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Turkey Threatens Diplomatic Break With Israel  
User currently offlineoa260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27003 posts, RR: 57
Posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2704 times:

In another escalation to the aid flotilla issue Turkey seeks an appology. I wonder if it will be forthcoming.

Turkey threatens diplomatic break with Israel over raid

Turkey has warned that all diplomatic ties with Israel will be cut unless it apologises for a raid on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla in May.

The Turkish foreign minister said such a break could only be averted if Israel accepted an international inquiry into the incident.

The Israeli government said it has nothing to apologise for.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10505386.stm

89 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineslz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2696 times:

Looks like Turkey is not going to let go of this violation of its territory (as the fleet sailed under Turkish flag) in international waters, with the killing of 9 people who fought off the illegal invasion. What Israel did is considered piracy under international law and Israel should indeed appologize for its behaviour rather than pretend it did nothing wrong. They did, even if they (think they) had good reasons for it, so Israel should come of it's high horse and appologize, rather than pretend it did nothing wrong and thus allign itself with rough states like Iran or North Korea which think international rules aren't applicable to them either.

User currently offlineiakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3313 posts, RR: 34
Reply 2, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2667 times:

Turkish political vision has changed. Emphasis is now on the ME and their Islamic neighbours.
What follows are simply planned stages in that context.


Quoting oa260 (Thread starter):
In another escalation to the aid flotilla issue Turkey seeks an appology. I wonder if it will be forthcoming.
Turkey threatens diplomatic break with Israel over raid
Turkey has warned that all diplomatic ties with Israel will be cut unless it apologises for a raid on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla in May.
The Turkish foreign minister said such a break could only be averted if Israel accepted an international inquiry into the incident.
The Israeli government said it has nothing to apologise for.

Turkey (everybody in fact) knew there would be a clash, Israel will not apologize, diplomatic ties will be cut, etc...
Some US secretary or undersecretary will blame the EU
Expect official visits of Erdogan to ME states and vice versa, new contracts, partnerships, etc...


User currently offlineEL-AL From Israel, joined Oct 2001, 1312 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2622 times:

Turkish prime minister is looking for reason to cut international relations with Israel for a while, first it was the war in Gaza, then the diplomatic incident with the Turkish ambassador, now the flotilla...

Even if Israel do apologize (as I knew my Prime Minister, eventually he will) Turkey will have more demands, otherwise they will cut relations with Israel, and all over Again. My guess that few weeks prior to the Turkish elections Erdugan will announce on the breaking of international relations between Turkey and Israel.



"In our country, those who do not believe in miracles are irrational" - David Ben Gurion.
User currently offlineus330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3871 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2592 times:

Quoting oa260 (Thread starter):
Turkey threatens diplomatic break with Israel over raid

Turkey has warned that all diplomatic ties with Israel will be cut unless it apologises for a raid on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla in May.

The Turkish government has backtracked somewhat from that statement, according to CNN.
From the linked article:

"The Foreign Ministry later claimed the minister had been misquoted, saying he actually said that without an apology or inquiry, "it will not be possible for our relationship to improve."

A Turkish Foreign Ministry official told CNN that Davutoglu's comments were " a strong warning to Israel," yet did not exactly mean ending relations"


http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/...urkey.no.apology/index.html?hpt=T1


User currently offlineRaffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2590 times:

Perhaps they weren't looking for a reason but were faced with all of these reasons to break international ties.

What Israel did to the boat was illegal. We are talking about international waters, and the fact that the Israelis
refuse an independent inquiry make a lot of people wonder what they have to hide.

They really are a law upon themselves. And with so much unconditional support from America, there is rarely
any justice for the people who are hurt by their actions. Look at the destruction of large parts of Beirut in 2006
and the breaking up of Palestinian land. Hardly fair. Good for Turkey for taking a stand.



Happy -go- lucky kinda guy!
User currently offlinesevernaya From Russia, joined Jan 2009, 1413 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2588 times:

That would be stupid of Turkey, as that would basically close the door for EU-membership.


Всяк глядит, да не всяк видит.
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2578 times:

Quoting iakobos (Reply 2):
Some US secretary or undersecretary will blame the EU

Alas you are probably right. Makes you wonder if the US understands anything at all, or just says stupid things because it thinks it can.

Maybe they can advance on this headline even, given a bit of thought.

GOP chairman: Afghan 'war of Obama's choosing'

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100702/...us_republican_chairman_afghanistan

Quoting Raffik (Reply 5):
Good for Turkey for taking a stand.

