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The Big Car Engine Break-in Procedure Controversy  
User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4940 times:

So if you're an avid gear-head like moi you probably have heard of many different ways to break in an engine. In preparation of receiving my new car I've been doing some research, just to be sure.

Basically from my previous experience breaking in smaller R/C engines with a similar method, and from opening up car engines, this seems to be the best method for break in, as harsh as it sounds:

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

Now at first glance it may sound harsh to the engine, but it really isn't when done properly. This is essentially same method that is mentioned in all the manuals for the dozens off R/C engines I've owned. Basically turn on the engine, let it warm up, then give it full bore for a minute, then slowly reduce back to idle for a minute, then repeat. I've broken up all R/C my engines at one point or another for servicing and they all have been in excellent condition without any burnt piston walls.

The engines we use in my brothers buggy (VW bug engines) are usually used. We always have to re-ring the pistons or straight up get new pistons eventually and when we open them up to inspect them they always have burnt piston walls. But after we change them and break them in the "rough way" we never have that problem, and the engines do seem to keep their power better (we open up the engine for other reasons however.)

I don't know what the manual for my car will say (yes I have an instruction-manual reading fetish) but if it's like every car I've seen before it will probably have a limitation on the RPMs, probably saying to not exceed something like 4500 RPMs for the first 500 miles or so. I'm not too sure I agree with that. My guess is that manufacturers just over-simplify the break in procedure, and 99% of car owners wouldn't be arsed to read the manual anyways.

So fellow gear-heads, what's your take on it?   

43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7298 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4935 times:

I couldn't care less about break in I drive them from day 1 like I drive them on the last day I own them, I've never had an engine go pop or had any engine damage what-so-ever.

The only engine that I have run in according to the instructions is my Husky since I'm going to keep her for a very long time.

Big version: Width: 775 Height: 499 File size: 94kb


[Edited 2010-03-24 09:27:05]

User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8838 posts, RR: 24
Reply 2, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4903 times:

Interesting gearhead topic.

I agree that giving an engine a proper full-throttle treatment early in its life probably is a good idea, seating and tempering the components at stress for 10-15 minutes.

But unlike an RC engine, how are going to run a car engine at full throttle for 10-15 minutes without ending up in jail? Remember it's not just RPMs you need, but load as well. With an RC engine, you run it with the propeller. A car has to be run with road and/or wind resistance. So unless you have a rolling road assembly, (or you live in Germany), you can't run in a car this way.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4851 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
But unlike an RC engine, how are going to run a car engine at full throttle for 10-15 minutes without ending up in jail? Remember it's not just RPMs you need, but load as well. With an RC engine, you run it with the propeller. A car has to be run with road and/or wind resistance. So unless you have a rolling road assembly, (or you live in Germany), you can't run in a car this way.

Well of course you can't. The R/C procedure I mentioned was just an example. In a car all you really want to do is cycle it throughout the RPM range giving it a decent load and then release it. From what I've read short high load bursts followed by coasting in gear will do the trick. Easy to do in daily driving without getting in too much trouble.  


User currently offlinepilotsmoe From United States of America, joined May 2005, 249 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4733 times:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Thread starter):
Now at first glance it may sound harsh to the engine, but it really isn't when done properly. This is essentially same method that is mentioned in all the manuals for the dozens off R/C engines I've owned. Basically turn on the engine, let it warm up, then give it full bore for a minute, then slowly reduce back to idle for a minute, then repeat. I've broken up all R/C my engines at one point or another for servicing and they all have been in excellent condition without any burnt piston walls.

RC engines usualy have tapered nickel or chrome plated cylinder bores, and this type of engine doesn't do too good running slobbering rich due to the interference fit of the cylinder sleeve. Best to open it up so it gets up to temperature. Not the case with a ringed piston, though.


User currently offlineIMissPiedmont From United States of America, joined May 2001, 6287 posts, RR: 33
Reply 5, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4703 times:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Thread starter):
not exceed something like 4500 RPMs for the first 500 miles or so.

I've never had any of my 3 trucks over 3000 RPM, ever. And the low mileage one just passed 110,000 miles. Maybe that's why I get 300, 000 miles or more from all my vehicles.

