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Bloody Sunday An Important Day In Irish History  
User currently offlineoa260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27245 posts, RR: 60
Posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3197 times:

Today sees the report from the Saville inquiry. Its taken 12 years and cost £195 million. Hopefully the report will bring closure to the families.


Lawyers for the families of those killed and injured on Bloody Sunday and the soldiers involved are studying Lord Saville's report on the events.

The outcome of the Bloody Sunday inquiry, the longest and most expensive public inquiry in UK legal history, is due to be made public later.

Thirteen people died in 1972 when British soldiers opened fire on civil rights marchers.

The Saville Report cost £195m and took 12 years to complete.

The shootings were among the most controversial state killings in the Northern Ireland conflict.

The marchers were shot dead on 30 January 1972 when British paratroopers opened fire on crowds at a civil rights demonstration. Fourteen others were wounded, one of whom later died.

5,000 pages
According to BBC NI political editor Mark Devenport, while it may not have been the bloodiest day in the history of the Troubles, "the significance of that day in shaping the course of the conflict cannot be overstated".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/northern_ireland/10310598.stm

78 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8221 posts, RR: 26
Reply 1, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3130 times:

Quoting oa260 (Thread starter):

Lawyers for the families of those killed and injured on Bloody Sunday and the soldiers involved are studying Lord Saville's report on the events.

The outcome of the Bloody Sunday inquiry, the longest and most expensive public inquiry in UK legal history, is due to be made public later.

Depending on the outcome, will the UK be obligated to pay victims' families? Seems only appropriate.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineshamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4211 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3116 times:

"Unjustified and Unjustifiable" is how Saville describes the action of the British Army on that day, one that changed the course of Irish History, and hastened Northern Ireland's descent into violence.

I am so deeply happy that finally these innocent people, who's only crime was to defy a Unionist ban on peaceful protest, have been exhonerated after all these years.

I am also deeply happy that new Prime Minister of the UK has so unreservedly said "Sorry". Its a small word that we have never heard for the historical wrongs commited against the Irish people by succesive British governments, until now that is.

Well done Saville, Well done David Cameron, and thank you.

I hope we can all continue to move on, and that neither the Irish or British ever again have to go through the painful events that have marked our common history.



Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently onlinealberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2941 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3073 times:

Why the hell did it take so long to investigate this incident? Surely previous govt's must have slowed or delayed the investigation right ?


short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineoa260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27245 posts, RR: 60
Reply 4, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3032 times:

Finally a very sore point between the Irish and British people has been laid to rest. They were labled as terrorists by the British government for years and its finally been admitted that they were innocent.

User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13241 posts, RR: 77
Reply 5, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2998 times:

Quoting alberchico (Reply 3):
Why the hell did it take so long to investigate this incident? Surely previous govt's must have slowed or delayed the investigation right ?

There was one weeks after the event, frankly it was a whitewash.
Context is important however, this was under the worst post war government in UK history (I know some will want to say more recent ones fit this bill - but they have all, except Heath's Conservatives in 1970-74, managed to keep the lights on).
This was matched by Heath's reaction to the N.I. situation which they had inherited from Wilson's Labour government.
Or rather his Home Secretary Reggie Maulding, on the plane after his first trip to the province, what a bloody godawful place, for chirsts sake get me a large scotch!

After the request to send in troops from the N.I. government in 1969, as a civil rights campaign, deliberately modelled on the US ones around the same time, sank into near anarchy.
The majority staunchly pro Loyalist majority, had within them, mainly in the poorer inner cities, people who saw any attempt to make right the excesses of the Unionists there, as a front for some new IRA campaign.
They acted accordingly, the police (RUC) either could not cope or had in their ranks, notably the notorious Police reserve, the 'B Specials', officers way too partial.

At this stage, the IRA had little or no involvement in this campaign, largely seen as a bunch of has-beens with some rusty old weapons.
The rioting started turning into a pogrom, with both sides in cramped, poor inner cities, trying to burn the other side out of their homes.
But the Loyalists had the numbers.

So British troops were, reluctantly, deployed in a role akin to a UN peacekeeping force.
Even the Republicans welcomed them, they had stopped Loyalist mobs burning their homes.
(The first security force member killed was a RUC officer by a Loyalist sniper).

A new, younger element were emerging within the IRA, stung by the failure of these self appointed 'Community Defenders' to stop Loyalist mobs, their own people saying 'IRA' stood for 'I Ran Away'.
They looked to the Palestine for ideas as they began to infiltrate and use the Civil Rights Movement.

On deploying the troops, the UK government should at this point have instituted direct rule from London, if the N.I. government had to ask for troops - unknown in modern times, to keep order, something was clearly very wrong.
Not until mid 1972 did this occur.
Maybe had the Wilson government stayed in office and not lost the 1970 election, this might have happened, they did, at the army's insistence, to the anger of the hard core Loyalists, disband the 'B Specials'.

However, being under the effective direction of the N.I. government - seen by many Republicans as illegitimate, the army began to be used as a quasi police force. Even well trained troops are not policeman, as sweeps of nationalist estates and rioting developed, meanwhile the more radicalised elements in the IRA gatthered strength.

In 1971, with rioting now being supplemented by IRA attacks on the security forces, the N.I. government instituted interment without trial.
A mass sweep of IRA suspects, from lists decades out of date. (Why the hell did Heath and Maulding not veto this?)
Notable suspects arrested included an old, blind man.
(This is why many in the UK were sceptical from the start about 'extraordinary rendition' and the prison at Gitmo three decades later - it had the opposite effect as intended in N.I. Increasing support for the IRA).

