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Greek Collapse?  
User currently offlinegreasespot From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (4 years 8 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 7123 times:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/Greeks+...ity+anger+grows/2957875/story.html

Greek transport workers walked off the job on Tuesday to protest against austerity measures and labour unions called a national strike for next week, piling more pressure on the government as it struggles with a debt crisis.

Hundreds of striking public transport workers marched in Athens chanting "Hands off our salaries", while buses, trams and metro trains stopped operating for six hours.

Later, about 2,000 public and private sector workers, students and anarchists marched to parliament holding red flags and banners reading "To the streets!" and "Out with the IMF!"

Read more: http://www.calgaryherald.com/Greeks+...s/2957875/story.html#ixzz0mL5ZKqX5



Now I am far from a financial guru..But In this case I do not see what choice Greece has other than jack taxes to a point that would kill the country. they have been downgraded to Junk status



GS

169 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineflanker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (4 years 8 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 7093 times:

I don't understand how rioting and calling strikes at THIS TIME will help anything. Only makes things worse IMO.

Sometimes i cant stand the mentality of the balkans/sse Europe.


User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (4 years 8 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 7068 times:

Quoting greasespot (Thread starter):
Now I am far from a financial guru..But In this case I do not see what choice Greece has other than jack taxes to a point that would kill the country. they have been downgraded to Junk status

They don't have to worry, the EU will supply them with financial aid, the largest percentage of which will be paid by Germany, and the Greek can continue their life as usual   .


User currently offlinegreasespot From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (4 years 8 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 7034 times:

But will Germany? From over here it sounds like it is not a given.


I Greece about to become a new "third" world Country?
GS


User currently offlineSabena332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (4 years 8 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 7009 times:

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 2):
and the Greek can continue their life as usual

Indeed, the "Mit Tzatziki kostet funfzig cent extra!" sentence will always come from them.  

Parick


User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (4 years 8 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 6989 times:

Quoting greasespot (Reply 3):
But will Germany? From over here it sounds like it is not a given.

Well, Merkel's been playing hardball with the EU, but all signs point to the EU still finding a way to make Germany pay, claiming the usual BS, ie "EU is a collective", "One country not going along with the others is a threat to economic stability", and so on. Germany won't have much of choice.


User currently offlineoa260 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (4 years 8 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 6986 times:

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 2):
will be paid by Germany, and the Greek can continue their life as usual   .

Sorry please quote your source ? Tell me how much everyday workers will get cut in their pay packets? You obviously know more than the people who are seeing huge pay cuts in all sectors. The one thing that has shined through in this is how arrogant Germany are. One reason why I hope the UK never joins the Euro or ceases more powers to Berlin or Brussels.

Quoting flanker (Reply 1):
Sometimes i cant stand the mentality of the balkans/sse Europe.

Its Europe in general , I dont support strikes but just look at the strikes over Europe in the last months and especially the Aviation industry , another BA one on the way apparantly so its wide spread.

Quoting greasespot (Reply 3):
I Greece about to become a new "third" world Country?

Nope they will recover they will just have to knuckle down for 5 years and will probably be better for it. The government need to be strong and focus and dont let strikes deter them. By Greek standards the protests have been low key apart from a few riots and arrests. Most Greeks accept the bitter pill that must be taken.

Dont forget over the years the infrastructure has been modernised and Greece is well placed to survive. Roads, public transport,airports,ports,communications networks all upgraded so they could have not had all this and still been in this debt crisis.


User currently offlinenewark777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (4 years 8 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 6981 times:

Quoting greasespot (Thread starter):

Now I am far from a financial guru..But In this case I do not see what choice Greece has other than jack taxes to a point that would kill the country. they have been downgraded to Junk status

The problem is that a non EU country would be able to let its currency devalue to an equilibrium level in relation to trade partners. The economic downturn would still hurt, but this would allow the country to get back on track quicker and with less pain. For obvious reasons, this can't happen under the current EU currency system.

Quoting flanker (Reply 1):
I don't understand how rioting and calling strikes at THIS TIME will help anything. Only makes things worse IMO.

Well, they think it can help them, not the country. An entitled culture at its worst.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 2):

They don't have to worry, the EU will supply them with financial aid, the largest percentage of which will be paid by Germany, and the Greek can continue their life as usual

This case just screams moral hazard.

The ironic part of all this is that Portugal and Ireland will have to help pay Greece under any EU bailout plan, while they are suffering under many of the same issues, just because Greece can't get their house in order. Of course it is proportional to their economic size, but they still must contribute.


User currently offlineoa260 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (4 years 8 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 6956 times:

Quoting newark777 (Reply 7):
Ireland will have to help pay Greece under any EU bailout plan, while they are suffering under many of the same issues

Ireland will give 450m. And yes your right there are huge problems here also . Strikes also and still some surprises to come. Germany may have to bailout a few more EU countries and thats what they are worried about. Portugal's credit ranking downgraded , Spanish stocks plunged 4% and Italy had trouble selling bonds. Theres alot more to come .


User currently offlinefr8mech From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (4 years 8 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 6869 times:

To paraphrase Thatcher: Socialism is great until you run out of other people's money. Greece has run out of other people's money. A low retirement age, a nanny state, a population that is not replacing itself, a demographic shifting to the aged. These all spell disaster.

My dad (been living back in Greece since 1994) has had a sudden urge to visit the States (he's 83 and hates traveling) and has started to send his grand-children and children monetary gifts...large (for him) inheritance sized sums. He won't admit it, but he's concerned.

