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Gen. McChrystal To Be Fired?  
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12883 posts, RR: 12
Posted (3 years 10 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3865 times:

General McChrystal is being ordered to appear at a meeting with President Obama tommorow due to explain critizism by him and others on his senior staff published in an article in 'Rolling Stone' magazine of the President, the Vice President, other political leaders, suggesting they are 'wimps' and other serious challanges to their authority as to our prosuction of the war in Afganistan. Here is a article: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37839756/ns/politics-white_house/

Although he has been apoligizing for his terrible judgment in participating in this article, his is facing a very serious problem and he may have violated the UCMJ and other laws that effectively bans such critizism of the Commander-in-Chief. He may have to resign from the military immediately or be fired by the President, much like Gen. McAuthur had to fired during the Korean War by then Pres. Truman.

The general's actions are being condemmend by all political sides, it is in a total violation of the clear position of civililan over the military. The military are to follow orders of the political leadership, and never challange them. There is also serious questions as to his even allowing any reporter so close to his inner circle and to make such statements on the public record. Maybe there is some hope that this may finally break our continued war in Afganistan, to bring out the reality that we are in another unwinnable Vietnam and we need to withdraw ASAP.

129 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltaMD11 From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 1701 posts, RR: 35
Reply 1, posted (3 years 10 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3849 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
The military are to follow orders of the political leadership, and never challange them.

Gen McChyrstal to my knowledge in no way has challenged the orders given to him, he has and should continue to highlight problematic areas and request more personnel and resources to execute the mission. Was it in poor taste to allow his and the comments of his staff make it to the press...of course. Should he be fired...no. Reprimanded in a "don't do that again or I'll have you steaming letters open in a basement with no windows" conversation with the boss...more than likely. There will almost always be a disconnect between the civilian complex that controls the military and the requirements of ground force commanders to get the job done. Then again commanders don't have votes to win.



Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
Maybe there is some hope that this may finally break our continued war in Afganistan, to bring out the reality that we are in another unwinnable Vietnam and we need to withdraw ASAP.

Withdraw and let the progress that we've made founder? Will only create far worse problems for us down the road. Nobody said this whole thing was going to be simple and without great cost.



Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
User currently offlinedxing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (3 years 10 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3831 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
prosuction

Well you got that part right. The way we are prosecuting this war now truly does suck.

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
Although he has been apoligizing for his terrible judgment in participating in this article, his is facing a very serious problem and he may have violated the UCMJ and other laws that effectively bans such critizism of the Commander-in-Chief. He may have to resign from the military immediately or be fired by the President, much like Gen. McAuthur had to fired during the Korean War by then Pres. Truman.

Totally different situations. Gen. MacArthur openly and viciously disagreed with set policy. All I see here is that he has made some insulting personal remarks. Unless there is something in the article where he disagrees with set policy and advocates a different course then a dressing down is in order and his access to the press will probably be severely restricted in the future.

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
The general's actions are being condemmend by all political sides, it is in a total violation of the clear position of civililan over the military. The military are to follow orders of the political leadership, and never challange them

Exactly how is he not following the orders of the President? As to challenging them, it is the militaries responsibility to challange upcoming decisions in policy if they feel they are wrong. However once the decision is made, then they are to shut up and go about the business of making those decisions, no matter how dumb they are, happen.

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
There is also serious questions as to his even allowing any reporter so close to his inner circle and to make such statements on the public record.

Which will most likely be addressed by installing a new PIO at the Generals command, one that answers to the JCS and not the General.

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
Maybe there is some hope that this may finally break our continued war in Afganistan, to bring out the reality that we are in another unwinnable Vietnam and we need to withdraw ASAP.

The biggest comparison now to Vietnam is the ridiculous ROE's that the troops are being given.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2010/06/22/AR2010062200813_pf.html

One soldier at the outpost showed Hastings, who was traveling with the general, a written directive instructing troops to "patrol only in areas that you are reasonably certain that you will not have to defend yourself with lethal force."

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/will062010.php3

"Receiving mortar fire during an overnight mission, his unit called for a 155mm howitzer illumination round to be fired to reveal the enemy's location. The request was rejected "on the grounds that it may cause collateral damage." The NCO says that the only thing that comes down from an illumination round is a canister, and the likelihood of it hitting someone or something was akin to that of being struck by lightning.

Returning from a mission, his unit took casualties from an improvised explosive device that the unit knew had been placed no more than an hour earlier"


as well as....

"When the artillery support was denied because of fear of collateral damage, the unit asked for a "smoke mission" -- like an illumination round; only the canister falls to earth -- "to conceal our movement as we planned to flank and destroy the enemy." This request was granted -- but because of fear of collateral damage, the round was deliberately fired one kilometer off the requested site, making "the smoke mission useless and leaving us to fend for ourselves."

I'm more worried about the extra danger political decisions may be making in this battle with stupid ROE's than a few off the cuff and stupid remarks by a General who is still probably the best for the job.