   Asking for an apology is also a neat way to ensure the spat will continue and BN will never ever apologise.


User currently offlineRaffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2578 times:

Since when does breaking diplomatic ties with Israel close doors to EU membership? It's worth too much to the Union for them to stop Turkey joining


Happy -go- lucky kinda guy!
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3104 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2548 times:

Quoting severnaya (Reply 6):
That would be stupid of Turkey, as that would basically close the door for EU-membership.

When did Israel become a member of the EU? Even the EU condemns the attack on the flotilla. At any rate, it ensures Turkey's position as a Middle East regional power, making sure international law is obeyed.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
Quoting Raffik (Reply 5):
Good for Turkey for taking a stand.

Asking for an apology is also a neat way to ensure the spat will continue and BN will never ever apologise.

I was just a kid when BN was first elected prime minister of Israel, but from what I've seen, his party just doesn't want to make concessions of any kind. To apologize would be seen as a defeat and a grave for his political career, and yet to not apologize would mean lose a very valuable ally in a region where allies and stability is needed. He knows what to do. Whether he's choosing his career over his country and Israelis are willing to go along with it is another matter.



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlinesevernaya From Russia, joined Jan 2009, 1413 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2532 times:

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 9):
When did Israel become a member of the EU? Even the EU condemns the attack on the flotilla.

I did not say Israel is a member of the EU. Furthermore not all EU member states are condemning the so called "attack" on the flotilla.

I just think that cutting diplomatic ties with a strong partner (Israel) of the EU for this reason, is not helping their path to accession in the EU.



Всяк глядит, да не всяк видит.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25406 posts, RR: 49
Reply 11, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2522 times:

This is all for domestic theater. Mr. Erdogan's AK Party is going to be facing the voters with the main opposition party having got a new leader and some momentum.
These tough talking anti-Israel tirades play well to the masses especially in Anatolia.

Turks can certainly do as they want, but in my view at the end of the day its Turkey that will loose out by its reckless comments and actions towards Israel, while at the same time codling regimes like Iran.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinesw733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6324 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2514 times:

The Turkish-Israeli relationship is, I think, critical for the region. Israel needs some friends in the region, and losing their most important one, leaving them with only Jordan and Egypt, cannot be accepted.

Quoting severnaya (Reply 6):
That would be stupid of Turkey, as that would basically close the door for EU-membership.

The EU would love another reason to keep Turkey out of their group


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2443 times:

Quoting severnaya (Reply 10):
I just think that cutting diplomatic ties with a strong partner (Israel)

Are you serious, strong how? to defend Turkey against whom? shame on Turkey is they have to kiss a** of someone who has no respect for them.


User currently offlineiakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3313 posts, RR: 34
Reply 14, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2390 times:

Quoting severnaya (Reply 6):
That would be stupid of Turkey, as that would basically close the door for EU-membership.

Turkey understood a long time ago that the door is closed until "sometime a long time" in the future.
Besides a probable local agenda, they can play their foreign politics as they wish.


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3477 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2374 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
Turks can certainly do as they want, but in my view at the end of the day its Turkey that will loose out by its reckless comments and actions towards Israel,

You are right in the first half but very wrong in the second. Turkey is becoming a very strong player in the area. a very strong military, a fast growing economy and manufacturer, a tourism magnet among others, Israel will loose a lot if they loose Turkey, not the other way around.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2360 times:

I like the way some people are making Turkey seem at fault and a pariah state, poor loner Turkey without Israel you're nothing, yeah right.

User currently offlineiakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3313 posts, RR: 34
Reply 17, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2279 times:

Quoting sw733 (Reply 12):
The EU would love another reason to keep Turkey out of their group

Absolutely not, the basket of good reasons is full.
I cannot avoid thinking that Turkey has precisely decided to open a new chapter in their modern history, if the country's dynamism cannot expand into Europe, they will make it flow East and South, they simply cannot remain idle at this juncture.
Breaking (on the surface at least) with Israel is a pre-condition.

The next 5-6 years will be interesting.


User currently offlineEL-AL From Israel, joined Oct 2001, 1312 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2264 times:

Quoting iakobos (Reply 17):
The next 5-6 years will be interesting.



The up coming elections in Turkey (due to the end of this year I think) will tell us more about where Turkey is heading, or at least what the Turks think about their current leadership (which is not bad at all by the way, Turkey's economy has made substantial progress since 2002, then the current party took leadership from Bulent Ecevit).



