts, RR: 49
Reply 23, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days ago) and read 5349 times:

Quoting slz396 (Reply 8):
That's called democracy.

Also known as tyranny of the majority. That is why America is not a democracy, but a constitutionally limited republic. Or used to be. The fact that you don't get that distinction is the root of the disagreement.

In a constitutionally limited republic there are things you don't get to do - even if you are a majority. Kill people. Take people's things against their will. Force people to act in ways they do not want.

To you, though, doing the second two of those is fine if 50.0001% of the rest of the people agree with you. Unsurprisingly, regimes that embrace this principle eventually start doing the first one too.

[Edited 2010-03-23 10:56:36]

User currently offlineBoeing1970 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days ago) and read 5349 times:

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 21):
Actually, it's very often the other way round. The U.S. companies buy advances in another countries (often funded from national budgets). One of those Finnish inventions from my city is now here (ex-Bionx Implants, since 2003)
http://www.conmed.com/products_knee_fixation.php

If I may add, the medical faculties here also pay the going price for all American intellectual property, which I suppose will in part cover the R&D expenses.

So you haven't been here or in any of our hospitals then. Leaving you with absolutely no basis for your comment:

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 15):
I would say U.S. healthcare comes from another planet altogether. Decades of systematic neglect, I'd say.

Thank you for confirming that which I assumed to be true. Now kindly keep your comments to yourself about the quality of our medical care here in the US. Care which you know nothing about other than overstated media reports and political propaganda.

[Edited 2010-03-23 10:57:40]

25 Klaus : With everybody in the same boat, there's actually a lot more incentive and political pressure to not have it be a "leaky POS". And in most civilized
26 Klaus : The problem is not with the hospitals as such but with who can get treated there and what it does to their economic survival, especially for middle-c
27 AverageUser : I know for a fact the public healthcare here will pay the American firms every cent they may charge for the use of their intellectual property. If th
28 Post contains links EA CO AS : The problem with your theory is the General Welfare clause in Article I Section 8 is merely an introduction to the enumerated powers that follow and
29 slz396 : And how do YOU know what the will of the people is? By opinion polls, or street interviews on Fox news? Look, let's get real here for a minute, shall
30 Boeing1970 : What does cost have to do with it? Its your life. You can't put a dollar figure on that. Cost is irrelevant. Besides, no one is denied medical treatm
31 OA412 : So is this the argument that we're now going to use to defend the insurers and justify the fact that healthcare costs in this country are out of cont
32 AverageUser : Ok, ok, I just thought I heard people complain about the "high cost" of this program somewhere. You might want to have a word or two with them then s
33 AGM100 : Do the idiot democrats have to make a racial issue out of everything ! Whats with all the civil rights movement veterans being made the face of this r
34 Boeing1970 : People always complain. They complain about the cost of housing and cars too. Does that mean I should help them buy a house and a car? Amazing how lo
35 slz396 : Seems like you have a lot of reading to do: it would definitely do you well to look beyond the borders of the USA to see there's a whole world out th
36 AverageUser : That's entirely your choice. There are charities, I suppose.
37 BMI727 : And levels of taxes. But healthcare no longer is.[Edited 2010-03-23 11:35:33]
38 AverageUser : Real men can take it. Just look at me for instance, do you see me crying?
39 Boeing1970 : Who needs to read when you can travel and see for yourself? Maybe you should come visit the US and see for yourself rather than read. And I don't mea
40 slz396 : ROTFL That's actually a very good summary of the US healthcare system: Not better, but far more expensive! Want to make a guess why? Because it's ext
41 slz396 : There's no such a thing as a free lunch. However, the more insured, the lower the risk, and thus the lower the premium, so I really fail to see why a
42 Boeing1970 : Good. Then you know how vastly superior our medical services are.
43 Post contains links and images johnboy : http://www.courier-journal.com/artic...rable+view+of+new+health-care+plan Interesting new poll.