User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (3 years 10 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3803 times:

First, I gotta say... how is it that this article was ever entertained, let alone given the green light?! Especially considering almost every soldier/marine knows to never talk to Rolling Stone, Esquire, NYT, etc. How do we all know this, but the top didn't?

Second, you don't have to stretch all the way back to 1951 with Gen. MacArthur being fired. Simply look back as early as 2006 when Admiral Fallon "resigned" his post as commander of CENTCOM. After a report in Esquire, he was shown the door.

Third, to answer the questions above, Article 88 of the USMJ Contempt Towards Officials says:

Quote:
“Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.”

...There you have it, the possible ground work for asking for his resignation.

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
The military are to follow orders of the political leadership, and never challange them.

Seriously? Never challenge them?? I have a sneaking suspicion that if he followed some questionable orders, you would be the first to jump on him for knowing better. You can't have it both ways.

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
Maybe there is some hope that this may finally break our continued war in Afganistan, to bring out the reality that we are in another unwinnable Vietnam and we need to withdraw ASAP.

You know, I was in Iraq in '06, when the war was at its lowest point. And you can go back and read some of my comments from then, but I was fairly certain that it wasn't going to end well. At the same time, I wasn't one of those idiots who loved to compare Iraq to Viet Nam. I was also a strong supporter of Gen Patreaus's new strategies, and I am the first to admit that I never thought they would be as successful, as they have been.

So with that being said, I see a lot of similarities today in Afghanistan. I would say we are at the lowest point in the war -- but just like I said in '06 in Iraq - I feel like we're at a crossroad, and there is an opportunity to truly turn this thing around. The issue with the ROE (and yes, the rules are about the strictest I have ever seen!) are way more complicated than some make them out to be, but that's a subject for another day.

I personally like Gen. McChrystal, and have deep respect for him. I would be disappointed to see him leave prematurely, and I wonder who is big enough to fill his slot?


User currently offlinedl021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11445 posts, RR: 76
Reply 4, posted (3 years 10 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3798 times:
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The entire idea that he allowed a Rolling Stone reporter to follow him for weeks is unbelievable. Uttering remarks critical of his civilian superiors (in rank at least) is remarkably poor judgement.

He probably ought to be fired for open insubordination. If he's not the Obama adminstration will be perceived as weak. If he isn't fired they'll be perceived as weak. He's compromised his ability to get what he believes he needs for the troops to accomplish their mission. The ridiculous ROE are part of a strategy to pull back on the use of force in order to reduce the excuses the enemy has to blame stuff on us and generate more resentment towards us. Afghanistan is a country in name only, made so by an amalgamation of different tribes by a previous colonial occupier, and the only time they've ever united is when they're throwing out foreigners whom they consider occupiers. Our only chance of creating stability there is to give their central government the tools and opportunity to unite a bunch of people who don't want to be told what to do.

What he's gotten so far is what he thought he needed, and that over the objections and protestations of people in the administration. Now he's given those vindictive and highly politicized individuals the room they needed to sabotage his efforts for their own ends and made what was already a supremely difficult and dangerous job only moreso.

I think he is a very smart and tough individual (he's a Delta guy with long experience) and he knew what he was doing, or should have.....which means there's no excuse, and he ought to be fired for violations of the UCMJ and for being a jackass and we bring Petraeus' deputy up to run that theater. But then again no one's asking me. Best case is that he's given more rope and he pulls it out between now and the end of the year. He's going to be relieved at some point, though. Sooner or later.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 5, posted (3 years 10 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3786 times:

Quoting DeltaMD11 (Reply 1):
Withdraw and let the progress that we've made founder?



I know it is like choosing between brain cancer or heart disease .... but it is going to happen. Something is very wrong over there.... powers in the background somehow are keeping the insurgency alive and emboldened. Add to that our troops are in a boxing match where the opponent knows we are stepping out of the ring in 5th round ...puts everyone in a very weird situation. President Obama can not be slugging it out there and hope to get elected in 2012...they know it and we know it. And him setting a time table for withdrawal , although I agree we should get out ... was poorly handled.

Difference between President Bush and President Obama ... Bush did not worry about the politics his only goal was stability and freedom in Afghanistan (as he said over and over). Not saying his decisions were all good ...but we knew why we were there.

President Obama has done damage to AQ and other groups in PAK ect. His aggressive use of drones and special operations I believe has hurt the enemy ...but he is in a bad crack politically so it does not have the effect overall he wants.

I want our people out of there ...



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (3 years 10 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3783 times:

Quoting dl021 (Reply 4):
and we bring Petraeus' deputy up to run that theater.

I have nothing but the highest respect for General Allen, but he has never really commanded something as large (the largest command was brigade level), as a theater command. Not to mention, it would require him being promoted to 4 star.

But Gen. Odierno is wrapping up his command of MNF-Iraq. He and General Patreaus are the ones who turned Iraq around, and is extremely well liked and respected by many in the Army. If the Army had to make the best of a bad situation, getting Gen Patreaus and Odierno back together again, wouldn't be so bad.