"In our country, those who do not believe in miracles are irrational" - David Ben Gurion.
User currently offlineoa260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27003 posts, RR: 57
Reply 19, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2263 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 15):
You are right in the first half but very wrong in the second. Turkey is becoming a very strong player in the area. a very strong military, a fast growing economy and manufacturer, a tourism magnet among others, Israel will loose a lot if they loose Turkey, not the other way around.

Very true , Israel needs Turkey not the other way around.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 20, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2231 times:

Quoting dl021 (Reply 21):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
Alas you are probably right. Makes you wonder if the US understands anything at all, or just says stupid things because it thinks it can.

The US in general or are you assigning a single thought to the entire nation? Just asking, because it seems a little less than exact to say what you did. Does the US understand anything at all? Well, since the US has propped up a significant part of the world over the last 100 years I'd say yes, and since much of the world outside of the US is continuously involved in silliness ranging from petty to horrifyingly bad I'd feel it's ok to ask the opposite.

You really need to put my response in context. This was:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
Quoting iakobos (Reply 2):
Some US secretary or undersecretary will blame the EU

Alas you are probably right. Makes you wonder if the US understands anything at all, or just says stupid things because it thinks it can.

I was clearly referring to the US Sec (presumably of State) who by default becomes the rep of the US. I do think you protest a bit too much in suggesting that the US has propped up a significant part of the world over the last 100 years. For the first 30 of that it was difficult to get the US engaged. There was a period of about 20 years when propping was a major activity. Since then it has spent a considerable amount of time being less than happy with the product of the European propping activity.

As to silliness, the problem seen from outside the US is that while the rest of the world shows a generally declining level of silliness, the US shows perhaps and increasing tendency to "silliness". Not least when it attributes the actions of the Turkish government to the EU. And you could hardly say that the US has made a splendid contribution to easing ME tension post Carter I would have thought??? Which makes comment about Turkey less than prima facie plausible. Remember also that the US got Turkey rather annoyed in relation to the Iraq invasion and one way and another got close to having a war with Turkey in relation to the Kurdish part of Iraq..

Quoting dl021 (Reply 21):
International piracy? What do you call a fleet of ships that is headed to a group of people who are assaulting you with the intent of re-supplying them?

Sounds like a new definition of piracy coming up. I always thought there was a difference between blockade runners and pirates????? Then there are legal and illegal blockades, but I don't suppose we are going to agree there.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6664 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2229 times:

Quoting dl021 (Reply 21):
I'd say that Europe's goverments' making demands of Turkey to which they acquiesced, and modified much of their system, weakening the secular controls and checks over the government in place as a result, followed by the rejection from the EU has driven the Turks in other directions where they feel less encumbered by the desires of their western neighbors to continue down the path of democracy rather than religious rule.

Secular is good, but the controls were done by the military. That's not really democracy. And there is no formal rejection of Turkey from the EU, the process is still open. However Turkey is not making any progress on several crucial subjects, like Cyprus.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 35
Reply 22, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2210 times:

Quoting dl021 (Reply 21):
but if they had used UZIs you can actually fire them in single shots if you're well trained, and the Israeli military is very well trained.

Some highly-coordinated military geniuses MIGHT be able to do that with an 'open bolt' SMG set to automatic, dl021 - all I can say is that I'm not one of them. Give me an SMLE any day - all anyone would have needed with them was one shot, which would have gone where it was aimed............

Quoting dl021 (Reply 21):
as you can see they didn't wholesale open up on the crowd that assaulted them the instant they hit the deck of the vessel.

11 killed and 40 wounded among the people on the ship - no serious injuries among the Israeli forces? Sounds pretty one-sided to me? As far as I can tell, the operation was just badly-planned - we've all known ever since Arnhem (or maybe even the Germans in Crete in 1941  ; that airborne troops are very vulnerable as they land. My guess is that, as you say, the first lot landed just with paintball guns and pistols; but once some of the people on the ship went for them (with clubs and things, not firearms) things got out of hand and the Israelis lost their heads and mindlessly put the (fully-armed) 'heavy mob' in......

Quoting dl021 (Reply 21):
When they were being shot at by the "peace activists" with everything from .30 caliber shot from slingshots (deadly) to rifle fire, they were given permission to fire from their pistols

Can you provide any facts at ALL to support that statement? In everything I've read about it I';ve seen nothing at all about any Israeli soldier copping a 'GSW' (gunshot wound)? As against at least 50 civilians on the ship who got at least one, many of them five or more?

