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Switching From PC To Macbook Pro, A Good Idea?  
User currently offlinerunway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2153 posts, RR: 36
Posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 7836 times:

I'm currently contemplating switching to Mac. My current pc is slowly dieing out and I'm semi-sick of having to replace PC's every 1.5 years.

I'm looking for a computer I can easily haul around (I fly 1-2x per month and travel every weekend).

One that can easily deal with photo editing without lag (ie. dealing with raw format). I don't edit videos.

Playing the occasional game with the pc. And otherwise surfing the net in the evening.


Two things that currently go against a Mac:

-Higher cost
-Getting used to the OS and getting the software for it.

Can anyone suggest whether getting a Macbook Pro would be a good idea and which one to go for based on my needs above?

Cheers

28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10992 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7814 times:

Do it.

I was a PC user (and a Mac-hater) for many many years. Then I got the iPhone, and loved it. Then I upgraded my iPhone, and loved it more. Then Vista came out, and I really simply could not stand how incredibly slow my NEW PC was. And since I didn't have a license for XP, I had a couple options - buy XP outright ($$$$) or buy a new computer. I decided to wait until I needed a new computer, and bought a 13" Macbook pro. I. Love. It.

The switch is easy. The only software I bought for the Mac is Photoshop elements and Office for Mac. Office runs MUCH better on a Mac than Office 2007 bloatware did on a PC. The Mac is small, easily fitting in my carryon bag. I fly a lot for work (36000 so far this year) and at 4.5 pounds, the Macbook Pro has been about the easiest bit of standard equipment I have had in my set.

Most of what people use their computers for these days is word processing, occasional spreadsheets and presentations, and the rest is all on the internet. I find that the Mac loads and presents pages significantly faster than the PC ever did.

It also runs quiet. It also is less bulky. It also has a better display. It also never crashes. It also doesn't suffer from viruses.

Quite simply, it is the best computer I have ever owned, and I'm kicking myself that I didn't make the switch sooner.



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineMingToo From Zimbabwe, joined Jun 2009, 464 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7812 times:

The Macbook pro is a quality product and for sure the general lifespan of MAC products is better than PC's but then the cost is significantly higher as you say.

Some general advice:

If you can try to test out the machine first in a store. Everyone has different preferences for the details like keyboards. I personally just don't like the macbook pro one, but a friend loves his.

You are always going to have the portability versus screen size / resolution. 13 inch is nice and compact size for a laptop, but the screen is a bit small. 17 is a great screen (but at a price on the macbook pro) but chunky to lug around easily. 15 is probably a good compromise, but again if you can try to check it out in a store.

One thing to consider. If you are going to be using it a lot at home and just moderately while travelling, then having a smaller laptop like a 13 inch but also buying a 24 inch monitor to use at home works really well. That will be full HD resolution or better. Add an external keyboard and a mouse and its just like you have all the advantages of a desktop while still being able to just unplug it and then travel.

If you do that, then its best to get an external USB hub to plug in all those external parts. The keyboard, the mouse, maybe an external drive for backup, speakers, printer ... all of them go into the hub so you only have to plug one USB into the laptop (plus video and power cables).

If you do end up buying a PC as opposed to a MAC (and there are plenty of all sizes out there), then consider the battery life. While lower power netbooks can give you 8-9 hours, normal more powerful laptops don't unless you pay a heavy premium.

You will probably find that a laptop with a 3-4 hour battery life costs $600 but one with 7-8 may cost $1000 for the same specification. But a spare battery will only cost perhaps 60 dollars and give you the extra 2-4 hours ... and they don't weigh much (a bit of a pain to shut it down to change the battery of course). Its a cheaper option to get the same life.

The macbook pro's however do have long advertised battery life of 8+ hours, which is one of the reasons that they have a premium price.

Something else you can look at if you are concerned about being able to run windows applications is a product called Parallels. That lets you run a Windows Virtual Machine on a Mac, in effect running it like a PC in a window (VM Ware is the other option but Parallels is the market leader).