That aside, new cars these days do not need any special break in procedures, the engines can take everything you can throw at them. Just accept that if you really do take an engine, any engine, to 4500 RPM regularly it won't last too long.



Damn, this website is getting worse daily.
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8491 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4698 times:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Thread starter):
but if it's like every car I've seen before it will probably have a limitation on the RPMs, probably saying to not exceed something like 4500 RPMs for the first 500 miles or so. I'm not too sure I agree with that.

I think you should consider agreeing with it. Who designed the engine? Who engineered the fluids the car shipped out with? Don't you think they have broken in 100s of motors, and know the exact perfect way to do it?

Ignoring clear instructions like this is, on some level, like saying the guys who built the motor don't know how it works. Maybe they designed the rings for the particular break-in procedure they wrote up.

In newer cars, long oil change intervals mean that the engine must be engineered to last properly, given the maintenance schedule provided. I have faith they are telling us the correct information.

One thing they fail to do however, is to change automatic transmission fluid. A BMW will say it has "lifetime" transmission fluid. A bunch of baloney. It lasts about 100,000 miles. So, in that sense, they are giving you instructions on how to blow up your vehicle, not how to maintain it properly. So this stuff can be tricky. (?)


User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 30
Reply 7, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4692 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 6):
A BMW will say it has "lifetime" transmission fluid. A bunch of baloney. It lasts about 100,000 miles.

My VW has the same deal. That just goes against everything I ever learned about cars. I wanted to change it anyway but 1) there is no service port and 2) they don't even sell the filter aftermarket



Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
User currently onlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7298 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4682 times:

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 5):
Just accept that if you really do take an engine, any engine, to 4500 RPM regularly it won't last too long.

Better not drive any high performance car from Italy cause you be doing that and more all the time.


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12138 posts, RR: 51
Reply 9, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4664 times:

I ahve bought more than 20 new Ford products in my life time, to date. I have always "babied" the engines for the first 500 miles, by not going over 2000 RPM or about 60 MPH (98kph). I have never had an engine problem with any Ford product I have bought. My son once bought a brand new 2003 Chevy Silverado and was told to drive it hard to break it in, the block cracked after about 350 miles. Then the Chevy dealer tried to tell him it was not covered because he did not change the oil. The Factory Rep for GM overruled and said the first oils change was not due at only 350 miles and the Chevy dealer installed a new short block, and used his heads, etc.. In 2006, he traded it for a new F-150 and has not had a problem with the Ford. He just replaced his 2006 F-150 with a new 2010 F-150.

User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8491 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4654 times:

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 7):
I wanted to change it anyway but 1) there is no service port and 2) they don't even sell the filter aftermarket

At least on the BMW product (a ZF 5 speed unit in my relative's case), there is ability to change the fluid. But as a "marketing point" they tell you it never needs changing. (Which is definite BS).

So these days it's hard to know if the manufacturer instructions (for break-in or for maintenance) are truly written to help you keep your vehicle happy, or if written by marketing. It is hard to know.

If you ever read old Mercedes maintenance it's absolutely hilarious. Have a mechanic inspect and lubricate everything every 1,000 miles. Replace a bunch of wear parts annually. It's like an aircraft mx manual.


User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4644 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 10):
So these days it's hard to know if the manufacturer instructions (for break-in or for maintenance) are truly written to help you keep your vehicle happy, or if written by marketing. It is hard to know.

Agreed. I think it's mostly the latter.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 10):

If you ever read old Mercedes maintenance it's absolutely hilarious. Have a mechanic inspect and lubricate everything every 1,000 miles. Replace a bunch of wear parts annually. It's like an aircraft mx manual.

The manual for my grandpas old (but mint condition) 280C coupe was just like you said. Very detailed. Wish they were all still like that. It's hard enough to get a hold of factory maintenance manuals as it is nowadays.


User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9945 posts, RR: 26
Reply 12, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4633 times:
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Quoting Flighty (Reply 6):
I think you should consider agreeing with it. Who designed the engine? Who engineered the fluids the car shipped out with? Don't you think they have broken in 100s of motors, and know the exact perfect way to do it?

