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"Redistribution Of Wealth"  
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5599 posts, RR: 15
Posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3916 times:

Well, now that it has passed, the mask comes off.

"...income shift"

"It's a leveling"

"..way too wealthy."

"...mal-distribution of income in America."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY4Qbv7gPbo&feature=player_embedded

Keep talking. We're listening.

222, 957 as of the 3/25/2010.


When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
150 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinefuturepilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3907 times:

Wow, a few CEOs lose a couple hundred thousand dollars, when they took millions from the American people. I feel their pain.  


"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offlinepilotsmoe From United States of America, joined May 2005, 249 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3902 times:

Isn't this the whole point of insurance, to spread the risk(aka wealth)?

User currently offlineairtran737 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3705 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3897 times:
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Quoting pilotsmoe (Reply 2):

I ahould not ne responsible for paying for the healthcare of anyone but myself. I don't care about my neighbors, so why should I pay for them?



Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
User currently offlinefuturepilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3884 times:

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 3):

I ahould not ne responsible for paying for the healthcare of anyone but myself. I don't care about my neighbors, so why should I pay for them?

You're right. You should go rob them at gunpoint and get your money back. As i've been saying. If you don't like it, you can go live off the grid and live a simple life where you can tend to yourself for your own health care, and you can dodge the IRS as much as possible.



"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8913 posts, RR: 24
Reply 5, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3872 times:

Quoting pilotsmoe (Reply 2):
Isn't this the whole point of insurance, to spread the risk(aka wealth)?

Spreading risk is very different from redistributing wealth. In fact I can't think of how they are similar at all.

The forcible redistribution of wealth is wrong.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8696 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3870 times:

Quoting pilotsmoe (Reply 2):
Isn't this the whole point of insurance, to spread the risk(aka wealth)?

Absolutely. Many commentators think it's _horrible_ that a person with cancer and a $100,000 bill pays the same low premium as a healthy mother who has few health problems.

That's the point of insurance. To take care of people. That's what insurance IS. Previously, when sick people were kicked out of the pool, and refused reentry, that is not insurance. It is simply a robbery, not health insurance at all.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8913 posts, RR: 24
Reply 7, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3844 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 6):

That's the point of insurance. To take care of people. That's what insurance IS

No it isn't. Insurance is a mechanism to spread risk over a wider breadth of time and depth of people. If you do not take insurance, you assume the full risk of a $100,000 operation, or having to replace the Bentley you crashed into.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8696 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3797 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
No it isn't. Insurance is a mechanism to spread risk over a wider breadth of time and depth of people.

We are not in contradiction.

The risk is not absorbed by the insurance unless it plays by a sensible set of rules. If it accepts no sick people, and cancels the policy of people who become sick, then insurance no longer "insures" your health risks. Instead it is a way for powerful, clever men and women to take money from "the sheeple."  

Insurance is only useful if it is willing to pay out to sick people. If it does not, then it serves no purpose. Most people were born healthy. Each person may develop a health problem. In a sense, we all face the same risks over a lifetime. When insurance subdivides the population according to appetites and demographics, eventually it provides no value, because it cannot "redistribute" between the sick and the well. When insurance discriminates on the basis of health status, then the apocalypse has come and the game is over (See USA, recent times).

An essential problem is that healthy people find it disgusting that their tax money should take care of sick people. Yet, when those healthy people fall ill, society has an interest in healing them (and perhaps has some obligation). Employees at a company can share risk. But if a person is too sick to work, he or she must resign. Then that person can use COBRA awhile. Then if they are single, they are screwed.

Part of the reason why broad groups will be required to be insured is so that moral hazard doesn't prevent people from being opportunistic and getting insurance only when they are sick (in effect, destroying the insurance market). The general population won't be able to grasp how that works, but it's still valid.

Redistribution happens in company pools. Some employees are very sick. This cuts everybody's pay by a lot (since everyone has very expensive insurance). It's NOT fair. But it's a nice humane system. Nobody complains too much about the redistributive aspects of job-provided insurance.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8913 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3770 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 8):
Insurance is only useful if it is willing to pay out to sick people. If it does not, then it serves no purpose. Most people were born healthy. Each person may develop a health problem. In a sense, we all face the same risks over a lifetime. When insurance subdivides the population according to appetites and demographics, eventually it provides no value, because it cannot "redistribute" between the sick and the well. When insurance discriminates on the basis of health status, then the apocalypse has come and the game is over (See USA, recent times).