User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 7, posted (3 years 10 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3748 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 6):
If the Army had to make the best of a bad situation, getting Gen Patreaus and Odierno back together again, wouldn't be so bad.



Although I respect them both immensely and I agree with you ... I just don't know what else could be done. We have surged troops , and from what I read we are killing the enemy and holding territory ; but somehow it is not winning the peace like it did in Iraq. I know its a different war totaly and not to be compared ..so we may put Gen Odierno into a lose lose situation.

Our leadership thinks in terms of political standing and naturally will do what seems politically expedient ...not sure Gen.Odierno and Patreaus see the war in that way ( Not sure).



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4869 posts, RR: 16
Reply 8, posted (3 years 10 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3691 times:

Fired or not, this is also a matter for the JAG to decide, right? I see a flag officer undermining his C-in-C in public, and if he is kept on, only serves to confirm the 'wimp' accusation.

User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10998 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (3 years 10 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3677 times:

I think Obama should make McChrystal peel his potatoes, stand at attention for a day in the hot Washington sun, receive a public dressing down, and then be sent back to work in Afghanistan. (I would suggest the same thing for Joe Wilson, btw.)

I'm not convinced he's not the best man for the job, but I am absolutely convinced that such an egregious misstep should be punished in an embarrassing way.



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User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 11932 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (3 years 10 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3640 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 3):

Third, to answer the questions above, Article 88 of the USMJ Contempt Towards Officials says:

Quote:
“Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.”

...There you have it, the possible ground work for asking for his resignation.

And the bad judgment alone is worthy of a re-posting to some backwater and/or demotion.

As C-in-C this is all within the pervue of the President.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 3):
At the same time, I wasn't one of those idiots who loved to compare Iraq to Viet Nam.

Those of us "idiots" doing that didn't "love" doing it.

But I still wish the Idiot-in-Chief had some deeper knowledge of the era, other than doing his best to not fly for the Texas ANG. Instead he let the neo-con idiots convince him that Americans would all be welcomed as heros. Unfortunately many Americans had to pay for his idiocy with their lives.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 5):
.. powers in the background somehow are keeping the insurgency alive and emboldened.

It's well understood that the Pakistani ISI works to engineer a stalemate. They feel if Afghanistan is strong and independent then Pakistan will have threats on either side of it, which I think is absurd, but apparently they don't. The only time Pakistan works to aid the US is when terrorists threaten the power of the Pakistani government directly.

Quoting comorin (Reply 8):
Fired or not, this is also a matter for the JAG to decide, right? I see a flag officer undermining his C-in-C in public, and if he is kept on, only serves to confirm the 'wimp' accusation.

Letting the JAG decide would be wimpy. The JAG only gets involved when someone is court-marshaled. The President has every option open to him, and using a court-marshal would be a bad choice. Note MacArthur didn't get court-marshaled.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8045 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (3 years 10 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3630 times:

McChrystal has demonstrated exceptionally poor judgement, as has those in his staff that do not know how to keep their mouths shut. Anyone who served with a security clearance knows about keeping your mouth shut.

So we know that a lot of security clearances need to be pulled. Some don't deserve a Confidential level clearance, much less any level important.

Then there is the small issue of the officers involved having the confidence of their superior. These duds lost the confidence all the way up the chain of command. All the way to the top. Sort of a Dumb & Dumber thing.

Time for replacements, And a lot of them.


User currently offlinedl021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11445 posts, RR: 76
Reply 12, posted (3 years 10 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3601 times:
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Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 6):
But Gen. Odierno is wrapping up his command of MNF-Iraq. He and General Patreaus are the ones who turned Iraq around, and is extremely well liked and respected by many in the Army. If the Army had to make the best of a bad situation, getting Gen Patreaus and Odierno back together again, wouldn't be so bad.

I said Deputy and I had it stuck in my head that Odierno was that.....He's the guy I was thinking about putting in charge. You're right...it would be making the best of a bad situation.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 11):
So we know that a lot of security clearances need to be pulled. Some don't deserve a Confidential level clearance, much less any level important.

Then there is the small issue of the officers involved having the confidence of their superior. These duds lost the confidence all the way up the chain of command. All the way to the top. Sort of a Dumb & Dumber thing.

Confidential hasn't been a security clearance in over 20 years. These guys aren't duds.....they're among the best and brightest in the military, or really anywhere. They enjoyed the confidence of their leaders and felt comfortable enough to speak their minds. The problem is that the atmosphere of disrespect toward their civilian chain of command wasn't corrected and they got flagrant with their disrespect to the point that they spoke in front of reporters (who are never, ever your friend first). Opinions are fine, expressing them is different in the military. There's a way to do it most of the time without being insubordinate or detrimental to the chain-of-command.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 10):
Those of us "idiots" doing that didn't "love" doing it.

But I still wish the Idiot-in-Chief had some deeper knowledge of the era, other than doing his best to not fly for the Texas ANG. Instead he let the neo-con idiots convince him that Americans would all be welcomed as heros. Unfortunately many Americans had to pay for his idiocy with their lives.

