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Why Are So Many On The Political Left Anti-Israel?  
User currently offlinezrs70 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 3108 posts, RR: 9
Posted (4 years 2 weeks ago) and read 4971 times:

I've been scratching my head over this one for a while. So many people on the left have a deep anger against Israel.

The irony, however, is that Israel is the only country in the region that supports left thinking.

I can't imagine anyone who is GLBT wanting to live in another country in the region.

I can't imagine a female who cares about equality wanting to live in another country in the region.

I can't imagine that Jews who have lived in other countries in the region enjoyed the same rights there as non-Jews who currently live in Israel.

So why is it that the left often have a love-affair with the other countries?


14 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2013
147 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (4 years 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4961 times:

I'm not anti-Israel by any means, and I see that they are quite the western nation, therefore, they should be held at as much scrutiny as any other westernized nation. I would not want to live in Iran, or Gaza, however...Israel has been meddling in human rights abuses for a while, and no matter what political agenda you have, or what side you are on, that is wrong. I'd feel the same way to my own country. Regardless of if someone wants to kill me because I'm gay, doesn't mean I won't want to protect their life as much as the next persons.

I don't think Liberals feel negatively towards Israel, they just hold it to a higher standard, especially since Irsrael has the funding (our funding) to be surgical and precise about what they do. I'm critical of the other side as well.

I also love the Iranian people even though I do not support their ideas. I wish nothing but peace, prosperity, and the hope that they soon find themselves in the same situation and lifestyle as me, and much happiness.

You can't cure everyone's ignorance, but you can always give aid to any ignorant fool. You can't stop an intelligent and wealthy fool from making bad decisions, but you can let them know when they have.

Also, I think the right paints liberals in a bad light in this situation. That Israel is our only ally in the region, which is completely and utterly false. I know of plenty of Arab countries who are our allies in the region, but who Israel is an enemy.

And lets not forget the Biblical implications involved in maintaining a relationship with Israel, mostly by the right. The religious right, which forms the base of the Republican party, believes that if Israel is not protected and is taken, then God will also take their nations. (I'm not sure how they come up with that, but it's written somewhere in the Bible).

So to the right, Israel is sort of a jewel on a pedlestool, but to the average liberal, it's just another country who receives billions and billions of US funding who keeps picking fights with nasty neighbors.

I agree with their right to exist, I do not agree with agressive expansion and settlements into Gaza.

But the land has been fought over since time immemorial, thus it will probably continue.


User currently offlinefuturepilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4950 times:

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):
I've been scratching my head over this one for a while. So many people on the left have a deep anger against Israel.

It's not really anger as it is just disagreeing with their policies against the Palestinians. Many of us on left realize that Israel has been treating the Palestinians in the Gaza strip, really bad for a while now. So even though they are the country in the region that promotes "left" thinking, they also go against it by denying Palestinians any form of human rights

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 1):
I don't think Liberals feel negatively towards Israel, they just hold it to a higher standard, especially since Irsrael has the funding (our funding) to be surgical and precise about what they do. I'm critical of the other side as well.

Exactly. As i've said in the past, I hold them to a higher expectation. I don't want to get up one morning and see that the Israeli air force bombed the shit out of an apartment building in the Gaza strip because a Palestinian threw a bottle at an Israeli Army convoy. To me that's excessive force, and this is the problem that most people have with Israel, they seem to go above and beyond the response that's actually needed.

Another thing we "libs" hate is that our gov't supports any action taken by Israel and it's military, no matter how bold those actions are. If we hold Israel to a higher standard, then when they do something wrong, then we should point that out as well. We hold cops to a higher standard, if a cop doesn't do his job right, his captain will let him know about it. We should do the same with Israel.



"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15713 posts, RR: 26
Reply 3, posted (4 years 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4949 times:

Perhaps a better question would be why so many people in the US do support Israel unconditionally. It seems to run along two related paths: religion and general dislike of Muslims. Many of the right wing religious nut jobs in the US count themselves among the supporters of Israel, and it is worth noting that most of the loudest pro-Israeli voices in the US are evangelical Christians and not Jews. Despite this, not supporting Israel unconditionally seems to equal anti-Semitism.

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):
The irony, however, is that Israel is the only country in the region that supports left thinking.

I can't imagine anyone who is GLBT wanting to live in another country in the region.

I can't imagine a female who cares about equality wanting to live in another country in the region.

I can't imagine that Jews who have lived in other countries in the region enjoyed the same rights there as non-Jews who currently live in Israel.

Is all of that supposed to justify just looking past the crap Israel pulls? Does being pro-West and liberal thinking give them license to practice aparteid? Or continuing the status quo by never showing any lasting commitment to peace? Quite frankly, it is somewhat surprising that Israel is given a pass on so much in America.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 1):
.Israel has been meddling in human rights abuses for a while, and no matter what political agenda you have, or what side you are on, that is wrong.

Exactly. If Israel is so western and progressive, why do they continue doing the things that they do?

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 1):
I agree with their right to exist, I do not agree with agressive expansion and settlements into Gaza.

That is about my stance on the issue too.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4375 posts, RR: 27
Reply 4, posted (4 years 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4932 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
Perhaps a better question would be why so many people in the US do support Israel unconditionally. It seems to run along two related paths: religion and general dislike of Muslims. Many of the right wing religious nut jobs in the US count themselves among the supporters of Israel, and it is worth noting that most of the loudest pro-Israeli voices in the US are evangelical Christians and not Jews. Despite this, not supporting Israel unconditionally seems to equal anti-Semitism.


        

Right on the money. I think a better question would be why do so many on the right think of the Israeli government as absolutely infallible.

But regardless, lots of people on either side like to believe the Arab-Israeli conflict is such a black and white issue from their perspective, when it really can't be further from the truth. Many of the American Jews I know have lots of issues with actions of the Israeli government. And I must say, with the settlement expansion, handling of the Gaza blockade, shunning of US peace talk efforts,etc, I find it difficult to believe they themselves want peace and coexistence.