Agreed, which is why I like the idea of flattening insurance rates for basic, minimum insurance, so that the rates for an adult, whether, male, female, fat, thin, whatever, should be the same.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8417 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3708 times:

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 3):
I ahould not ne responsible for paying for the healthcare of anyone but myself. I don't care about my neighbors, so why should I pay for them?

But your neighbors are taking care of you to some extent. And because they are you have a massive health infrastructure at your disposal any time it's needed.

In your age bracket the risks of accidents is probably your highest risk, but medical conditions like leukemia can hit at any age, taking you out of the workforce for a long time and hitting 6 digits of care very easily.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 6):
Absolutely. Many commentators think it's _horrible_ that a person with cancer and a $100,000 bill pays the same low premium as a healthy mother who has few health problems.

When it comes to women, cancer strikes all ages harder than men from what I have seen. Breast & uterine cancer -v- testicular & prostate on the male side. So that healthy mother may be 30 days from joining the current cancer patient.

The difference? The woman who has had, say, breast cancer and been through the expensive treatment is going to stay on top of things while the "healthy mother" may not be doing self exams on a monthly basis.

But both need basic health care and both should be covered.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):
Agreed, which is why I like the idea of flattening insurance rates for basic, minimum insurance, so that the rates for an adult, whether, male, female, fat, thin, whatever, should be the same.

I would go for that - especially if there is a public option available to hold premiums down.


User currently offlineairtran737 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3705 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3703 times:
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Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 4):

Why should be up to me to pay for you? I have no problems paying my taxes, and believe me, am well versed enough to survive off the grid. You never told me why it is my responsibility, and your responsibility to pay for others? Why am I now paying for illegal alies to get healthcare? WHY? Next will we have government mandated auto insurance, where I will be forced to pay for the lazy bums who chose not to insure their vehicles?



Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 17
Reply 12, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3694 times:

America has a great history of redistribution of wealth ...its called charity. Over $300 billion given by US citezens every year to charitable orgs. But see the marxist dont like that ...they want to distribute it for politcal purposes. Its so easy to see why dont people get it ... ?


You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlinepgh234 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 796 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3688 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 1):
Wow, a few CEOs lose a couple hundred thousand dollars, when they took millions from the American people. I feel their pain.

One day you will get a $10,000 bonus check or something yet only get to deposit $5000 into your checking account just so you can pay for everyone else's car, house, heath insurance, laziness in the job market, pointless war, and other general fiscal incompetencies...you will not be singing the same tune.

Quoting pilotsmoe (Reply 2):
Isn't this the whole point of insurance, to spread the risk(aka wealth)?

No...insurance is a product that you CHOOSE to purchase when you feel you want to spread your risk. It is like choosing to purchase new clothes or a new car or even a prostitute. It is a product that you feel is worth your hard-earned dollar. I dont think I should be allowed to tell you how to spend your money in your wallet. Do you?

Now if I WANT to give to my friends/family/neighbors, that is a different story...I can do it myself a hell of a lot more quick and efficiently without another giant government bureaucracy. Then again, it is pretty hard to do that when the government already takes away over 50% of what I make (federal, state, county, township, gas-tax, booze-tax, sales-tax, property-tax, parking-tax, amusement-tax, unemployment, medicare, etc)

[Edited 2010-03-25 18:10:26]

User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15810 posts, RR: 27
Reply 14, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3650 times:

Quoting pgh234 (Reply 13):

Exactly. I can choose if I want to be part of a risk pool. I don't need the government to make it mandatory.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinewn700driver From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3650 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 10):
I would go for that - especially if there is a public option available to hold premiums down.

So would I. But by voting in a last minute, ill advised mandate drawn up almost entirely by the insurance industry itself, we can kiss that goodbye for good.