At least the family and I get to see him much earlier than expected.


User currently offlineOA412 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (4 years 8 months 4 days ago) and read 6830 times:

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 2):
and the Greek can continue their life as usual

So you have intimate knowledge of the situation in Greece and the fact that no changes will be made? There are major changes happening as we speak, so I don't understand where you're getting this idea that life is going to continue "as usual" for the Greeks. As OA260 said, the thing that has become most apparent in all of this has been German arrogance.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 9):
Greece has run out of other people's money. A low retirement age, a nanny state, a population that is not replacing itself, a demographic shifting to the aged. These all spell disaster.

One of the most important (if not the most important) underlying problems in this situation (and one that keeps being ignored by most commentators) is the issue of tax evasion. The upper classes in Greece have avoided paying taxes for decades, and the resulting loss of income to the state is very much responsible for the current situation. Stories are surfacing daily about people living in exclusive suburbs and driving very expensive vehicles who were declaring an annual income of $5000. In addition, stores of corruption with the Greek version of the IRS are surfacing as well. Frankly, the whole taxation system needs overhauling and everyone of the employees needs to be shown the door, and hopefully that will be one of Papandreou's reforms.

Quoting flanker (Reply 1):
Sometimes i cant stand the mentality of the balkans/sse Europe.

Strikes have been happening all over Europe, this is hardly limited to Greece at this point.

Quoting newark777 (Reply 7):
The ironic part of all this is that Portugal and Ireland will have to help pay Greece under any EU bailout plan, while they are suffering under many of the same issues, just because Greece can't get their house in order. Of course it is proportional to their economic size, but they still must contribute.

Whenever the relief packages for those two are approved (and IMHO its inevitable), Greece will have to help with the bailout of those countries.

Quoting newark777 (Reply 7):
Well, they think it can help them, not the country. An entitled culture at its worst.

IMHO, it's very easy for us call people "entitled' until its our paycheck that faces decimation, then the sky begins to fall. I don't disagree that several changes have to be made in Greece, and as painful as they may be, wage cuts will have to be part of that equation. However, keep in mind that wages in Greece are already quite low in comparison to much of Europe, and any further drop in pay hurts quite a bit.


User currently offlinenewark777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (4 years 8 months 4 days ago) and read 6816 times:

Quoting OA412 (Reply 10):

IMHO, it's very easy for us call people "entitled' until its our paycheck that faces decimation, then the sky begins to fall. I don't disagree that several changes have to be made in Greece, and as painful as they may be, wage cuts will have to be part of that equation. However, keep in mind that wages in Greece are already quite low in comparison to much of Europe, and any further drop in pay hurts quite a bit.

I really can't comment on the wage conditions of government workers in Greece, except to compare it to what's happening back here in NJ. Thousands have lost jobs, taken pay cuts, and lost benefits, but when it's time for government workers (in this case teachers) to face a similar fate, they act they are being persecuted, and have the audacity to still ask for RAISES. It's enough to make you sick.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 10):

Whenever the relief packages for those two are approved (and IMHO its inevitable), Greece will have to help with the bailout of those countries.

In terms of debt, the other countries are in better shape, but it's certainly headed in that direction if condition don't turn around. And now people are talking about Spain being the next in trouble, which is quite larger than the others already mentioned.


User currently offlineRevelation From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6673 times:

Quoting OA412 (Reply 10):
As OA260 said, the thing that has become most apparent in all of this has been German arrogance.

It's not arrogant to be pissed off at a sibling who needs to be bailed out, it's pretty natural.

By everyone's admission here, Greece needs major reforms to get in line with the commitments Greece itself made to be a part of the EU.

I've bailed out a few relatives, and I can't say I was all that pissed off, but I can say I really wondered why they didn't get their sh*t together till it was too late.

Greece need to live within their means. One thing that comes to mind immediately is the Olympics. All the work to airports, subways, atheletic facilities were grand, but while it was happening I kept saying to myself "how can they afford all this?". I guess we know the answer now, they really couldn't.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 10):
One of the most important (if not the most important) underlying problems in this situation (and one that keeps being ignored by most commentators) is the issue of tax evasion. The upper classes in Greece have avoided paying taxes for decades, and the resulting loss of income to the state is very much responsible for the current situation. Stories are surfacing daily about people living in exclusive suburbs and driving very expensive vehicles who were declaring an annual income of $5000. In addition, stores of corruption with the Greek version of the IRS are surfacing as well. Frankly, the whole taxation system needs overhauling and everyone of the employees needs to be shown the door, and hopefully that will be one of Papandreou's reforms.

The thing to do is to start to put the tax evaders into jail. Just a few key examples will do. Then grant some sort of 'tax amnesty' where fines for missed tax payments will be reduced or eliminated. The money will flood in. If the EU were smart, they'd make serious tax reform a part of the bailout they are offering.


User currently offlineNAV20 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6633 times:

Quoting newark777 (Reply 7):
The problem is that a non EU country would be able to let its currency devalue to an equilibrium level in relation to trade partners.

I think you've hit the nail on the head, newark777.

The EEC seems less and less like a 'community.' I'm afraid that it begins to look more and more like the 'German Empire'..............

Germany has always believed in a 'strong currency.' It could afford to do that, since their manufactured goods were (and more or less remain) of such wonderful quality that people elsewhere were prepared to pay more than the 'going rate' for them. For example, Mercedes cars......