44 slz396 : Tenth best according the the UN, behind no less than 7 European nations amongst which mine, so superior to just what or who, if I may ask you? Mexico
45 BMI727 : I have no problems paying for my lunch, but everyone else's as well? I would hope so, but I am skeptical at best. And if all the savings are offset b
46 Yellowstone : Of course we can do those things. For example, the death penalty, taxes, and mandatory education, respectively. All perfectly consistent with a const
47 Post contains images slz396 : That's where I agree with you... for as long as this mechanism is left in the hands of private insurance companies, it isn't very likely they will fu
48 Post contains images BMI727 : Not really. It depends a lot on where you are, but for the most part in America having a family income of $250k per year is a comfortable middle clas
49 mt99 : Is it based on "income" or "taxable income"?
50 FlyPNS1 : $250K is way beyond middle-class....unless you have like 8 kids. The average American household only lives on about $45K. As Yellowstone points out,
51 Post contains links DXing : Then I guess you'll have to explain why the German unemployment rate has hovered between 5.9% and 10.8% for the past 20 years. http://portalseven.com
52 Boeing1970 : Maybe in Pensacola it is. Large metro areas, not so much. I left LA a few years ago and at the time the average cost of a house was getting to the $7
53 AverageUser : As it happens, was GWB elected by a majority of the peoples' votes in 2000?
54 FlyPNS1 : Sorry, but Los Angeles certainly doesn't represent the majority of the United States. I live in the Washington, DC metro and a household making $250K
55 Boeing1970 : Different issue. Electors are not legislators. Legislators have an obligation to those who elected them. Those who elected them were even telling the
56 AGM100 : Your right ... and that is what may well happen. Another point if I may .... since when is spending $950 trillion dollars sold to us by claiming a $1
57 mt99 : Again. isnt it the limit $250k taxable income - after deductions?
58 AverageUser : Both the electors and the legislators are in a perfectly similar position. They are independent to vote how they please, but answer to their voters f
59 Post contains links Boeing1970 : • The Medicare payroll tax will increase from 1.45 percent to 2.35 percent for individuals earning more than $200,000 and married filing jointly ab
60 qantas077 : yeah, because they can afford it...understand the crux of the issue now? well reading about how bad the state of the system is by Americans themselve
61 Ken777 : Don't kid yourselves. There has been a huge amount of medical advances outside the US. We didn't invent the total hip, cpaps, etc. There are actually
62 Flighty : That's actually false; doctors refuse to see patients who do not pay, for routine check-ups. Some also refuse to see medicare patients. Furthermore,
63 Ken777 : And some people get bad medicine. Bad doctors who should be kicked out of the profession. I'll trust a jury in this civil court action, just like I t
64 DXing : And they won't be able to buy health insuance at any discounted cost then. No they are not. Electors are appointed by the State legislators, not elec
65 Boeing1970 : Please stop trying to lecture us on the structure of our system of government. You're flat out wrong. So just stop already.
66 JakeOrion : I would like to read the signed bill but I can't find it anywhere. Anyone know where I can download it from? And I'm not talking about H.R. 3962 of Oc
67 Post contains links and images AirframeAS : 12 State Attorney Generals are suing the Federal Government. They don't like how the government will require each and every citizen in this country mu
68 Post contains images starac17 : A Canadian doctor co-discovered insulin That's perfectly fine that you don't want the government making decisions about your health care but you must
69 Post contains images Ken777 : Wrong. I just have no interest in being a lapdog for the insurance companies, believing all the crap they put out. There are a lot of good profession
70 Post contains links Speedbird741 : Maybe its time for you to start refining your research. This all from the OECD and UN international health organization. The US stands in fith place
71 WarRI1 : The new Gallop Poll out today, Is the health reform a good thing? Yes 49% Is the health reform a bad thing? Yes 40% Hmmm. Is the worm turning?
72 Post contains images WarRI1 : A quote from Senator Whitehouse (D)R.I. On the Chris Mathews Show tonight. This statement is about how the Healthcare Reform Discussion was conducted
73 Speedbird741 : Missouri just joined the list of states that is going to file against the bill the "trying" party passed. Maybe it's a matter of time until we see law
74 WarRI1 : Well, we will just have to see who comes out on top, the lying party, or the trying party. Right now, the trying party has a law giving health care t
75 AirframeAS : Missouri could be the 13th State to join the multi-state lawsuit? I read that there could be more States joining soon or will be filing their own law
76 flymia : To say the US does not have the best higher educational insitutions in the world is absolute rubish. Professors make a lot of money in the US that is
77 RJ111 : I'm sure you can dress either system to be superior than the other if you cherry pick the stats to suit your argument.