This stuff is impressive, it really is like having a PC and a Mac all rolled into one, but it is a little on the techy side to get it all set up.

http://www.parallels.com/uk/products/desktop/

Hope all that rambling is of some use


User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7801 times:

I've owned both, but the fact that I'm so hard on Laptops makes me just buy PC's. Whatever you do, do not break your MacBook. They are so expensive and the parts are extremely expensive. I have a 17" older MacBook Pro sitting on the top shelf of my closet with a busted screen. $900 for a new screen, $700 for a new 17" PC. I dunno....I go through about 1 laptop a year due to the fact that I simply destroy them.

The problem for PC users switching to Mac OS is the fact that Mac OS is so f'ing simple. It's so simple, it's hard. With MS you are used to going from folder to sub folder, to sub sub folder. Mac, you just go there. When you first switch, you find yourself hunting for things that are in plain site, simply because you had to hunt for them on PC.

It's great equipment, just VERY expensive.

UAL


User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10992 posts, RR: 52
Reply 4, posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7794 times:

Quoting MingToo (Reply 2):
One thing to consider. If you are going to be using it a lot at home and just moderately while travelling, then having a smaller laptop like a 13 inch but also buying a 24 inch monitor to use at home works really well. That will be full HD resolution or better. Add an external keyboard and a mouse and its just like you have all the advantages of a desktop while still being able to just unplug it and then travel.

This is exactly what I do. I picked up a $200 1080p monitor and the DVI/HDMI dongle from the Apple store. I also bought a bluetooth keyboard and the Apple Magic Mouse for about $60 each. When I bring my laptop home, I simply plug in the monitor and press a key on the keyboard (which the computer instantly recognizes) and it's like having a desktop computer.



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8617 posts, RR: 43
Reply 5, posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7792 times:

Mac vs. PC flame war in 3, 2, 1... whatever you do, don't listen to people who bash either platform.

Before you buy any new laptop, check if the performance of the computer you already have can be improved by a re-installation of the OS.

Other than that and as always, it depends on what you want. I have a 15" MacBook Pro bought early last year and couldn't be happier. I switched to it from a desktop PC running Windows XP. One large, but superficial, factor is obviously the design - and also a matter of taste entirely. I like the unibody because it's sturdy, good looking and it's also very easy to open to e.g. remove dust from the fans with compressed air.

Another very important characteristic is the MultiTouch trackpad. When I got my MBP, I was afraid that it might be an awkward thing to use, that I might miss my mouse (Logitech MX 1000) and so on, but none of that happened. I'm extremely happy with the trackpad... and with the keyboard as well, for that matter.

As for getting used to the OS, it'll probably be easier than you think. And assuming that you don't currently have Windows 7, you'd have to switch to that anyway. There are loads of differences, but most of them are easy to figure out and compared to Windows (XP Home, XP Pro, Vista and 7), I find OS X more logical and easier to use.

As for RAW image files, iPhoto can handle them and it comes with the computer. Depending on the editing that you want to do, it may be enough for your needs. If it isn't, Lightroom and Photoshop can help (or GIMP, if it has to be free); which leads me to software. You must remember that most of the Windows software you have won't run on OS X. That means that you'll have to obtain e.g. Microsoft Office:mac anew. You ought to factor that into the price tag.  

However, a lot of software and advice is freely available on the web. Firefox & Thunderbird (migrating my mailboxes from TB in Windows t TB in OS X was a doddle), OpenOffice.org, VLC, Google Earth and many, many more will help you with just about anything. As for advice, there are loads of forums, blogs and dedicated websites with all sorts of info on Apple computers out there. I have yet to find a problem that a bit of searching won't solve.

Another issue: system maintenance. I never ran into virus, malware or similar trouble while using Windows, but I did spend a lot of time waiting for my HDD to be checked, defragmented and so on. None of that on the Mac - just keep your access rights database clean, make a backup every now and then and you're golden.

I could go on, but don't want to babble... I'm sure you'll get many more opinions.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1922 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7775 times:

Now if they could just put some workstation graphics in a macbook...

User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21353 posts, RR: 54
Reply 7, posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7770 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 5):
You must remember that most of the Windows software you have won't run on OS X. That means that you'll have to obtain e.g. Microsoft Office:mac anew. You ought to factor that into the price tag.

Or you can use VMware or Parallels to continue using your Windows software if you want.

Another alternative can be iWork from Apple for not-too-complex office work. Or Open Office in one of its Mac ports if you don't want to spend money (but more time).