Perhaps idiots is a strong term when referring to those who compared Vietnam to Afghanistan. How about willfully ignorant to the point that comparisons are made incorrectly. The "Vietnam' spectre was thrown up by people knee-jerking to the thought of armed conflict, and by those who wished to associate negative feelings with what the administration was doing. Is there disagreement on the idea that fighting to defeat the Taliban in Afghanistan was unnecessary? How else was Al-Queda going to be disrupted inside that nation?



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (3 years 10 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3593 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 8):
Fired or not, this is also a matter for the JAG to decide, right? I see a flag officer undermining his C-in-C in public, and if he is kept on, only serves to confirm the 'wimp' accusation.

Since a lot of the comments were made by "unnamed aides" of the general, I wonder if Rolling Stone would be willing to divulge the names of those individuals?

That's the problem with "unnamed aides", when it comes to a theater commander, he literally has dozens of aides, ranging in ranks from general to privates and specialists. And depending on who these people are, will shape what type of trouble/punishments they could face. Commissioned and enlisted soldiers have some different rules/regulations that apply to them.


Quoting Revelation (Reply 10):
And the bad judgment alone is worthy of a re-posting to some backwater and/or demotion.

You don't demote and send to an obscure unit. It effects the gaining unit's morale, and it creates no incentive for the person to excel at their new posting. Everyone loses, which is stupid and unfair to those who had nothing to do with the demotion.

No, you quietly ask them to resign. Just like Admiral Fallon, or General McKiernan. ^^ All of these vindictive revenge scenarios are childish, and mirrors the same lack of professionalism that has created this mess.


Quoting Revelation (Reply 10):
Those of us "idiots" doing that didn't "love" doing it.

Sorry, I just call them as I see them. They're idiots.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 10):
But I still wish the Idiot-in-Chief had some deeper knowledge of the era, other than doing his best to not fly for the Texas ANG. Instead he let the neo-con idiots convince him that Americans would all be welcomed as heros. Unfortunately many Americans had to pay for his idiocy with their lives.

Blah blah blah. There are literally hundreds of threads in Non-Av that said all of this, and more. Nothing you just said is new, nor relevant to the discussion.


Quoting Ken777 (Reply 11):
So we know that a lot of security clearances need to be pulled.

Huh? What breach of security procedures has occurred? lol what a weird punishment. Maybe we ought to pull their gym memberships, also?

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 7):
I just don't know what else could be done. We have surged troops , and from what I read we are killing the enemy and holding territory ; but somehow it is not winning the peace like it did in Iraq. I know its a different war totaly and not to be compared ..so we may put Gen Odierno into a lose lose situation.

Well just to make sure we're on the same page, the surge is underway, and not fully complete. Units from the 101st, 4ID and 10th Mountain are still being deployed. So it's not as though the surge has occurred, and we're all awaiting the results.

Those results will not likely begin to show until after October, when all the units are in place and conducting operations. Not to mention, the months immediately after the surge in Iraq saw an uptick in violence and carnage. As I said above, as someone who has been on the ground of both conflicts, I see a lot of similarities, and I get the same feeling that we're at a crossroad. There is definitely ways to move towards success, but it takes a very strong man at the top to push us in that direction.

I've worked under Gen Odierno, and the man was a force to reckon with. If anyone is capable of making shit happen, it's him. He's probably one of the best we've got.


User currently offlineATCtower From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 529 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (3 years 10 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3586 times:

Just seems like another liberal sissie who cant take someone talking bad about him...

I would be very surprised if he actually loses his command over these comments. Questioning the fabric of our position is exactly what someone with 4 stars on his shoulder should be doing. Otherwise, we would just ask him to be dumb, not ask questions, and shoot people someone else with stars says to...



By reading the above post you waive all rights to be offended. If you do not like what you read, forget it.
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 15, posted (3 years 10 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3554 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 13):
So it's not as though the surge has occurred, and we're all awaiting the results.



Sorry ..UH I was assuming the surge was in place for the most part . At the point of operation Khanjar and Panther claw (June 2009) the press was hailing this as the beginning of the surge . With follow on forces (the remaining 30K) arriving to hold Helmand after the Marines and Army Airborne Brigades move'd in to Helmand in the initial assault.

I agree that it has only been a year so the Surge does need more time ... but with the surge essentially in the shape building form what would Gen .Odierno do different ? You see my point ? New command would have to offer some new solutions I would think ...especially someone with the stature of the General.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 13):
There is definitely ways to move towards success, but it takes a very strong man at the top to push us in that direction.



From here it is hard for us to see UH ... but I will take your knowledgeable word for it... if you guys trust the General then he has my vote !.


Either way ... I don't think McChrytal was in any shape or form in line with that interview. No way should a theatre commander be talking about the COC in that way while active. He should be relieved of command I would say.



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlinedxing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (3 years 10 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3536 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 3):
...There you have it, the possible ground work for asking for his resignation.