But that strategy will not (will NEVER) work for the 'PIIGS' - Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece, and Spain. Still less will it work for the dozen or so disunited and bankrupt Balkan nations that the EU has recently 'absorbed.'

Many years back I moved my whole family from Britain to Australia - specifically because I disliked and distrusted the EEC and doubted from the start that it made any economic sense at all. I don't expect that they will shortly rush up and thank me (I didn't bring them up that way  ) - but I still think that I did the right thing by them.......


User currently offlineRevelation From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6590 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 13):
'German Empire'

Well, at least you didn't go as far as calling it the Fourth Reich....

I thought the Germans complained that it was the French running the place.


User currently offlinejanmnastami From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6542 times:

I don't understand Germany. Obviously Greece will have to cut its budget, but in this moment Europe can't say "no, we won't help you" to Greece. Germany has really a strange concept of the EU.

Italy will give 5 billion euro.


User currently offlinenewark777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6511 times:

Quoting janmnastami (Reply 15):
I don't understand Germany. Obviously Greece will have to cut its budget, but in this moment Europe can't say "no, we won't help you" to Greece. Germany has really a strange concept of the EU.

Well, they could, and Greece would default on May 19th.

But it looks like now, despite the opposition among the German citizens, that Germany will pass the bailout resolution this week/early next week.

Now it appears S&P has downgraded Spain down to AA as well. Just more bad news for the region.

BTW, Has anyone here watched Arrested Development? The EU has really seemed like the Bluth family through all this, with Germany being Michael.  Smile

[Edited 2010-04-28 08:44:44]

User currently offlinejanmnastami From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6480 times:

Quoting newark777 (Reply 16):
Well, they could, and Greece would default on May 19th.

I think that in the remote case Germany decides not to help Greece, other European countries would take Germany's place in the loan (about 8 billion).

I agree with you, in the end Germany will grant the loan to Greece. Germany has the right to request more efforts to Greece in the restructuring plan (and we should also consider the opposition Merkel faces to give money to Greece), but currently it seems it's acting like a prima donna.


User currently offlineAM744 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6443 times:

Quoting newark777 (Reply 7):
The problem is that a non EU country would be able to let its currency devalue to an equilibrium level in relation to trade partners.
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 13):
Germany has always believed in a 'strong currency.' It could afford to do that, since their manufactured goods were (and more or less remain) of such wonderful quality that people elsewhere were prepared to pay more than the 'going rate' for them. For example, Mercedes cars......

Exactly. The problem with the Euro is that some of the countries that take part in it don't provide the high tech/quality goods and services for which you HAVE to pay in Euros whether you like it or not. France and Germany have unique products they can afford to charge for in Euros. Mostly everything else can be bought elsewhere in rupees, yuan or pesos.


User currently offlineRevelation From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 6431 times:

Quoting janmnastami (Reply 15):
I don't understand Germany. Obviously Greece will have to cut its budget, but in this moment Europe can't say "no, we won't help you" to Greece.

I think they are just saying that there needs to be strict conditions attached to the money. The same thing I'd say to a relative that needed a bailout. Or at least try to say, since one really doesn't have that much control in such situations, as the EU is finding out.

Some interesting stuff from: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100428...s_afp/stocksforexbondseurope/print

Quote:

"The downgrading of Portuguese and Greek debt has spooked investors, as there is a very real fear that other European countries could be downgraded too," said analyst Owen Ireland at ODL Securities.

In the foreign exchange market on Wednesday, the European single currency hit a new one-year dollar low.

The euro plunged to 1.3143 dollars -- a low last seen in April 2009 -- as traders fretted over a debt crisis that could spread to other fiscally-challenged nations like Spain, Italy and Ireland.

Seems we now need to refer to the PIIGS.

Quote:

"Along with the spike in peripheral euro-area bond yields, the euro also continues to weaken, falling below the 1.32-dollar level to its lowest level in a year."

That should help Airbus, no?

Quote:

Reeling from a debt and public deficit crisis, Greece has appealed for emergency loans totalling 45 billion euros (60 billion dollars) from the European Union and the International Monetary Fund.

The funds would be made availaible on condition that Greece implemented tough austerity measures, currently the subject of talks with the EU and the IMF.

As I was saying..

Quote:

The IMF is considering raising its Greek financial aid by 10 billion euros (13 billion dollars), having already offered 15 billion as part of the emergency loans, the Financial Times reported Wednesday.

In response the latest news, the European Union has called an emergency summit on Greece, with eurozone leaders set to meet next month.

EU President Herman Van Rompuy said leaders from the 16 nations using the single currency would meet in Brussels "by around May 10" to try to agree how to set up a massive rescue operation.

Speaking in Tokyo, Van Rompuy said there was "no question" of Greece defaulting.

GFT analyst David Morrison said that German Chancellor Angela Merkel would not want to hold the EU summit prior to this date.

"Of course it is the day after the German regional elections and Angela Merkel dare not OK a Greek bailout before then because she will get hammered," Morrison told AFP.

"But the likelihood is that the bond markets will force quicker action," he added.

Clearly Ms. Merkel has a tightrope to walk.

Quote:

Across in Athens on Wednesday, strikes and protests erupted as its crisis-hit economy reeled from another scathing downgrade of its debt and the stock exchange took emergency measures to deter speculators.