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):

So why is it that the left often have a love-affair with the other countries?

I think most are more hesitant to give Israel the free pass in their actions than others. I really haven't seen much of this 'love affair' with other countries.

What's also rampant is being labeled in 'anti-Semite' if you say anything critical about an Israeli government decision. It's ridiculous. I try to treat them and analyze their actions like any other country.

I hope that DocLightning will post in this thread, because I can't think of anyone i've agreed with more on this and can articulate it much better than I.

[Edited 2010-07-09 23:04:31]


The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39673 posts, RR: 75
Reply 5, posted (4 years 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4913 times:

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):

Perhaps you should ask, why are so many on the right anti-Jewish.
Talk to any Bible-thumper about their feelings about Jews and their hatred is far worse than any criticism towards Israel from the left.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2844 posts, RR: 30
Reply 6, posted (4 years 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4905 times:

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):
So many people on the left have a deep anger against Israel.

The irony, however, is that Israel is the only country in the region that supports left thinking.

Their dubious human rights record might suggest otherwise. People on the left certainly don't like seeing one group consistently persecuting another and keeping a sizable population down politically, socially, and economically.

In many ways, you can compare modern day Israel to America during the Jim Crow Law (racially segregated) era. The Jewish majority - like the American white majority - enjoys all kinds of constitutional freedoms as well as political and economic control over virtually everything in the nation. The Arabs - like the African Americans - suffer constant hardships and have very few constitutional/legal rights compared to the majority.

Sure, in some respects Israel is highly progressive in ways those on the left would like: gay rights, equality of the sexes, environmental responsibility, etc. But their maltreatment of the Arab population and blatant disregard for international agreements and protocol does not earn them brownie points from the left.



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (4 years 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4879 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
and general dislike of Muslims

Just the ones who fly planes into buildings and decapitate people.

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 4):
What's also rampant is being labeled in 'anti-Semite' if you say anything critical about the an Israeli government decision. It's ridiculous. I try to treat them and analyze their actions like any other country.

Well sometimes one begins to wonder. I mean take Helen Thomas for example, she wanted Israel to go back home yet was all for giving all the illegal immigrants in the US instant citizenship. Why?


User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (4 years 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4872 times:

Can I also ask a question here? What does Israel offer the US?

Oil? no.
Mineral Wealth? No.
High Level Trade? No.
Perfect Middle East Partner? No.

Israel offers very little to the US in the amount of return we give it. We cannot launch any strategic military operations out of Israel because of the Arab/Israeli conflict. One rocket leaves Israel and it's all to hell, and everyone knows that. So they do nothing for us strategically. Our bases are ALL on Arab Soil.

Israel has a large technology trade, but other than that, they are not much financial interest to the US.

They don't have that many natural resources worth buying.

And finally, they are like the spoiled rich kid on the block that we have to take up for.

I'm not anti-Israel in that rant, I'm just asking, given all of those things, WHY does the US support Israel to no ends? And when an administration calls them out on aggression and violations, the right goes nuts?


Here is the Christian Bit About Protection of Israel:

The whole ideal of the "rapture", is to fulfill the prophecy that (off the top of my head, so forgive me if I get it wrong) all of Israel will be surrounded by their enemies -- this means NO allies left, including the United States -- and they will wage war to destroy the country. After that, God uses divine intervention (I think) to save Israel from their enemies, then the "end of the world" begins. And those nations who did not aid Israel, will perish among enemy nations, along with their people.

The right-wing is highly Christian and even more so, Evangelical. They believe this to be truth, and the inspired word of God. Christians will go to any lengths to support Israel. I'm always talking about how people think everything that is "divinely inspired" is always good. Blind support of Israel is one of those things that is divinely inspired to many.


User currently offlineSpringbok747 From Australia, joined Nov 2004, 4387 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (4 years 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4854 times:

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 8):
Can I also ask a question here? What does Israel offer the US?

There is a lot of trade between the US and Israel, Israel has some major IT R&D centres, plus the IDF is helping the US with some military programs.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/E...DC-ED4EFF8A4008/0/usisrael_pub.pdf

http://www.israelemb.org/US-Israel-Relations/US-israel-Relations.html



אני תומך בישראל
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 10, posted (4 years 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4850 times:

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):
So many people on the left have a deep anger against Israel.

To put it as simply as I can, zrs70, I don't think it's a matter of politics at all. It has to do with racial and religious intolerance.

My personal position is that I guess I'm politically left of centre; and I'm a Christian (originally a Catholic, now non-practising). Again trying to 'keep it short,' I see Israel as just another nation which practises extreme racial and religious prejudice.

In itself, 'Israel' is, in my opinion, the creation of a (truly 'godless') alliance between extremists of the Jewish and Christian religions; mainly those living in the United States in the 1930s and 1940s. They cynically used the Holocaust, plus the postwar political ascendancy of the United States, plus Truman's desperation at the time of the 1948 Presidential election, to grab Palestine by force and turn it into a place where racial and religious discrimination plays an even bigger part than it did in Nazi Germany.

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):
The irony, however, is that Israel is the only country in the region that supports left thinking.

I honestly don't know what you mean by that? If I had to point to a single reason why I'm 'left of centre' I would HAVE to say it's because I believe in 'equal opportunity for all;' which, I guess, includes freedom of religion. Please don't even SUGGEST that the current State of Israel operates on anything LIKE those principles?

[Edited 2010-07-09 23:52:44]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (4 years 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4845 times:

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 9):
There is a lot of trade between the US and Israel, Israel has some major IT R&D centres, plus the IDF is helping the US with some military programs.

They aren't exactly China, India, Canada, The EU, or many Oil Rich Arab nations who let us use their airfields. In comparison, Israel is fairly insignificant to the US on a political/financial.military level than almost every other strong ally we have, yet we claim that Israel is one of our best allies, and refer to our relationship with Israel as some how "Special." Even the current POTUS calls it a "Special Relationship."