78 AverageUser : "Appointed", huh? This from a kids' learning site: The People in Each State Vote for Electors in the Electoral College. In most of the states, and al
79 Boeing1970 : Yes, the electors are appointed. They then carry the vote of the people. So, as I have said once already: [Edited 2010-03-24 06:23:32]
80 Post contains links AverageUser : A wrong order of events. Your statute goes like this: Elector-candidates, however, can only be constitutionally "appointed" (that is, actually become
81 Post contains images arrow : Bingo. You can just as easily make the US system look like one of the developed world's worst by cherry-picking those stats in which the performance
82 Boeing1970 : Just quit it alright. You are wrong. Electors are appointed, they are just people. We vote and those votes are then assigned to the those people - lo
83 Speedbird741 : You don't have nearly as many for other countries compared to the US. You should tell that to mister Obama so he could stop doing it. As well as to m
84 AverageUser : Elector-candidates are appointed (usually "cooling" merited politicians), but the people decide on who's going to be an actual elector. It's the same
85 Post contains images DXing : Nope, absolutely on target. You have shown no consideration in controlling cost whatsoever. Your one goal was to punish insurance companies whom you
86 Yellowstone : Nope, you're still wrong. Both parties choose in advance a slate of potential electors for each state. The voters then choose which slate of potentia
87 Post contains images AverageUser : The best flowers in the vase, or what? Yep, that's is the system of indirect representation we have in democracies! There can be never "direct respon
88 mrocktor : Name one such other document that explicitly states that the government is limited to the enumerated powers listed and the citizen is to be assumed t
89 Post contains images Ken777 : Nope. But people are changing their minds. Haven't I been an advocate of health care reform that would provide patients access without using the ER.
90 Klaus : The peaks of medical quality are very high in the US, but the average is so-so at best, while the average prices are much higher compared to the aver
91 Post contains links arrow : Excerpt from a recent (January, 2010) article in the New England Journal of Medicine: Ranking 37th — Measuring the Performance of the U.S. Health C
92 DXing : Not what average user was saying. He said: Electors don't answer to the voters if they decide to become faithless electors. They would answer to the
93 AverageUser : Electors don't answer to anyone. We had actually in this country, in 1956, a presidential election where the electoral chamber was split, and only th
94 DXing : Yes they do. They answer to the party leadership that appoints them and if they ever want to be chosen to be electors again they had better vote the
95 AverageUser : Simply, no indirectly elected representative (elector or a parliament member) will answer to any person (or organization) while in office! You can't
96 DXing : Electors are not directly or indirectly elected. They are appointed. Do you even understand the difference?
97 AGM100 : Let me just remind everyone .... the taxes for it start this year ... the implementation of starts in 2014. If it is so good ...why are we waiting 4 y
98 AverageUser : DX Dear, this is really not a difficult concept at all -- only those elector candidates who have won the necessary majority in the State General Elec
99 Boeing1970 : What do you think I just said? Just because you opt to describe who they are differently doesn't mean my description is wrong. Move on.
100 Continental : So the electors aren't directly elected by the people. It is done by the parties, which will select electors who will obviously vote along party line
101 AirframeAS : You know why?? It is because the People are so sick and tired of waiting for such bill to pass regardless of what is in it, at the same time they are
102 Ken777 : Haven't you read ANYTHING about the high costs of treating people in the ER because they don't have insurance? Well, you need to write an article for
103 DXing : One more time. The electors are not elected in any way shape or form by the people, nor are they responsible to the people which is quite unlike the
104 AverageUser : Yes usually, but that is not exclusive. An elector is legally entitled to vote the way he or she pleases, just as is a parliamentary representative i
105 Dreadnought : People have been told repeatedly for the past couple of years that this was the case, that an entitlement society, particularly one as diverse as our
106 Zentraedi : This is what's absurd. You flat out contradict yourself. The whole "no one is denied medical treatment in the US" is "government telling me what is a
107 DocLightning : In fact, in many municipalities, you are MANDATED to have garbage and water and electric service. No court has ever overturned such requirements.
108 Post contains images DXing : Yet somehow adding 20-30 million people to a system without adding doctors, nurses, medical staff, or facilities is going to lower costs. I'll bet yo
109 Flighty : Most of the cost problems have nothing to do with this law. This law is about basic normal American rights. The right to not have insurance drop you.