Amidst a growing recession, a general strike has been called for May 5 against austerity cuts that the government is enforcing to slash the rampant public deficit and debt worth nearly 300 billion euros (399 billion dollars).

Morrison added: "One thing is for sure -- Greece needs considerably more than the 45 billion euros on offer.

"Having heard that restructuring was not even being considered yesterday, the market has jumped forward and is now looking at outright default."

Oil prices also sank on Wednesday, shaken by the Greek crisis and the strong US currency, which makes dollar-priced crude more expensive for foreign buyers.

Quite a turn of events...


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6357 times:

Greece credit lowered
Portugal credit rating lowered

now
Spain credit rating lowered

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100428/...n_bi_ge/eu_europe_financial_crisis

so which EU country is going to be next on the list?
Italy? France? another EU country?

place your bets!  

me thinks the whole of the EU is bugged as they are all so deep in debt...  


User currently offlinenewark777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6347 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 20):
place your bets!

Or buy some CDS's. Probably a bigger payday if you get it right.  


User currently offlinelewis From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6255 times:

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 2):

They don't have to worry, the EU will supply them with financial aid, the largest percentage of which will be paid by Germany, and the Greek can continue their life as usual .

Just the usual inaccurate perceptions from Germany. Say anything you want about how we lied with our finances (although the past couple of years we were under "EU supervision" so go figure) or how corruption is high, but stop with this nonsense I keep hearing from over there about people working less than the EU, people getting higher pensions than the rest of the EU, people getting more holidays than the rest of the EU and that every single Greek is a tax evader partying all day on the beach. Its getting old dude and I can prove you wrong for every single one of them.

And no, we will not go on as usual. With what is pre-announced, I will lose 20% of my income (income which is around half of what my German colleagues get in Munich at the same company), I will lose a lot from my future pension, I will be paying 6% more on VAT and I am already spending 50% more for fuel. And that's just based on the first measures that will be taken. Plus, if you have ever been here you would know how expensive it is and to try and live with an 800 euro salary which will soon be reduced makes it even worse. Its not only sunshine and the beach here... at least for non German tourists.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 12):
It's not arrogant to be pissed off at a sibling who needs to be bailed out, it's pretty natural.

As they should be. Maybe Frau Merkel should be more aggressive towards past and present politicians about their lying to the EU instead of shaking hands with them at photo-opps around Europe. I am all for Germany being tough with Greece, maybe its the only way some reforms will be pushed. What pisses me off is the perception of the average German for the average Greek that we have a good thing here, based on inaccuracies in the German & international press these past few months.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 12):
The thing to do is to start to put the tax evaders into jail.

That's exactly it. In the latest polls, the majority here has accepted that we need the reforms to go on, which means that most Greeks understand the situation, despite what our fellow Germans think. I for one am ready to bite the bullet for things that I am not at fault, as long as the people (corrupt politicians, tax evaders, bribers & bribed) get thrown in jail and have their assets and those of their families seized immediately. I think it is time to make an example of them so that this comes to a stop now and never starts over again/


User currently offlineRevelation From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 6188 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 22):
I am all for Germany being tough with Greece, maybe its the only way some reforms will be pushed. What pisses me off is the perception of the average German for the average Greek that we have a good thing here, based on inaccuracies in the German & international press these past few months.

Thanks for sharing your point of view. I can imagine these changes are going to be very hard to deal with.

Quoting lewis (Reply 22):

That's exactly it. In the latest polls, the majority here has accepted that we need the reforms to go on, which means that most Greeks understand the situation, despite what our fellow Germans think. I for one am ready to bite the bullet for things that I am not at fault, as long as the people (corrupt politicians, tax evaders, bribers & bribed) get thrown in jail and have their assets and those of their families seized immediately. I think it is time to make an example of them so that this comes to a stop now and never starts over again/

The problem is the corrupted and the corrupters are the ones in charge. Somehow they need to be bypassed. I'm sure it can be done, but it'd need to be done by total outsiders with nothing to lose or gain by changing the system. Obviously whatever "EU supervision" is, it was not good enough.


User currently offlineLumberton From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 6175 times:

Ambrose Evans-Pritchard's take here.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/c...-Germany-drags-feet-on-rescue.html

Quote:
But Mrs Merkel is treading on eggshells. She faces a crucial election in North Rhine-Westphalia on May 9 that will decide control of the Bundesrat, and risks a court challenge if any rescue breaches the EU’s no 'bail-out clause’. David Marsh, author of 'The Euro: The Politics of the New Global Currency' said the moment of truth has come when Germany must decide whether to accept the burden of propping up Europe’s southern ring or let Greece fail and endanger its strategic investment in Europe’s post-War order.

“There are some senior figures who would like so see the gangrenous leg of Greece chopped off, to set an example. But they want to avoid leaving any German fingerprints on the blood-stained knife,” he said.

An associated press report. Zorba the Greek? That movie again?

Greek debt crisis shows Europe's clash of cultures

Quote:
In trying to explain how Greeks think, some point to Zorba the Greek, the fictional, free-spirited figure of dance. He's not the type to get his finances in order.

"I wouldn't say that all Greeks are Zorba, but part of every Greek is this love of life and this love of enjoyment," said Nikos Dimou, a 75-year-old Greek author who studied in Germany and has been most industrious -- producing 60 titles in all. "The Greeks have a rather negative view about the Germans because they work too much."