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15713 posts, RR: 26
Reply 12, posted (4 years 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4822 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 10):
They cynically used the Holocaust,

Really, the fact that the Holocaust is used as a sort of overriding justification for everything Israel does is a slap in the face to those who died.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 11):
Even the current POTUS calls it a "Special Relationship."

I think that the US should adopt a zero tolerance policy against Israeli human rights abuses and help establish a Palestinian state with a real government, but should likewise adopt a zero tolerance policy to attacks on Israel.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19369 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (4 years 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4817 times:

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):
I've been scratching my head over this one for a while. So many people on the left have a deep anger against Israel.

The irony, however, is that Israel is the only country in the region that supports left thinking.

There is a lot about Israel that is positive and a lot that is negative. It is true that GLBT rights in Israel are almost a non-issue. But they live a two-faced life of having severe issues with racial/ethnic prejudice and apartheid. We did not tolerate this behavior from S. Africa.

My frustration is less with Israel than with a world that has given Israel such latitude.

As a Jew and a relative of a Survivor, it also deeply angers me that Israel's behavior toward the Palestinians in so many ways mirrors that of the Nazis toward the Jews. That the Israeli government uses those same Nazis as a justification for their actions only adds insult to injury.

In many ways, Israel is a fantastic country and culture, brimming with energy and promise. Jews may be famous and infamous, but we have a history of doing big things and achieving huge accomplishments. For the tiny little sliver it is, Israel is responsible for some huge things (one of the best militaries in the world, ICQ, amazing art and music, a population with almost 100% English literacy, first-class healthcare for all). But in other ways, Israel's behavior toward Palestine (and their seeming wonder as to why they're having such trouble with them for not lying down and taking it) makes it all seem rotten to the core.


User currently offlinedxing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (4 years 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4747 times:

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):
I've been scratching my head over this one for a while

I've been shaking my head at some of the comments in this thread.

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):
The irony, however, is that Israel is the only country in the region that supports left thinking.

Tell that to the ultra orthodox Jews who are the really militant ones when it comes to making peace.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 1):
I agree with their right to exist, I do not agree with agressive expansion and settlements into Gaza.

????

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 1):
But the land has been fought over since time immemorial, thus it will probably continue.

So long as Hamas as well as others stick to "destruction of Israel" line then you're right, there won't be any peace.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 2):
Many of us on left realize that Israel has been treating the Palestinians in the Gaza strip, really bad for a while now.

Do you also think lobbing rockets on an almost daily basis into Israel is treating someone badly?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
Or continuing the status quo by never showing any lasting commitment to peace?

Israel has been willing to give up land, abandon settlements, offer financial aid, as well as sign an agreement giving the Palestinians their own land to rule over. Hamas has yet to say they acknowledge Israel's right to even exist. Fair and balanced?

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 4):
What's also rampant is being labeled in 'anti-Semite' if you say anything critical about an Israeli government decision. It's ridiculous. I try to treat them and analyze their actions like any other country.

Sort of like being called a "racist" if you disagree with our President.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
Talk to any Bible-thumper about their feelings about Jews and their hatred is far worse than any criticism towards Israel from the left.

Out comes the warm and fuzzy blanket.

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 6):
In many ways, you can compare modern day Israel to America during the Jim Crow Law (racially segregated) era.

???? Blacks in this country wanted to see its destruction and drive the white man out?

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 8):
The whole ideal of the "rapture", is to fulfill the prophecy that (off the top of my head, so forgive me if I get it wrong) all of Israel will be surrounded by their enemies -- this means NO allies left, including the United States -- and they will wage war to destroy the country. After that, God uses divine intervention (I think) to save Israel from their enemies, then the "end of the world" begins. And those nations who did not aid Israel, will perish among enemy nations, along with their people.

Yikes!!!!! The idea of the Rapture is that those that have lived a good clean Godly life will be spared the end days and the persecution of the Anti-Christ. You're kind of mixing and mashing the storyline. Before the Rapture, so the story goes, Israel will be attacked. The story does not specifically say by "every" country on the face of the earth. It also says that God will protect Israel and all those attacking will be destroyed. Shortly after that the Rapture occurs and the end days begin.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 8):
The right-wing is highly Christian and even more so, Evangelical.

Yet another fuzzy blanket appears. Most Christians are not Evangelicals. Evangelicals get most of the exposure because they have a tendency towards being loud.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
We did not tolerate this behavior from S. Africa.

Then again the political situation was completely different. The blacks in SA weren't tossing rockets at white settlements nor threatening to kill every single white person in the country.


Israel is not perfect. But they have had to fight 3 major wars in the past 61 years just to maintain their survival. This after the original UN agreement split the land pretty equally between the Palestinians and the Jews. Israel, as I noted above has made offers of land, aid, and comfort to the Palestinians all the while suffering rocket attacks and suicide bombers as well as having their Olympic athletes kidnapped and planes hijacked. If Mexico were lobbing rockets over the border into CA how long do you think the residents of San Diego, El Paso, or Brownsville would put up with that? Yet Israel is supposed to just ignore that kind of behavior?

Charles Krauthammer had a good piece on this a few weeks ago.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2010/06/03/AR2010060304287.html

As he succintly points out, everytime Israel gives a little, more is expected while the opposite is never expected from the Palestinians.


User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5665 posts, RR: 20
Reply 15, posted (4 years 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4719 times:

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 6):
People on the left certainly don't like seeing one group consistently persecuting another and keeping a sizable population down politically, socially, and economically.

   Then why the same "people on the left" so often cut a blank check to leftist dictatorships like Cuba, Venezuela or even worse?

http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=21386

[Edited 2010-07-10 04:42:14]

User currently offlineracko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4856 posts, RR: 20
Reply 16, posted (4 years 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4699 times:

I personally resent the sentiment that criticizing Israeli policies makes one Anti-Israel. As a German I feel we have a moral obligation to the state of Israel, perhaps bigger than any other nation on this planet. And I feel that the settlement policies are not just unfair towards the Palestinians, but also putting Israel at grave danger.