Ignoring clear instructions like this is, on some level, like saying the guys who built the motor don't know how it works. Maybe they designed the rings for the particular break-in procedure they wrote up.
Quoting Flighty (Reply 6):
One thing they fail to do however, is to change automatic transmission fluid. A BMW will say it has "lifetime" transmission fluid. A bunch of baloney. It lasts about 100,000 miles. So, in that sense, they are giving you instructions on how to blow up your vehicle, not how to maintain it properly. So this stuff can be tricky. (?)

So I'm a bit confused - why do you implicitly trust them on one thing, but not another? If they are erroneous on the transmission fluid, that would make me suspect they might be wrong on other aspects of car care as well.

And it's not always as clear cut as saying "not following their instructions means you think they don't know how it works." For example, 3000 mile oil changes might not be needed in a lot of cars. But the dealers sure will make more money if everyone brings in their car every 3000 miles. So it's certainly in their interest to recommend it.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineMolykote From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1340 posts, RR: 29
Reply 13, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4621 times:
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Quoting Flighty (Reply 6):
One thing they fail to do however, is to change automatic transmission fluid. A BMW will say it has "lifetime" transmission fluid. A bunch of baloney. It lasts about 100,000 miles. So, in that sense, they are giving you instructions on how to blow up your vehicle, not how to maintain it properly. So this stuff can be tricky. (?)

It's the perfect cover story really. Never change the fluid because it's a "lifetime fill". Of course, when the transmission dies at 90k miles because you didn't change the fluid, this is the "lifetime".

Quoting Fly2HMO (Thread starter):
Basically from my previous experience breaking in smaller R/C engines with a similar method, and from opening up car engines, this seems to be the best method for break in, as harsh as it sounds:

My uncle rebuild bike engines for amateur and semi professional racers in his spare time. He uses a similar method and says that engines undergoing such a procedure perform great and last longer than when following manufacturer's break in guidelines (mostly Honda and Suzuki engines).

Take the above for what it's worth because everyone will have a story about their friend Jim who blows snot into the cylinders before break in, only does a break in under a full moon, etc. I have seen a number of torn down engines and I will say that those he's worked over do seem to be in fantastic shape at the end of their useful (racing) rebuild life.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Thread starter):
So fellow gear-heads, what's your take on it?   

For what it's worth, I'd just follow the manufacturer's instructions - an increasing number of which now advise that no break in procedure is necessary.



Speedtape - The asprin of aviation!
User currently offlineMolykote From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1340 posts, RR: 29
Reply 14, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4614 times:
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Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 12):
So I'm a bit confused - why do you implicitly trust them on one thing, but not another? If they are erroneous on the transmission fluid, that would make me suspect they might be wrong on other aspects of car care as well.

Honestly, BMW's "global war on maintenance" is only worth respecting if you're dumping the car before 60k miles. Almost any car in production can make that interval with barely an oil change (that's to say it will likely last that long, not that abnormal wear won't have taken place).

The BMW CCA publishes an "old school maintenance schedule" for those looking to hold on to their cars. It's not an "overkill" document for people who baby their cars. Rather, it's a sensible maintenance schedule that lies somewhere between what BMW prescribed for maintenance when the owner footed the bill (massive) and what BMW prescribes now that maintenance is ignored... I mean included  

The author asks that it not be published online so I'll respect these wishes. However, any interested party may be able to find it. Any BMW CCA member can e-mail the author directly.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 12):
And it's not always as clear cut as saying "not following their instructions means you think they don't know how it works." For example, 3000 mile oil changes might not be needed in a lot of cars. But the dealers sure will make more money if everyone brings in their car every 3000 miles. So it's certainly in their interest to recommend it.

I wouldn't listen to 90%+ of dealers when it comes to technical service advice. This is simply because too many of them shoot from the hip without doing adequate technical research, have not received adequate technical training, or simply don't care.

I'd absolutely trust information in an owner's manual or TSB before the word of a salesman. If the salesman presents adequate and effective technical documentation along with this claim, this is a different situation that him/her making a casual and unsubstantiated claim.



Speedtape - The asprin of aviation!
User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4607 times:

Quoting Molykote (Reply 13):
an increasing number of which now advise that no break in procedure is necessary.

