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80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago  
User currently offlineVenus6971 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1440 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 2 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2546 times:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/c...glar-shot-20100526,0,2636272.story

Its not the 80 year old vet protecting his life that is in question. But being this was in Chicago and they have a total handgun ban for law abiding citizens, the question is will Mayor Daley push a prosecution of this man for defying the Chicago ordinance of having a handgun ? It appears most of the law abiding Chicago citizens will help pay any legal costs for this man if prosecuted and would make a great case study for 2nd amendment rights debate.
I do not have a JD but I fatally apply common sense to this arguement, if he was using deadly force to protect property and family does that apply to the US Constitution, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness or does the Chicago ordinace trump any due process and allows the right of the offender to rob rape and murder.
I'll make a prediction that anti incumbency will be rampent in Chicago and the rest of Illinois if a prosecution goes through on the 80 year old.
I was born a raised in Chicago but live in OKC now since the early 90's but I am always curious on how things go back home.


I would help you but it is not in the contract
37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6530 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (4 years 2 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2520 times:

Living in a country where guns are banned, I understand the Chicago law, but a law like that cannot work if it's limited to a city.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8791 posts, RR: 24
Reply 2, posted (4 years 2 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2492 times:

At least here in KY if you find a burglar in your home, you can shoot him, no questions asked.

Even if you live in a big city, you have to assume that if you call the police they will take at least several minutes to get to you. For those few minutes, you're on your own.

I hope the old man is not dragged to court for this - in any civilized jurisdiction, he wouldn't be.

By the way, a few years ago in my neighborhood, we had a rash of home invasions and burglaries for several months - spillover from a nearby poor part of town we now call Little Mexico. Someone at the local branch of the NRA had the bright idea of handing out free stickers to put in the window, like "Member of NRA", "This property protected by Smith & Wesson", and so forth, and pretty much everyone in the neighborhood got them and put them in their windows. The home invasions and burglaries died off almost within a week. Those stickers worked even better than the signs given by security services like Brinks.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6574 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (4 years 2 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2489 times:
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There are occasions for which seat belts and airbags actually cause more harm than good.

We should stop requiring seat belts and airbags in cars.



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineVenus6971 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1440 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 2 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2489 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 1):
Living in a country where guns are banned, I understand the Chicago law, but a law like that cannot work if it's limited to a city.

Ok lets apply this to the whole world, if you used a handgun in your French home to kill a intruder to save your family from immediate harm would you be outraged if you were taken to court?



I would help you but it is not in the contract
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6574 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (4 years 2 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2485 times:
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Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):

I hope the old man is not dragged to court for this - in any civilized jurisdiction, he wouldn't be.

Don't worry - i heard on the news this AM that no charges will be filed..

Does that qualify a us civilized jurisdiction?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5359 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (4 years 2 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2474 times:

Quoting Venus6971 (Thread starter):
push a prosecution of this man for defying the Chicago ordinance of having a handgun

He should be prosecuted. As much as I'm a proponent of our 2nd Amendment rights and the right to defend ourselves and our right to own and carry a firearm (you get the picture), we must also obey the law. We do live in a land of laws. But, if there is a law we disagree with, we must work to change it.

But, then again, Daley and his cronies are politically astute and can see the political dynamite this case is. They will have to decide which fallout they can better manage, those who believe in our right to defend ourselves with equal or greater force than presented or the anti-gun lobby.

The way this should be prosecuted, if it is prosecuted, is as the unlawful possesion of a firearm and not murder. He clearly, with available information, acted in self-defense. With any luck, the NRA takes up position behind this man and tosses another challenge to the Chicago law.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 1):
Living in a country where guns are banned, I understand the Chicago law, but a law like that cannot work if it's limited to a city.

You're right, a law like that can not work in isolation. And, since we do have the 2nd Amendment, and the Heller ruling, we may find that the Chicago law, along with many others around the nation get overturned.

[Edited 2010-05-27 10:01:32]


When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineLarshjort From Denmark, joined Dec 2007, 1434 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 2 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2438 times:

My first question is, how is the mayor even allowed to decide who to prosecute or not?

