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Jaguar Developing A Turbine Powered Car  
User currently offlinekl671 From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 141 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2852 times:

I came across this article in the UK motoring magazine "Autocar" that describes an electric vehicle being developed by Jaguar, that uses a turbo electric drive. They propose using a micro gas turbine manufactured by Bladen Jets, to drive a high speed generator that will charge a battery pack. The consortium have secured financing from the British government.

Given the many failed attempts by many manufacturers to put a gas turbine powred car into volume production, is this one also doomed to failure?. Would you buy one?

Has anyone out there got any info on how this development program is proceding?

http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/Jaguar-Concepts/247785/

http://www.bladonjets.com/

44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8791 posts, RR: 24
Reply 1, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2845 times:

Not a new idea - Chrysler did it 50 years ago and even built 50 of them.

Quote:
It could use diesel fuel, unleaded gasoline, kerosene, JP-4 jet fuel, and even vegetable oil. The engine would run on virtually anything and the president of Mexico tested this theory by running one of the first cars—successfully—on tequila.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Turbine_Car



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 2, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2842 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):

Plus the M1 Abrams tank, though this does have disadvantages, some of which, like high fuel consumption and hot exhaust, would probably also apply to cars.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8791 posts, RR: 24
Reply 3, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2830 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
hot exhaust,

I'm sure the eco-mentalists won't be happy about that. Can you imagine the thermal signature above an LA traffic jam if all cars were turbine powered? At that point the theory of man-made global warming might have some validity 



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 4, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2828 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
I'm sure the eco-mentalists won't be happy about that

Screw them, what about walking through a parking lot and getting blasted with turbine exhaust?   



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8791 posts, RR: 24
Reply 5, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2795 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
Screw them, what about walking through a parking lot and getting blasted with turbine exhaust?

Yeah, that'll be fun on asphalt.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently onlinebohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2671 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2747 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
, like high fuel consumption and hot exhaust,

I'm sure it's loud.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 7, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2743 times:

Quoting bohica (Reply 6):
I'm sure it's loud

Actually, quite the opposite. If I recall correctly, the Chrysler was actually somewhat disparaged because it was too quiet, and didn't have the roar drivers thought a car should have. The Abrams tank is also known for being considerably quieter than its diesel powered counterparts.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2741 times:

I'm very surprised they went with an axial design. I was expecting to see a centrifugal compressor based out of automotive turbochargers as used for R/C jet engines. Would have certainly been much cheaper. However, an axial turbine would be more efficient, obviously that's why they went this route. However, I'm guessing it won't be cheap at all. R/C turbine engines in this size are about $3 grand. I'm guessing something like this is at least twice or maybe even 3 times as much, as it does not use off-the-shelf parts.

However, I think serial Hybrids are much much better than regular parallel hybrids like the Prius. It just makes much more sense to have a (relatively) tiny combustion engine driving a large generator and big motors rather than a big-ish combustion engine driving a tiny generator and tiny motors. Heck, diesel electric trains have been proving the serial hybrid concept for well over half a century.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):

Screw them, what about walking through a parking lot and getting blasted with turbine exhaust?
Quoting bohica (Reply 6):
I'm sure it's loud.

Doubt either will happen. Since obviously cars don't have to be super light, unlike planes, they can afford to put a beefy exhaust and muffler system. Just look at all the industrial micro turbines, they're pretty much dead silent and the exhaust is no hotter than that of reciprocating engines.

[Edited 2010-06-03 22:51:06]

[Edited 2010-06-03 22:51:22]

User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2614 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Turbine_Car

A very thorough history of the Chrysler turbine cars can be found on Allpar (There's also some great film footage posted in the article as well.) :

http://www.allpar.com/mopar/turbine.html

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):

Plus the M1 Abrams tank, though this does have disadvantages, some of which, like high fuel consumption and hot exhaust, would probably also apply to cars.

Here's a list of advantages, taken from the above link at Allpar:

# Maintenance is considerably reduced
# Engine life-expectancy is much longer
# Development potential is remarkable
# The number of parts is reduced 80%
# Tuning-up is almost eliminated
# Low-temperature starting difficulties are eliminated
# No warm-up period is necessary
# Antifreeze is not needed
# Instant heat is available in the winter
# The engine will not stall with sudden overloading
# Engine operation is vibration-free
# Operates on wide variety of fuels
# Oil consumption is negligible
# Engine weight is reduced
# Exhaust gases are cool and clean


Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):
Actually, quite the opposite. If I recall correctly, the Chrysler was actually somewhat disparaged because it was too quiet, and didn't have the roar drivers thought a car should have. The Abrams tank is also known for being considerably quieter than its diesel powered counterparts.

Which today probably isn't as big of an issue when you consider how well insulated cars are in regards to sound compared to in the past. In addition, cars are nowhere near as loud (unless they are performance vehicles or modified with aftermarket accessories like those "coffee can" exhausts that make a four-banger sound like a Harley.) as in the past.


