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Polygamist Marriages  
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7814 posts, RR: 5
Posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1898 times:

After watching a bit of Big Love recently I can't see what the problem is with polygmy, if all the parties are entering into the marriage with eyes wide open why should society have a problem, whatever happened to free choice. Not that I want two wives or to share my wife with another bloke, not my thing but I don't see why people should be barred from that choice.

I like this quote from Mark Twain.

Twain asked to cite a Scripture reference that forbids polygamy, and he responds with, "No man can serve two masters."

36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8467 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1877 times:

Mark Twain was right! After 41 years of marriage (to one woman) I fully understand that there is no way more than one would work for most people. Besides the relationship with my wife there is also demands from kids, and then grandkids.

The only way I can see one guy having two wives at a successful level is if that guy is the third person in the relationship.


User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10331 posts, RR: 26
Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1857 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 1):
The only way I can see one guy having two wives at a successful level is if that guy is the third person in the relationship.

I certainly could never see myself having two wives, or being one of two husbands.

But in my opinion, I'm have no basis to tell other people that they can't either.



How can I be an admiral without my cap??!
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1845 times:

Basically, why society has a problem with it is because Polygamy goes a bit further than it was intended to be. Having more than one wife turns into marrying adults with minors which is a huge no-no. (Polygamy and bigamy at the same time). That is how I understand it, regardless if the above is right or wrong info.


A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinebhill From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1020 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1836 times:

It would seem to me that it would be easier to keep track of the genetic offsprings in a monogmous relationship...


Carpe Pices
User currently offlineTugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5770 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1832 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Thread starter):
After watching a bit of Big Love recently I can't see what the problem is with polygmy, if all the parties are entering into the marriage with eyes wide open why should society have a problem, whatever happened to free choice. Not that I want two wives or to share my wife with another bloke, not my thing but I don't see why people should be barred from that choice.

I like this quote from Mark Twain.

Twain asked to cite a Scripture reference that forbids polygamy, and he responds with, "No man can serve two masters."

At its core, polygamy does not create a stable society for humans. It creates inequities and inequalities that are ultimately harmful to the society that they exist within. While in theory you could have balanced Wife headed as well as the standard Husband headed unions, that does not normally happen (and does not happen in nature either) so you end up with boys that must be cast out as there are no mates for them and they are a threat to the older established males.

Additionally, I have noted that they are not a "union of equals", there are always the "first wife" and a "second" and the rest follow along after that.

Another issue is how would divorce be handled since you have some many disparate issues and people involved?

And I do agree with Mark Twain!

Just my two cents.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7978 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1821 times:

A big part is legal and insurance issues. A guy might want 7 wives, that's just his thing, but what would stop some rich guy with good benefits to marry a wife, his friend, his friend's wife, another friend, etc, claiming "love" but really just trying to rip off the system?


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinefxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7359 posts, RR: 85
Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1813 times:
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Quoting KiwiRob (Thread starter):
After watching a bit of Big Love recently

This is on my Netflix list. Worth keeping on there?


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7814 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1768 times:

I think it's worth a watch.

User currently offlineDesertJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7810 posts, RR: 16
Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1729 times:

Quoting fxramper (Reply 7):
Quoting KiwiRob (Thread starter):
After watching a bit of Big Love recently

This is on my Netflix list. Worth keeping on there?

I liked the first three seasons, apparently the 4th (didn't get a chance to see) was a bit of a dud.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 5):
At its core, polygamy does not create a stable society for humans. It creates inequities and inequalities that are ultimately harmful to the society that they exist within. While in theory you could have balanced Wife headed as well as the standard Husband headed unions, that does not normally happen (and does not happen in nature either) so you end up with boys that must be cast out as there are no mates for them and they are a threat to the older established males.

Additionally, I have noted that they are not a "union of equals", there are always the "first wife" and a "second" and the rest follow along after that.

What he said.



Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 6117 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1710 times:

I suggest you do research on:

  • Warren Jeffs
  • Colorado City, AZ
  • Hilldale, UT
  • The FLDS


Also, related to the above, but not as easy to search for:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_boys_(polygamy)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YFZ_Ranch

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolyn_Jessop
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_...olyn_Jessop_and_Laura_Palmer_book)



Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20334 posts, RR: 59
Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1710 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 6):
A big part is legal and insurance issues. A guy might want 7 wives, that's just his thing, but what would stop some rich guy with good benefits to marry a wife, his friend, his friend's wife, another friend, etc, claiming "love" but really just trying to rip off the system?