User currently offlinestarac17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3400 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3648 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 8):
The risk is not absorbed by the insurance unless it plays by a sensible set of rules. If it accepts no sick people, and cancels the policy of people who become sick, then insurance no longer "insures" your health risks. Instead it is a way for powerful, clever men and women to take money from "the sheeple."  

   If insurance wasn't the word used here, anyone who did something like this would be a thief and everyone would want that person in jail. If a corporation tried this crap in China (not that I'm suggesting China is better) and the government found out about it the ones responsible would be literally shot in the middle of Tiananmen Square.

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 11):
Why am I now paying for illegal alies to get healthcare? WHY? Next will we have government mandated auto insurance, where I will be forced to pay for the lazy bums who chose not to insure their vehicles?

If you are fortunate to be able to afford a $200,000 cancer treatment for you or someone in your family which could easily happen at anytime in the future and can keep your house maintain your standard of living, then more power to you. But realize that this same unforeseen circumstance will likely bankrupt 99% of the US population.

If anything there has to be a system to protect people who fall under these circumstances.

Also you have mandates for auto insurance and you shouldn't be able to register a car without having a policy. Anyone who chooses to drive a car illegally pays the punishment for it if they get caught doing it.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlinefuturepilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days ago) and read 3629 times:

Quoting pgh234 (Reply 13):

One day you will get a $10,000 bonus check or something yet only get to deposit $5000 into your checking account just so you can pay for everyone else's car, house, heath insurance, laziness in the job market, pointless war, and other general fiscal incompetencies...you will not be singing the same tune.

Dude i'm already bitching about taxes. Just because i'm 20 doesn't mean I don't have taxes deducted from my paycheck as well. What adults like yourself need to realize is that there are just some sacrifices we have to make to allow this country to be more prosperous.

Oh and your example was a little sensationalist IMHO.



"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offlinewn700driver From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days ago) and read 3614 times:

Quoting starac17 (Reply 16):
Also you have mandates for auto insurance and you shouldn't be able to register a car without having a policy. Anyone who chooses to drive a car illegally pays the punishment for it if they get caught doing it.

You can choose not to have a car. But you really can't choose not to have a body. And it has to be your body, for better or worse...

Quoting starac17 (Reply 16):
  If insurance wasn't the word used here, anyone who did something like this would be a thief and everyone would want that person in jail. If a corporation tried this crap in China (not that I'm suggesting China is better) and the government found out about it the ones responsible would be literally shot in the middle of Tiananmen Square

I will agree with this though. Insurance companies have gotten away with too much for too long. That's my big beef here. All we've really accomplished is to subsidize the the troublemakers...


User currently offlinepgh234 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 796 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days ago) and read 3606 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 17):
Oh and your example was a little sensationalist IMHO.

Well, that was not a fictional example! I am not going to provide a copy of my pay-stub for obvious reasons...but here is the story. My boss called me and thanked me for all of my hard work this year and said there was a 10K bonus check in the mail for me. I was ecstatic...then the check arrived...

$10,000 minus...
FICA: $765
Fed WH: $2500
State WH: $300
Local WH: $375
St Umemply: $8

$6052!!!

Then we subtract out of that the endless gas-taxes, amusement-tax, booze-tax, parking-tax, 7% sales-tax and I guarantee you the real number is far under $5000.

If you were a friend in need, or perhaps I was your employer...that is $5000 less that I have to share with you. But at least some horribly inefficient govt bureaucracy has it. Then they give some of it to all of the people leeching off of your tax dollars who sit at home everyday and have nicer cars and clothes than you...

And now my taxes will go even higher...

[Edited 2010-03-25 18:40:05]

[Edited 2010-03-25 18:47:30]

User currently offlineAirStairs From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 487 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days ago) and read 3576 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 10):
But your neighbors are taking care of you to some extent. And because they are you have a massive health infrastructure at your disposal any time it's needed.

I don't want them to take care of me any more than they think appropriate and I will act the same way toward them. The fact is that for most rational people there are rational reasons to help others that have nothing to do with guilt trips or emotionality.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 10):
When it comes to women, cancer strikes all ages harder than men from what I have seen. Breast & uterine cancer -v- testicular & prostate on the male side. So that healthy mother may be 30 days from joining the current cancer patient.