The Civil Rights march on 30th Jan 1972, though banned by the government after surging unrest, was to protest about internment.
Londonderry had a particular hard core of rioters, adept at slinging rocks, petrol bombs, bottles filled with acid, crude firework powder and shrapnel derived 'blast bombs', at the security forces, who replied mostly with rubber bullets, water-cannon (not effective), CS gas (not effective and dangerous to innocents).
Often riots were staged to allow IRA gunmen to fire on troops encumbered with riot gear. Casualties were mounting.

They were bound to come out for this parade, some the security forces wanted them dealt with.
To relieved exhausted troops in Derry, 1 PARA deployed from Belfast, where they had a reputation for dealing with rioters more directly than from behind riot shields dispensing gas and rubber rounds.
The Parachute Regiment, extremely tough soldiers, they wore their flak jackets under their camo jackets to appear more bulky and maybe have the opposition think they were nuts - if they thought these troops were not wearing body armour.

If the violence kicked off, the Paras would enter the Nationalist stronghold of the Bogside estate, catch and arrest the ringleaders of the riot, all the while expecting to be targets for gunmen.
No riot shields for them, rifle, baton, speed and aggression instead.

What happened next is covered by this unprecedented report, 12 years and £195 million of it.
It does seems that there was some limited firing from IRA gunmen, however this report does not place it in the direct context of the army opening fire.
The troops carried on them a 'yellow card' which set out their legal restraints, only fire when life is threatened and on clear targets.
Whatever the first Para who fired was thinking is not clear, it is likely in the confused situation he did think he was under fire, that does not mean he kept with the Yellow Card guidelines.
Whatever was the case, the subsequent firing certainly did not.
108 rounds from it seems, 4-5 soldiers.
7.62mm rounds from their SLR's, 2750 feet per second velocity.

There is even footage of troops by their vehicle, a very officer like voice barks, cease firing, unless you can clearly identify the target! - meaning a gunman about to shoot.
Then one of the Paras raises his SLR, then the crash like sound of him firing a round.

Why did they do it? Over nearly three decades some 250,000 troops served in N.I. Many on multiple tours in the early years when it was at it's worst, without acting in such a lethally overkill manner.
What made them do, on that day, what so many others, in more difficult or worse situation not do?
This is the unknown still.
At the enquiry, the ex soldiers involved did not give for the most part very convincing answers.
I think they just lost it, pent up aggression, being told that they very likely faced an armed opposition for entering the Bogside (areas of Belfast and Derry had become de-facto 'no go' areas for the security forces, until in July 1972 the troops finally broke these with their physical barricades up, the only casualties that night being two IRA gunmen - the rest got the hell out).

But disciplined troops, carrying highly lethal weapons, constrained by rules they all knew of, cannot do this.
Because aside from the direct loss of life, Bloody Sunday provided a massive boost to the IRA, the deaths that went on cause. The violence became much worse, then in the shape of blowing up crowded pubs on the UK mainland, reached beyond this unhappy province.
(Later, some IRA members admitted that it was such a boost for them).

The troops now will all be in their late 50's and 60's, all long out of the army.
They should have faced justice in 1972.
The discredited initial enquiry that year did speak of shooting 'bordering on the reckless', but also spoke of the possibility of some of the dead handling weapons, petrol/acid/blast bombs.
Sure, rioters that day, plus some IRA elements did, but not those killed.

There will be pressure now to prosecute, while the ex Paras involved do in truth deserve it, it is likely, in the context of so many terrorists, including some with the most serioius convictions, released under the peace agreement, this will be seen by the Ulster Protestants as a step too far.
They've had to swallow the likes of Adams and McGuiness enter mainstream politics and power.

My view here is that though this is hard for many IRA victims families to bear, the IRA, however they spin it, lost.
Their self declared goal of a '32 County Socialist Republic', a damp Cuba in NW Europe, was not achieved.
Whatever we think of their past, these two had the intelligence around 20 years ago to realise it was not going to happen. Their 'Long War' looked to become the 'Unending War'.
Considering the fate of previous IRA men who sought compromise, like Micheal Collins, this could have been a risky move for them directly.

So I think that this compromise extended to former terrorists, even allowing for the fact that the forces of the state must be held to a much higher level than such people, should come into play here too.
They should have faced justice 38 years ago, another epic fail from the Heath Government.

[Edited 2010-06-15 13:24:44]

[Edited 2010-06-15 13:27:10]

User currently offlineBraybuddy From India, joined Aug 2004, 5793 posts, RR: 32
Reply 6, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2983 times:

It's interesting to note that the event can now be filed under the cock-up rather than the conspiracy theory, which, I believe, tends to be the case with most conspiracy theories.

Glad to see that the truth has finally come out, and seems to be accepted all around, not least by Prime Minister Cameron who made a very gracious apology on behalf of the British Governmnent.

Hopefully the whole episode has been finally laid to rest, and the relatives of the victims can put it all behind them once and for all.

Quoting alberchico (Reply 3):
Why the hell did it take so long to investigate this incident? Surely previous govt's must have slowed or delayed the investigation right ?

IIRC it was part of a deal in the mid-to-late '90s to get Sinn Fein to sign up to the peace process, which eventually saw the IRA "disband". There were many other atroicites in the North (on both sides) during the Troubles, but this was the one that had the biggest impact on the Nationalist/Catholic community.


User currently offlinescarebus03 From Ireland, joined Apr 2005, 305 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2920 times:

Although nothing to celebrate it certainly goes a long way in removing the most entrenched stain on Anglo-Irish relations since the troubles began.
I'm happy in a bittersweet way for the families of the victims as some closure has finally come to light.
Mr. Cameron's apology left me humbled as it was the first time that the British establishment has taken responsibility for what happened in Northern Ireland, kudos to him. I hope this will herald a brighter future and will allow the three governments to work together in a more positive way.

There is a long way to go but at least there is a willingness to put things right.