Dimou attributes the differences between southern and northern Europe to the lack of a "Protestant work ethic" in the south -- as well as the sun-splashed Mediterranean climate, which slows the pace and encourages corner-cutting. By contrast, Nordic countries have robust public finances, though Iceland's economic spiral in 2008 puts the weather theory to the test.

Greece is a special case, Dimou and others say, because it belongs as much to east as west. Under Byzantine and then Ottoman rule, it skipped the Renaissance and Reformation, the ideas of the French Revolution and the rise of a bourgeois class. Then it played catch-up to the rest of Europe in the nineteenth century.

Now Greece wants $59.8 billion (euro45 billion) from the 16 euro nations as well as the International Monetary Fund. Germany, Europe's largest economy and a model of efficiency, would contribute about a fifth of the cash.

In Germany, a lawmaker fired up debate by calling for Greece to sell its islands to bolster the budget. On Friday, the Bild newspaper showed a picture of Greek prime minister George Papandreou, saying: "Here comes the Greek panhandling for our billions."

Der Spiegel puts the cost of the Greek rescue to a mere 135 billion euros. What price union?

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,691898,00.html

Quote:
The Greek crisis will cost Europe more than expected. On Wednesday, German Economy Minister Rainer Brüderle said the rescue package could cost 135 billion euros over three years, and that the risks for Germany could be far greater than initially anticipated. The opposition says Chancellor Merkel is partly to blame.

The aid package for Greece from the European Union and the International Monetary Fund (IMF) will amount to €135 billion ($179 billion) over the next three years, according to an announcement made Wednesday by German Economy Minister Rainer Brüderle. Under the current arrangement, Germany is supposed to annually contribute €8.4 billion to the package. But, according to Brüderle, the figure could go much higher. "I can't exclude the possibility that the amount will be higher," he told reporters while on a trip in Sao Paolo, Brazil.

Germany's opposition had already stated that Greece would need up to €120 billion over three years. This was the figure that Thomas Oppermann, the head of the parliamentary faction for the center-left Social Democratic Party (SPD), and Jürgen Trittin, the head of the parliamentary faction for the Green Party, had named after meeting earlier Wednesday in Berlin with European Central Bank (ECB) President Jean-Claude Trichet and International Monetary Fund chief Dominique Strauss-Kahn.