Quoting dl021 (Reply 21):
Get the facts straight and look at both sides of this. International piracy?

OK - if you prefer, I'll use the old-fashioned term. 'War crimes'........

[Edited 2010-07-06 09:28:24]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinedl021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 23, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2177 times:
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Quoting NAV20 (Reply 24):
Quoting dl021 (Reply 21):
but if they had used UZIs you can actually fire them in single shots if you're well trained, and the Israeli military is very well trained.

Some highly-coordinated military geniuses MIGHT be able to do that with an 'open bolt' SMG set to automatic, dl021 - all I can say is that I'm not one of them. Give me an SMLE any day - all anyone would have needed with them was one shot, which would have gone where it was aimed............

Well, ok...I don't think it takes a genius...just someone with decent trigger control. With a little practice you can get any open bolt weapon with less than a 800-900rpm rof to do that, but it's sort of a moot point. 2 to 3 round bursts are training standards. Plus, they don't issue UZI's as standard equipment anymore.

BUT....I fully agree...one round from an SMLE is WAAAAYYY more effective than a 9mm roundnose from anything.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 24):
11 killed and 40 wounded among the people on the ship - no serious injuries among the Israeli forces?

Once again....facts being important....I referred to the imbalance in reporting....several Israeli troops were badly hurt, but the reporting focuses on thie things the reporters and editors are interested in portraying to re-inforce their own preset beliefs and predispositions.

But, once again....we're arguing minutiae instead of discussing overall truths. The point is that the fleet of vessels was sent to provoke the Israelis, and due to past experience the Israelis, who aren't stupid and knew they were being provoked, felt like they had to act to prevent the possibility of materials dangerous to them being delivered to people who are actively trying to hurt them.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 23):
Secular is good, but the controls were done by the military. That's not really democracy. And there is no formal rejection of Turkey from the EU, the process is still open. However Turkey is not making any progress on several crucial subjects, like Cyprus.

I will agree that it wasn't ideal, and ran counter to democratic principles, but they kept the civilian governments from turning into religious theocracies, or from being controlled by religious oligarches as happens elsewhere, and allowed democracy to grow, as happened over the last 60 years or so.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 22):
You really need to put my response in context. This was:

I did...but the problem was how you phrased it and how many read it.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 22):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
Quoting iakobos (Reply 2):
Some US secretary or undersecretary will blame the EU

Alas you are probably right. Makes you wonder if the US understands anything at all, or just says stupid things because it thinks it can.


I was clearly referring to the US Sec (presumably of State) who by default becomes the rep of the US.

It wasn't that clear, but again....arguing minutiae instead of discussing larger points.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 22):
Remember also that the US got Turkey rather annoyed in relation to the Iraq invasion and one way and another got close to having a war with Turkey in relation to the Kurdish part of Iraq..

In this point you fail to mention that Turkey's 'near war' with us in relation to Kurdish parts of Iraq was not a conflict with us, but with the Kurds, whom we were securing. There was about zero chance of armed conflict between US and Turkish forces. Also nothing there about Turkey's concerns about our close relations with the Kurds, against whom they've been fighting for years (not to mention their human rights violations in those conflicts) nor about their desire to ensure that they dictate the terms in the water issues that are still likely to arise from the downstream nations who are worried about what Turkey is going to do with their primary sources of fresh water...... It's not just that Turkey is concerned with what we're doing...it's what we're doing that they think will undermine their goals, and whether or not they feel like they can benefit from a relationship with us.

They're not feeling the love from the west right now....and it's easier to inflame their citizens in pursuit of domestic political agendas than it is to take the high road. Cyprus, Kurdistan, water rights....all those things are real to them, EU membership (which was dangled in front of them and then taken away) turned into a demeaning slap. That plays into their decision making, and made it easier for their government (or members thereof) to spend political capital to support the Palestineans, whom they'd never allow to act out in their country....see how they treat the Kurds.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2170 times:

Quoting dl021 (Reply 23):
EU membership (which was dangled in front of them and then taken away) turned into a demeaning slap.

I call it a wakeup call for Turkey and they should be thankful.