The difference? The woman who has had, say, breast cancer and been through the expensive treatment is going to stay on top of things while the "healthy mother" may not be doing self exams on a monthly basis.

But both need basic health care and both should be covered.

And because insurance is about spreading risk, the ones who present higher risks should pay more for access to the pool.

Quoting starac17 (Reply 16):
Also you have mandates for auto insurance and you shouldn't be able to register a car without having a policy. Anyone who chooses to drive a car illegally pays the punishment for it if they get caught doing it.

But I can choose to not drive. The only way I can get out of the health insurance mandate is to.....not live


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5599 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days ago) and read 3572 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 1):
Wow, a few CEOs lose a couple hundred thousand dollars, when they took millions from the American people. I feel their pain.

Wow, our government is talking about taking money from those that have some money and giving it to those without and you get on your bitchy hobby horse about overpaid CEO's.

That money is coming from me and, God willingly, you. You see, I want everyone in this country to prosper. But, there is no incentive to prosper when you take my money away and give it to someone who (take your pick):
-doesn't work as hard as me
-didn't go to school as long as me
-didn't do as well in school as me
-wasn't as lucky as me
-or just plain didn't catch the same breaks as me

Sometimes life is not fair. It is not up to government to make it so. It is up to government to ensure a level playing field...that's all.

You want to hear about some redistribution? My wife and I have always given a certain percentage of our income to St. Jude's Children's Hospital. Now that Obamacare is taking care of these kids for us, it probably won't happen again. Why? Not because I'm an evil conservative capitalist. Because the government has chosen to take my place as a charitable giver with my own money. Except now, it's not charity...it taxes.

I'm sorry, but this administration and congress and their attempts at making everyone equal will do far reaching damage to more things than my pocketbook. But, I'm really beginning to think that is want they want. I didn't think so at first, but I do now.

They want a welfare, nanny, cradle to grave state where we are dependant on government for everything.

I'm disgusted.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 17):
Dude i'm already bitching about taxes. Just because i'm 20 doesn't mean I don't have taxes deducted from my paycheck as well. What adults like yourself need to realize is that there are just some sacrifices we have to make to allow this country to be more prosperous.

Dude, wait until these folks really get rolling. You'll be lucky to see half.

Taxes don't make a nation prosperous. A nation and its people are made prosperous by innovation and wealth creation. Both of which are destroyed by taxation.

Yes, taxes are necessary to make a country run...but this is ridiculous.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineAirStairs From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 487 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days ago) and read 3552 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 21):
What adults like yourself need to realize is that there are just some sacrifices we have to make to allow this country to be more prosperous.

Let me know how far sacrificing your way to prosperity gets you.


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5599 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days ago) and read 3544 times:

Quoting starac17 (Reply 16):
Also you have mandates for auto insurance and you shouldn't be able to register a car without having a policy. Anyone who chooses to drive a car illegally pays the punishment for it if they get caught doing it.

Want to make the comparison?

You don't have to drive, therefore you don't have to pay car insurance. My parents lived in NY for 25 years, never paid a dime for car insurance. Didn't own a car.

Car Insurance when necessary is a state mandate, not a federal one.

Car insurance does not allow 'pre-existing' conditions.

You can't buy car insurance after the wreck.

I can choose the level of insurance I want, down to the state minimum.

Should I keep going?



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlinestarac17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3400 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days ago) and read 3563 times:

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 18):
You can choose not to have a car. But you really can't choose not to have a body. And it has to be your body, for better or worse...
Quoting AirStairs (Reply 20):
But I can choose to not drive. The only way I can get out of the health insurance mandate is to.....not live

Ok I can't disagree with this when its put this way because both of you are 100% correct. However do you just let uninsured who can't afford to pay cash simply die, there has to be a better way to do things than that.

I personally think the mandate is a way to protect people from their own arrogance and stupidity to not buy health insurance.

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 20):
And because insurance is about spreading risk, the ones who present higher risks should pay more for access to the pool.