Where, in the linked article, or in any of the subsequent articles that have come out short of the Rolling Stone article itself does the General actually say something insubordinate? I see his staff as making a lot of comments that would earn them a charge but where does he directly act insubordinate to someone in his chain of command? Just asking.


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8045 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (3 years 10 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3520 times:

Quoting dl021 (Reply 12):
Confidential hasn't been a security clearance in over 20 years.

And my active duty service ended 40 years ago - last January. But I do remember Confidential clearances and feel some of these duds shouldn't have anything higher.

Quoting dl021 (Reply 12):
they're among the best and brightest in the military, or really anywhere.

No they are not. They are looking like true duds to the whole bloody world. Why do you think they didn't want their names disclosed. The whole group has been disgraced.

Quoting dl021 (Reply 12):
They enjoyed the confidence of their leaders

Not any more. Not by a long bloody shot. Do you really believe that anyone on the JCS has any confidence on McCrystals competence to lead. Of SecDef? Or the President?

Actually SecDef should be taking the action tomorrow.

Quoting dl021 (Reply 12):
There's a way to do it most of the time without being insubordinate or detrimental to the chain-of-command.

If you can't handle the traditional standards of behavior for an officer then resign. Maybe you can get a job on Rush's staff.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 13):
Since a lot of the comments were made by "unnamed aides" of the general, I wonder if Rolling Stone would be willing to divulge the names of those individuals?

Or the ones that were flapping their jaws should own up. Show a bit of courage & integrity. Otherwise replace the whole bloody lot.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 13):
What breach of security procedures has occurred?

Part of security clearances (at least in "my day") was based on the level of confidence in the individual. Red flags and you didn't get a clearance. Those individuals with loose lips don't rate clearances because of their behavior.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 13):
lol what a weird punishment.

If you are an officer who wants a career in the military then an inability to get a security clearance is going to be an EFFECTIVE punishment that a lot of others in the military will clearly be able to understand.

Quoting ATCtower (Reply 14):
Just seems like another liberal sissie who cant take someone talking bad about him...

McChrystal a "sissy"? Doubt that, but there are a lot of people around the country who are "talking bad about" him.

As far as Obama goes, he has given the General another chance more than one time. Considering that SecDef is also rather pissed (and I don't consider him a "sissy") I think you're barking up the wrong tree here.


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6485 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (3 years 10 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3517 times:

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 5):
Bush did not worry about the politics his only goal was stability and freedom in Afghanistan (as he said over and over).

Not really. Everything Bush did was politically calculated as well. To be fair, going to war and staying in war has always been a political calculation.

FDR should have entered the U.S. in WWII far earlier, but politically it was not popular until 12/7/1941.
Bush, Sr. probably should have knocked out Saddam in the first Gulf War, but politically it was viewed as undesirable.
Bush should have put more troops into Afghanistan from the beginning, but politcally it was undesirable as it would have meant a higher death toll. The same scenario played out in Iraq too.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 3):
how is it that this article was ever entertained, let alone given the green light?! Especially considering almost every soldier/marine knows to never talk to Rolling Stone, Esquire, NYT, etc. How do we all know this, but the top didn't?

That's my question too. I don't understand why anyone in the upper echelon's of our military would think this was a good idea.


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8045 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (3 years 10 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3497 times:

Joe Kline (Time) has one source that is now saying McCrystal has tendered his resignation.

Obama has not acted on it, but can accept it tomorrow, refuse it or simply fire the General.


User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (3 years 10 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3497 times:

Quoting dxing (Reply 16):

I didn't read the article linked above, simply because I chose to avoid MSNBC material.

But to answer your question, I was simply showing that there is a Punitive Article of the UCMJ that prohibits commissioned officers from publicly making contemptuous comments towards higher officials, that go beyond just the President. I was not suggesting, one way or another, whether General McChrystal is guilty of that, or whether he should be punished. He's my boss. And just as President Obama is his (our) boss, I am not going to blame/convict/criticize/etc. Gen McChrystal's comments.

[Edited 2010-06-22 13:26:46]

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24326 posts, RR: 47
Reply 21, posted (3 years 10 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3497 times:

And in McChrystal defense its probably an incredibly frustrating task having to deal with an administration leadership that has total ineptness when it comes to military matters.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8711 posts, RR: 24
Reply 22, posted (3 years 10 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3494 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 18):
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 3):
how is it that this article was ever entertained, let alone given the green light?! Especially considering almost every soldier/marine knows to never talk to Rolling Stone, Esquire, NYT, etc. How do we all know this, but the top didn't?

That's my question too. I don't understand why anyone in the upper echelon's of our military would think this was a good idea.

That's a good question. Did McChrystal decide to accept the reporters, or was he told to host them by someone higher up? Personally I feel that journalists have as much business interviewing officers in the field is a bad idea in any and every case. There is simply no need for it, nothing good can come of it, and it is just an opportunity for someone to say something stupid or dangerous.

And yes, McChrystal showed appalling judgment. Is it worth getting fired? I don't think so. But it's close.

[Edited 2010-06-22 13:29:33]


Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinegatorfan From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 331 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (3 years 10 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3489 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
The military are to follow orders of the political leadership, and never challange them.