Israel can be two out of these three things: Jewish, democratic, consist of the whole of "Greater Israel/Palestine" (the whole land mass including Gaza, today's legal Israel, the West Bank).

If it consists of the whole of Greater Israel, the majority of people will soon not be jewish. Then you're faced with the choice of being democratic, i.e. giving everybody an equal vote, which will result in an Arab government, or preserving jewish Israel, i.e. not giving the Palestinians a vote and oppressing them à la Apartheid South Africa.

I believe the only way of ensuring Israel's long-term future is a fair two-state solution which includes a sustainable Palestinian nation. I also believe that the current Palestinian leadership in the West Bank with PM Fayyad is as good as it's ever going to be: If he fails with his peaceful and economy-minded policies the extremist forces will use it as proof that peaceful policies towards Israel are doomed and that an armed struggle is their only choice. That's why in my opinion the Israeli government as well as all the other stakeholders should do everything they can to support Fayyad instead of sabotaging his efforts with new settlements.

I also don't think that you have to get rid of all extremists, something no country has ever managed to do. You need to make sure that there's no popular support for extremists, and the easiest way to do that is offering the people a viable alternative.


User currently offlineus330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3866 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (4 years 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4688 times:

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):
So many people on the left have a deep anger against Israel

The underlying basis for why I think so many on the left seem to "hate" Israel--I use hate in quotations because it isn't that they hate Israel, its that they aren't willing to give Israel the benefit of the doubt and don't trust it--is the lens in which they view the Israel-Palestinian conflict. There's a significant portion of American liberals who see the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as being a relic of the era of colonialism, where the European whites move into another country, steal land and abuse the native non-white population, and exploit the natural resources...etc. The whole oppressor versus the oppressed debate--and the left sees the Israelis as oppressors. From that lens/perspective, you then look for other things or examples to support that point of view, or appear similar to other colonial/racial conflicts of the past.

I also think a lot of people on the left subscribe to the simplistic (and false) belief that if the U.S. abandoned our support of Israel, the Arab and Islamic realms would suddenly love us and see us as their friend; that the basis for a lot of the fundamentalist Islamic hatred of the U.S. stems from our support of Israel, and so the threat/hatred from the fudamentalist muslims would also decrease as well.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 1):
I think the right paints liberals in a bad light in this situation. That Israel is our only ally in the region, which is completely and utterly false.

The right doesn't promote Israel as our only ally in the region (which, I agree, is false)--it promotes it as the only ally in the region that shares a similar set of political and economic beliefs as the U.S.--and as "democracy's beachhead in the middle east."

That's a big difference from the promoting it as our only ally--Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia (just to name a few) are also U.S. allies, but they aren't exactly thriving liberal democracies.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 1):
The religious right, which forms the base of the Republican party, believes that if Israel is not protected and is taken, then God will also take their nations

You are right in that those on the religious right have an irrational belief regarding Israel, but the irrational belief you speak of isn't the one they have. The religious right and the christian evangelicals are indeed vociferous supporters of Israel--in some cases, more die-hard than American jewish organizations. Jewish groups put up with them because they need the added influence, and so will work with them--but its kind of like two parties that mistrust one another temporarily putting aside that mistrust to work for a common of goal of sorts.

The irrational belief held by evangelicals and the religious right is that in order for the messiah to return, all Jews must return to Israel, and then the rapture will take place, armageddon will occur, all the "evil" will be exterminated, etc.

Of course, the mistrust in the relationship is that the evangelical christians want to convert their jewish partners (and think of them as belonging to an inferior religion, but one that is "less inferior" to Islam) --understandably, Jews don't like that so much.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 2):
I hold them to a higher expectation
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
Despite this, not supporting Israel unconditionally seems to equal anti-Semitism.

It may seem that way, but it doesn't. Its only anti-Semitic if you are holding Israel to a different set of standards than other countries--and that's the official line towed by one of the leading Jewish civil rights organizations in the U.S., the ADL.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
Does being pro-West and liberal thinking give them license to practice aparteid?
Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 6):
In many ways, you can compare modern day Israel to America during the Jim Crow Law (racially segregated) era. The Jewish majority - like the American white majority - enjoys all kinds of constitutional freedoms as well as political and economic control over virtually everything in the nation.

Gaza and the West Bank aren't a part of Israel--so by definition, it cannot be compared to apartheid and the Jim Crow laws.

Now, I admit that the Orthodox and the ultra-Orthodox punch above their weight in terms of influence and leverage compared to their relative population size, but there is no basis for the apartheid/Jim Crow comparison.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 1):
I agree with their right to exist, I do not agree with agressive expansion and settlements into Gaza

What Gaza settlements? Israel has pulled out of Gaza, and has no plans to expand there.

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 4):
I think a better question would be why do so many on the right think of the Israeli government as absolutely infallible.

It's not that many on the right think that the Israeli government is infallible, it is that they are more likely to give Israel the benefit of the doubt--in the same way that many on the left are unlikely to give Israel the benefit of the doubt.

It is generally only those on the religious right who believe that the Israeli government is infallible--and their motives are far from pure (in the sense that pure means national interest).

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
Talk to any Bible-thumper about their feelings about Jews and their hatred is far worse than any criticism towards Israel from the left

Agree and disagree--You are certainly correct that the extremist right is indeed viscerally anti-Semitic, but then again, so are those on the extremist left. In terms of trying to "diagram" anti-Semitic beliefs on the US political spectrum, it is basically a circle--the groups on the respective extremes share similar beliefs regarding Jews.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 8):
Israel has a large technology trade, but other than that, they are not much financial interest to the US.

Israel is a huge entrepreneurial center, as well as being a leader in agricultural research in desert environments--partnerships between Israeli universities and american universities.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
the fact that the Holocaust is used as a sort of overriding justification for everything Israel does is a slap in the face to those who died

It isn't--the Holocaust is only brought up when people discuss dismantling or destroying the state of Israel, or as a reason for why the Jews need a homeland.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 18, posted (4 years 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4633 times:

Quoting us330 (Reply 17):
or as a reason for why the Jews need a homeland.