True. Which makes sense. The precision CNC machining, materials, and other techniques used to build engines nowadays are significantly superior to stuff made from even just 15 years ago.

The only other break-in method I approve of somewhat is to drive it just like you normally would to begin with. However, a person with a spirited driving style will most likely have a better broken-in engine than somebody that drives like an old lady to church.

Honestly though, if you put two identical engines side by side, one broken in old-lady style, and the other the more aggressive way, they could very well have the exact same lifespan. BUT one engine, and most likely the aggressive one, will maintain its power and compression for much longer than the other.


User currently offlineLtbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13088 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4558 times:

Not only the engine, but brakes, tires, transmission, suspension and other components need to be 'broken in' for about 500 miles from new or when those components are replaced. By breaking in to me, it means not 'flooring' the gas, not doing drag racing like starts, not operating the engine under heavy loads or high revs and holding the overall speed to normal speed limits. I don't think they use 'break in' oils anymore, but I wouldn't go more than 4,000 miles before the 1st Oil change with filter change, to rinse out any bits and potential problems junk. It also allows you (if you go to the dealer) to get any bugs worked out, see if any abnormal wear issues and so on.

User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8838 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4548 times:

Quoting Ltbewr (Reply 16):
but I wouldn't go more than 4,000 miles before the 1st Oil change with filter change, to rinse out any bits and potential problems junk.

With a new car, I'll change the oil and filter after only 1000 miles. Guaranteed there are metal shavings and dirt in a new engine.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9945 posts, RR: 26
Reply 18, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4543 times:
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Quoting Molykote (Reply 14):
I wouldn't listen to 90%+ of dealers when it comes to technical service advice. This is simply because too many of them shoot from the hip without doing adequate technical research, have not received adequate technical training, or simply don't care.

Oh, absolutely. I was actually very pleasantly surprised when I bought my new car a couple weeks ago, and the salesman told me regular maintenance would be every 6000 miles or so - which is about what I would have done anyway.

Even with a brand new car, I have no plans to take it to the dealer for servicing (unless it's something they'll do for free). The mechanic I go to is extremely trustworthy, quick, and cost-effective.

Quoting Molykote (Reply 14):
Honestly, BMW's "global war on maintenance" is only worth respecting if you're dumping the car before 60k miles. Almost any car in production can make that interval with barely an oil change (that's to say it will likely last that long, not that abnormal wear won't have taken place).

The BMW CCA publishes an "old school maintenance schedule" for those looking to hold on to their cars. It's not an "overkill" document for people who baby their cars. Rather, it's a sensible maintenance schedule that lies somewhere between what BMW prescribed for maintenance when the owner footed the bill (massive) and what BMW prescribes now that maintenance is ignored... I mean included

Fair enough. I don't know a whole lot about BMWs or their required maintenance.....aside from suspecting that it's probably more expensive than mine  



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8873 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4540 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 9):
I have always "babied" the engines for the first 500 miles, by not going over 2000 RPM or about 60 MPH (98kph). I have never had an

Same here.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
With a new car, I'll change the oil and filter after only 1000 miles. Guaranteed there are metal shavings and dirt in a new engine.

No doubt about the shavings and dirt. always at a thousand miles, even with Mobile 1



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 30
Reply 20, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4525 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 19):
No doubt about the shavings and dirt. always at a thousand miles, even with Mobile 1

I've never bought a new car before. I just jump into my normal mx schedule :P



Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4516 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
Guaranteed there are metal shavings and dirt in a new engine.

I've known a few people (specially pilots) that do occasional engine oil analysis on their engines. It's really interesting to compare before/after the lab results and see the drastic drop in metallic particulates once an engine is broken in.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 19):
No doubt about the shavings and dirt. always at a thousand miles, even with Mobile 1

I've seen a lot of people saying that for engine break in it is best to use thicker mineral oils than thinner synthetics. That's another thing I'm not too sure I agree with. I guess if anything I'd go with a thick (15W-50 or higher) synthetic, but those weights are extremely hard to find in synthetic.

By the way, fellow motor-heads, is Amsoil any good? I know several people that swear by it but I just have used regular Mobile 1 and have had good results with that.