I'm a bit confused. Why aren't John Kerry, the Clintons and moveon.org supporting Gen. McChrystal? Isn't speaking "truth to power" EXACTLY what they advocated Gen. Petraeus do when they called him General Betray US or voted against condemning the ad?


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4158 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (3 years 10 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3468 times:

CNN is reporting that McChrystal is tendering his resignation.

http://www.cnn.com/

Not sure what the fallout will be, but basically a lesson to be learned is that in the Miltary watch what you say about those higher in the COC than you when speaking to anyone not in COC



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
25 Ken777 : Or the incredibility frustrating task in having an amateurish staff totally lacking in judgement? The guy is not a platoon leader. He's a senior mili
26 dxing : Understood. I still have yet to see the actual article but in the pieces released, where has he personally insulted the President or anyone else in h
27 comorin : I wonder if the General will become the toast of the Tea Party crowd, much like Ollie North had his fans. A book deal, speaking engagements could be c
28 Ken777 : If he resigns or is fired that is a pretty good option for him. Too late for the November election. While I believe the General has certainly positio
29 merlot : McChrystal should look at history - at MacArthur as others have mentioned, and at Vietnam. Look what happened when America lost the Vietnam War: Nothi
30 Ken777 : The country has a long list of problems. Most other countries do also. The issue in Afghanistan today is the potential trillion dollars in natural re
31 AGM100 : A civilian "coup d'état" on the military ...... mmmm interesting train of thought. Not my idea ...heard it described that way today. Interesting ....
32 ltbewr : This is a very serious situation which is why I started this thread. I also wanted to hear the comments of those here with current and past military e
33 comorin : This is a Leadership issue, not necessarily a Military issue... It's a really bad idea for a boss to keep someone on that has no respect for you. The
34 Ken777 : When I was in the service the senior officers on my ship were an exceptional example of leadership. Especially the Commanding Officers. I would have
35 stasisLAX : The president needs a senior staff house cleaning starting but not ending with his chief of staff. The campaign people who get you to the White House
36 Post contains images fxramper : Looks like he already tendered his resignation. Obama Administration might try and spin it as being the gracious boss and not accept McChrystal quitti
37 Dreadnought : That would be the smart thing to do.
38 Post contains images fxramper : Resign or the administration spin it as 'interview taken out of context' and we accept your apology? Maybe McChrystal wants to retire and just sit on
39 fr8mech : I think the bottom-line is this: If a senior officer publically challenges policy or authority; or publically insults (whether in an overt or subtle f
40 STT757 : I think Odierno should be at the top of the list, however would it be too much for the General to handle. The General is tough (he's from New Jersey)
41 STT757 : The meeting is over, it took about 30 minutes. That brief a meeting possibly indicates he submitted his resignation, and the President accepted.
42 Post contains links fxramper : NBC thinks not. Guess we'll wait for official word. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37866754/ns/us_news-military/
43 AGM100 : You what would be nice ... if the President sided with the General . Maybe come out and say ..hey ya the General made some points about my staff and w
44 Ken777 : Probably not because the General and his staff cannot be trusted. They forgot how to be an officer who has been given major authorities. It's time fo
45 mt99 : Its like those people who post disparaging remarks about their employers on face book. They get canned.
46 SKYSERVICE_330 : It isn't his job to be 'nice' in this situation. The General, and his staff, were out of line. Had the concerns not been aired in public through the
47 Dreadnought : I know that it's no excuse for their behavior, but what of the staff's comments themselves? I find it disturbing that even among officers that may hav
48 MadameConcorde : General Stanley McChrystal would be wise to remember that this war is not about bringing democracy to Afghanistan and allowing little Afghan girls to
49 Dreadnought : Agreed, but if we end up supporting a dictator who promises to keep the Taliban under control, we will again be criticized for that as well. This has
50 Post contains links MadameConcorde : Hats off to McChrystal US General delivers heavy blow By Jane Burgermeister General Stanley McChrystal, the top US and NATO comamnder in Afghanistan,
51 UAL747 : Looks like he's been relieved of his command as the head of the US war in Afghanistan. Likely replacement, Patraeus. UAL[Edited 2010-06-23 10:26:40]
52 Dreadnought : Fox has confirmed - McChrystal is out, Petreus is in. McChrystal has been terminated with extreme prejudice. He was not allowed to join the strategy
53 NIKV69 : Can't wait for the book! McChrystal will have such a tale to tell and it will be an eye opener.
54 mbmbos : Some pundits might attempt to spin it this way but it won't work. Obama is McChrystal's Commander in Chief and he committed an act of gross disloyalt
55 EA772LR : I can only imagine not just McChrystal's frustration, but many other men and women in our armed forces. Perhaps both, but certainly more of the forme
56 Post contains images fxramper : This makes little sense. More fodder for the voter to consider before November. Going Rogue: The Sequel.