[Edited 2010-07-06 10:30:06]

25 Aesma : I don't know if they're stupid, but what they did was pretty stupid in my book. They knew what those ships were for a long time, they were not warshi
26 ME AVN FAN : - exactly. Turkish industry has the Arab World and Central Asia and South Asia as its most important markets. Turkish companies are building airports
27 severnaya : No. For EU-membership yes. Economically most likely no. However in friendship-ties yes.
28 iakobos : Sensible ? compromise ? nothing anywhere close to these words has ever appeared on any table. If I am wrong, and my long and well documented knowledg
29 Post contains links Raffik : http://www.culturesofresistance.org/gaza-freedom-flotilla Let us just remind ourselves about what really happened on that boat
30 Post contains images lewis : I don't see why. I haven't seen any problems with relations between Greece and Israel (on a political level). Only a joint naval exercise was cancele
31 777way : Why dosent Cyprus merge with Greece and the North with Turkey.
32 einsteinboricua : Because the former part was what started the whole Cyprus dispute. Enosis, invasion, two republics, present day problems. I still fail to see why Tur
33 NAV20 : Cheers, dl021, guess we're 'on terms' and closer to agreement. With respect, you're mainly talking about the political angles and I'm rather talking
34 casinterest : Does anyone else see the irony the thread title? Turkey is threatening a Diplomatic Break? In my opinion they broke it by allowing the Flotilla to sai
35 Post contains images oa260 : They did , it was turned down during negotiations. A yes vote would have meant asking the Greeks to accept being ethnically cleansed from their homes
36 SOBHI51 : They allowed ships full of desperately needed aid to the besieged people of Gaza, they did not send frigates or battleship. Unless such aid is consid
37 casinterest : It was against the blockade, and they knew it was. They failed to allow diplomacy and allowed the action to take place against the blockade. My argum
38 777way : Was that for me? if so I know about Cyprus history, just wondering why cant they do that now as they are divided in any case.
39 Post contains images einsteinboricua : That was meant for me. But since oa260 knows better, perhaps he should enlighten us about what happened.
40 Post contains images oa260 : Its been done to death on so many threads. I prefer to take my facts from people on the ground from both sides and having visited the whole Island a
41 SOBHI51 : Oh thanks for reminding me of the blockade, an illegal one by all laws and humanity. And you forgot to mention that the attack was in international w
42 Post contains links ME AVN FAN : - as Israel is NOT a member of the EU, it should NOT have anything to do with EU membership, as Turkey - fully recognizes Israel - has diplomatic rel
43 oa260 : Because it didnt protect or safeguard the few Greek Cypriots who havnt already been pushed out of the North thats why. No rights to return to their h
44 casinterest : Nice sidestep. At this rate we will be back to blaming Abraham and the three tribes. But blockades are not illegal. I just find it funny that Turkey
45 Post contains links oa260 : Turkish key constitutional reforms annulled by court Turkey's Constitutional Court has annulled key parts of a package of government-backed constituti
46 SOBHI51 : Again the ships were carrying essential aid to hundred of thousands of people under a inhuman blockade, tell me what is so dangerous about A4 paper a
47 iakobos : Abracadabra.........waiting to see what will come out of the hat now.
48 casinterest : Turkey chose to allow the run of the blockade to happen. If Israel were so inclined, they could have declared it an act of war and attacked Turkey. I
49 MD11Engineer : To me it looks as if Erdogan opposes the secular ideals of the Kemalist revolution of the 1920s and wants to stear Turkey more towards a leading role
50 SOBHI51 : Of course because they act like bullies, You know why they did not do that, because Turkey has a powerful army and Israel would have her ass kicked.
51 Post contains links oa260 : Although they liked to call it a ''transfer of citizens'' but it was certainly a turning point in history and the forced expulsion and ethnic cleansi
52 casinterest : They were protecting their country. The folks in the flotilla were looking to spark a confrontation. You say that the Israeli's are bullies only to c
53 iakobos : - a compromise is aimed at the settlement of a dispute by concessions on both sides, also, something approximately midway between two extremes, a sor
54 777way : Bullies need to beconfronted, aid ships and peaceniks should be sent on a regular basis to Gaza in defience of the blockade.
55 Post contains links and images MD11Engineer : Well, this was what started it: In the treaty of Sevres practically all of European Turkey and the area around Izmir (Smyrna) would have fallen to Gr
56 racko : Why does everybody consider the flotilla to be turkish? The ships were from 2x Greece 2x United States 1x Comoros 1x Kiribati 1x Turkey , the ships me
57 aerorobnz : I wouldn't threaten. I'd just cut any diplomatic ties without giving them the opportunity to apologize first.