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 4):
Ok lets apply this to the whole world, if you used a handgun in your French home to kill a intruder to save your family from immediate harm would you be outraged if you were taken to court?

In Denmark youre allowed to defend yourself by reasonalbe means which is difened as if youre threatened by a man with a bat, you may use an object equal to a bat to defend yourself. If you a threatened with a gun, you may use a gun to defend yoourself.

/Lars



139, 306, 319, 320, 321, 332, 34A, AN2, AT4, AT5, AT7, 733, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 146, AR1, BH2, CN1, CR2, DH1, DH3, DH4,
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6530 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (4 years 2 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2435 times:

Quoting Larshjort (Reply 7):
In Denmark youre allowed to defend yourself by reasonalbe means which is difened as if youre threatened by a man with a bat, you may use an object equal to a bat to defend yourself. If you a threatened with a gun, you may use a gun to defend yoourself.

Same here. And very few burglars are armed, guns are mostly used by drug dealers/mafiosis among themselves.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5359 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (4 years 2 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2426 times:

Quoting Larshjort (Reply 7):
My first question is, how is the mayor even allowed to decide who to prosecute or not?

We're talking Chicago here. Mayor Daley, through cronism and corruption, is the de-facto king of Chicago.

Quoting Larshjort (Reply 7):
If you a threatened with a gun, you may use a gun to defend yoourself.

Is the average citizen allowed to own and carry a gun?

A follow-up, if I may? If the average citizen is not allowed a gun, yet uses one in self-defense (against a gun weilding attacker) does the citizen suffer any penalty?

[Edited 2010-05-27 10:38:14]


When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6483 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (4 years 2 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2419 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 5):
Don't worry - i heard on the news this AM that no charges will be filed..

I have heard no such thing, and I have been paying attention to the news on this subject today. WLSAM posited that Daley was in a quandary, because of the issue this issue:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 6):
He should be prosecuted. As much as I'm a proponent of our 2nd Amendment rights and the right to defend ourselves and our right to own and carry a firearm (you get the picture), we must also obey the law. We do live in a land of laws. But, if there is a law we disagree with, we must work to change it.

Oh, believe me, that's in the works. If the City wants to prosecute him, they have only a few days or a couple of weeks to do it. SCOTUS will rule on the constitutionality of the Chicago handgun ban in that timeframe.

[Edited 2010-05-27 10:40:49]


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlinesprout5199 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1852 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (4 years 2 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2381 times:

Quoting Larshjort (Reply 7):
In Denmark youre allowed to defend yourself by reasonalbe means which is difened as if youre threatened by a man with a bat, you may use an object equal to a bat to defend yourself. If you a threatened with a gun, you may use a gun to defend yoourself.

So if you are threatened with a bat, you can not use a gun to defend yourself? Sounds odd. So if a 5 foot, 100 pound woman was being attacked by a 6 foot 250 pound man with his hands, all she can defend herself with is her hands?

Dan in Jupiter


User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 12, posted (4 years 2 months 5 days ago) and read 2356 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 5):
Don't worry - i heard on the news this AM that no charges will be filed..



If the man broke the law by having a handgun he should be prosecuted under the law!!. Suspending the law for political convenience is outrageous and needs to stop. Charge him ... then let the political process take shape.

Quoting sprout5199 (Reply 11):
So if you are threatened with a bat, you can not use a gun to defend yourself? Sounds odd. So if a 5 foot, 100 pound woman was being attacked by a 6 foot 250 pound man with his hands, all she can defend herself with is her hands?



Its a case by case issue ...it all depends on the circumstances . The jury makes the call in the end and that is how it should be.



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 31
Reply 13, posted (4 years 2 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2331 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 3):
There are occasions for which seat belts and airbags actually cause more harm than good.

We should stop requiring seat belts and airbags in cars.

Ok?

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 12):
If the man broke the law by having a handgun he should be prosecuted under the law!!.

And if that law is unconstitutional?



Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
User currently offlineStarbuk7 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 599 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (4 years 2 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2306 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
Even if you live in a big city, you have to assume that if you call the police they will take at least several minutes to get to you. For those few minutes, you're on your own.