They should but there should be a capped maximum possibly based on a set percentage of your income. The main issue I have and this might be insane liberalism but it is that no one should have to lose everything because they get sick.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
25 Post contains images NIKV69 : Last I checked charity was voluntary.
26 pgh234 : Hard-work is how you succeed in the world...you EARN as much as put-in. Or at least that is how it used to be before this age of self-entitlement...n
27 CPH-R : You aren't?
28 fr8mech : These would be the last people I'd want to help. Life is full of choices, making stupid choices should not qualify you for my money.
29 FlyPNS1 : Maybe not, but virtually every first world nation has a relatively high tax rate. The only countries with low tax rates tend to be 2nd/3rd world. And
30 pgh234 : I actually agree with this point for the following reasons: 1) More and more people work for the government. Since they do not produce anything of ad
31 fr8mech : And, just because all those first world nations have jumped into the abyss of debt, we have to? Please, that reasoning is specious.
32 Post contains images CPH-R : Nah, you managed the debt hole just fine without healthcare
33 fr8mech : Yup, we did. And now we're just digging deeper and deeper. But, what the hey...we'll all be equal...in mediocrity and dis-satisfaction.
34 starac17 : I agree with this, however there comes a point where hard work becomes counter productive but this is an entirely different discussion altogether. I
35 fr8mech : Agreed. I support deficit spending. You're right, it can be an investment. But, entitlements, by and large, are not investments. In order for a natio
36 FlyPNS1 : And its specious logic for you to assume all first world nations with high taxes are in an "abyss of debt." Australia has taxation that is high by Am
37 starac17 : It can be done if you have a resource valued a commodity like oil that is the property of the state that can generate enough revenue for the governme
38 PPVRA : Oh no, they didn't "take" ANYTHING. They exchanged it, and everybody is better off because of it. They are wealthy because they CREATE things you don
39 seb146 : Here's a thought: if you don't like "redistribution of wealth" how about not paying taxes AND never EVER calling police or fire or driving or walking
40 fr8mech : Social Security, Medicare, VA Benefits, federal retirements and pensions, food stamps, unemployment, the Health Care junk, the perscription deal Bush
41 US330 : I don't object to the concept of "redistribution of wealth" as long as the word "private" comes in front of it. If you want to redistribute your money
42 DocLightning : Ah, but you don't assume the risk. You cannot pay $100K and so you wind up not paying it. A better system would be this: you can't pay up front and y
43 Iairallie : Like when?? What a silly argument. How about letting me opt out of paying the portion of taxes that goes to fund things not in any of the above catag
44 RJ111 : Can you explain what the difference is between having a government run fire and police service is to having a government run healthcare system? To me
45 AverageUser : Easy. You lose your house in a fire. Houses are known to catch fire, for one reason or another, and sometimes to burn down completely. That represent
46 Dreadnought : Sorry that argument does not hold water. That is risk attenuation only. As you said, it's win-win, because all participants benefit in some way, eith
47 Baroque : WADR gotta run a slight correction there fp, millions were trousered, and that was a tad irritating but what was catastrophic was the hundreds of bil
48 Flighty : To some extent. But with health care, it can be win-win. This is why most jobs offer subsidized "group health insurance" instead of paying the cash o
49 DfwRevolution : If I am liable for a debt I cannot repay, I don't get to shrug my shoulders and apologize. Someone is going to liquidate my assets and get as much as
50 AverageUser : Well, it's "risk attenuation" only is you underinsure. The basic idea of an insurance is that you'll be compensated for the going value, and therefor
51 DocLightning : And then you declare bankruptcy and you are protected. And then you show up in the hospital having a heart attack and you get treated again. This "ch
52 FlyPNS1 : Maybe not, but then you are back to the idea of determining someones value to society based mostly on their ability to produce income. Sounds like in
53 starac17 : If you constantly work hard trying to succeed financially and are working extra hours to get ahead that is good for you to get ahead and make more mo
54 474218 : You got away better then I did: I got a $15,000 bonus took home $7,800. Will Rogers had a statment that is so true: "Just be thankful you don't get a
55 Ken777 : The infrastructure is in place when you need it because other people have invested in developing it. For you and for others. Wow! "Bitchy hobby horse