Just as a matter of interest, why indeed does anyone think that the Jews need a 'homeland'?

After all, they're a religion, not a nationality?

Niether Muslims nor Buddhists nor Hindus nor Christians appear to feel that they need a 'homeland.' And, speaking for myself, if someone ever proposed a Christian/Catholic 'homeland' anywhere in the world, it would be the very last place I'd choose to live in (unless, maybe, they chose Australia, because the Australians would cut them down to size within five minutes  Smile).

So what is the practical logic behind this whole 'Jewish homeland' business?

[Edited 2010-07-10 08:22:52]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11516 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (4 years 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4609 times:

Having been "outed" as a left-wing extremist, my biggest problem with Isreal is the United States continuing to give money and arms to them when it has been proven they can fend for themselves. They try to make things so much better for their own Israeli base while seeming to ignore and push away into ghettos the minorities. I also have a problem with them being touted as a Jewish state when the land is sacred to Christians and Muslims as well.

Quoting dxing (Reply 14):
Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 2):
Many of us on left realize that Israel has been treating the Palestinians in the Gaza strip, really bad for a while now.

Do you also think lobbing rockets on an almost daily basis into Israel is treating someone badly?

After the rockets are lobbed into Israel from Gaza/West Bank, the media always follows that with "The attack was in retaliation for Isreal doing XYZ."

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 7):
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
and general dislike of Muslims

Just the ones who fly planes into buildings and decapitate people.

Big huge blanket. There is a section of Southwest Portland where Catholic Latinos, Jews, and Muslims all live together. There are both a mosque and a synagogue and churches nearby. There is no decapitations. No bombs. No rockets being lobbed. No fist fights. The cops rarely patrol the area. How many Muslims from Morrocco, Tunisia, Jordan, Indonesia work hard to fly planes into buildings? Much like the Evangelical "Christians" of the United States, these Muslims that want "death to America" are small in number.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinefuturepilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4595 times:

Quoting dxing (Reply 14):
Do you also think lobbing rockets on an almost daily basis into Israel is treating someone badly?

As I continue to say. I don't hate Israel, I just think their "wounded animal" Facade is long gone. I'm not saying they shouldn't protect themselves when they're attacked, I actually supported them against Hamas in the 2005 summer war. I just think that if they want the undivided support of America, they need to also respect other people's human rights. How are you helping things by stopping toilet paper and baby food from getting into the Gaza strip? It's beyond extreme, and frankly, I don't care for it and neither does the vast majority on the political left. On the other hand, the political right continues to make numerous excuses for Israel, as we with dxing. Excuses that support Israel in a lot of their strong arm tactics.



"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offlinezrs70 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 3108 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (4 years 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4585 times:

I can't believe there are posters who are equating modern Israel to Nazi Germany. I want to be clear. Those posters are saying that the Jewish treatment of non-Jews is worse than the Nazi Solution to the Jews?


14 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2013
User currently offlinemerlot From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (4 years 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4571 times:

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):
The irony, however, is that Israel is the only country in the region that supports left thinking.

If you're Jewish, sure. If you're Palestinian in the occupied territories, I don't think security checkpoints and blockades are exactly in line with what you call "left thinking".

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):
I can't imagine a female who cares about equality wanting to live in another country in the region.

Perhaps being merely the most palatable country "in the region" is not good enough for women or those on the left to autoamtically support?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
Perhaps a better question would be why so many people in the US do support Israel unconditionally.

AIPAC.

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 4):
I think a better question would be why do so many on the right think of the Israeli government as absolutely infallible.

They don't think the Israeli regime is infallible anymore than they thought Batista, the Shah of Iran, Saddam Hussein, Ferdinand Marcos, Noriega, the Saudis, Hosni Mubarak, Pervez Musharraf or numerous other regimes useful for pragmatic reasons, but largely at odds with Western views on liberty, were infallible. Israel is politically powerful stateside and regionally powerful in the Middle East. Take those two points away and Israel is no more interesting to the Right than a dozen poor and terrorized countries in Africa they ignore.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 7):
Just the ones who fly planes into buildings and decapitate people.

By my rough estimate around 150000 Americans were killed on the streets by other Americans, presumably Christian, since 2002. Zero Muslims have flown planes into buildings since 2002 and only a hanful have ever done that in history. Do you also hate these far more deadly Christians who kill in far greater numbers every week?

Merlot

[Edited 2010-07-10 10:04:27]

[Edited 2010-07-10 10:05:39]

User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 2971 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (4 years 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4542 times:

I don't have a problem with Israel, the country. I have a problem with Israel's government. I have said that I support Israel's right to exist, but that doesn't mean that Palestine should not exist. And quite frankly, I have yet to see steps taken to stabilize a region that has long been volatile and seen many battles.

Should Palestine take steps? Yes. Renounce terrorism (this would apply to Hamas) as a condition for peace.
Should Israel take steps? Yes. Stop any further West Bank settlements and return the lands captured in the 1967 war, lands that originally were not meant for them. If they claim to have an advanced military I see no threat from possible strikes from Syria and Lebanon.

I think the real anti-Israel sentiment stems from the fact that Israel wants peace and prosperity without giving anything in return. It wants rockets from Palestine to cease, but has yet to give them their land as was agreed by the UN at the time. It wants to be secured from its Arab neighbors, yet won't take any steps for peace with them. Now we see that it wants to maintain a stable tie with Turkey and yet won't acknowledge that it messed up. Nothing is free and unless Israel prefers isolation (which I think it does), then it should take steps to ensure stability and prove it is not an enemy. Maintaining the status quo, though beneficial, will not last forever and I don't think 50 years will go by without an American president changing stance and demanding more from Israel.