I for one salute David Cameron

Brgds

SB03



No faults found......................
User currently offlineshamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4211 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2915 times:

Quoting scarebus03 (Reply 7):
Mr. Cameron's apology left me humbled as it was the first time that the British establishment has taken responsibility for what happened in Northern Ireland, kudos to him. I hope this will herald a brighter future and will allow the three governments to work together in a more positive way.

There is a long way to go but at least there is a willingness to put things right.

I for one salute David Cameron

And I for two!!  

I was shocked to hear a British PM say the simple word "sorry". We've waited a long time to hear that, about any event in Irish History.

Yesterday dug up a lot of old feelings about the conflict, but the outright apology just stunned me. Well done Mr Cameron.

Now lets all move on.



Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently offlineEISHN From Ireland, joined Feb 2007, 1509 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2888 times:

Quoting scarebus03 (Reply 7):
I for one salute David Cameron

Hear hear, count me in too.

Has the Real IRA released any sort of statement.

Although this report brings some sort of closure (although we still need to hear about the DPP's decision on whether to prosecute any of the paras), I fear that the RIRA and other paramilitaries might throw a big spanner into the works. There have been more bombs, smarter bombs, and it's only a matter of time before something"big" happens.

However, the murder of two soldiers and one Policeman last year brought about a sort of solidarity in the North which shows that the RIRA won't win in their attempt to bring war back to the region.



St. Flannan/ Fhlanain- She took off to find the footlights, And I took off for the sky
User currently offlineoa260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27245 posts, RR: 60
Reply 10, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2870 times:

Quoting EISHN (Reply 9):
There have been more bombs, smarter bombs, and it's only a matter of time before something"big" happens.

True but at least this time Police on both sides of the border are working together and the old days of the Gards accused of maybe ''letting some through'' are long gone.

David Cameron is getting alot of respect , he is just what the UK needed.


User currently offlineshamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4211 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2851 times:

Quoting oa260 (Reply 10):
David Cameron is getting alot of respect , he is just what the UK needed.

Well, he has a lot of respect from the Republic of Ireland at any rate!

Sadly though I read some reaction in UK papers today along the lines of "Cameron sold out the British army". I was simply disgusted. Another choice comments was "what about Justice for the Birmingham and Guildford bombings". Aside from the fact that it was British police who just went and nicked the fist "damn paddies" they could find and banged them up for 20 odd years while the real killers went free, it shows an overwhelming lack of genorosity on what was a truly huge day for Ireland.

It sadly looks like a minority in the UK still cannot accept that the invasion and occupation of Ireland, and the subsequent handling of issues in Northern Ireland, were a mistake, were accompanied by brutal state terror, and were quite simply wrong.

Anyway, I trust from the generally positive response in the British media that such people are thankfully in the minority.



Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently offlineMD11junkie From Argentina, joined May 2005, 3148 posts, RR: 57
Reply 12, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2827 times:

Quoting alberchico (Reply 3):
Why the hell did it take so long to investigate this incident? Surely previous govt's must have slowed or delayed the investigation right ?

The investigation was commended by Labour PM Tony Blair in 1998. You can't just treat these matters lightly, especially if you start an inquiry (the 2nd one, for that matter) 28 years after (the actual hearings began in 2000). Hearing all of the witnesses accounts, IRA, Paras, bystanders, marchers and the list goes on. Some of the people participating in Bloody Sunday and couldn't be "questioned" (as they were dead) - therefore the Saville Inquiry had to rely on others testimony to build their accounts, and place them in the imaginary scene. Remember there were TONS of contradicting statements, with the Paras saying very different things from what the Marchers had to say (and some IRA members too).

It was a difficult task, and to my knowledge the Saville Inquiry should be set as a milestone for the whole world to try these acts of stupidity (there's no other word for it).

Finally, I want to congratulate PM David Cameron and express my sincere admiration for his courage to admit the wrong doing of the Government and the Paras in NI. Hearing him say:

"Some members of our armed forces acted wrongly. The government is ultimately responsible for the conduct of the armed forces and for that, on behalf of the government, indeed, on behalf of our country, I am deeply sorry."

...was absolutely fabulous.

And finally, what's most important after the Saville Inquiry:

"And come together to close this painful chapter on Northern Ireland's troubled past.

That is not to say we should ever forget or dismiss the past, but we must also move on. Northern Ireland has been transformed over the last 20 years and all of us in Westminster and Stormont must continue that work of change, coming together with all the people of Northern Ireland to build a stable, peaceful, prosperous and shared future. "


These fragments are part of what I consider a sensible and brilliant statment of the Prime Minister addressing the Commons, on the results of the Saville Inquiry.

You can read the report here.

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 2):
Well done Saville, Well done David Cameron, and thank you.

Cheers to that!

Saludos,



There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
User currently offlineoa260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27245 posts, RR: 60
Reply 13, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2826 times:

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 11):
It sadly looks like a minority in the UK still cannot accept that the invasion and occupation of Ireland, and the subsequent handling of issues in Northern Ireland, were a mistake, were accompanied by brutal state terror, and were quite simply wrong.

There are on both sides , you still have the idiots that think they are somehow going to re unite Ireland by planting bombs even if it means killing their own Irish Catholic brothers. Just like we saw in Omagh. These people are nothing more than criminals, the majority on the Island voted for peace and anyone caught these days trying to cause trouble should be banged up for life with no early release and a shoot to kill policy should be in force on both sides of the border if need be.


User currently offlineshamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4211 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2810 times:

Quoting oa260 (Reply 13):
There are on both sides , you still have the idiots that think they are somehow going to re unite Ireland by planting bombs even if it means killing their own Irish Catholic brothers. Just like we saw in Omagh. These people are nothing more than criminals, the majority on the Island voted for peace and anyone caught these days trying to cause trouble should be banged up for life with no early release and a shoot to kill policy should be in force on both sides of the border if need be.