25 TheCol : Sounds like the unions are trying to take advantage of the situation. They both are.
26 Lumberton : The French banks are the most exposed to the risk of a Greek default; IIRC its on the order of 25%. So what is France doing to support any bailout?
27 Revelation : Oh my! Such intrigue! Hmm, first we have the Greeks saying the Germans are arrogant for saying the Greeks are lazy, now we have a Greek admitting tha
28 Post contains images gkirk : All I'm going to say about the EU is... haha. (sorry to the Greeks but this was bound to happen with the frogs and gerrys in control of europe)
29 Post contains images lewis : They can come and try and get them if they want. I have heard this from so many Germans, even colleagues that I thought were intelligent. If such a c
30 Post contains images oa260 : Id totally agree with that. Its been going on for way too many years and as Ive said before alot of good will come of this in the end as reforms will
31 blrsea : I wonder why UK's rating hasn't been downgraded. It isn't like they are in the best shape out there.
32 newark777 : Because they aren't in nearly as much trouble as the countries already downgraded.
33 iakobos : PRICED FOR SALE ! the opportunity of a lifetime... Paradisiac island in the middle of the Ionian sea, complete, as is. Antistressos, the pearl of the
34 MD11Engineer : Concerning Mrs. Merkel: There is an important state election coming up next week. The topics during this campaign are mostly about cost cutting at com
35 janmnastami : Budget cuts have been made in all Europe, not only in Germany, but France, Italy and other countries don't seem reluctant to help Greece.
36 Post contains images soon7x7 : Good idea...lets send our Wall Streeters over along with Obama...They'll fix things...their experts at changing systems. By the way, hows the "Stimul
37 MD11Engineer : Well, all of these countries made their cuts BEFORE the Greek crisis and didn´t have a handy scapegoat. Now the help for Greece became a hot topic f
38 Revelation : Note I said "with nothing to lose or gain by changing the system"... That pretty much rules out Wall Streeters, they just wouldn't be interested in s
39 Post contains images NAV20 : Good for you, Revelation! I actually WAS tempted - given the fact that my father had the misfortune to be born in 1900. That meant that he was 18 in
40 blrsea : Looks like it may be the beginning of the end of the euro experiment. If all of the PIIGS countries start defaulting, it will slowly unravel the Euro.
41 PPVRA : Post-war Germany and Anglo countries have traditionally kept their currencies strong, at least in relation to other countries, especially the ones yo
42 newark777 : Of course it is good for them, they get the benefits of the EU and get bailed out when things go bad. The history of weak economies and worthless mon
43 Revelation : Very interesting. I knew very little about WWI till I watched the 8 part WWI documentary that has been running here on the Military Channel. I presum
44 janmnastami : Europe without Italy, Spain and Portugal in the eurozone is unimaginable.
45 iakobos : There is nothing such as a British accent.....the choice spreads over Scottish, Welsh, Irish (immigrants), Lancashire, Nooorwich and London's Eastend
46 Post contains images newark777 : For us in the US, we can tell the Irish and Scottish, but when it comes to all the different British accents, we don't hear them enough and most of t
47 Revelation : Just like there's no such thing as an American accent?
48 LJ : This won't help the PIIGS countries as their debt is denominated in EUR. If they go out the Euro and depreciate their currency, their problems are ev
49 Post contains images NAV20 : As one who was considerably 'inconvenienced' by WW2 and its aftermath, iakobos, I hope that I'm permitted a rather 'sarky' reply. It was a late-1950s
50 Post contains links newark777 : Interesting take on the situation in the NYTimes today. Really takes the EU leaders to task for the whole crisis. As Greek Drama Plays Out, Where Is E
51 okie : Somehow from my perspective this just does not sound much different than the US. Heavens California would have been Tango Uniform trying to pay for al
52 newark777 : The term "Federal Government" is the big difference. What is happening over there is what would happen if all our states had to work together to bail
53 f.pier : Sincerely I don't know how can big expert still trust "the companies which make ratings". They didn't even foresee what was going on 2 years ago....an
54 Post contains images oa260 : I think you misunderstand. Greeks ( normal everyday Greeks) are rioting and angry with the GREEK government. They feel a select few have been able to
55 Revelation : Yep, that matches the description of affairs in the documentary I'm watching. Almost everyone involved say the current bailout will have to grow from
56 Post contains images oa260 : They can go to Corfu or Zakynthos
57 StuckInCA : Your comment about Utopia is hilarious! $0.78 is spent in CA by the federal government for every tax dollar taken out. $2.03 is spent in New Mexico,
58 Andaman : Greece is like an young irresponsible teenager who has lost all his money, got into troubles and the family has no choice but pay... It seems it's ha
59 iakobos : My intervention was sarcastic, I assume you catched the drift. After all their emblem is a proud cock reigning over the chicken house, no match for t
60 oa260 : And many did not , I know very few who did.
61 shamrock604 : Hang on. This Piigs thing is getting way out of hand, and is nothing more than an invented financial term. Ireland took decisive action on its defici
62 Andaman : From the Finnish point of view the difference is that Ireland never needed money from us, now it seems 5,3 million Finns have to support Greece with
63 shamrock604 : I understand that Andaman. But to be fair, you'd like to think the EU would be there to help Finland if it ever got in trouble and I believe it would
64 oa260 : Maybe one day Finland will need help and maybe then the Finns will change their minds. You never know what will happen in the future so just look at
65 newark777 : It has nothing to do with respecting a nationality. And most Americans probably don't even know the difference between Northern Ireland and Ireland.
66 Post contains links janmnastami : "Since joining the EU in 1973 Ireland has received over €17 billion in EU Structural and Cohesion Funds" http://www.ndp.ie/documents/publicat...gen
67 Post contains images oa260 : And FINLAND €2.39 Billon in Aid from the EU , not quite as self sufficient as one might like to think
68 newark777 : And only 3% from the IMF funds. It would surely have been much more had they had to depend on market financing.
69 iakobos : Nothing to do with self-sufficiency, we are talking here about EU cohesion policy funding, channelled through structural funds and cohesion funds. By
70 oa260 : Yes but time and time again we hear on this and other threads about people saying they have to pay this and have to pay that to other countries when
71 Andaman : Yes of course, Greece has to be helped out to protect to Euro system, there is no choice. People are just not pleased Finnish government has been tel
72 Post contains links oa260 : And everyday Greeks are paying for it also :: The toll on the public sector employees and pensioners is to be rather heavy, since the 13th and 14th w
73 shamrock604 : You reffered to the Irish accent as British, which it is not, as Ireland is not in Britain. Two different ethnicties and nationalities. Northern Irel