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 24, posted (4 years 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4535 times:

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 21):
I want to be clear. Those posters are saying that the Jewish treatment of non-Jews is worse than the Nazi Solution to the Jews?

Not necessarily worse, mate.

But most definitely 'similar.' 'Out of the same box,' one might say.......

What else is Gaza, other than the biggest 'concentration camp' the world has ever seen, up to this point?

Besides - as I and others have said - the motivation of the Nazis was political. The motivation of the Israeli Jews (I don't include Jews in general, in my experience the Jewish religion is as tolerant as many, and more tolerant than most) appears to be religious, not political.

To my mind, that makes it even worse........

[Edited 2010-07-10 11:10:05]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
25 Dreadnought : Anti-semetism has been a linchpin of progressives and socialists for over a hundred years. Jews have a centuries-old reputation for being shrewd busi
26 MD11Engineer : Funny. why were then so many early socialists Jews (Trotzki, Rosa Luxemburg, Marx etc.). Why was the Kibbuz system originally set up by Jewish social
27 Post contains links NAV20 : Just as a matter of interest, Dreadnought, that angle goes back to Magna Carta in AD1215. And is based on a misunderstanding. It's not commonly recog
28 1stfl94 : Until the international community stops taking sides in the Israel/Palestine conflict there will not be a solution. Internally, Israel and Palestine b
29 Aaron747 : Yes, but only because it serves an opportunistic political purpose to do so. This statement is also a bit of a misnomer as Jews had been among the mo
30 Post contains links signol : I suggest you take a look through history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe Black South Africans *were* involved in armed struggle agai
31 WarRI1 : The word and practice of Hypocricy comes to mind. Can you practice hypocricy? I guess so. Many people and countries, including Israel do. Europeans s
32 KiwiRob : Completely agree. I wonder what the outcome would have been had Turks attacked and boarded Israeli relief ships in international waters, sure as shit
33 Aaron747 : I thought it was fairly common knowledge in Commonwealth countries that Americans generally have a poor understanding of what transpired in 1970s and
34 Post contains images scbriml : I've been scratching my head over this one for a while, why do so many right-wing people have stereotypical views of those who are more left-wing than
35 zrs70 : Perhaps you know something I don't. What was it like in the Nazi Concentration/ death camps. Did the people own their homes? Were they able to travel
36 Mir : So why does Israel keep expanding settlements in the West Bank? I'm very supportive of Israel's right to exist, but I'd like them to show more of an
37 Post contains images BMI727 : Until something happens and they take it all back and go back to square one. Israel goes back to being a high tech western nation and the Palestinian
38 Post contains links dxing : I see it as exactly the opposite. The rockets are launched and then the IDF demolishes where they believe the rockets came from. http://www.bloomberg
39 DocLightning : You're right. They had to lie down and take it. The Palestinians aren't.
40 dxing : The Palestinians started it. They were the ones that refused to abide by the original UN agreement. "Some men you just can't reach. So you get what w
41 Post contains images Mir : Ah, yes, taking a page out of the playbook of the mob. "Hey, why don't you give us a little something, and then we'll talk about whether we should st
42 dxing : How do you take someone seriously that refuses to renounce terrorism against your country nor even admit your legal right to exist? What point is the
43 Aaron747 : There are political dimensions to PA and/or Hamas leaders being unable to take the positions you are demanding. Those dimensions will not be reduced
44 dxing : Just as the same political dimensions apply to the government of Israel unless you want a winner take all war. Other than dropping bombs and shooting
45 Mir : There's the fact that the West Bank is not part of Israel. I'm not expecting Israel to give up anything, I'm expecting them to stop taking things. Th
46 dxing : According to whom? The 1993 Oslo accords, which are still the working frame work for both sides states that until a final agreement is reached the te
47 BMI727 : Why should they be? They have a pretty nice life as a high tech western nation with friends who might rebuke them from time to time but simply will n
48 Aaron747 : Unfortunately that's where the Islamist radicals in Hamas and Zionist diehards in the Israeli right-wing have a goal in common. Quite a different his
49 dxing : Not really, before the Palestinians were there Israel existed. If nothing else the story have come full circle. What if....... we could play that gam
50 Aaron747 : The region surrounding Israel and tribal regions of Afghanistan are not remotely the same part of the world culturally, economically or otherwise. Um
51 dxing : No, honor rules all, even above money and the Palestinians feel their honor is at stake. So did the native americans.
52 Aaron747 : Politically that may be how people feel about it but at the end of the day people want a home and to feed and clothe their kids. That comes before an
53 einsteinboricua : If I had a dollar for every time that has happened... The UN Partition Plan for Palestine. In fact, it's a wonder Palestinians are willing to negotia
54 futurepilot16 : If Palestinians are firing rockets, by all means, I give them all my support to fire back against the Palestinians. What I'm talking about is when th
55 dxing : It's a wonder they haven't realized yet that they are lucky to have what they have. Everytime they have attacked with the intention of throwing the J
56 Post contains links NAV20 : You seem to be uncommonly ill-informed, zrs70. Many people in Gaza have no homes, because they are not allowed to import building materials with whic
57 KiwiRob : Sounds rather like a concentration camp or ghetto.
58 Mortyman : and whenever the Palestinians has come close to achieving this, Israel changes their demands or give further demands.... Israel has a whole list of t
59 BMI727 : So I take it that if some Native American showed up at your door and explained that you are living on what was formerly his ancestors' land you would
60 ozglobal : This is NOT Orthodox Christian 'Biblical' doctrine, but an 1 century old US Bible belt invention. The only people in the world who hold this fanciful
61 MingToo : How do you explain that Israel has blocked virtually all EXPORTS from the Gaza strip ? Israel attacked first in 1967 by attacking the Egyptian air fo
62 us330 : I honestly don't know, and even as a supporter of Israel, I think their first step should be to either remove the West Bank settlements or to have a