Shoot to kill is exactly what got us in this mess in the First place. The widespread abuses of civil rights gave carte blanche to the security forces, and their subsequent actions fuelled radicalisation on both sides.

If you are going to lock people up, or end their crimes, at least do it honestly and stick to your principles. I know it can be difficult, but these painful events should have taught us that much.

While I accept that many wrongs have been commited oon both sides, we also have to accept that it was Britain's occupation of Ireland and it's policies during that time that caused this conflict in the first place. From that occupation, came plantations, the theft of lands, the displacement of populations, and the ultimate partition of the country (even if that partition was designed to protect at least one side of the community) You cant go around invading countries and expect people to just sit back and take it. A few other countries badly need to learn this too.

I am shocked how people in this day and age can still defend colonialism - yet another form of legitamised theft.



Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13241 posts, RR: 77
Reply 15, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2774 times:

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 11):
It sadly looks like a minority in the UK still cannot accept that the invasion and occupation of Ireland, and the subsequent handling of issues in Northern Ireland, were a mistake, were accompanied by brutal state terror, and were quite simply wrong.

Anyway, I trust from the generally positive response in the British media that such people are thankfully in the minority.

Correct, it would not surprise me if the Daily Mail linked it to house prices or 'immigrants'.
It is not anything like a majority view.

However,

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 14):
While I accept that many wrongs have been committed on both sides, we also have to accept that it was Britain's occupation of Ireland and it's policies during that time that caused this conflict in the first place. From that occupation, came plantations, the theft of lands, the displacement of populations, and the ultimate partition of the country (even if that partition was designed to protect at least one side of the community)

The fact remains the Protestant majority have been in N.I. rather longer than those who consider themselves the indigenous in many nation states today.
From the North and South and America and many other places.
Who we now call the British were colonised by Romans and Normans - and raided by Vikings as well as African slave traders.
It's everywhere.
The history of Ireland and Scotland's history with England is also bound up with the religious strife of centuries past, which in turn led to attempts by hostile foreign powers, to use these places as launchpads for possible invasion of England.

This is the problem of both N.I. Republicans and Loyalists presenting their histories as linear, simple, based on grievance.

History is messy, few are innocent.

As I mentioned above, there was no choice but to deploy troops in 1969, the failure was not previously addressing the legitimate concerns of Nationalists in the province (a place I think many in the UK government - with all that history in mind - wanted little to do with and found bewiildering).
Though the British PM who sent them in, Harold Wilson, soon developed a strong dislike for the hard core Unionists, (for all his many faults he had a very strong dislike for racism and prejudice in general), this is why I supect had he stayed in power Bloody Sunday probably would not have happened - since the other mistakes which led to the events might well have been averted - disbanding the 'B Speciails', a very sectarian bunch, icons of hard core Unionists, described by one Army officer as highly trained shots and little else.
British Army joke from that period - what's the difference between a pair of knickers and a B Specials landrover? Only one c**t in a pair of knickers!

With this announcement (and I agree Cameron did very well- given his party it cannot have been so easy), some would like to see some reciprocation.
Sinn Fein coming clean and admitting the IRA's long and extensive use of drug running and other crime would be good.

Also as before, with so many terrorists set free by the Good Friday agreement, trying to prosecute the Paras involved would be selctive justice - even allowing for their reponsibility as agents of the state.
Including the commander, who the report claims, disobeyed orders in deploying 1 Para in the way he did.
1972 was the time to have done that.


User currently offlinebjcc From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 327 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2765 times:

Leaving aside the rights and wrong of the origins of the issue, becuase it really does not matter now, it is how it is (and, I am only to well aware, my family being from Cork, and spent many years fighting the British, before changing sides). The fact is that feelings run as high in some places in the UK, where PIRA committed atrocities. Mostly those were against completely innocent civilians, and yet, PIRA, specifically, and their political leaders, who now have real power, will not conduct a similar exercise.
If you put it into that context, you can understand why the feelings have been expressed, and I have to agree, they have a point. The running sore that Bloody Sunday caused, in Ireland, is mirrored to an extent in places Like Brum, and Aldershot, but for them there will not be a solution.
That having been said, there has to be an end to this retrospective, Ireland can't go on living in the past, nor can Birmmingham and Aldershot.


User currently offlineoa260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27245 posts, RR: 60
Reply 17, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2752 times:

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 14):
Shoot to kill is exactly what got us in this mess in the First place. The widespread abuses of civil rights gave carte blanche to the security forces, and their subsequent actions fuelled radicalisation on both sides.

But times are different now and the ones planting bombs or trying to are far from freedom fighters the Irish need to accept that now , most do but there are still some minorities who have a warped dream. I live on the border so know the area/communities of both sides of the border. If someone is about to plant a bomb or refuses to stop and it known 100% that they are carrying something in a car then there is no issue but to shoot to kill. Its going to save lives.

Quoting GDB (Reply 15):
Sinn Fein coming clean and admitting the IRA's long and extensive use of drug running and other crime would be good.

Everyone knows they did its no secret, its a given here on both sides of the border. If you said that to someone here they would laugh and say ''You really didnt know that''. There were plenty of governments lining up to assist also it wasnt the drug running or crime that brought the big bucks in. The currency was $$ just to give you hint where it came from.

Anyway its finally come out that these people were unarmed innocent civillians and thats the most important thing, the UK troops and British government messed up big time that day and then tried to cover it up. At least justice has been done now. There is no doubt that for many years Catholics were the under dogs in their own country , this isnt the case today.


User currently offlineBraybuddy From India, joined Aug 2004, 5793 posts, RR: 32
Reply 18, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 2736 times:

Quoting oa260 (Reply 17):
it wasnt the drug running or crime that brought the big bucks in. The currency was $$ just to give you hint where it came from.