Reminds me of this joke i received a while back.

I was going to bed the other night when my wife told me she could see from the bedroom window that I had left the light on in the shed. As I looked for myself, I saw that there were people in the shed taking things. I phoned the police, but they told me that no one was in our area to help at this time, but they would send someone over as soon as they were available.

I said, "OK", hung up, and waited one minute, then phoned the police back.

"Hello. I just called you a minute ago because there were people in my shed. Well, you don't have to worry about them now cause I've shot them all."

Within five minutes there were half a dozen police cars in the area, an Armed Response unit, the works. Of course, they caught the burglars red-handed.

One of the officers said: "I thought you said that you'd shot them!"

I replied with, "I thought you said there was nobody available."


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6530 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (4 years 2 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2306 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 9):
A follow-up, if I may? If the average citizen is not allowed a gun, yet uses one in self-defense (against a gun wielding attacker) does the citizen suffer any penalty?

There will be an inquiry and probably a trial (it happens even with cops), now they wouldn't risk much, unless they did something like shooting the burglar in the back while he was fleeing.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3623 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (4 years 2 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2265 times:

Quoting Larshjort (Reply 7):
In Denmark youre allowed to defend yourself by reasonalbe means which is difened as if youre threatened by a man with a bat, you may use an object equal to a bat to defend yourself. If you a threatened with a gun, you may use a gun to defend yoourself.

If you are in immediate danger, will you have time to assess the situation and pick a suitable weapon?

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 4):

Ok lets apply this to the whole world, if you used a handgun in your French home to kill a intruder to save your family from immediate harm would you be outraged if you were taken to court?

I am not sure what the law is here regarding the use of firearms to defend our home. In my family, if we suspect that a burglar is in the house, my father will automatically grab his glock, not to kill, maybe to wound (at the leg for example) any intruders. He will ask questions later. And we are not a firearm society. With so many burglaries and increase in crime around Athens, like people going into houses and injuring/killing for a 50EUR loot, I doubt anyone is going to take the side of a criminal.


User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 17, posted (4 years 2 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2233 times:

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 13):
And if that law is unconstitutional?



I agree the law is unconstitutional ... but we will never get rid of these laws if it never really becomes a political issue. When the laws are just dismissed at convenience rather than actually amending them or striking them down ...well you can see the problem. They Should charge this man for breaking the city ordnance ...then let the political process take shape to ammend the law or get rid of it.



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5359 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (4 years 2 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2233 times:

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 13):

And if that law is unconstitutional?

Let the process play itself out. We can't just go ignoring laws that we feel are wrong or un-Constitutional. Challenge them in court. Otherwise, there is anarchy.

Quoting lewis (Reply 16):
my father will automatically grab his glock

Is he a police officer? If not, how has he come to own a handgun in Athens? I'm pretty sure that it is illegal to do so.

Quoting lewis (Reply 16):
maybe to wound

And this is a way to get yourself killed. Unless you are trained under the stress of combat or simulated combat, when the situation presents itself, shooting at a small target, like a leg or an arm or the intruder's weapon, will almost surely fail. If you feel your life is threatened enough to shoot, you shoot center-mass in order to stop the threat. I think I'm an outstanding shot, but I would not even consider shooting anything less than center-mass.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 15):
There will be an inquiry and probably a trial (it happens even with cops), now they wouldn't risk much, unless they did something like shooting the burglar in the back while he was fleeing.

Maybe I'm not being clear enough. I'm not asking about the actual killing, we'll say that is a clear-cut justified case of self-defense (as the case in chicago appears to be). What about the gun charge? Will the person be charged with a crime for owning a gun when he is not allowed to own a gun?



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6483 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (4 years 2 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2221 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
Will the person be charged with a crime for owning a gun when he is not allowed to own a gun?

I think the City of Chicago will just sit on the charges ("gathering evidence") until the constitutional verdict is rendered in a couple of weeks, thus mooting the charges. If they file charges, then it'll be automatically rendered null and void by the verdict anyhow.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6530 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (4 years 2 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2182 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 16):
If you are in immediate danger, will you have time to assess the situation and pick a suitable weapon?