74 oa260 : Have to agree with you there living on the border myself. You have Newry/Cavan/Monaghan/Dundalk all different accents.
75 janmnastami : Sure, but not every EU country is a net contributor to the EU's budget. That's the difference! Ireland has always been a net recipient and has become
76 shamrock604 : Yes, thats true. But hasnt that investment payed off considering that Ireland is now a wealthier country and will likely re-pay (and then some!) the
77 Post contains links janmnastami : Sure, there are some economically deprived region in southern Italy, but in the complex Italy has always been a net contributor: http://www.eu-oplysn
78 newark777 : No I didn't, you must have misread my post.
79 Post contains links Andaman : Finland has been a net contributor: http://www.eu-oplysningen.dk/euo_en/spsv/all/79/
80 Post contains images oa260 : I didnt say they wernt , they still benefitted from money out of the kitty a few billion worth
81 shamrock604 : Well good for you lot. Now, so are we. So I dont see what the issue is. Here's the deal ; Every country in the EU gets access to the other's markets.
82 MD11Engineer : So basically you want us to give you the money you buy our goods with? Set up a manufacturing industry of your own and don´t just rely on the leeche
83 NAV20 : With respect, shamrock604, I think that those two contrasting comments perfectly illustrate why the EU can never work. An 'economic union' won't, in
84 Post contains links Lumberton : This whole "austerity" thing is not going over well. A rather effective general strike in Greece today and Angela Merkel's sums up the situation rathe
85 offloaded : Well said, apart from I think you meant the EEC. The EFTA is still alive and well. I really don't think many people in the UK are particularly joyful
86 474218 : How about cutting spending?
87 Post contains links newark777 : Not going well indeed. Three people died today when a bank was set on fire in Athens: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/06/world/europe/06greece.html?hp
88 Post contains links oa260 : Three dead as Greece protest turns violent At least three people have been killed in the Greek capital as protesters set fire to a bank during a gener
89 Post contains images NAV20 : True, offloaded - you're quite right that the EEC ("European Economic Community") preceded the "European Union." That was really my point - an 'econo
90 offloaded : Oops, quite right. Billion. Unreal amount of money. In all of these type of protests there seems to be a small but significant minority of individual
91 iakobos : Tugs, usually in their teens, acting in small gangs and looking at every opportunity to give free rein to their frustration. Though they are well kno
92 janmnastami : In my opinion, these protests are the best way to kill Greece.
93 LJ : As far as i'm aware, the only salaries going down are those of civil servants. Though this will result in lower purcahsing power in the short term, i
94 L410Turbolet : If the state struggles to pay its own bills in the first place and as a result of that is forced to expensively borrow money, reducing the pay (of th
95 iakobos : I am not so sure about this. Can someone here give us some input as to how much return (for the State or other gov-prov-municipal administrations) is
96 blrsea : The govt gets just a small percentage of salaries back as taxes. If the govt paid say $10000 extra per year, around 1/4th goes towards taxes ( not co
97 iakobos : Might be the case in India but certainly not in the EU.
98 blrsea : Unless the govt gets back 100% of salary back as taxes, the amount of taxes received back is always less than the salary paid out! I gave an example
99 Post contains images lewis : The orders for the military equipment stand. From what I have read, the "bail-out" terms from Germany and France ask for the completion of all orders
100 MD11Engineer : Well, if you couldn´t afford it, you shouldn´t have signed the contracts. Jan
101 474218 : Its not the 500 euro pensions for grandma's that are causing the problem. The problem is the unionized government worker's 2000 euro a week salary fo
102 lewis : True, but come to think about it, I never signed any contracts for it. If the government cannot say no when the whole world knows that it is on the b
103 MD11Engineer : And who elected the government? Jan
104 f.pier : And this time, (but only this time....), the UK is against. GO AWAY!!!!
105 lewis : I dare you to come to Greece and find me all these public sector employee (unionized or not) that get 8,000 Euros per month and are not in a top mana
106 lewis : I think you also have a government elected by all of you that approved bailout even if the majority of Germans oppose. Take a deep breath and enjoy!
107 Post contains links Derico : The only way this crisis will end (eventually) is if EU ''takes over'' Greek debt. I've seen this movie before: Cast: (USA 2008-2009) - Collapse of th
108 Dreadnought : Do you deny the working hours, and the retirement age? Here is how I figure it. Assuming a life expectancy of 75 years, you live 657,000 hours. In th
109 lewis : On working hours, it depends on the position. Normal working hours in the private sector and a large part of the public sector is 8hrs/day, 40hrs a w
110 Post contains links einsteinboricua : This would have all been avoided if Greece had not entered the Eurozone (not so much the European Union, though there is some debate that its entry co
111 lewis : I will agree with you on that (and I find it in no way racist), on both occasions Greece was admitted only for political (and geo-political) reasons
112 janmnastami : There's no logic to create a double-type of euro, it's just a baseless speculation.
113 Post contains links david_itl : Your currency,. Your fuck-up. Why should I have to bail out the crappy Euro? Britain = mugged. And you seriously expect the population of Britain to
114 Post contains links Andaman : The European countries are different from each other. The Nordic countries have the most competitive economies in EU, all three (Sweden, Denmark, Fin
115 speedygonzales : UK would have been better off, and the rest of the countries worse off, if UK had used Euro with the current state of the UK economy.
116 iakobos : Excellent posts Lewis, IMO quite accurate, I would just disgress with this sentence, civil servant positions have for ages be mainly a pork barreling
117 einsteinboricua : I will agree that considering when the pound took a large slide, almost reaching parity with the euro it might have been a good moment. But so far, t
118 Aaron747 : I'd just like to know what the hell the Eurozone is thinking. They are curing too much borrowing and spending with more borrowed money to the tune of
119 Post contains links MadameConcorde : Apparently the EU Finance ministers have got a rescue package together. My question is: where do they find the money? Are the Euroeean Central Bank go
120 Post contains images TheCommodore : You bet they are ! I don't know where this will all end, but I don't get a very good feeling about it at all. Most likely from China or Middle east I
121 MadameConcorde : Yep they bring a huge Hundreds of Billions of Euros rescue package suddenly out of nowhere and the markets start jumping up again! How mysterious! Thi
122 Aaron747 : It isn't healthy at all - it boggles the mind. These people need to realize bankrupting entire nations is political suicide much worse than getting i