They're certainly not bucks, but twenty six million pounds from the Northern Bank probably helped too . . .


User currently offlineshamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4211 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2692 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 15):
The fact remains the Protestant majority have been in N.I. rather longer than those who consider themselves the indigenous in many nation states today.
From the North and South and America and many other places.
Who we now call the British were colonised by Romans and Normans - and raided by Vikings as well as African slave traders.
It's everywhere.

I think you have misinterpreted my view there, but thats understandable, I am not saying for a minute that the Protestant population should have to leave, or not be accomodated in any way. I accept that NI is now there, and it cant be dissolved without the agreement of the majority.

I would not wish to discommode such a large section of our society. My vision of a united Ireland is not some papist state, but an inclusive one, and one achieved by peace, and not by terror.

But, one has to make the point that had it not been for the forced plantations of Irish lands, would the issue of a divided country ever have arisen? This is the legacy Ireland has been left with, and one we now must deal with in a compassionate way.

I know Colonialism happened everywhere - but I will never agree that it was right, and I will never agree that our campaign for freedom was unjustified. Britain commited unspeakable acts against this country and its people, and despite the fact that we are all now willing to move on, I will never ever feel that Ireland should somehow feel guilty for wanting her Independence.

Quoting oa260 (Reply 17):
If someone is about to plant a bomb or refuses to stop and it known 100% that they are carrying something in a car then there is no issue but to shoot to kill. Its going to save lives.

If it is 100% known, then shoot the f*****r in the leg, arm or whatever and disable him. Trained officers should be well capable. A shoot to kill policy leaves security forces wide open to suspicions, which could only help fuel radicalism.

Quoting bjcc (Reply 16):
If you put it into that context, you can understand why the feelings have been expressed, and I have to agree, they have a point. The running sore that Bloody Sunday caused, in Ireland, is mirrored to an extent in places Like Brum, and Aldershot, but for them there will not be a solution.

That sore has been felt by all of us. I hope the people of the UK realise how disgusted we were by these atrocities too. Unfortunatly, UK police botched these investigations, and have probably made them so politically sensitive that it would be difficult to now seek prosecutions.

This is why I am not in favour of charges being brought against the Paras. Given that prisoner release was one of the main tenets of the peace process, it would be unfair to now seek redress in the other direction.



Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently offlineoa260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27245 posts, RR: 60
Reply 20, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2691 times:

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 18):
They're certainly not bucks, but twenty six million pounds from the Northern Bank probably helped too . . .


It goes way back before the Northern Bank   Collecting outside Mass in New York ''For the children of Ireland''


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13241 posts, RR: 77
Reply 21, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2634 times:

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 19):
If it is 100% known, then shoot the f*****r in the leg, arm or whatever and disable him. Trained officers should be well capable. A shoot to kill policy leaves security forces wide open to suspicions, which could only help fuel radicalism.

That's for the movies, if you have to use a lethal firearm, aim for the legs you'll likely miss - or if you don't might well sever a main artery. Hence aiming for the largest target - the centre of the body.
Hence the use by the police and army of plastic bullets, having petrol and acid bombs thrown at you is no joke, is potentially fatal, add in the fact that many disturbances were 'come ons' for the security forces - making them more vulnerable to armed attack - the baton rounds put distance between the security forces and rioters too.

Baton rounds were also controversial, some had a lethal effect, designed to be 'like a hard punch', well a single hard punch can kill too.
Throwing potentially lethal projectiles at armed police or army is a very risky act in itself.

Repeated in the wake of the announcement of the inquiry, was the excellent Bloody Sunday , made in 2002, a reconstruction of that day, directed by Paul Greengrass, who went on to direct the last two Bourne films and United 93.
One scene in this film has been debunked by the Saville inquiry, that the army planted blast bombs on one of the dead.
He was carrying them. But for someone else? Who knows, nonetheless using rifle fire against such a target was seen as excessive, unless he was about to throw one, which seems unlikely.

But I do find some of the 'givens' of Irish Republicanism somewhat one eyed.
1916 - Would the British response had been as severe if most of the nations young men were not fighting the First World War, with all the horrors that brought?
Again, we can never know.
To many in the UK, the Easter Rising would have been seen as possibly another front in this world war.

Then there was the effect of Irish PM De Valera, a one man recruiting army for hostile Ulster Loyalism.
He retarded the economic and social development of Eire for decades, small wonder the largest export was many of the best and brightest, or just those who wanted out.
Many, a majority, only had to go far as crossing the Irish sea to build a better life.
This one cannot be laid at the door of the 'Brits'.

There has always be a hypocrisy in the Orange Order and the like, they made much hay about the repressive 'Priest Ridden' South, though they themselves were hardly getting with the programme with the liberalisation in the mainland UK which they pledged such alligence to.
But just imagine what Paisley and co would done if the revelations about Catholic child abuse in Ireland had become known a few decades sooner?

For the vast majority of the some 250,000 British troops who did tours in N.I. over all those years, there was little difference in Nationalist and Loyalist, the year after Bloody Sunday, another Parachute Regiment Battalion, 3 PARA, had it's biggest contact on their Belfast tour with Loyalist gunmen on the Shankill Road.
Started after they searched Loyalist drinking clubs for arms based on information provided.

As the IRA campaign escalated, the Eire government introduced legislation against the IRA, more severe than on the UK mainland, for thier part, the Provos called the Eire government 'The Shit State'.

Mention has been made of the serious injustices of the Guilford Four and Birmingham Six, however context is needed.
We enjoyed the rip roaring TV series Life On Mars a few years back, with it's depiction of 1970's British policing.
On one hand there is a humour in the unreconstructed, very un 'PC' attitudes, on the other, the physical interrogation and fit ups.