57 mt99 : Or a weak President that allows himself to be walked all over. There was no winning play with you was it? People get fired all the time. People at Mc
58 mbmbos : I'm just curious; did you mean "buffoon" or "baboon"? Because this appears to be a bit of a hybrid word. A Freudian slip, perhaps?
59 Dreadnought : I might have accepted that except for the way it was done. Even after McChrystal gave in his resignation, he was booted. It's like the difference bet
60 mbmbos : I'm betting that most people, including conservatives (like Bill Kristol), will regard this as an employee who willfully and publicly trashes his bos
61 Dreadnought : This wasn't some sergeant. He was the HNIC of Afghanistan - our most difficult foreign policy arena. You don't sack the guy with no orderly transitio
62 Post contains images fxramper : I read a bio on McChrystal and it's his favorite drink. I'm sure everything in the Rolling Stone (one step above tabloid trash) article was exactly w
63 PHLBOS : I believe he meant buffoon and just spelled it wrong.
64 GDB : Just to chime in and reflect that this sort of thing affects ALL the troops out there, we have gone past 300 KIA's in Afghanistan this week, it will
65 Post contains links fxramper : How 'Rolling Stone' Got Into McChrystal's Inner Circle
66 Post contains images EA772LR : Perhaps I was actually thinking of the word baffled (when I wrote "buffoon-in-chief" because I'm baffled by this whole mess. I like Miller Chill bett
67 ronglimeng : Thanks for posting that link. For me, that has been the most interesting thing about this. How did a journalist insinuate himself into the General's
68 Ken777 : General Petreus has been involved because he is above Chrystal in the chain of command. Petreus is more than knowledgable, which is why he was select
69 Post contains images EA772LR : The thing about this that baffles me most, is with all the $hit going on right now in the U.S. with new home purchases down 30% , the oil spill in the
70 UH60FtRucker : Well at least we are getting the Army's best general. It also keeps alive the good chance that Gen. Patraeus could be the next Chairman of the Joint
71 AGM100 : When generals criticized booosh they were objective heroes .... now they are in need of discipline for standing up to the CIC. That said ... I agree
72 Post contains images Longhornmaniac : Give me a bloody break. You want to talk about unbelievable. Cheers, Cameron
73 fr8mech : To be fair, I believe the only serving general to criticize Bush was Fallon, and he was canned. The others were retired, weren't they? You're right,
74 Tugger : You know, yours is the only voice in these postings so far that I respect. You've been balanced and respectful and aware of the chain of command with
75 AGM100 : Yes you are right ...
76 Ken777 : President Obama took more than a moment to speak of the appreciation the country owes McChrystal for his 34 years of service. He made it clear at the
77 UH60FtRucker : Uhh... I wasn't aware President Obama was participating in this discussion? I was talking specifically about the comments made in this thread. I thou
78 N1120A : Looks like you got your man. Absolutely. Less-Than-Honorably as well. That isn't why we were there buddy. What in the world? This is the military. Yo
79 Post contains images Ken777 : He isn't. I just thought it was a good idea to point out that the President took time and care to recognize McChrystal's 34 years of service and his
80 D L X : Indeed. This thread is otherwise quite shameful. Partisan hacks mostly. I'm particularly shocked by the conservative posters here who accept insubord
81 ltbewr : It is amazing that within 36 hours of the public finding out of the comments of Gen. McChrystal in Rolling Stone Magazine (although it's possible the
82 TheCommodore : What a wally. Of course he should be fired, if not for the comments he made to Rolling Stone magazine, then for just being dumb ! Who in hell would co
83 MadameConcorde : I wonder if he did this with the intention of getting fired. If he just quit, he'd lose all respect from everyone. If he stayed, he'd fail the missio
84 STT757 : I disagree, his background is better suited as a field officer instead of a theater commander. He's a soldier, I think some "locker room talk" came o
85 STT757 : Just to add.. General Petraeus didn't have to take the Afghanistan job, he was asked and accepted. We are lucky to have General Petraeus.
86 Post contains images fxramper : McChrystal didn't retire; where will his next assignment be?
87 AGM100 : Of course he is ... but what happens when he fails to rangel in the Taleeeeban.... our #1 General is now in position to be bloodied. The Taleeban can
88 Venus6971 : Gen Patreus will be better suited to handle the elitist snobs over at the State dept and other BHO appointees who are all in CYA mode. That Rolling St
89 Aaron747 : How many people have jobs that put lives on the line to the extent military brass do? They have important jobs to do and protocol to follow - if repo
90 seb146 : I keep seeing comments about the United States leaving Afghanistan and a set date for said exit. I thought it was a flexible time but nothing is set i
91 Post contains images Boeing1970 : Always a brilliant strategy. Might as well....
92 casinterest : Being a Rolling Stones reporter.... I don't think this really bothers him. However the issue is not really on him, but rather on the military and the
93 Boeing1970 : Someone had to say something at some point. Good on McChrystal and his troops for speaking their minds. Yeah, because everyone likes a politician in
94 UH60FtRucker : Oddly enough, 90+ posts and you're the only one who apparently thinks military discipline and regulations, are not worth following. That's absolutely