User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8617 posts, RR: 43
Reply 8, posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7768 times:

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 6):
Now if they could just put some workstation graphics in a macbook...

...they'd lose a sales pitch for the MacBook Pro.  



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineMingToo From Zimbabwe, joined Jun 2009, 464 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7766 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
Or you can use VMware or Parallels to continue using your Windows software if you want.

And as an aside, for anyone with a PC that fancies playing around with Linux (or just playing around generally), VM Ware is excellent and their basic VM Ware Player is free and allows you to create and run virtual PC's on your machine. It's almost spooky watching a PC boot up in a window.

http://www.vmware.com/products/player/


User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8617 posts, RR: 43
Reply 10, posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7761 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
Or you can use VMware or Parallels to continue using your Windows software if you want.

yes, that or Boot Camp - but both are solutions to problems that don't arise if you (can) use OS X software

Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
Another alternative can be iWork from Apple for not-too-complex office work. Or Open Office in one of its Mac ports if you don't want to spend money (but more time).

I've found iWork to be nicer than MS Office:mac for my simple day-to-day stuff, so I quite agree in that respect.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1922 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7709 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 8):

...they'd lose a sales pitch for the MacBook Pro.

I'm speaking of a graphics chipset (like NVIDIA quadro's) certified to operate with the major CAD platforms. Not available in mac. Thus, not really an option for me or lots and lots of other high end users.

The GeForce is fine for most applications, but isn't necessarily going to work out if I want to run SolidWorks (as one example).


User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7701 times:

Quoting runway23 (Thread starter):
My current pc is slowly dieing out and I'm semi-sick of having to replace PC's every 1.5 years.

Well that's what you get for buying the cheap stuff that's obsolete the moment you buy it.   

I'd say stick to the PC specially if you want to do any gaming. Not to mention they're MUCH easier to upgrade yourself if you feel so inclined. A core i7 with windows 7 64bit is a killer combination and will smoke macs out there for half the price.


User currently offlineRaffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1707 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7693 times:

I went from a windows desktop and laptop to a Macbook and don't regret it at all. Mac is intuitive, fast, safe and very stable.
It's not crashed yet (over 12 months!)



Happy -go- lucky kinda guy!
User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 31
Reply 14, posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7693 times:

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 3):
$900 for a new screen,

Where the hell did you get that price? Apple? $300-400 tops on ebay. Hell I just sold an entire dead 15" Macbook pro for $230.



Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
User currently offlineAKiss20 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 580 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7674 times:

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 11):
I'm speaking of a graphics chipset (like NVIDIA quadro's) certified to operate with the major CAD platforms. Not available in mac. Thus, not really an option for me or lots and lots of other high end users.

The GeForce is fine for most applications, but isn't necessarily going to work out if I want to run SolidWorks (as one example).

Not quite sure what you mean here? Many people at my school (including myself) run Solidworks on macs with no problem. For long solidworks sessions I will boot into my bootcamp partition, but for quicker stuff it will run on VMWare relatively well (a bit slower, but that is to be expected).



Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are
User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1922 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7663 times:

Quoting AKiss20 (Reply 15):
Not quite sure what you mean here? Many people at my school (including myself) run Solidworks on macs with no problem. For long solidworks sessions I will boot into my bootcamp partition, but for quicker stuff it will run on VMWare relatively well (a bit slower, but that is to be expected).

If you're using it at school then I'd guess you're not exactly a heavy user. I don't mean that as a slight either. I just mean that relative to power users. Many people operate CAD many (or all) hours of the day, every day. For years. Graphics that aren't certified may work. Or they may not. Most likely, you'll have more frequent crashes, etc. Some functionality may not work and you're unaware. That's just not acceptable if it's affecting your ability to do work.

I've run SolidWorks on computers with uncertified graphics chipsets before and had acceptable (but degraded) results. You just can't be sure what you'll get. If you have problems, you'll not get much support as SolidWorks will throw their hands in the air and tell you they don't support that hardware configuration.

Maybe someone has run it on the newest configuration of Macbook Pro and reported. I don't know.

I, personally, wouldn't risk that large a purchase on hopes that it might work OK. I want to know that it's approved. But then I run SolidWorks, Inventor, proEngineer, and Ansys. Sigh.