It wasn't just 'hauling the nearest Paddies off the street', there were many others with noting to do with N.I. and terrorism too.
People locked up for murder who had 'confessed' after severe pressure put on them with no legal representation, no interview recording, often the suspect was of lower intelligence or vulnerable in other ways.
Stefan Kiskow, mental age of 12, nearly 20 years inside for killing a young girl before the case was quashed. (More recently, DNA advances caught the real killer).
The 'Bridgewater Three', convicted of gunning down a paperboy who stumbled upon a break in and plenty of others.

Even after the requirement of recorded interviews and other legislation to try and prevent repeats, there have been other cases, the attempt to snare Colin Stagg for the murder of Racheal Nickell, another inadequate Barry George falsely imprisoned for shooting TV presenter Jill Dando.

What have all these, including the wrongful convictions of IRA suspects, have in common?
They were all very high profile cases, much media frenzy, crimes which shocked the nations, thus putting the Police and justice system under severe pressure to solve them.
These institutions being staffed with fallible humans, the desire to 'get a result' led to false assumptions, cutting corners and worse.
Not an excuse, just a fact of life.


User currently offlineshamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4211 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2620 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 21):
Then there was the effect of Irish PM De Valera, a one man recruiting army for hostile Ulster Loyalism.
He retarded the economic and social development of Eire for decades, small wonder the largest export was many of the best and brightest, or just those who wanted out.
Many, a majority, only had to go far as crossing the Irish sea to build a better life.
This one cannot be laid at the door of the 'Brits'.

Again, I feel im a being misrepresented here. Just because I lay the blame for the conflict at the door of the British, It doesnt mean I dont recognise the faults of the Irish government or anyone else. There is a perception that if you hold these views about the source of the conflict, that you buy into all the IRA propaganda. That is simply not true, and is definitely not true in my case.

De Valera was no great Irishman. He retarded Ireland for too long, and at a time when we should have been showing loyalism genorosity, showing the modern, secular Republic that we were forming, his government destroyed any chance of that with his insular, mono cultural ways.

Quoting GDB (Reply 21):
There has always be a hypocrisy in the Orange Order and the like, they made much hay about the repressive 'Priest Ridden' South, though they themselves were hardly getting with the programme with the liberalisation in the mainland UK which they pledged such alligence to.

Bang on. If anything, it is the Republic which is now the real secular, multi cultural state, but even still some are finding new ways to criticise us. We have gone from being cast as "poor and backward" to being "materialistic and fake". I've even been called a "nazi" by a Northern Loyalist because I live in a country where the Main Railway station in Dublin has a 20 cent fee for toilet usage!!!!! (one wonders had he ever been outside the 6 counties before)

Quoting GDB (Reply 21):
Mention has been made of the serious injustices of the Guilford Four and Birmingham Six, however context is needed.
We enjoyed the rip roaring TV series Life On Mars a few years back, with it's depiction of 1970's British policing.
On one hand there is a humour in the unreconstructed, very un 'PC' attitudes, on the other, the physical interrogation and fit ups.

I only mention those injustices because there are some commenting in English papers saying the the Bloody sunday enquiry was a waste of money, exhonerated terrorists, and "where was the justice for the victims of Birmingham and Guildford". I was simply making the point that if these people have an issue (and they do - and are entitled to), then take it up with their own police who botched the investigations. That was all. I am not bringing it up to score points.

Quoting GDB (Reply 21):
1916 - Would the British response had been as severe if most of the nations young men were not fighting the First World War, with all the horrors that brought?
Again, we can never know.
To many in the UK, the Easter Rising would have been seen as possibly another front in this world war.

Sorry, but tough luck Britain. Britain was occupying this country against the wishes of the majority, and quite frankly, whatever chance the 1916 guys had to get rid of them, they should have taken it, World War 1 or no World War 1. I'm sure Britain took advantage of perceived weaknesses on the part of it's opponents in that war and others as well - thats what you do to win.

People in the UK seem to just not get this point - Ireland was being occupied against the wishes of the vast majority of its people. That is a military occupation. What is so different about Britain fighting valliantly for her freedom during World War 2 and us fighting for ours in 1916?

Quite simply, there is no difference. The British people need to wake up and accept that the Irish are not just "renegade Brits" who simply wanted "out" of the "Union" but a distinct ethnicity who wanted their freedom, and were sick of being pushed around in their own country. What is so wrong with that?

Should we Paddies have thought "oh no, we cant possibly strike for freedom now, while they are fighting a war, that would be awfully unfair on our colonial oppressors"?? No, of course not, we saw our opportunity and we went for it, and I am damn glad we did.

This isnt because I dont like Britain (I do!), or I dont like the British (I do also!), but because I am Irish, not British. I do not have a British identity, I do not feel any special bond with Britain apart from the normal neighbourliness, and I want us to govern ourselves, but to have an excellent relationship with all our neighbours, and especially with those with whom we now share a language.

I am an outward focused, modern Irishman who welcomes multi culturalism, rejects dogma be it religious or political, and is willing to move on. But that doesnt mean I have to pretend that history didnt happen and that Ireland somehow deserved the treatment it got. It didnt.



Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13241 posts, RR: 77
Reply 23, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2603 times:

Shamrock, I do get the point about the perceived occupation, however 'Home Rule' for Ireland was a major political issue for British governments over decades, it felled administrations, ended political careers, made others, created divisions within parties.
The obstacle was of course, a colonial legacy, the unionist population in the North, Carson and all those (German) rifles shipped in to resist, if it came to it, the mainland British if the whole of Ireland was forced into home rule.
Did the new Republic avoid the sort of strife we saw from the late 60's, but decades sooner with those fighting for their 'home rule' against a new Eire government and people?