110 AGM100 : Spot on ... they our power hungry and want to control us from cradle to grave. Even worse .. a power grab and a end run on our "outdated constitution
111 Boeing1970 : You mean someone like me who already has insuranace who now has to not only pay for my own insurance but pay taxes so someone else can have insurance
112 DXing : I'd like to know which municipalities mandate electrical and water service. If you don't pay the bill they will come turn those off. Garbage service
113 Ken777 : Later in your post you talk about how bad the USPA is, and how FedEx & UPS wanted to take on first class mail. But those two companies aren't pre
114 AverageUser : That would have been avoided by everyone having a compulsary undumpable national insurance at the maternity ward.
115 Speedbird741 : Again, I want to make sure that what I am proving is that QUALITY wise the US health system is far far above middle list, or 37th place for that matt
116 AirStairs : No that's quite terrible actually. I suppose that binding referenda are good for some issues, but majoritarianism is not the virtue that you hold it
117 Post contains images AGM100 : Wow what a racist ..angry person you are .... Of course that is what is going to happen .... the Columbia professor said so Kenn I beleive you are ri
118 Post contains images IMissPiedmont : Well as a matter of fact, they can't.
119 Ken777 : But stopping the mandate opens the door for a public option brought in the back door. That is what conservatives need to think about when they head t
120 DXing : No I do not, I reference the fact that the law precludes them from accepting or delivering 1st class or bulk mail. But now they will unfettered acces
121 Post contains images Ken777 : Drive to your nationally known local medical center and find a hospital called Ben Taub. Guess what - it's an indigent hospital and your tax dollars
122 PPVRA : Did Speedbird say the system is working flawlessly? No. Also note that 1974 is when another "healthcare reform" wsa passed, the HMO Act of 1974, whic
123 Post contains links PPVRA : And just because I said that, I found it: OVERALL HEALTH SYSTEM ACHIEVEMENT FOR 191 COUNTRIES http://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper28.pdf See page 10.
124 PPVRA : For some reason I can't edit my post above, but also note that the study contains a "fairness in financing" ranking. This is obviously a value judgeme
125 AirStairs : They are unrelated. Please explain to me how the elimination of one opens any door for the other procedurally or otherwise. You can't. But that is ex
126 Ken777 : It's not that difficult to understand. The insurance buying groups and mandates were basically Republican ideas that got included in the HCR Bill. If
127 AirStairs : No that is what you hope is true but that is by no means necessarily true. And you think it would happen just like that? Let me get this straight: I
128 Post contains images WarRI1 : Someone making $4 per hour is in utter poverty in this country, and anyone who advocates such a salary should never, never accuse anyone of exploitat
129 AirStairs : But the utter hilarity that both you and Ken fail to understand is that your only alternative is to not allow them to work at all.
130 Speedbird741 : If you want to provide labor you should not be taking into consideration the poverty level, but rather you should be offering a wage that is at, or d
131 WarRI1 : Minimum wage laws were passed to help with the problem of people who want to pay other humans slave wages. Even minimum wage is not livable in the US
132 WarRI1 : I doubt it, thank goodness we have Social Services which helps out the people who would be exploited by certain folks. I guess that is why we have th
133 Ken777 : Maybe not, but it is the potential, or risk, depending on your opinions. No. But I believe that the liberals are clearly thinking about it and the Co
134 Post contains links mt99 : A Republican Idea? ""The truth is this is a Republican idea," said Linda Quick , president of the South Florida Hospital and Health care Association.
135 Flighty : Ken in the last 20 years around 1 billion people have been lifted out of poverty by jobs that we consider "poverty level." There is nothing wrong wit