User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 30
Reply 22, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4502 times:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 21):
is Amsoil any good?

Couple jeep friends use it, love it. One of my hot rod friends uses it too, no complaints. My dad used it in his F150 for awhile. He now uses Rotella in the F250.



Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8838 posts, RR: 24
Reply 23, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4498 times:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 21):
I've seen a lot of people saying that for engine break in it is best to use thicker mineral oils than thinner synthetics. That's another thing I'm not too sure I agree with. I guess if anything I'd go with a thick (15W-50 or higher) synthetic, but those weights are extremely hard to find in synthetic.

The advantage of synthetics is mainly that it doesn't break down or sludge with high temps - probably not a problem for a brand new engine where you plan on making the first oil change after only 1000 miles or so, unless you immediately take it for blasts down the autobahn, or perhaps if you have a turbocharger.

I'd use a nice, thin oil that gets everywhere, like a 5W-30.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8873 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4482 times:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 21):
I just have used regular Mobile 1 and have had good results with that.

My Chevy truck came with Mobile 1 from the factory according to the dealer. I still use it, I change it at 3 thousand miles with filter. The guys at the garage, save it, and use it in their vehicles. My brother has a Ford truck, same 3K, same garage, they re-use his oil also. I guess they have faith in Mobile 1, or want to save a buck.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
25 Cadet57 : I'm going 5000 miles on mobil1. Thats what VW recommends for my car, and hell now the interval is 10k and they're still using mobil1.
26 WarRI1 : 5k is no problem with Mobile 1 according to what I have read. 10K Wow! Good stuff and not all that expensive with that mileage. If VW says that, I wo
27 Post contains images Flighty : You are right, I was not fair to criticize the poster. It is sometimes reasonable to believe the instructions are written for "ease" and "lack of sho
28 Fly2HMO : Hmm... Newer VW's and BMWs come with castrol synthetic from the factory. Where did your do your changes?
29 Post contains images kevinl1011 : Since I first began working on cars / engines in 1969, recommendations for engine "break in" have changed. The term "break in" refers to the initial w
30 Fly2HMO : Great post. Where is he? Haven't seen him around much.
31 Post contains images kevinl1011 : Thanks! The article you linked is pretty much spot on for custom built engines however production car engines are far more forgiving. The biggest ris
32 LOT767-300ER : Is there a reason you guys cant spell Mobil? You see a big gas station sign with the spelling probably everyday.. It depends which Amsoil you use, so
33 kevinl1011 : I beg to differ. Once the pores in the metal have absorbed and have baked in any lubricant, it's there 4-ever. Engine flushes are harmful and I can c
34 Post contains links LOT767-300ER : Those TSBs dont mean jack as theres also recommendations from almost every manufacturer (and especially GM) not to backflush a heater core. Even thou
35 Post contains images kevinl1011 : Well, In fact they do mean jack to a heck of a lot of people in higher places than you and I. Guys like Engineers and Corporate Attorneys who have te
36 MoltenRock : More often actually if you tow boats/horse trailer/camper/etc regularly. Then I'd ratchet it down to 75,000 miles. A transmission cooler sized for th
37 Cadet57 : I've always done them myself. The dealer told me they use Mobil1. Thats what i've always used. However, I did use Castrol on my last oil change (was
38 Fly2HMO : I would've sworn I spelled it correctly. Probably just habit of throwing an E on the end. Which ones? Inquiring minds would like to know. Hmm interes
39 cptkrell : For what it's worth, here are my experiemces; I've always used Mobil 1 in my '95 Chev S-10 since new at every 5,000 to 6,000 miles and has recently tu
40 WarRI1 : Did not register while typing. I guess my head was in Alabama.
41 Flighty : You're right, you never want to take transmission fluid to the point of utter breakdown. 60k or 75k is much smarter than 100k. BMWs last a long time,
42 Cadet57 : I'm not sure about VW dealers. But my subie friend told me that the dealer uses "whatever is on sale" So sometimes its valvoline, other times castrol
43 Molykote : An increasing tendency is for manufacturers to create their own oil specifications. In the past, we'd commonly see an owner's manual call for an SAE
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