123 MD11Engineer : Mrs. Merkel´s coalition just lost an important state election over the bailout. The result means that she lost her majority in the Bundesrat, Germany
124 Post contains links MadameConcorde : This is auto-suicide by the EUrocrats. Van Rompuy and Barroso Swear to do 'whatever it takes' to defend the Euro and the EU State. European Union fina
125 Aaron747 : Got that right - 5 Euro says some buildings in Brussels will burn within two years' time.
126 Post contains links MadameConcorde : This must be a joke. What are these banks bailing out the Euro with? More money coming out of nowhere? WASHINGTON – The Federal Reserve late Sunday
127 Post contains links Aaron747 : The best off of the bankers who know the system are going to make sure they don't lose out so this is, once again, politicians making sure their old
128 einsteinboricua : The markets seem to enjoy the bail-out. But the question is whether Greece will need another bail-out or will another euro-user need one? Italy is the
129 janmnastami : Among the PIIGGS, Italy is less exposed than the others.
130 NAV20 : It's just a matter of 'substituting' what appear to be more responsible borrowers (the EU and the IMF) for deadlegs like the Greek government, Madame
131 LJ : First, the EU doesn't have to spend anything yet. They "just" guarantee x billion of euro. The idea is that no trader should even dare to speculate w
132 f.pier : Yesterday I saw something important. All our politicians were working together to fix a serious problem. All of them decided to make something great a
133 newark777 : Unless they think the plan won't work.... They really didn't have a choice at this point.
134 david_itl : And who's going to pay for the bailout. I'm sure the Euroland population will be very welcoming as to how it will be perfoemed. The UK will be having
135 Post contains images TheCommodore : A little over 3 years and the Greek empire as well as a few other countries in Europe will start to crumble. Greeks deficit will be 140% of GDP by th
136 Post contains links Lumberton : Easier said than done. The "devil" made them do it. http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4616433&c=EUR&s=TOP
137 janmnastami : I don't understand the euroscepticism of some users. The Greece's situation is not merely a consequence of the problems of that country (high debt, de
138 Post contains links MadameConcorde : The Truth About Europe/Greece in 84 secs. --Marc Faber http://www.youtube.com/watch?hl=en&v=nE_2RCVkq1w&gl=US The Greece Bailout was actually
139 Post contains images oa260 : I wondered when this kind of thing would pop up . I was just waiting for it . Oh well I guess there is no such thing as a free lunch. Its called Inte
140 lewis : I heard Mr. Bendit's outburst in the European Parliament and he made his points quite clear. This is exactly what I was implying in my previous posts
141 Post contains images oa260 : True , is it right or wrong who knows I guess its a bit like American companies getting contracts in Iraq
142 NorthstarBoy : I cant help but wonder if it's possible that the Greeks simply never intended to pay the money back? Afterall, really, is there any difference between
143 iakobos : Truncated journalism. As far as submarines are concerned (re Germany), the contracts date back from 2000 and 2002. Four new subs and modernization of
144 L410Turbolet : Whatever Cohn-Bendit says needs to be taken with a truckload (or two) of salt.
145 RayChuang : I still think in the end, we may see a deal for Greece to leave the Eurozone, but in phases (maybe 18-24 months). That way, the ECB can concentrate on
146 iakobos : As far as frigates are concerned (6 multi-purpose of Franco-Italian conception), talks started at begin 2009 and again, they would be build in Greece
147 lewis : When a country like Greece is financially collapsing and may not be able to pay salaries, pensions and debt interests by the end of this month withou
148 janmnastami : The main point (IMO) isn't reviving economies (it's important but currently it's not the main problem), it's about controlling debt and deficit. Defi
149 newark777 : The difference is that the EU is stuck in this situation where they have a common currency, so that the fiscal actions of one member affect everyone
150 Eagleboy : That is unbelievable.........no wonder they are in such a bad way. Think it could be time to scrap some of the defense spending. They have F-16s? no
151 iakobos : In the principle it is logic. But what about purchases already delivered, Greece should deny paying the bill ? Correct, remnant of the clashes spanni
152 Revelation : It's not all that helpful in the long term. Yes the gov't is getting ships it needs, but it just can't afford them and would be better off not buying
153 MD11Engineer : The problem is that Greece doesn´t have a real manufacturing industry. As one economist stated, they went straight from an agrarian society to a pub
154 iakobos : Reading Wkipedia...."the Greek economy is a developed economy with the 22nd highest standard of living in the world...is classified as a high income e
155 oa260 : 16 million is quite large actually and Turkey is not that cheap, I have been twice in the last 12 months and prices are same if not more for similar
156 MD11Engineer : Still tourism is quite seasonal and volatile. I wouldn´t base the economics of a country as large as Greece on it (it might work for some smaller is
157 Derico : Why have ''western'' Europeans stopped visiting Greece? That sounds very strange. And it would seem the 1,000,000,000,000 firewall by the EU / IMF las
158 petertenthije : A fwe years ago it was because western Europeans had more money, and could therefor go to more exotic destinations like the Carribean and African saf
159 Andaman : For Finns Greece still is number one package holiday destination in summer. I know some people who have visited the same Greek island year after year
160 oa260 : [Edited 2010-05-14 16:48:26]
161 einsteinboricua : Would YOU like to go to a place that's on the verge of entering a small civil war? Sure, the cuts are not popular, but they ARE needed. And just as I
162 Andaman : This is a serious crisis but Greece is far from a 'civil war'... Greece has always had demonstrations, more or less rough especially in Athens. There
163 Baroque : So there IS a silver lining. Lots in our papers this week about the "interesting" little financial tricks that Greeks get up to - makes a change from
164 LJ : And yet, bookings from The Netherlands are seriously hit when the news of demonstrations, strikes and rioting were aired on the news. The expectation
165 MD11Engineer : As a person who has worked all over Europe before and after the introduction of the Euro, and had to deal with the varying exchange rates and rip off
166 lewis : Demonstrations have been taking place in Greece for decades now, nothing is new. It is far from a civil war. Of course, if during days of peaceful pr
167 L410Turbolet : They've got all the pirated Nokia models they want weeks before Nokia even officially releases them anyway...
168 einsteinboricua : Guess I kinda made it sound a bit too much. I apologise for that. Still doesn't change the fact that there have been many riots and it's not normal i
169 lewis : Well yeah it is understandable. It is bad to see these things in busy areas in Athens and leftist protesters closing down ports etc. In my opinion, t
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