136 WarRI1 : Great information, Oh! the hypocrisy from the Republicans.
137 Speedbird741 : You are not getting the big picture here. NOBODY should be looking for a minimum wage that satisfies poverty level. That is flat out wrong. Yes that
138 WarRI1 : I only mention the USA, and the cost of living here. We cannot apply our wage needs to where the cost of living is a pittance to ours. Poverty is muc
139 Post contains images AirStairs : I know why they were established, but you mistakenly think that the minimum wage law means that all those people who would be paid low wages are now
140 WarRI1 : Let us see, we have to eat, we have to have cloths, heat and shelter, just one person, never mind a family. Those are basics. Apply that to livabilit
141 AirStairs : So if I am skilled in an obtuse, outdated kind of indigenous basket weaving, I am still entitled to food, clothes, heat and shelter because I need it
142 Post contains links Speedbird741 : Have a look at this. From 2003, but proves the point nonetheless, right within the US borders. http://www.seattlepi.com/opinion/153901_unemploy26.htm
143 EA CO AS : But that's only if you voluntarily choose to own - or even rent, for that matter - a home or other form of dwelling. The government cannot legally re
144 JakeOrion : Well, looks like I don't get a choice in the matter. My employer has opted to drop everyone's health care coverage as he explains its cheaper to pay t
145 Klaus : Sounds like cow manure. If he had provided coverage for everybody before, why would he drop it now, except to make a pointless political statement at
146 AverageUser : I think so too, as the fine is will be effective only in 2014, for companies employing 50 or more.
147 Klaus : By your request I searched for your post and actually found it. Your statement is quite irrelevant in this context. a) Re-read my statement: A stable
148 Dreadnought : Not at all. Case in point: I saw this case unfold before my eyes. A company with 120 employees considering the new law. It would be much cheaper for
149 Post contains images Klaus : They could also stop buying supplies – think of all the money they could "save" that way! Typical shortsighted thinking. One of the fastest ways to
150 mt99 : As an employee.. why would you stay with that company?
151 AverageUser : I suppose the future Republican governance could and would increase the tax to mach the actual development of insurance premiums?
152 Post contains images JakeOrion : Because now he would oew more (hey, he's rich remember?) than he was normally paying. I can't blame him, its either pay this or terminate employees.
153 Ken777 : So the boss cuts out half his workforce, then customers really notice the difference. If you're a retailer you'll find the good customers giong somew
154 AverageUser : Any reason why that should happen now, and not in 2014 when there's an actual tax to pay?
155 JakeOrion : Nope, he already has notified us that they will cancel the health insurance under Kaiser when the contract is up. Now instead of paying $60 a month w
156 JakeOrion : Length of contract with Kaiser. When it expires I do not know, but the President/owner of the company himself has stated it will be canceled and not
157 AverageUser : The non-insurance fee evidently needs to be raised significantly to maintain the parity with rising insurance premiums. Talk to your GOP representati
158 Post contains links and images DXing : Yep, it's called medicaid and it is restricted to those that are actually indigent or fall below the ascribed income level to qualify for medicaid an
159 mt99 : So the president would hold people "ransom" in their current job to save money? Wow. What a classy classy person. I am sure everyone LOVES working th
160 Post contains links casInterest : http://cbs11tv.com/local/Baby.denied.coverage.2.1587978.html Well here is a sad story that won't exist under the new medical laws. I still don't think
161 Dreadnought : As for McCain, he also proposed a constitutional amendment. And RomneyCare was implemented by a state, which is constitutionally allowed to impose he
162 mt99 : In most "modern" countries... employers don't have to - because health care is provided. Maybe your question is.. "Can you name one other modern coun
163 AverageUser : Finland., for instance, 2,23% of wages paid out are directly funded jointly for that purpose, and for pensions.
164 JakeOrion : He can afford one or the other, not both. Keep people or let go, which is more important to you? You are such a hypocrite mt99 its not even funny. Fi
165 Dreadnought : Peanuts. In my company, some of our employees' health insurance represents over 25% of their compensation.