That's one big problem. What's a "divorce," who gets child support and custody and from whom and blah blah blah. Total mare's nest.

Second big problem is that polygamy does not and cannot work on the large scale because you will quickly run into a shortage of women. This is why even in "polygamous cultures" very few men actually do have multiple wives.

Ultimately, I have no problem with what other consenting adults want to do in their own homes with their own lives (as long as they are, in fact, consenting adults). This is why I support interracial, interreligious, and same-sex marriage.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 3):
Basically, why society has a problem with it is because Polygamy goes a bit further than it was intended to be. Having more than one wife turns into marrying adults with minors which is a huge no-no. (Polygamy and bigamy at the same time). That is how I understand it, regardless if the above is right or wrong info.

That's fine. Nobody here is supporting child molestation. Polygamy does not imply child molestation. However, I firmly support the prosecution of those who use religion as an excuse for child molestation to the fullest extent of the law. They are two separate issues.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1706 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
However, I firmly support the prosecution of those who use religion as an excuse for child molestation to the fullest extent of the law.

I agree with you on that. I don't understand why they use children for their "crusade".

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
They are two separate issues.

That is what I thought.....

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 10):
Warren Jeffs

What's up with this dude now. He got his convictions overturned by the Utah Supreme Court or something???



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 6117 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1686 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
What's up with this dude now. He got his convictions overturned by the Utah Supreme Court or something???

Apparently, it was a technicality. They are going to retry him again once he's done with TX (If TX lets him go.) As I understand it, even when he does go on trial again here, he's not going to get any relief.



Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 14, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1678 times:

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 13):
Apparently, it was a technicality.

Wrong jury instructions. How can someone give the jury wrong instructions? WTF?!

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 13):
They are going to retry him again once he's done with TX (If TX lets him go.)

I think either Arizona threw out their case or Utah threw theirs out, I forgot who did. I am leaning towards Arizona....

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 13):
As I understand it, even when he does go on trial again here, he's not going to get any relief.

I think that dude made his own bed, he isn't gonna get any relief in this lifetime......



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 6117 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1641 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 14):
I think either Arizona threw out their case or Utah threw theirs out, I forgot who did. I am leaning towards Arizona....

Since Utah had already convicted him, I'd lean towards AZ as well.



Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25688 posts, RR: 85
Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1589 times:
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Christians frequently tell me that the Bible is the unedited manuscript of God, and as frequently tell me that marriage is a religious institution ordained by God.

So where do all those polygamous patriarchs fit into this? Or King Solomon, with all his wives and concubines?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1568 times:

90% of all animals out there have multiple mates throughout their lifetimes. The earliest homo sapiens were certainly not monogamous all the time. It only makes sense from a genetic and evolutionary standpoint to spread your genes (assuming they're good ones) through as many suitable mates you can find.

That being said, and fast forwarding to current times, if a couple decide to be polygamous, then good for them. I don't see anything wrong with it, it won't affect me in any way shape or form.

Would I ever have more than one wife? NO. Dealing with one bitch is hard enough already   

Quoting mariner (Reply 16):

So where do all those polygamous patriarchs fit into this? Or King Solomon, with all his wives and concubines?

Oh don't worry, somebody is writing a newer version of the bible as we speak  


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20334 posts, RR: 59
Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1565 times:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 17):

Oh don't worry, somebody is writing a newer version of the bible as we speak

Been done. His name was Joseph Smith. Creative writer he was. And oh, what a sex drive the man had!


User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 19, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1519 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 1):
The only way I can see one guy having two wives at a successful level is if that guy is the third person in the relationship.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
Second big problem is that polygamy does not and cannot work on the large scale because you will quickly run into a shortage of women. This is why even in "polygamous cultures" very few men actually do have multiple wives.

Who said polygamy means one male with several wives ? What about one woman with several husbands ? (Yes, I know it's usually called polyandry...)