56 fr8mech : That's a cop out and taking the why me attitude. Intelligence, effort, work ethic, etc. most certainly do have something to do with the success someo
57 DfwRevolution : It protects certain assets, yes. But not everything. The tax cuts did not cause the financial bubble. Disastrous monetary policy under the leadership
58 Flighty : Good. That will be so much better than the private insurance death panels that take place each day right now. I think you are onto something. The hea
59 pgh234 : There are plenty of dumb rich people out there who have money safety nets and plenty of smart poor people who are busting their a$$ to become a produ
60 PPVRA : The uninsured right now, largely those who cannot afford it to begin with, will still not be paying for healthcare. As with any progressive taxation
61 Post contains images AGM100 : These politicians do not care about your health or your well being .... they only want to raise your taxes and they use this issue in order to do it.
62 RJ111 : Surely this recession is the very essence of unregulated, short-sighted capitalism taking its natural course...
63 PPVRA : I'm pretty sure pgh234 gave you a list of things that one cannot consider non-intervention. That list is not a list of new things under Obama.
64 FlyPNS1 : Maybe, but there is little in history to support this. There was far less bureaucracy 100 years ago, yet most of the population was far worse off. Th
65 AirStairs : Compensation packages are not an indicator of profitability. As I've offered earlier, I could start with the airlines and work my way down the list o
66 PPVRA : Of course, over the years we have discovered and created many new things that makes our lives better. That's not true at all. Ask any Brazilian that
67 Pyrex : Ahem *Switzerland* ahem. Yes, those damn Swissies and all the oil they're swimming in. Bubbles? No, who would have thought of such a thing. Capitalis
68 Post contains images BMI727 : Then what would you call the Roaring 20s? That is where Asia comes in. Nor should they be. Take an analogy of a struggling sports team. What will the
69 Aaron747 : That's nothing - my father is getting a ~$750,000 severance package from Sun Microsystems next month as a result of their merger with Oracle, and wil
70 fr8mech : This is one place where I break from Conservatism. I believe that higher education is a public good and should be made available and subsidized by th
71 RJ111 : Thanks for that insult. However, i don't believe i am the one not thinking i believe you are the one not thinking outside the box. You could in theor
72 EA CO AS : My wife lost her job at Sun Microsystems as well...although her severance package wasn't as generous as your dad's! She saw about 40% of the package
73 Post contains links fr8mech : You could, but why would you? Police powers are a power of the State. The State can detain and prosecute. The police are what is called a public good
74 RJ111 : And does healthcare not do that?
75 AverageUser : They don't generate any profits. Just like people have their lives (plus some may have property) that will be protected by society, so will people ha
76 Aaron747 : He was a junior marketing VP for SE Asia. Did your wife have to wait over a year for the closure deadline to determine her status as well? It was a w
77 Baroque : So you are telling me that CEO Pyrex was dumb enough not to realise that the CDOs were essentially a game of pass the parcel and if you play PtP a fe
78 seb146 : So, if large numbers of people are starving or homeless or to sick to move, that is fine? How can someone weak from hunger because they have no money
79 Pyrex : Precisely. If profits are the evil thing you seem to think they are then logically all consumers should have migrated to mutual insurance companies (
80 AverageUser : I've not said anything about evil. The laws of capitalism dictate that some of the profits will go towards things like marketing, PR, buying politici
81 flanker : Excellent
82 AverageUser : Fine, but markets do not behave rationally and in an expected fashion! If they did, everyone with a pocket calculator would be a millionaire. Markets
83 Dreadnought : Yes, they do act rationally. It's just that nobody has all the information on all the different variables. That is too, but there is rationality behi
84 Flighty : They are so much more than that. Psychology (and liquidity) influence asset prices. Speculative asset prices in particular. But the fundamental value
85 AverageUser : Yes, the unknown variables including the future behaviour of other investors! No problem, should you happen to be a major god or deity! The only rati
86 Flighty : You are right predicting future technology is not easy. But consider these successful companies: Apple, IBM, Microsoft, Intel, Oracle, Google, Facebo
87 fr8mech : No, health care does not. Health care is a private good. It really benefits just one person. How does my having health care affect your quality of li