Before independence, the two islands were closely intertwined, culturally in particular, large numbers of Irish - not of the north, served in the British Army including in WW1. And would in WW2, after Irish independence.
There were large numbers then, as now, of Irish living and working in Britain.
Of course a substantial number of Irish always wanted independence, that grew after attempts at a political home rule agreement was stalled more than once.

So yes, for these reasons many in Britain did see Ireland as naturally part of Britain, not as a far flung colony peopled by those of a different race and creed, however odd that might seem now, they saw Ireland the same way they saw Scotland.
The world is full of islands of two (or more) distinct nations, for all sorts of political/historic reasons.
Irish independence was inevitable, it was seen by many in the UK as such, as despite those links, the culture, sense of nationhood, the major faith practiced in Ireland , made such a severing certain at some point.
It could have, probably should have, been before WW1, even before the start of the 20th century, but like other parts of the world, it wasn't as simple to bring it about.

Another irony is that, increasingly, the Unionists, particularly the Orange Order, were to the average Britain more alien to them than a Irish person, who they probably knew plenty of at home.
Including after independence.
All that fire and brimstone brand of Protestantism, the social structures, that ultra patriotism, Ulster was not a part of Britain that 'swung' in the 60's and beyond.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 24, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2579 times:

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 19):
This is why I am not in favour of charges being brought against the Paras. Given that prisoner release was one of the main tenets of the peace process, it would be unfair to now seek redress in the other direction.

In two minds myself, shamrock604. From seeing the TV newsreels at the time, I have always felt that this wasn't an entire unit running amok - but that it amounted to relatively few soldiers completely losing their heads and firing indiscriminately. I can still remember, on the newsreels, seeing and hearing an officer shouting, "Stop firing, STOP firing......." while the SLRs were bang-banging away.........

And then there's 'Soldier H' - the 'I fired at a window' man. I saw him interviewed on TV too - and was struck by his strong Glasgow-Scottish accent. His actual evidence is still on file. At the original (Widgery) enquiry he admitted to (in company with 'Soldier F' and 'Soldier G') shooting several 'youths' who were 'believed to be carrying nailbombs.' Then he testified:-

On the west sido of the flats about 200 metres from my passing location, the patrol came under fire from a concealed. sniper, using a high velocity rifle. I located his position to be a toilet facing me. He was firing from the window, about 1 ft square.

"I took a covering position, cocked my rifle, and fired 17 x 7.62 aimed shots at the sniper. I then changed my magazine, loaded the rifle with a fresh magazine and fired 2- x 7-.62-shots., He did not return fire. No investigation of the premises was carried out."


http://report.bloody-sunday-inquiry.org/evidence/B/B218.pdf

My reaction at the time was - and remains to this day - that someone should have cross-examined him (starting with the old army phrase, "Pull the other leg, mate, it's got bells on it......"); and that, further, someone should have taken him to Belfast and invited him to identify the 'window' he was referring to. If 19 rounds from an SLR HAD in fact been fired at it, there'd have been plenty of evidence even years later (even today, for that matter). It wouldn't have been the sort of damage that you could tidy up with a tube of Polyfilla and a can of emulsion paint.

AND, of course, someone should have asked him why he felt it was necessary to reload and fire a total of 19 rounds in any case, since (by his own admission) the 'alleged' sniper was not returning fire...........

The Army storemen will have recorded all the ammunition 'out and in' in accordance with standard procedure. He had to explain what he had fired no less than 22 rounds at. So it's highly probable (to say the least) that he just plain invented the 'sniper at the window' story........

Tend to agree, though, that there will not be any prosecutions. Not because of any ideas about 'natural justice' or anything - just that the tragedy was not properly investigated at the time, and it's too late now: so that there is no evidence on which to base any proceedings..........