That's precisely why owning a gun is illegal in the first place : because it's too easy to kill somebody with it.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
Maybe I'm not being clear enough. I'm not asking about the actual killing, we'll say that is a clear-cut justified case of self-defense (as the case in chicago appears to be). What about the gun charge? Will the person be charged with a crime for owning a gun when he is not allowed to own a gun?

Yes he will.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineVenus6971 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1440 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 2 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2136 times:

Quoting N328KF (Reply 19):
I think the City of Chicago will just sit on the charges ("gathering evidence") until the constitutional verdict is rendered in a couple of weeks, thus mooting the charges. If they file charges, then it'll be automatically rendered null and void by the verdict anyhow.
Quoting Aesma (Reply 20):
Yes he will.


Yes they probably will file charges and if the prosecuter is smart he will wait until what SCOTUS comes back with. If against the City of Chicago this will be dropped like a bad habit.
Old Saying'
Rather be judged by a jury of 12 than carried by a party of 6.
God did not make all men equal, it took Samuel Colt to do so.
Either way this makes it a difficult position for Mayor Daley to be in, if the old man was not armed and he and his wife were killed he would be catching hell right now for denying law abiding citizens the right to defend themselves.
I wish people who are anti gun,smoking, meat, whatever their cause stop trying to impose their beliefs on people who do not agree with them. With freedom comes responsiblity, why is my fault if someone else is irresponsible.



I would help you but it is not in the contract
User currently offlinebohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2671 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 2 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2114 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 9):
Quoting Larshjort (Reply 7):
My first question is, how is the mayor even allowed to decide who to prosecute or not?

We're talking Chicago here. Mayor Daley, through cronism and corruption, is the de-facto king of Chicago.

Let's not forget that Mayor Daley is the dictator of Chicago who took it upon himself to send a team of bulldozers in the middle of the night to destroy Meigs Field. If he can get away with that, he can decide whether or not to prosecute an 80-year-old hero on gun charges.

If it does get prosecuted it will probably be plea bargained, our hero gets probation, and then the charges dropped after completing probation.


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5359 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (4 years 2 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2111 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 20):
That's precisely why owning a gun is illegal in the first place : because it's too easy to kill somebody with it.

But, what do you do when your assailant is armed with a gun and you're not?



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineVenus6971 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1440 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 2 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2094 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 23):
But, what do you do when your assailant is armed with a gun and you're not?

Free men don't ask permission to arm and defend themselves.



I would help you but it is not in the contract
25 charlienorth : I always say.. will agree to a ban on guns if the police and military give 'em up too..
26 Mudboy : I hate to tell you, but a bat can be just as deadly as a gun. If I have a gun and someone comes at me with a bat, am I to say," time out" so I can go
27 Post contains images BMI727 : We are talking about a guy who secretly destroyed an airport and it only cost them $33000. How bout Rahm in 2011? But that would get messed up if you
28 lewis : No. And it is not illegal to own a firearm, it is illegal to use it outside shooting ranges and to carry it around with you. There is a different lic
29 lewis : I used to be very anti-gun. Nowdays most of our neighbours houses have been broken into not by single burglars but by groups of them. People are gett
30 Post contains images sasd209 : I absolutely agree!!! I will then send his defense team as much money as I can spare so they can fight this and while doing it the high courts of you
31 JJJ : I answer for Spain, which has very similar gun laws than pretty much most of Europe. For a hunting permit you need to be a registered hunter (which i
32 bjorn14 : The leading cause of death is sin.
33 mt99 : That did not/ stop Arizona. I don't understand all the support for the AZ anti-illegal law (before it got changed). You guys said pretty much "the co
34 Dreadnought : What part of the constitution says that we should not enforce our border laws? You're making this sh&t up... Because, "the right of the people to
35 mt99 : You know the thread. look it up. The way the first law was crafted brought up into question some constitutionality issues,.,. that why it got changed
36 N328KF : Actually, Los Angeles has a law almost identical to the Arizona law on their books. They just don't enforce it, is all. Let's be clear: The law does
37 mt99 : Thats not quite what the FIRST version of the law said...
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