88 Post contains images AirframeAS : Arn't we already required, by law, to have auto insurance if you own/drive a car??
89 BMI727 : Yes, but you can choose not to drive a car. I suppose that you could choose not to live in order to get around the mandated health insurance.
90 EA CO AS : No, she was an Executive Admin supporting regional account execs, (and later, an RSSR) so she got her package right away - her second one, actually,
91 Aaron747 : Hilarious parallel - par for the course at Sun. My dad had actually gone through two RIFs previously in director positions but kept coming back becau
92 wn700driver : The problem with that logic is the assumption that everything in the Healthcare industry (from insurance to education to a physician's hourly rate to
93 Flighty : Correct. I am pretty young, so my attitude is that health care in the USA should be a lot better, but also dirt cheap. Drugs are a technology that ca
94 pgh234 : To make the above statement even more true...please insert "bureaucratic government agency" anywhere that you see "health care"[Edited 2010-03-27 23:
95 Baroque : Now do not let a few facts get in your way of apparently not knowing what strategies some companies did adopt. They would not have put it in those te
96 seb146 : Here is one basic tenant of the Democrats: They want everyone to pay for and have access to education, food, shelter, and health care. Because, let's
97 Flighty : Cut it all, I say. Fund doctors and hospitals, nurses and nursing homes, and generic medicine, that's it. For the rest of the sector, they can go be
98 pgh234 : Well, I was thinking of something more productive and value creating, such as designing more efficient machines to dig ditches that run on some alter
99 nwaesc : When did we become a nation of such self-interested pricks? Helping each other up/out is what made this country great. The "I got mine, so f**k you" m
100 Post contains links Dreadnought : Agreed. You are free to donate to a charitable organization or hospital, as millions upon millions of our countrymen do every day. Why do liberals co
101 nwaesc : Good question. Maybe one will answer on here...
102 Post contains images pgh234 : agreed...it is very sad. I didn't think i'd feel this bitter about it until I was old...not 24. It just keeps getting worse.
103 AGM100 : Self motivated , and succesful people do more to help society in the long run . All of the governemnt programs in the world do not work without these
104 seb146 : I can't answer for myself, but it could go back to: It could be that so-called liberals "bitch" about it because perhaps they see "conservatives" goi
105 nwaesc : Maybe, maybe not. That said, being successful and/or motivated is a completely separate concept from "I don't care about my neighbors."
106 STT757 : $700 Billion dollars a year are being shifted from the US economy to countries like Saudi Arabia and Venezuela, all because we can't find a way to get
107 fr8mech : Supports the conomy. Supports the car industry. Supports the retail industry. Supports the vacation industry and recharges ye olde batteries. Taxes a
108 AGM100 : No ..its not maybe or maybe not. If you do not have earners , investors , inventors and risk takers you dont have taxes ... no taxes no programs. See
109 Post contains images Baroque : Full marks there, go to the top of the anally retentive class for that answer and give out the pencils. Now that is generosity I can understand. So t
110 fr8mech : Generic medicine? So you want to go back to bleeding and leeches? Or palpitation as the only way to 'visualize' an internal injury? Or did you mean g
111 nwaesc : Fantastic rant, but not what I asked. Do you think that being successful/motivated is equal to the "I don't care about my neighbors" statement from e
112 seb146 : Supports the vacation industry in other parts of the world, usually. Bahamas, Jamaica, Mexico, Europe... From clothes made in China and Indonesia Fro
113 fr8mech : And Florida, Alabama, Hawaii, South Carolina, California, etc. Sold in stores operating in the US, employing Americans. And Detroit, Louisville, Oakv
114 RJ111 : Really? I'd say the more people/buildings you want to provide with adequate police/fire coverage the more police/fire stations/staff you'll need.
115 fr8mech : Yes, as population grows, the need grows, but every additional firefighter or police officer you provide, benefits everyone, not just those who drove
116 RJ111 : That's only because of the current arrangement though. If it were all public then every new bed, every new piece of medical equipment, every new docto
117 fr8mech : Actually, they do now. Understand that there are thousands of government run hospitals, just not federal government. And, yes, every bed added can be
118 RJ111 : Well, I was talking about healthcare...
119 Baroque : And which part of the US can I reside in where the Government will not take taxes from me to pay for a policeman I don't need, or a war I don't need