63 NAV20 : Have to respond to that view - which is simply not supported by any of the documentary or archaeological evidence; all of which points to the Palesti
64 racko : Netanyahu first acknowledged the right of existence of a Palestinian state in 2009. Both Abbas and Fayyad have accepted Israel's right of existence lo
65 futurepilot16 : By mercilessly killing innocent unarmed aid workers. They also have a right to treat the Palestinians like Animals? I'm sure if you lived in the Gaza
66 seb146 : Don't you think Hamas and PLO are trying/have tried to do that? And Hamas is freely elected by the Palestinian people, IIRC. I just wonder if the dis
67 Mir : And did the Israelis coordinate such settlements with the government of the Palestinian Authority? We can talk about technicalities, but the land is
68 GDB : The 'political left' as it's called, as in the mainstream in Europe not the far left, was actually rather supportive and sympathetic to Israel for a l
69 AGM100 : GDB .... your post is well done as usual. However you leave out the other side of the coin. Israeli borders have been under threat from day one . Cros
70 AGM100 : To finish my point .... the left has always been perceived as being aligned against the traditional judeo christian ideas in the in US. Therefore ...t
71 GDB : Understood, I am really of the 'plague on both their houses' stance. Israel is here to stay, but they have to find a way of sharing that patch of lan
72 seb146 : Hmmmm... Interesting. Keeping in mind I am a Democrat and Protestant (though not necissarily in that order), I have always seen the left not being an
73 Post contains links and images Superfly : Let's not confuse "anti-Semitic" with anti-Israel. You need to understand the definition of "semitic". A Semite is an Arab, Akkadian, Amharic, Arabic
74 aerorobnz : Unfortunate and atrocious things have happened throughout history, often caused by individually psychotic delusional megalomaniac dictators like Hitle
75 NAV20 : Not sure, GDB, that it CAN stay in its present form - and I'm not speaking from the religious angle but from the economic and geographical ones. In f
76 Post contains links MingToo : I find it curious that so many identify the main stumbling block as Hamas being unwilling to accept an Israeli state, when the official policy of the
77 MD11Engineer : This is the statement of the ruling rightwing expansionist Likud party. you´ll find that moderate leftwing Israelis, moderate leftwing Palaestinians
78 Post contains links us330 : I'm not confusing anti-Semitic and anti-Israel. The two aren't interchangeable terms. You are right, they aren't anti-Semitic as long as they don't c
79 GDB : There is another factor too. The end of 'plucky little Israel', its greatly outnumbered stand against a range of hostile neighbours gained sympathy an
80 viaggiare : The conflict will not resolve by human effort. If we look at the history of what's happened there in mere human terms, it's a total fiasco. The same
81 Superfly : Louis Farakkan and the Nation of Islam come to mind. What concerns me is why they're considered 'left-wing' by some. If you've read up on what they s
82 Post contains links Aaron747 : An interesting perspective on the issue - Hitchens makes a considerable indictment against Obama that I accept is mostly accurate. http://www.slate.co
83 Post contains links dxing : Hamas has yet to come close to achieving that. Please list the change in Israels primary demand of security? The Palestinians agreed to the original
84 NAV20 : Tend to agree, dxing. Apart from anything else, the OT Scriptures are highly unreliable as historical sources, since they cannot possibly have been w
85 BMI727 : Because the Indians never fought back? Why should they have listened to the UN? Nobody else does. That is part of the problem. The UN is going around
86 dxing : No, because the Jews are still here and the Philistines are not. BTW, can you name the last time Palestinians ruled Palestine? No they fought back. B
87 Post contains links NAV20 : The UN never approved the setting up of separate states. It approved only a single federated nation containing a Arab state and a Jewish state. In ot
88 MingToo : Israel's demand have been consistent. They refuse to accept a Palestinian State. The Palestinians did not agree to the UN Partition Plan. They and th
89 BMI727 : So you think that the Palestinians should do the same? Just keep it as it is and let the Israelis decide if they have been good enough to get chocola
90 Raffik : I just noticed that you posted this same topic in summer 2006- why again?? Have you ever been to the Middle East? I have lived in Lebanon in the past
91 Post contains links dxing : Exactly what do you think they meant by "States"? There was no recommendation that they be ruled over by anyone, especially the British. The wording
92 Post contains links NAV20 : 100% wrong, I'm afraid, Raffik. The British (who were 'mandated' by the League of Nations to occupy Palestine after the defeat of Turkey in 1918, jus
93 Post contains links NAV20 : Why this fixation on 'the British'? They were just the 'caretakers'......... UN Resolution 181 was perfectly clear; the two states, plus the Jerusale
94 Post contains links MingToo : They have at times been offered land that is already theirs but has been taken and settled by Israel. They have not made peace with Egypt and Jordan.
95 BMI727 : Of course they should make peace. But do you expect them to do that by just bowing to the wishes of Israel? Which is exactly what I said. And for the
96 Post contains images einsteinboricua : Yeah, they have offered so much land that every year new settlement plans are made in the West bank. The Gaza Strip is just part of what the Palestin
97 seb146 : Here is a problem the right seems to have moreso than the left: There are different factions of Palastinian political groups. There are the factions
98 dxing : They were the responsible government ruling the area at the time. Perfectly clear, two, thats 2 States. It does not say anywhere that they are to be
99 Raffik : 1. "There is a huge gap between us (Jews) and our enemies not just in ability but in morality, culture, sanctity of life, and conscience. They are our
100 Post contains links dxing : None of those commets were issued by the State of Israel as official policy of the State. I suppose if I wanted to spend the time I could find just a
101 Raffik : As you can see, they were issued by presidents of Israel throughout the years. A lot of them were public, some were extracts from diaries and some we
102 BMI727 : Lucky break for the Israelis. They'd better hope it stays that way or they will have serious problems. Of course that is part of why Israel does thei
103 MingToo : So can you show us the link where the official document of the Palestinians says that they will never agree to an Israeli State ? Or will it just be
104 BMI727 : It's simple: leverage. If we are the ones supplying the Egyptians, Jordanians, and Israelis, then we have something to hold over their heads. If any