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
25 shamrock604 : We are still intertwined GDB, and I have no issue with that at all. Its a good thing, and is how any two neighbours should get along! I must also con
26 bjcc : But surely, the Ulster, which is part of the United Kingdom, shares many of the symbols of Eire? Given that is the case, then the flags of the United
27 GDB : Bad as colonialism often was, by ALL nations who practiced it, it is worth recalling how some in the Far East saw, for a moment, the Japanese as libe
28 Braybuddy : There are two main differences here: as a memeber of the EU we get to keep our own identity (even if we've handed-over a lot of decision-making to Br
29 Post contains links Aaron747 : Bono attempts to educate Americans on the subject in his NYT column this week: every Irish person conscious on that day has a mental picture of Edward
30 Post contains images NAV20 : Bit of a mix-up here, Braybuddy, IMO. First point is, Southern Ireland 'achieved' - or 'was granted' - 'Dominion status' in 1921. This effectively ma
31 EISHN : Wrong. The Anti-Treaty (Ireggulars) lost the Civil War. The Free State Government (Cumman na nGael) ruled until 1932, when the recently formed Fianna
32 Toulouse : The key element here EISHN, and what so many foreigners seem to misunderstand about the "troubles" in N. Ireland.
33 Braybuddy : While we were indeed a member of the Commonwealth until 1948, Irish people look on the secession from the United Kingdom as de facto independence. Wh
34 Post contains links NAV20 : Sorry, EISHN, but that seems to confirm, rather than deny, my impression that politics in Ireland in those days were based on religion, not 'policies
35 GDB : One major difference between the IRA and AQ, the former were not inclined to suicide bombing, indeed they had a tendency towards self preservation. (T
36 Post contains links EISHN : How many people do you think joined the IRA because because the Protestants were all about divorce, contraception, and just being a heathen in genera
37 Post contains links oa260 : Analysis: Saville's Bloody Sunday legacy "1 Para arrived in Londonderry on the morning of Sunday 30th January 1972." And from one simple, opening sent
38 shamrock604 : You say that Like the IRA represents the people of Ireland - they dont, they are a terror group. We cant "unelect" the IRA because they arent legitim
39 GDB : The RUC did have this element, however, at the start of the Troubles it had some 20% Catholics in it's ranks, after a sustained IRA campaign of intim
40 oa260 : In fairness the RUC were rife with Loyalist supporters and turned a blind eye to many a Catholic being killed or beaten. I lived in the North whilst
41 NAV20 : Shamrock604, as GDB accurately points out, that sort of thing was happening all over Europe. It had it's roots in policies of 'enclosure'; people (no
42 Post contains links Baroque : For a pre-troubles view of the IRA (intended to be humorous and satirical against the English) "The Irishman now our contempt is beneath He sleeps in
43 Post contains images Braybuddy : The difference between wheat was happening "in Britain and all over Europe" and here was that in the British we had a clearly defined enemy, a foreign
44 Baroque : The other issue for the Nationalistic elements of the Ireland if they follow some of the Irish lines of thought, what would be their reaction if all t
45 overlander : The Saville Enquiry white washed the most shocking part of Bloody Sunday. My Father was an NCO in the Dental Corp based in Palace Barracks, Hollywood,
46 Toulouse : NAV20, I continue to support EISHN. The Unionists just happened to be Protestants (as we know Britain is a predominantly protestant nation) while the
47 Post contains images NAV20 : That sort of thing has happened before, and will happen again, overlander. See my post above:- However, I really can't blame the investigators for no
48 GDB : if it had been a premeditated attack, a lot more than 108 rounds would have been fired (bad enough), a lot more than 14 dead too. Face it, some over-
49 Braybuddy : For someone who believes in putting the past behind, you retain a remarkable amount of detail of past events, NAV20. Pray tell?
50 GDB : 1796, 15000 French troops attempting a landing in Ireland in an abortive attempt to both expunge British influence there AND then as a bridgehead to
51 Post contains links Baroque : To which could be added http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fishguard The Battle of Fishguard was a military invasion of Great Britain by Revoluti
52 Braybuddy : I'm sure the British were shaking in their shoes.
53 NAV20 : Don't forget that, at the time, Britain was in a virtually-constant state of war with Revolutionary France, that was to persist until Waterloo in 181
54 GDB : Given recent events - best not try that in Belgium!
55 Braybuddy : Just what planet/century are you living in? Reading that statement alone I really wonder about your sources, and how out of touch you are with this c
56 MD11Engineer : Well, from what I´ve learned while living in Ireland, the Catholic church has tried to ride on Irish nationalism and has several times tried to usur
57 Post contains images Baroque : Funny thing to complain about Nav quoting material that might be 30 or 40 years out of date when part of the argument is stated to be "invasions" by C
58 Post contains links Braybuddy : It is said that McQuaid had such an influence over Dev that the latter sent him a draft of the constitution for his prior approval, but that says eve
59 MD11Engineer : Back then (1998) the headmaster told me that the schools in the area were either Catholic or Protestant and that his school (Catholic) was just prepa
60 Braybuddy : Well these days discrimiation in any form is against the law. Had you gone to a solicitor this would've been sorted out, and you probably would've po
61 oa260 : These days its totally different. in my area there are numerous multi ethnic schools and children from all backgrounds , dont think its an issue even
62 MD11Engineer : Well, my Ex decided not to join me in Ireland, and after a few years our marriage was in pieces. Fortunately I met my present fiancee while living in
63 Braybuddy : Hey would love to! Next time you're over IM me and we can arrange a hook-up and go for a pint somewhere in the capital. My German is very rusty but y
64 GDB : While I think it's well established outside of Ireland, that the country is no longer in thrall to the Catholic Church, the point is that the conflict
65 bjcc : I'm sorry that the impression given by me led to a conclusion that all Irish Catholics support the IRA, thats far from what I said, or meant. My famil
66 Braybuddy : You're a lot more informed on the NI situation than most British -- or Irish -- people woud be bjcc, and I commend you on that. The only supporters of
67 Post contains links and images NAV20 : In all fairness, Braybuddy, I was replying to a post of yours which referred to an 'incident' in 1797...... Trouble is, in my case, I can indeed look
68 MD11Engineer : This wouldn´t surprise me at all, but for a different reason than you would think. When I was living in Shannon, there was a traveler´s camp near t
69 EISHN : Unfortunately NOTHING at all has changed, and it won't. The traveling "society" is protected under Irish law, and is subject to "special" treatment b
70 Post contains images NAV20 : 'Seconded,' 'thirded,' and 'fourthed,' EISHN........
71 Post contains images Braybuddy : I've checked all my posts prior to that reply, and I can't find any reference to an "incident" in 1797. NAV20. Nor in post after that, but maybe I've
72 EISHN : Completely agree with you. It's actually something that's been on my mind for a while. To me it makes sense that the only way for things to be "fair"
73 bjcc : The idea of what would amount to a semi autonomous North Irish state was something I avoided mentioning. I think the perception that most Brits would
74 NAV20 : Cheers, Braybuddy. To put it in context (hope all these quotes work!) this was the exchange I was responding to:- Hope that explains the 'connection'
75 bjcc : I think as well as my edited point about PIRA and the Official IRA, the point also needs to be made, that PIRA was riddled with informants, and leaks
76 MD11Engineer : The funny thing is that leading members of the old original Irish nationalist movement (when ALL of Ireland was still Britsh), such as Parnell, were
77 Braybuddy : My thinking behind this is that, with the province either part of the UK or a united Ireland, one section of the population feels hard done by. An in
78 NAV20 : Just about all contributors to this thread appear to be very close to agreement (a rarity on A.net, doubly so on the inflammatory issue of Ireland!).
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