That's all bordering on being off topic. My original thought was that it's disappointing that Apple isn't really a realistic option in this segment of the market.

For other applications, if you want higher end hardware, I think they make nice products.


User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 7654 times:

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 14):
Where the hell did you get that price? Apple?

Apple repair.

UAL


User currently offlineJeffSFO From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 832 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 7654 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
Quoting aloges (Reply 5):
You must remember that most of the Windows software you have won't run on OS X. That means that you'll have to obtain e.g. Microsoft Office:mac anew. You ought to factor that into the price tag.

Or you can use VMware or Parallels to continue using your Windows software if you want.

  

I've had very good results running Windows XP with Parallels (didn't like VMware so much) running Adobe's Creative Suite and MS Office on my 3 year old MacBook Pro. Additionally, you can also run Windows natively on a boot partition using Bootcamp if games are a consideration. That way you can have the best of both worlds.

If you don't want to pay for Parallels or VMware, VirtualBox is a free virtualization solution from SUN/Oracle:

http://www.virtualbox.org/



Canon 5D Mark II, 5D + EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS + EF 16-35mm f/2.8 L II + Tamron AF28-75mm f/2.8
User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 31
Reply 19, posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 7646 times:

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 17):
Apple repair.

UAL

Theres your problem. Apple service and parts rates are horribly overpriced. Your best bet with an out of warranty system is to do it yourself (screen swap would take maybe 45 mins) or find a decent independent Mac shop.



Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
User currently offlinecaptaink From Mexico, joined May 2001, 5108 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 7625 times:

I am a windows hater, but I have a PC for specific reasons, but my principal OS is Ubuntu.

I say to you get it. You sound like a normal end user without any very specific needs. Everything you need you can get it from Mac OSX, but you will do it much easier, you don´t have to worry about antivirus protection, OS crashes etc. Now I think W7 is fantastic, but it is still Windows with it´s inflated, complicated and unsercure kernel. MacOSX and all all systems with UNIX like kernels are the complete opposite.

But I will be honest, I think Macs are somewhat over priced, but look at it this way. Go to a computer store and look at all the laptops around (what ugly machines), then look at the Macs, now tell me, which manufacturer makes computers of such quality? The aluminum unibody, how thin it is (and it isn´t a ´thin and light´ so you don´t take a hit in performance). I dunno I think the choice is clear. It´s been years since I owned a Mac, but as a PC user by force, I do think Macs are worth it.

So you get:

All what need from and OS, plus portability and a very nice looking machine. Win-Win I say..

P.S. I am due for a new computer soon, and I am looking at Macs again.



There is something special about planes....
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5477 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7623 times:

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 3):
The problem for PC users switching to Mac OS is the fact that Mac OS is so f'ing simple. It's so simple, it's hard. With MS you are used to going from folder to sub folder, to sub sub folder. Mac, you just go there. When you first switch, you find yourself hunting for things that are in plain site, simply because you had to hunt for them on PC.

It's great equipment, just VERY expensive.

THAT has got to be the worded 'description' of ever on the difference between PC user vs MAC user as far as switch-over is concerned.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 3):
900 for a new screen, $700 for a new 17" PC.

Okay, every watch 'The Big Bang Theory' a hilarious and well written tv show about a bunch of eggheads, one running crack on the show is 'Let's go down and make fun of 'Genuises' at then Appple/Mac store'...which is dead on accurate. Many of the 'Geniuses' are as empty as the seat-fillers' at the Oscars (meaning when someone at the Oscars goes to the bathroom, a seat filler takes their seat so that when the camera pans the auditorium, NO empty seat is ever seen)...anyway, I've seen some genuises at the Mac Store who are bonafide morons and have no business working outside a Jack-in-the-Box store.

Anyway, you can get that screen fixed for less than $200 bucks...get a Craigslist 'computer guy to do it' but have him remove the hardrive 1st and give it to you (if you must leave it for repair)! It's quite easy. He'll probably (and it's best) that you order the screen replacement online 1st and let him do the replacement work. If he's any good, he should be able to do in your home in 45 mins or less (charging about $60 bucks).

Quoting D L X (Reply 1):


Quite simply, it is the best computer I have ever owned, and I'm kicking myself that I didn't make the switch sooner.