105 MingToo : Exactly. And what might Egypt or Jordan do that the US would consider out of line ? Attack or pressure one of their neighbours perhaps. There appears
106 BMI727 : The leverage we have via aid to Israel would be useful...if anyone ever had the cojones to use it.
107 dxing : Presidents of the United States made milititant statements about how the spread of Soviet style communism would not be tolerated over the 44 year col
108 BMI727 : ...unless the Israelis killed them first. Either way, the Israelis do not want such people running around, so they are perfectly happy if Hamas whack
109 Raffik : I never said they don't. Ofcourse all countries have a right to defend their borders- including the Palestinians!! Why are children's toys banned fro
110 einsteinboricua : Despite Hamas being elected, notice how negotiations have been with Fatah, so technically, Hamas has yet to implement their platform. Then why were s
111 MingToo : Not at all. There is without doubt fault on the Palestinian side. Hamas is wrong to call for the removal of the State of Israel. But my point is that
112 Post contains links dxing : Please post the link that shows the government of Israel supports opposition members of Hamas being killed. The link below shows that they are quite
113 Post contains links MingToo : Are you a subscriber of the GIYUS Megaphone Desktop tool that informs Israel supporters of discussions and polls so that they can rally to the defenc
114 BMI727 : We both know that sort of thing doesn't make it onto the internet. And we both know that without Hamas Israel would have no leg to stand on. Luckily
115 Post contains links MingToo : Well lets see what happens when Hamas stops the rocket attacks. Here's the chart for 2008. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rock_mort_gaza_2008.JPG
116 racko : You do know who Salam Fayyad is, right?
117 Post contains links Raffik : http://axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/Article_60287.shtml http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article11302.shtml It's a little unfair that you lay the bl
118 SOBHI51 : Dxing i am going to ask you with all due respect to take that blindfold you are wearing with which you can only see things from Israel point of vue.
119 TheCommodore : Hey dixg, you forgot one thing. How bout asking the Israeli Government to stop building settlements on land that is NOT theirs That view is not held
120 dxing : Blame? Who refused to participate in the process starting back in the middle of the last century? Who still calls for the destruction of Israel. Why
121 einsteinboricua : You do realize that all Hamas militants are Palestinians but not all Palestinians are Hamas militants, right?
122 dxing : Of couse just as not all Israeli's are members of the Likud party. One more time, last time. Israel is not perfect. The ball however is in the Palest
123 TheCommodore : It's called theft, that's what it's called. Um, who's negotiating ? Israel takes while the Palestine's watch on helplessly. That may be the case You
124 MingToo : I think this is the crux of the matter. There appears to be little chance of peace within current geopolitics. But the world is changing and at quite
125 dxing : The land can be returned. When someone loses their life to a rocket or a mortar, or a soldier is kidnapped and held for years, how do you get that ti
126 SOBHI51 : You keep mixing up Palestinians and Hamas Really? Two days ago the same day that Netanyahu was visiting the white house 23 more settlements were appr
127 MingToo : How long would the Kuwaiti's have lasted if Saddam had decided to get busy getting rid of them in 1991. Yet he didn't. So we have a new moral yardsti
128 Post contains links racko : The general consensus is that time is not on the Israeli's side: The demography changes not in their favor and the international opinion is switching
129 Post contains images NAV20 : dxing, really....... Israel cannot 'vacate' the settlements as they are the only things that keep the Israeli state solvent. To put it shortly, one o
130 Scorpio : dxing's and an few others' posts are a beautiful, though no doubt unintentional, illustration of why there will never be peace in the Middle East. The
131 einsteinboricua : Who's the bigger power? Who can really set an example? Who can really become a victim instead of an abuser? If I were Israel, I'd cease my attitude a
132 Post contains images dxing : Using that logic BP should be able to walk away and claim it's not their mess. But of course since you are of the opinion that no one is responsible
133 SOBHI51 : What is not acceptable is you trying to show Israel as the victim and everybody else as the bad guys.
134 Scorpio : Behold our resident mindreader! One problem: you're not very good at it. I never said that no-one is responsible. Both are. And when this mess has be
135 zrs70 : Question: Back in 1948, what did the other countries in the region do to help the Palestinians? We rarely talk about it, but so many Jews were driven
136 Post contains images n229nw : great posts. I tend to agree with much of the criticism of Israel here. HOWEVER, extreme and inaccruate statements only weaken an argument, so I want
137 us330 : I don't know how reflective this is of what they were doing in 1948, but within the past year, the NY Times ran about a 2/3 page long article on how
138 Post contains images TheCommodore : That is ridiculous, why return land to the Palestinians then. It should never have been taken to start with. And as for your other point, the same ca
139 DocLightning : There's another issue at work here: There are two main divisions of Jews in modern times. There are the Reform and Conservative (and Modern Orthodox)
140 racko : Certainly true what you say about the Haredi. When I was in Israel I had the feeling that many young, secular Israelis view the Haredi as just as alie
141 BMI727 : And you are of the opinion that Israel has done everything that they reasonably can in the interest of peace, which is a whole new shade of stupid. C
142 MingToo : I think that a lot of moderate Israeli's wouldn't stand for it either. Media coverage, while manipulated to some or other extent, is far more pervasi
143 ME AVN FAN : Please adapt your terms to Europe and the Middle East. "Liberals" overhere are NOT leftists. Social Liberals are left of the centre. Economy Liberals
144 Mortyman : It is also questionable how long the USA will / are able to help Israel economically. There are also interesting developments in Turkey, where the co
145 ME AVN FAN : [/quote] Sure, as Mr Erdogan and his crew realize the actual strength of their country. The military-industrial giant finding new roles !
146 DocLightning : That's very disturbing. What we are going to wind up are two rapidly expanding religious extremist movements that will get into a generational war. T
147 GDB : The only time nuclear weapons offer any kind of stability, through deterrence, is when they really cannot be used, certainly not to change the battle
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