User currently offlinemffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1060 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2611 times:

I'm waiting for the GE90-115B version to come out before I buy!   


harder than woodpecker lips...
User currently offlinevc10 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 1407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 11, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2597 times:

Now you won't forget Dear old Rover of the UK produced a turbine powered car back in 1948 and even went on to run one of their cars at LeMans in the 1960s


http://www.rover.org.nz/pages/jet/jet5.htm

littlevc10


User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2584 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
Chrysler did it 50 years ago and even built 50 of them.

Slightly different in that it's a GT-E.

More resembles one of these bad boys i suppose...



User currently offlineMasterBean From UK - England, joined Apr 2010, 181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2551 times:

Jay Leno's built one. Here she be.
http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/at-the...m-built/ecojet-definitive-edition/


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19415 posts, RR: 58
Reply 14, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2522 times:

Quoting mffoda (Reply 10):
I'm waiting for the GE90-115B version to come out before I buy!

Yeah, but first you need a new garage. Every time you start it.  
Quoting kl671 (Thread starter):

Given the many failed attempts by many manufacturers to put a gas turbine powred car into volume production, is this one also doomed to failure?. Would you buy one?

This is an interesting idea. The big reason why turbines were never successful at powering cars is because turbines respond slowly to changes in demand. You can run an internal combustion from idle to red-line in less than a second. You can't do that with a turbine without risking a surge.

But if the drive comes from an electric motor, then that changes everything. It becomes a turbine hybrid and it stands to blow the Prius out of the water for efficiency.

And so I'm sorry to disappoint you planet-trashers, but this car, if I'm not mistaken, is going to be greener than green.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 15, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2458 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
But if the drive comes from an electric motor, then that changes everything. It becomes a turbine hybrid and it stands to blow the Prius out of the water for efficiency

Well, if the thing is going to haul around a thousand pounds wroth of batteries, I'd rather go with a direct drive.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
And so I'm sorry to disappoint you planet-trashers, but this car, if I'm not mistaken, is going to be greener than green.

It needs to be better than pistons if they want me to drive it.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 8):
Since obviously cars don't have to be super light, unlike planes,

That's what you think.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8791 posts, RR: 24
Reply 16, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2446 times:

Quoting MasterBean (Reply 13):
Jay Leno's built one. Here she be.

LOL! If it goes on sale it can be called the Chinmobile.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):

But if the drive comes from an electric motor, then that changes everything. It becomes a turbine hybrid and it stands to blow the Prius out of the water for efficiency.

That's an interesting idea. That would allow for a smaller, less responsive turbine which theoretically can be more efficient.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4896 posts, RR: 16
Reply 17, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2432 times:

I'm-a-not understanding this at all, my friends. All Jaguar has done is move a small, oil-burning power generation station into the trunk. How does this help cut emissions?

Fly2HMO, good post, btw.


User currently onlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2988 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2395 times:

Let's see Fuel + internal combustion engine + alternator + DC bridge (charging circuit) + heavy polluting battery + electric motor.
Changing the internal combustion engine from recip to turbine is just not going to make great strides.

Try this Fuel + fuel cell + electric motor.
Now you get to leave some of the energy losses and weight behind as well as 95% of the pollution.
Looks like we need to put effort in the fuel cell technology. Right now the Fuel Cell is not coming along as hoped.

Okie


User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2382 times:

Quoting mffoda (Reply 10):
I'm waiting for the GE90-115B version to come out before I buy!

eh, I'll pass unless they put afterburners as an option 
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 15):
That's what you think.

We're talking daily drivers here. Of course a proper sports car has to be light.

Quoting okie (Reply 18):
+ DC bridge (charging circuit) + heavy polluting battery +

        

You're missing the point. With a serial hybrid you can get rid of batteries/chargers altogether. So in reality it would not be much different than your regular car's systems, aside from the turbine and electric motors.

So in reality it would be a Jet-A/Diesel/Gasoline/Kerosene/Biofuel/Vodka-Electric car, akin to diesel-electric trains.

Quoting okie (Reply 18):
Changing the internal combustion engine from recip to turbine is just not going to make great strides.

Volvo had a serial hybrid (diesel-electric) that did over 100MPGs. This turbine is infinitely smaller than the diesel generator in that car, and I'm sure it will be more efficient.

Quoting okie (Reply 18):
Looks like we need to put effort in the fuel cell technology

Hell no. First we have to find an easy and cheap way to get hydrogen, THEN and only then, can we seriously consider hydrogen as a replacement fuel for fossil fuels.

[Edited 2010-06-04 18:14:12]

User currently onlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2988 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2343 times:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 19):
Hell no. First we have to find an easy and cheap way to get hydrogen, THEN and only then, can we seriously consider hydrogen as a replacement fuel for fossil fuels



Hell no. A fuel cell that will run on:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 19):
Jet-A/Diesel/Gasoline/Kerosene/Biofuel/Vodka-Electric car



Or natural gas, Hydrogen would be the last resort. Something we already have infrastructure to transport and deliver only we would have to deliver 1/2 as much.