58 SOBHI51 : Just to cover the criminal acts commited by Israeli special forces. What better reason you need than delivering humanitarian aid to the people of Gaz
59 casinterest : They had the option to deliver it to Israel or Egypt. They chose confrontation. The intentions were confrontation all the way. Humanitarian aid wasn'
60 NAV20 : A good point, racko. One can add to it that neither Turkey nor any other country has powers to stop ships (particularly ships belonging to other nati
61 SOBHI51 : Really? So why were they carrying hundred of tons of humanitarian aid on board?
62 lewis : It has been beaten to death, he still does not get how one-sided (towards the island's minority) the so called "compromise" proposal was. I doubt he
63 casinterest : To make it appear like they wanted to get the aid in. It was a secondary endeavor to their true cause of confrontation and escalation
64 SOBHI51 : I think Racko already answered that if you think that all those respected people did have other intentions than to provide some very needed aid to mo
65 casinterest : Who cares? My point, and you have to accept it, is that Turkey failed to act diplomatically in this effort and already forced the break that exists a
66 MD11Engineer : Correction: HAMAS doesn´t control Palaestine, only the Gazah strip. The rest of the Palaestinian territories is controlled by their mortal enemies,
67 casinterest : Oops, you are correct. Om this point you are correct. The Zionist entities within Israel are a big problem. There needs to be some moderation from Is
68 NAV20 : People like me, I guess, casinterest. I was too young actually to be really frightened by German WW2 bombing. Though I later found it to be quite a n
69 casinterest : [quote=NAV20,reply=68]People like me, I guess, casinterest.[/quote Nice long arguement, but not to my point. My point is that humanitarian aid was not
70 SOBHI51 : Sorry? No i do not have to, we are discussing two point of views, so i do not have to accept nothing. So Gaza is a state of 1,500,000 terrorists? Get
71 NAV20 : Guess that's where we differ, casinterest. As far as I'm concerned:- 1. The Zionist claim to Jewish 'exclusive possession' of the 'Holy Land' is a da
72 casinterest : So all of Israel is Bullies? No... Gaza elected hamas, an organization that has used terrorism to get it's way. Remember diplomacy? I care for all in
73 MD11Engineer : Well the election was more a protest vote against the blatant corruption of Arafat´s FATAH at the time. Only for HAMAS it was an election following
74 Raffik : Please remember that the Palestinian voted for Hamas. It was a fair and legal process . Hamas may be a terrorist government in your eyes but if a gove
75 MD11Engineer : There is also another thing history can teach you, if you look at Germany: After WW1 and WW2 many ethnic Germans were kicked out from regions, in whi
76 SOBHI51 : Diplomacy? Tell that to a child who can not find a toy to play with, electricity to keep him warm in the winter, who can not find a pencil or paper t
77 ME AVN FAN : - the demands of the Greek Cypriots would mean that in Kyrenia/Girne, the Turkish businessmen had to give up all their shops, restaurants and hotels
78 casinterest : explain that to anyone walking on a steet in Israel when a suicide bomber goes off. Blah blah blah , cry me a river. There are sufferings. and then t
79 SOBHI51 : Those folks are walking on occupied lands, living in houses taken from there true owners by force, remember that a big part of Israel is Palestinian
80 Aesma : In Lebanon Palestinians are not allowed to do a lot of things, and they certainly cannot get citizenship.
81 TheCommodore : What ? I think you meant to say, Israel will lose out with its reckless actions towards Turkey. Surely
82 lewis : Forgot to mention though that Cyprus would cease to be independent and would need consent from Turkey for many things that other nations have complet
83 oa260 : There are plenty of living refugees ,its not that long ago that they are all dead. They maybe elderly but not all dead. When does stealing someones l
84 offloaded : Channel 4 (UK) 's "Holiday Homes From Hell" last night featured a British couple forced to abandon their home in the TRNC because a Greek Cypriot had
85 iakobos : [quote=ME AVN FAN,reply=77]I did read the full proposal through. And it was NOT one-sided[/quote Now, if you are prepared and have the time for it (I
86 oa260 : For those that bought the land knowing the political situation and knew it was stolen land I have no sympathy. I hope they loose everything just like
87 ME AVN FAN : admittedly not a big sacrifice from the TRNC side, but Varosha, after the costly reconstruction phase would be BIG BUSINESS for Greek Cyprus And here
88 Raffik : A lot of the Palestinians I have spoken to do not want citizenship. They do not consider Lebanon to be their home and many of the older generation of
89 ME AVN FAN : While this is absolutely true, Mr Hariri and his chaps are trying to get as many Palestinians as possible to become Lebanese citizens, as most of the
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