120 Slider : They earned it. It's part of the free market economy. For now. Now I'm not an advocate of rapacious capitalism, but it's not my job or role to say wh
121 Post contains images BMI727 : I don't understand how doing well financially automatically makes one a bad person who is hell bent on making sure that poor people stay that way. I
122 AGM100 : In a perfect world if everyone spent the majority of the time working towards self improvement and improving they're own financial situation ...it wo
123 EA772LR : Prosperity and large governments don't go hand in hand. You are mistaken if you feel the Gub'ment can provide prosperity. Furthermore, the government
124 fr8mech : Taxation is important and required in order for a society to function. You will not hear me bitch about my paying taxes for the essential functions o
125 Yellowstone : Defending the United States, yes. Nation-building in Iraq, or propping up right-wing anti-Communist governments in Southeast Asia, not so much. Europ
126 Post contains images EA772LR : Europe has several countries who are broke. What are you smoking? You know, the stuff that makes liberals here think that Europe is such a better mod
127 Post contains links Dreadnought : Where have you been lately? Have you looked at Greece? Spain? http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news...d-economies-imf-20100331-rbu9.html
128 fr8mech : Any war is a function of government and the administration in office. Not happy about a war...vote the administration out. Oh...wait...how did that w
129 Post contains links NIKV69 : Just watch this, totally scary http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUvwKVvp3-o
130 EA772LR : Yeah I remember that. Between, this, a radio interview Obama did back in 2001 in which he claimed that there weren't enough reparations for Black peo
131 Post contains links Baroque : In brief, too brief, because I need a bit of it myself after a painful visit to the gnasher basher yesterday, it is the benefit of the commons. http:
132 Yellowstone : Two responses... 1) Yes, some European countries' governments are in serious financial trouble. Most European countries' governments are not. 2) Ther
133 pgh234 : ...and: 1) Why are these governments going broke? 2) Once these governments go broke...will this not have a negative effect on the prosperity of thei
134 Slider : Great post. Very spot on.... I wouldn't go that far anymore either. The immense cost of regulation, extremely high taxation, environmental compliance
135 Post contains images Baroque : Well that is one point of view, another would be that the parsimonious nature of the inhabitants has so far eroded the tax base as to make the state
136 fr8mech : No, its government is broken. Care to explain why a state with such a strong economy is broke? Could it be the heavy weight of enttilements and over
137 AverageUser : Just sell the whole lot on eBay by pay-it-now.
138 Yellowstone : The government (not the state as a whole!) is broke because of the crazy voter initiative system there, where major fiscal decisions are put in the h
139 AirframeAS : Well, I have that attitude and I buy health insurance through my employer for myself. Keyword here: for myself. It is for me and for my own use only.
140 AverageUser : I have got a national insurance card that even better: mine, mine, mine mine, mine, mine, mine, mine and mine alone nine times.
141 AGM100 : Agree with you .... tradition is a important element to the conservative. Social Conservatives (SOCONS) most likely would not care as much about the
142 Post contains images Baroque : Please pay attention Yellowstone, these are all synonyms. Marxism, Leninism, Socialism, Stalinism, Communism, Atheism and bad (if not totally dreadfu
143 AGM100 : Republicanism is more to the point not majority democracy but representative democracy . Socialism and communism end up at the same destination so wh
144 Baroque : There you go Y, socialism equals communism. Good grief Charlie Brown (AGM100) do you really believe what you wrote? Have not noticed that Socialist g
145 AverageUser : Perhaps you'd need new ways of working together instead of breaking down your social fabric even more?
146 Yellowstone : Are you really trying to argue that Sweden and the Soviet Union are "the same destination"?
147 Flighty : Agreed. The union mentality that every union member makes a $75,000 pension plus medical, after retiring at age 59, is totally insane. They need not
148 RJ111 : Sweden has a far too high GDP per head to be Socialist. Have you not been following the thread? Socialism = economic failure remember?
149 Dreadnought : And we are. The ones with such packages mostly work for the government (SEIU anyone), and those pensions are the bulk of the US's $100+ trillion unfu
150 Baroque : And the banker wankers doling themselves out billions by the bucketload are absolutely OK by you one has to suppose - or to use your words, totally s
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