I laugh at that because, I've warned people they'd be doing that one day, but if you look back at archived MAC discussions, I was a staunch MAC supporter..now I'm a bit skeptical. And judging by MAC forums worldwide, I might be right.


...it seems as of late, MAC has no Quality Control Dept. (if it never did, it needs to go back and hire the original schematic/logic board tech) because nowadays, it seems MAC laptops are f**king up left and right and it's ALL hardware related. Software wise, when you have a MAC running... it kicks butt like no other computer very very few software conflicts. It seems Apple has taken it's unique 'Apple owners clique' and is capitalizing on the 'niche market' that is once was... and it's growing so quickly, that it's no longer all that unique of a clique..everyone has one.

It's as if Apple has said.. 'screw QC' (let's save on some serious payroll here) and "let's just make the crap, ship it..and if people have a problem, let them run to the forum boards seeking answers. Where we'll plant a tech 'acting' as a board user - who arrives just in time with the perfect solution to solve the problem (that's only after 1000 complaint calls have been received about the same issue) other than that they could careless about you and your 'out-of-warranty' computer. Apple's Customer Care has sucked since the late 1990s anyway (when they were overwhelmed).

Now of course, the 'above' only applies after your ™Apple Care (warranty) has expired. As long as you're under Apple Care...you're okay. But afterwards..you're screwed if you don't know how to gut a computer and fix it yourself, or have a handy 'tech bud'.


BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 2673 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 7605 times:

I'd say go for it. Right now, I'm waiting for some cash to fall into my pocket so I can buy a MacBook. I have a Dell Inspiron (going for its 5th year with me) and, though it has not brought any problems other than one or two virus infections, I think it's time I move on. I also bought a desktop for heavy programs that my laptop can't handle without crashing, but that one (1 year old last month) will be basically for programming and other simulations. I'd also like for my desktop to be my Flight Simulator computer: NVIdia graphics card, and a 2.2 GHz processor. Compare that with a 1.2 GHz and a Dell video card...  

Anyway, regarding Mac, the only issue I have is the price and not being able to fully migrate. But I have to admit that having a computer that is literally top of the line makes it worth the price.



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently onlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8044 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 7594 times:

SInce I switched to Macs years ago it should not be hard to guess my opinion. But my was initially based on customer service and malware.

On the malware side, I traveled overseas on business when even Aunt Millie was writing malware and getting away with it. When you're halfway around the world you don't even want to think of malware problems. That got me into a PowerBook for travel only.

First trip - TSA was in their first week and the fool on the x-ray machine dropped my new computer on the floor at LAX. Reseated the keyboard and kept going on the trip. Tough notebooks in those days and tougher today.

On the customer side I went through a misery with my office PC. Had to spend a week re-indtalling XP with no success. That was it for me. I had spend a fortune on a Dell with an extended warranty and got a script reader in India. Apple had the top customer service from Consumers Reports (odd to say that these days) and I haven't looked back.

I do strongly recommended the AppleCare extended warranty. It covers you for 3 years and lets you call for various types of help and questions for no charge during that 3 year period. The warranty is also good world wide for the notebooks - very handy.

Today I have the 13" MBP and love it. I sometimes think of moving to an iMac with a huge screen and and iPad for the lap. But that's because the two grandkids love my MBP and the iPad would be excellent for them.

Finally, as others have said, go spend time at the Apple Store for a full hands on. You might even look at iWork as an Office replacement.


User currently offlineAeroflot777 From Russia, joined Mar 2004, 2993 posts, RR: 27
Reply 24, posted (3 years 9 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 7589 times:

Go with the Mac. Easiest switch ever... and you'll stick to it. It's well worth the premium you pay.

25 Post contains images MingToo : It can also be worth getting a second power supply for the laptop just so you don't have to keep unplugging it from the wall and putting it into your
26 MingToo : As an aside, for anyone who uses PC's and MS software and also has their own company that is reasonably IT related, the MS action pack is an excellent
27 Elite : Owner of a 27" iMac and a 17" MacBook Pro here, and I used to use a PC all the way up till 2007. From my experience, more people like to use a MacBook
28 Aesma : It's not because it's a PC that it's dying, it's because it's a crappy PC (or you're out of luck, everything can fail, even a product with an apple on
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