166 mt99 : Have i said that? If he would have to let people go.. who will do the work? Its self correcting, he needs people to do the work - people will only co
167 DXing : To do the best by their child. But that does not include expecting the rest of society to allow you to make as much as you can without contributing m
168 Starbuk7 : I am not sure what reality you actually live in but if the company pays for the increased costs of healthcare and they do not have enough left to pay
169 mt99 : Lets keep tis focus on your for a second ..: now you are saying that we should feel sorry for the car companies? Are you being forced to live in SOCA
170 Starbuk7 : We are keeping this on focus, you said QUOTE: Shut it down if its not profitable UNQUOTE. Well, the banks and car companys in question were not profi
171 JakeOrion : You practically imply it in every post. Tax the rich, tax the rich, tax the rich. Man up and admit it. I'll have more respect for you then. He does p
172 mt99 : Fine lets. Lets also shut down JakeOrions Company. Would you agree? I wasn't talking about "you" in particular.. i was referring "you" in a general s
173 Starbuk7 : They were doing fine with their orginal profit margin, then you and your Health Care bill added extra taxes to their company and lo and behold, somet
174 mt99 : Yup too bad. Some new better companies who are efficient will come and take their place. Then i didn't understand it or you didn't make it clear. For
175 mt99 : No they aren't doing fine: See his response. He refers to the low profits in present tense. Which one would you choose. There are 2 (two, dos, deux,
176 Post contains links JakeOrion : NO. You are moving the thread off topic like usual, so start a new thread or PM me. BACK TO THREAD: This bill has personally screwed me due to my emp
177 mt99 : Hey,you started talking about this..It takes as many clicks for you to PM me, as it does for me to PM you.. What tax bracket does it fall under now?
178 mt99 : So accoring to Dreadnought Company "A" is paying $4000 a head, yet the tax is for anything over $10,200.. I don't think you are reading it properly..
179 Starbuk7 : So, in your senario, I busted my ass and worked hard to make more money and now I have to pay more taxes. Sorry, I personnaly don't like that situati
180 Post contains links AGM100 : I am so glad I appose the bill .... keeps the fleas off since I am not laying with the old dogs of socialism. I wonder if the dems are happy to be so
181 mt99 : I like my scenario where i have toilet made of gold. But hey we all cant live in abstracts realities like Flat-Tax-Land. Right now there are 2 choice
182 BMI727 : That is the one redeeming quality of income taxes: we all want to pay more. From a dollars and cents perspective, a VAT is probably more effective.
183 AverageUser : Let me briefly characterize the working of our system for you then. The parents' income will not have any effect on the aid of a disabled child under
184 AverageUser : Well, that shows how much less pressure there is in our system towards the finances and profits of the employers, does it not! .
185 AirStairs : Given all of your points above, how can you not support the idea that there is no better incentive to study and get better jobs than to get health ca
186 WarRI1 : I guess in the jungle, that would apply. I do not consider the US as a jungle where the fittest survive. Silly me.
187 AirStairs : Your post makes it clear that you didn't actually read mine. Try answering my question again: in the United States, should I be provided a living wag
188 WarRI1 : Silly, I am not able to from an opinion about the jungle mentality you express without reading your post? That is why I wrote that about the jungle,
189 AirStairs : So how do you respond to mt99's assertion that someone who gets fired as a result of this healthcare bill "study" to get a better job with a company
190 AirStairs : And your point is noted that you and those in your community will support me with a living wage even if I refuse to do any other task besides basket
191 mt99 : The only reason you should better yourself if to pay Blue Cross? Ok got it. Well i was being facetious, but fine lets work on it.. Tell JakeOrion tha
192 AirStairs : You are saying in reply 177 that it is at least partly (maybe mostly) JakeOrion's fault that his employer healthcare will be dropped because his job
193 JakeOrion : Problem is, with 10% unemployment and climbing, and then the added side of if my company is doing this, what is stopping other companies from doing t
194 mt99 : Lets take it a step at a time: you agree with my that JakeOrion's job (sorry to keep you bringing into it) will no longer be good enough? and he need
195 Post contains links mt99 : You got to be marketable. Its capitalism! For college graduates unemployment rate is 5%.. if i'm reading correctly http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pd
196 JakeOrion : *sigh* Listen, I know what job is a dead end, and I won't go anywhere with it. However, when the economy took a dive, it threw out my chances of gett
197 DXing : I'm glad you're happy with your system. If it works for you then keep it. It does not mean that it is the best system for everyone.