We need to get efficiencies up higher than the 30% range for energy put in to the energy put on the ground with electrics now.

Okie


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19415 posts, RR: 58
Reply 21, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2306 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):

That's an interesting idea. That would allow for a smaller, less responsive turbine which theoretically can be more efficient.

Yes, and it still allows for rapid response to demand from the drive. Brilliant! It'll have to be an all-electric drive, but that's brilliant!


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 22, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2301 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 21):
Yes, and it still allows for rapid response to demand from the drive

More than rapid, instant. Electric cars have a lot of potential, and really they take the positive characteristics of diesel to the next level. The hurdle is not the engine itself, but storage. As far as I am concerned, batteries just don't have enough capacity per pound to be really good. Supercapacitors do offer hope though, assuming the technology gets there.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 19):
First we have to find an easy and cheap way to get hydrogen, THEN and only then, can we seriously consider hydrogen as a replacement fuel for fossil fuels.

Well, it is the fuel of the future and probably always will be.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19415 posts, RR: 58
Reply 23, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2299 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 22):

Well, it is the fuel of the future and probably always will be.

It does occupy a larger volume (the figure 7x is in my head for some reason) than hydrocarbon fuel.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 24, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2295 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 23):
It does occupy a larger volume (the figure 7x is in my head for some reason) than hydrocarbon fuel

The biggest issue with hydrogen in my mind is that basically the entire infrastructure for fuel would need to be rebuilt. Essentially, every gas station would need to be renovated or replaces, and new trucks and tank cars would need to be made. It would be a costly, long, and probably for consumers frustrating process. Compare that with diesel, which is already easily available, and most stations without it would only need to put diesel instead of gas in their underground tanks or electricity which is easily available in nearly every home and perhaps add pay to charge stations wired into parking garages and the like.

The other advantage of supercapacitors is that they can be charged and discharged quickly with little degradation. Hopefully, an electrical car that uses supercapacitors for storage would not need a backup combustion engine, although a series hybrid would still benefit from the technology, whenever it is ready.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
25 DocLightning : I think that it would evolve slowly, then catch on like wildfire. Much like other technologies, it would not appear overnight or in one vast coordina
26 zkpilot : In Auckland, New Zealand there are buses that are turbine powered. I can't remember if they are directly hooked up to the gearbox or if they generate
27 Post contains images A342 : Are you really really really sure? I ask because some of the older CNG buses in my city sounded like they had a turbine engine, but it was a normal p
28 okie : The issue I have here is the amount of energy used to produce the hydrogen as well as the infrastructure. This is just another energy loss step in th
29 francoflier : Not so much a hybrid (as hybrid means two sources of propulsion), but a full blown electric car, with its own electricity generator on board. The con
30 Post contains images Fly2HMO : The only problem being fuel cells tend to run best on hydrogen (for now at least) I'm pretty sure it will be much more efficient than a piston. I don
31 comorin : Direct Drive: So you have a constant speed turbine ( why? because of AC frequency?) that powers series-wound motors under a varying load scenario. So
32 type-rated : I remember when the Chrysler cars were out and about, even saw one once on the road. I thought they looked more like a Ford, very Thunderbirdesque in
33 DocLightning : Well, until you need to replace the batteries. That's the point. Batteries. And perhaps eventually supercapacitors. Presumably, the turbine would be
34 BMI727 : That is direct drive meaning that the turbine itself delivers power to a transmission that delivers power to the wheels, as in the Chrysler Turbine C
35 comorin : I wonder how they take care of lag due to spooling up - must be tricky driving an M1. Anyway I a really excited that Jaguar is in the front of techno
36 Post contains links kl671 : I was surprised to find out that DesignLine International manufactured electric buses have been in service for some 12 years now, with the first star
37 Post contains links Fly2HMO : Looks like they based it off of this kit car: http://www.factoryfive.com/gtmhome.html
38 Post contains links zkpilot : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DesignLine_Corporation
39 seb146 : So? I don't understand why people are giddy over how fast a car can go 0-60 or 0-100. A regular car on a regular day under regular conditions will no
40 Post contains images Fly2HMO : Because not everybody in the world drives like an old lady to church Come to think of it, moonshine might give it better performance
41 francoflier : I'm far from being knowledgable in electric propulsion, but I believe a constant speed AC generator powering an AC motor would be more efficient. Eit
42 Post contains images seb146 : Was that you behind me yesterday flipping me the bird? Seriously, though, why does it matter how a car can do "off the line?" What good is that for a
43 DocLightning : We're not talking about drag-racing teenagers here. You're at a stoplight in front of an empty intersection. You look in the rearview mirror and ther
44 Post contains images Fly2HMO : A pitty cruiser? I'm so sorry Nah, I'm the honk-the-horn-till-it-burns-out type I was just thinking of an example just around those lines. I've been
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