In a practical sense I can't really see it working, for many of the reasons already stated. And the history of it, at least in North America, seems to involve marrying very young girls to older men. This is usually viewed as child abuse -- and I believe rightly so since most of the girls aren't really freely entering into the relationship. Probably more evidence of the inability of most men to view women as other than property.

For me, serial monogamy has worked pretty well.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1449 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
Been done. His name was Joseph Smith. Creative writer he was. And oh, what a sex drive the man had!

          


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20334 posts, RR: 59
Reply 21, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1434 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 19):

In a practical sense I can't really see it working, for many of the reasons already stated. And the history of it, at least in North America, seems to involve marrying very young girls to older men. This is usually viewed as child abuse -- and I believe rightly so since most of the girls aren't really freely entering into the relationship. Probably more evidence of the inability of most men to view women as other than property.

That's one model, certainly. The hyperreligious folks tend to do the kiddie diddling, ironically enough.

The liberals here in San Francisco have a different model, which is polyamory. It's a more egalitarian set-up in which a couple basically has an open relationship and date other people. Sometimes, there are three-way or even four-way "couples" (for lack of a better word) of various gender mixes. And none of them would dare molest a child. None of them would dare cast someone out of a community with no resources. On other words, they aren't evil, they're just horny. Or, as my dear friend from college says, (she's a Ph.D. molecular biologist with a leather fetish) "I'm a poly bi switch. I'm not confused, I'm just greedy!"

Either way, as long as everyone involved is a consenting adult and nobody is being permanently injured, I have no problem with it. It's not my job to judge.

The problem is that with the FLDS Church, not everyone is a consenting adult AND there are people being permanently injured.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14139 posts, RR: 62
Reply 22, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1410 times:

Well, there is an ethnic group in Nepal, where there exists a shortage of women. There usually a woman marries a guy and his brothers as well.

Jan


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8974 posts, RR: 39
Reply 23, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1407 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 6):
A big part is legal and insurance issues. A guy might want 7 wives, that's just his thing, but what would stop some rich guy with good benefits to marry a wife, his friend, his friend's wife, another friend, etc, claiming "love" but really just trying to rip off the system?

A contractual clause? Not sure it has to be more complicated than that.

As for women, I doubt there will be a shortage. I am not aware of any historical evidence that indicates this (there is to the contrary, however: there are more women than man in this planet), but what's even worse is to think we somehow have the right to tell another person what s/he can or cannot do. To add insult to injury this argument implies that every person (whether man or woman) has a right to a partner. Are you kidding me? If I don't find a partner, can I go to the government, complain, and have them me assign a partner?   



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8974 posts, RR: 39
Reply 24, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1403 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 22):

Do you know what they are called? I am looking but can't find who they are.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
25 MD11Engineer : I forgot. I just remember that I watched a documentary about them years ago on German TV. My second wife came from a country where polygamy is legal
26 AirframeAS : Utah convicted him, but the Utah Supreme Court threw out the conviction because of wrong instructions given to the jury. Arizona has decided not to p
27 zrs70 : Thumbs up to the sanctity of Biblical marriage, which allows polygamy!
28 DocLightning : That's the opposite of polygamy. It's polyANDRY. And that's the exact pattern in almost every society that does it: all the husbands are related.
29 Goldenshield : Correct; however, AZ dropped the pursuit PRIOR to UT reversing the decision. My post still stands.
30 AirframeAS : No, it doesn't. If Utah reversed his conviction, he is then - by law - not convicted. Utah has to start over again.
31 Derico : I hope Argentina makes them legal. Better yet, I hope the state gets out of the business of marriage altogether. Marriage is a religious and cultural
32 Goldenshield : Okay, let's get this straight: AZ threw out their case before UT reverse the decision. Since I was speaking in PAST TENSE, AND that AZ threw out the
33 Post contains images FlyDeltaJets87 : If you had multiple wives, maybe you would come home and find one of them in a good mood. I think one issue is from the legal standpoint. The governme
34 AirframeAS : That's fine. But what I was saying is that Jeffs is no longer classified as a "convicted felon "anymore since Utah overturned his conviction. That's
35 Goldenshield : We established this back in replies 12 & 13.
36 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : And when they get on the same cycle you'll come home to many angry women every so often!
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