198 AirStairs : Yes. Except you argued the exact opposite before the bill passed (that we should all have healthcare regardless of whether or jobs are good enough or
199 rightrudder : I can understand why it is regulated and not only to promote public health and safety but also to generate revenue. In a federal scale, the Commerce
200 Dreadnought : What does that have to do with the Democrats screwing up health care? Do you realize that they have actually created a massive DISincentive to having
201 Post contains images Ken777 : Gee, as I recall, you will be paying taxes on the 401k funds when you take them out. But you will have received tens of thousands of dollars in healt
202 AverageUser : Fine, but why then do you keep bringing up those derogatory "ant colony" parables whenever you talk about socialized healthcare. If you're genuine ab
203 DXing : Which is only good if I use it. So far I have only to use it for office visits and such. Again, you don't pay taxes on something you don't use. But I
204 san747 : Reading through these 200 posts, I am so glad to see you act as the voice of reason at the pure venom being spewed in this discussion. As for my opin
205 AverageUser : Yes, you have that angry tribal healthcare totem you'll have to placate with twice the maize bowls than everyone else. I say stop worshipping your id
206 Starbuk7 : My daughter is a college student, and many of her friends and her friends friends whom are graduated or still in a 4 year college can not find jobs a
207 BMI727 : All told, this probably won't change y life much at all, but having the government tell me what sort of healthcare I need leaves a bad taste in my mo
208 DXing : The problem that conservatives have is that the United States government has failed miserably at the two entitlement programs it has right now, namel
209 Klaus : The german unemployment figures are much closer to the actual value than the substantially under-reported US ones are - which nevertheless are still
210 DXing : Do you really believe the Chinese economy is better off than the German one? Listen...hear that? It's sound of your argument losing all its air.
211 Post contains links and images Klaus : They are on a fast growth path but they still are a developing country needing over a billion people to generate the exports we do with a mere 80 mil
212 AverageUser : The Left here has been promoting fair social policies since the Declaration of Forssa -- their year 1903 "wish list" has been fulfilled almost to the
213 mrocktor : You "help" them by making them unemployed and unemployable. Increase the minimum wage above what the worker is actually worth in the market and he ge
214 AverageUser : Where do you keep them if your house was sold?
215 mt99 : If that was the case, why not report 4% instead of 10% unemployment?[Edited 2010-03-26 06:57:56]
216 AGM100 : Roger that .... they simply laid the plan for private insurance to fail. This bill is radical to the core .. and truly a fundamental change as he sta
217 Post contains links DXing : Perhaps this will give you an idea of the difference between thinking in the United States and Europe. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8fCbOX0Ou8&
218 AirStairs : Caterpillar has said that this bill will directly increase costs of employment by $100 million in the first year, Medtronic, a medical device maker s
219 Klaus : So how come the sky hasn't fallen in any of the countries which had proper healthcare coverage for many decades already? You really think the USA is
220 BMI727 : All I know is that if I were in charge of a company, I would be on the next plane to China in order to start moving factories off shore.
221 AirStairs : But then all the unioners who just worked so hard to get this passed will be up in arms that evil management dare take away the jobs that they deserv
222 Post contains links DXing : The debacle that is SS and Medicare speaks volumes about how incapble this government is at running social entitlement programs. You can be forgiven
223 mt99 : I don't get it. $100Million sounds like a lot but CAT has revenues of about $32Billion. sure its money, but in the grand scheme of things $100M its p
224 Post contains links DXing : That should read 1st quarter, not first year. http://www.centralillinoisnewscenter.com/news/local/89196162.html Caterpillar Inc., says it will make a
225 Post contains images Ken777 : Same with auto insurance - not worth anything to you if you don't need it. But you still pay for your truck insurance - and with after tax dollars. W
226 DXing : I don't have to own a vehicle. Right now I'm mandated to buy health insurance no matter what. I could just as easily say give me the compensation in
227 Post contains links mt99 : This would be an "additional" operating cost. So the comparison to total revenue is valid. It sure isn't. How is it the fault to this bill that their
228 WarRI1 : Now you said that to the wrong guy, I came from poverty, American style, going to bed hungry and waking hungry and going to school the same way, mill
229 BMI727 : but... Which is it? And many of them were The economic case for those jobs simply wasn't there anymore, and the company would be doing wrong by the s
230 DXing : It's misleading. Your post suggests that they have an unencumbered 32bn to play with which is not the case. When you add the 100 million to the total