95 AGM100 : SEB you are right ...it is a flexible time scale I believe. And I really don't disagree with the Presidents idea of spurring the Afghan government to
96 Beta : As an ave. Joe, I'd like to thank Gen.McChrystal for his long and outstanding service to this country. 99.9% of the people will never know what you ha
97 prebennorholm : Poor judgement - fired. Does anybody believe that Gen McChrystal didn't know what he was doing? Does anybody believe that he didn't already know as a
98 Boeing1970 : I didn't say that. I said good on them for speaking their minds. Shows passion for the job...or frustration. So it happened in an unfortunate forum.
99 MD-90 : Is Rolling Stone magazine less willing to whitewash comments made by officials in high places and their staffs than other pro-government media outlet
100 seb146 : The "media" is not doing it. They are more interested in "taking down" the president. The "media" is more interested in dividing the country in the n
101 Dreadnought : After seeing the media fawning over the decision to put Patraeus in charge of Afghanistan, calling it "brilliant", "inspired" and so forth, I note tha
102 seb146 : The right gets all up in arms when anyone dares compare Bush to Obama, yet the right goes back in time and dreges up something certain Dems believed
103 Post contains images EA772LR : It's going to be even harder to clean up this 4 year MESS who took office Jan 20, 2009. Well I'll be darned, we agree on something seb146. Are you fe
104 N1120A : Um, who? The President is a mess? You apparently forget the 8 years prior. Taliban.
105 Revelation : So that's the current fear being thrown around to justify the war? I guess you've never been put into the role of working with someone that everyone
106 Post contains links Baroque : And the circumstances??? http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politi...-match-the-myth-20100625-z9m5.html McChrystal couldn't match the myth PAUL MCGEOUGH Ju
107 Ltbewr : I think one of the deeper issues over Afganistan is that we, and other countries, want a strong central government, even a dictatorship based of a tin
108 Dreadnought : We can't even control our own border with Mexico, and you want to "cut off the region from the rest of the world"? How, pray tell, do you want us to
109 UH60FtRucker : It's just preposterous to say that this is the result of Gen McChrystal knowingly saying this to Rolling Stone, in order to get fired. First, a lot o
110 Post contains images CPH-R : He has certainly become the immediate target of the Birthers. It's been hilarious to see the 'open letters' they have been posting, telling him to ar
111 Post contains links Baroque : Here is what David Kilcullen has to say. http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2010/s2939192.htm There was a TV version of this the other night, but this h
112 AGM100 : We like to pronounce it Like the President does ... Tahleebaaan. UH ? The 4 star theatre commander "fucked " up with a known anti military anti missi
113 ME AVN FAN : - I don't want to be nitpicking, but Mr Maliki is not the President but the Prime Minister. President is Mr Talabani reality is that "Taliban" is jus
114 UH60FtRucker : I think the difference between me and you, is that I have at least offered evidence as to why the suggestion this was "intentional career suicide" is
115 AGM100 : I don't think he did career suicide! .... I just think people knew the story was out their and did not protect the General and ultimately the US Army
116 Baroque : Suggest you listen to the original broadcast and check if Kilcullen mis-spoke or if the computer had a minor short while translating - mind you would
117 MD11Engineer : I recently saw a map outlining the newly found mineral deposits in Afghanistan. Most of the riches are in the North, especially close to the Usbhek bo
118 Post contains links MadameConcorde : You bet! Afghanistan is full of underground natural resources ! Why do you think the US (and before them the Russians) are there for installing all t
119 Post contains links Baroque : Well yes, most mineral resources do occur underground. Afghanistan’s Energy Future and Its Potential Implications http://www.eurasianet.org/departme
120 UH60FtRucker : Give me a break. Stop making excuses, and deflecting the issue. This is not the fault of the administration, the state department, Rolling Stone, or
121 Baroque : The detail by Kilcullen on that comes to a similar conclusion - and he knows those staff. It can be assumed that Petraeus was not amused either.
122 MadameConcorde : Well, then prove me otherwise - with concrete evidence.
123 Post contains images UH60FtRucker : As your earlier post clearly showed, the staff under General Patraeus would have never thought to say those things to each other, let alone in the pr
124 MadameConcorde : Sorry but I don't take it. It's much too much of an easy one to say something like this and so hypocritical on top of it..From your profile you are p
125 MD11Engineer : In fact, from what I´ve read, the ones currently profiting from the Afghani resources are the Chinese, who started investing in the country. Jan
126 N1120A : President Obama pronounces it better than Bush did, but still doesn't quite get it right. It will be interesting to see, given the classic common law
127 Post contains images UH60FtRucker : Yup, I'm a pawn for the man. Still doesn't change the fact that you can't even offer a shred of evidence for your wild claim. You've obliterated your
128 DeltaMD90 : Wouldn't be the first baseless anti-American comment thrown out by this user...
129 Baroque : Not positive evidence. The USGS "evidence" for the claim rather disproves it more than proves it. The problem with thick units like the Siwaliks on t
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