231 WarRI1 : Please let me know what brand and flavor of Kool Ade you guys drink, dam! talk about strong. I must have read those word a thousand times on here. Ti
232 mt99 : Or there could no additional charges.. Its not misleading at all. If a $32B cannot handle a $100M hit- then this law is the least of your problems. I
233 BMI727 : There is the whole recession thing. Cause. Effect. Not completely of course. There are plenty of reasons why governments are in trouble, but some pro
234 Speedbird741 : Well that's because their tax advantage is not expected to be eliminated until 2013. Until then, maybe you can expect cuts and price raises. How does
235 DXing : Doubtful since these charges will recurr throughout the year. If your revenue is 32b and your operating cost is 31B then 100 million makes difference
236 Post contains links Klaus : I see. So you would simply scrap these programs and leave the affected citizens to their fate, do I see that correctly? Instead of finding ways to im
237 AverageUser : Copenhagen is well known for its crampy apartments. And I read this from women's mags Mrs and her friends swap. There's no single "European" style of
238 Post contains links mt99 : Then why take the hit now? If your revenue is 32B and your operating cost is 31B, your company is in deep deep trouble. And guess what? your 31B oper
239 Post contains images AverageUser : Out "ant colony" neighbourhood for the benefit of DX: (not our street nor our house, but the next street to us)
240 mt99 : OK i answered my own question: From a WSJ article which i cant paste a link to for some reason "Accounting rules say the charges, which affect what a
241 Post contains images Ken777 : Gee, as I recall, you will be paying taxes on the 401k funds when you take them out. But you will have received tens of thousands of dollars in healt
242 Speedbird741 : Again, the tax advantage is only expected to be eliminated in 2013. Or in other words, the tax law change will only be enacted in 2013. Speedbird741
243 Dreadnought : You forget Sarbanes-Oxley.
244 Ken777 : Oh I do get it. You've got a nice tax free ride and you'll be fighting to keep it - all the while saying it has no value. But the really hard part fo
245 Post contains images Klaus : Ah, yes... another really smart plan...!
246 san747 : As a conservative, yes he would. Note that no conservative poster on this board has denied the assertion I made in reply 204- Ironic coming from some
247 DXing : We won't need to scrap them as they will scrap themselves as they go bankrupt in the next few years. The way to fix them is clear but politicians in
248 Post contains links mt99 : http://m.cnbc.com/id/36055837 "As Credit Suisse noted, "the hit to earnings is recognizing the effect of a tax increase in the future and shoving it i
249 DXing : Gauranteed you will see the charge again. Agreed, but it still can put a huge dent in operating capital as witnessed by Catapillar.
250 Dreadnought : It's a PV estimate for the next few years as required by Sarbannes-Oxley. It's probably understated by as much as the auditors will allow, since the
251 Post contains images Ken777 : It's clear that you have never taken an accounting course. Establishing the value is actually very simple. It is the dollar amount that your employer
252 mt99 : It will put a dent in Caterpillar not necessarily in other better run companies. that's your opinion. and still a succesfull company should be able t
253 Dreadnought : You haven't explained why they should take a hit at all. With our current Congress, that is a given.
254 mt99 : First though. Do you agree that it should be a tiny hit?
255 Dreadnought : For health care? Zero. Apart from accident insurance for anything that might happen on the job, it's not their problem. It appears that the only just
256 Post contains images DXing : Because it has no value if I don't use it. I would just as soon have my HSA but that's going the way of the dinosaur thanks to Obamacare. Less choice
257 Ken777 : Got that wrong yet again. Today she can get a job that will provide full insurance. She'll have to pay the going rate, but that's never been the issu
258 mt99 : Easy question.. Is a 1% hit a big deal or not? Yes or No.. We can discuss the rest after we get past this one simple question
259 Dreadnought : Yes. The question is stupid. If a branch of Bank of America is robbed and $10 million is stolen, by your measure it's not a big deal. But any time th
260 mt99 : Good. And the one reason you are boasting "$100 Million" and "$1 Billion" charges its only because they sound big and you fail to put it in context f
261 Dreadnought : Hardly. I used $5 in one example. What is misleading about the argument that forced income redistribution is wrong? It is not the employers' place to
262 DXing : Not according to Obama care. She cannot be discriminated against. Again, if I don't use it, it is of no value. Same difference if they were to give m
263 Post contains links DXing : The two latest polls, one from CBS, you know, that bastion of conservatism, would tend to disagree. http://www.pollster.com/polls/us/healthplan.php
264 san747 : Then whose is it? I daresay the vast majority of Americans get their health insurance through their employer. You better tell those employers they ca
265 Post contains links SA7700 : This thread will be locked for further postings. Please continue your discussion on this topic, in this thread: Health Care Reform Passed (Part 3) Any
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