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What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan  
User currently offlineVenus6971 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1437 posts, RR: 1
Posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3805 times:

I wonder if any of you where affected by your stance on the war in Afghanistan after seeing the front page of Time Mag with the 18year old girl on the cover. She had her nose and ears cut off by her husband under orders by a Taliban commander because she ran away from abusive inlaws. So if the US makes a deal with the Taliban and cuts and runs how many of you will feel fine when most Afghan women who spoke out will be raped or killed.





http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2007238,00.html


I would help you but it is not in the contract
197 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 6726 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3802 times:

There are atrocities all over, more so in wars, today principle goes as far as the next election where citizens really get to express their opinions. The conspiracy is that this picture is put on the front page immediately after the leak of all those military documents, coincidence?

Back on topic, how long does the US intend to stay in Afghanistan, one can expect the EU and other allies to leave ASAP, who exactly has been pushing the negotiations with the Taliban and is there another choice? No one wants to spend the time and the effort to make another choice viable, so expect the Taliban to be back in power in another 5 to 10 years. The strategy now is to convince us not the Afghan people that the exit strategy is the right one, now its all PR and someone at the Times is pushing another agenda.

Interesting times ahead.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15443 posts, RR: 26
Reply 2, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3800 times:

Afghanistan goes back to what it was. A place where terrorists were safe, women aren't, he with the most guns rules.


Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 2664 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3791 times:

The thing is that with the Iraq War, Afghanistan lost importance. Had the Iraq War never happened, we might have seen a different scenario. But a war cannot last forever and right now, when billions if not trillions of dollars have been spent for funding of the war, it's time to call it quits. This is just another Vietnam. A temporary truce with insurgents until the fragile Karzai government falls under anarchy once again.

Unless the American public is willing to support this new government and to not repeat what happened during the Soviet withdrawal, we'll most likely see a return of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. What's worse is that those people, since the fall of the monarchy, have never seen a stable government. A monarchy, a republic, a socialist republic, a communist repressive republic, anarchy, Taliban, interim government, insurgency...Until Afghans are willing to cooperate and learn that they have nothing to fear from our troops, they risk falling into the same situation, though many have admitted that while the Taliban is harsh with sharia law, they prefer it since it brought stability...but at the cost of a horrible human rights record and the harbor for terrorism.



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlinetk747 From Australia, joined Sep 2009, 339 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3761 times:

The Taliban were committing these atrocities when they were being funded by the USA anyway and at that stage the Americans didn't care about "the lives of the Afghans" or they way women were being treated. Its a little late to start caring now.

User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39478 posts, RR: 75
Reply 5, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3754 times:

Quoting tk747 (Reply 4):
The Taliban were committing these atrocities when they were being funded by the USA anyway and at that stage the Americans didn't care about "the lives of the Afghans" or they way women were being treated. Its a little late to start caring now.

Sad but true.
It's a crying shame some folks in America praise Ronald Reagan who was supporting and funding these terrorist.

Quoting Venus6971 (Thread starter):
I wonder if any of you where affected by your stance on the war in Afghanistan after seeing the front page of Time Mag with the 18year old girl on the cover. She had her nose and ears cut off by her husband under orders by a Taliban commander because she ran away from abusive inlaws. So if the US makes a deal with the Taliban and cuts and runs how many of you will feel fine when most Afghan women who spoke out will be raped or killed.

Afghanistan has and always will be a primitive society where women are mutilated, raped, killed and young boys are trained to fight & kill.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently onlineafterburner From Indonesia, joined Jun 2005, 1201 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3744 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
Afghanistan has and always will be a primitive society where women are mutilated, raped, killed and young boys are trained to fight & kill.

And you don't have any hope at all that one day they will change?


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39478 posts, RR: 75
Reply 7, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3737 times:

Quoting afterburner (Reply 6):
And you don't have any hope at all that one day they will change?

Oh absolutely!
I'd love to see a peaceful Afghanistan.
As someone who loves to travel and a geography buff, I'd like to visit their forbidden terrain of steep, jagged edge mountains and caves. I think the area is fascinating geographically.
Just knowing the history of this country and how ruthless things are there, it's best for me to stay far away from this place.
My hope is that there may be a revolution there from within against these terrorist.
I don't see anything remotely close to any such thing happening there.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 8, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3717 times:

Quoting Venus6971 (Thread starter):
I wonder if any of you where affected by your stance on the war in Afghanistan after seeing the front page of Time Mag with the 18year old girl on the cover.

First off, that photo is most shocking and displays the cruelty of what the Taliban can and will do to you. That being said, even when the Americans pull out, the Taliban are already on the rise again. In Germany, people are already screaming for the Bundeswehr to get out, and I'm sure that after the Iraq war, there are also many Americans who want the soldiers out. I personally support our mission in Afghanistan, but with recent incidents involving our Army in Kunduz province, and the increasing lack of support from the public opinion, I fear that Germany's mission in Afghanistan is becoming more and more futile. And if we all pull out, the Taliban will take advantage of that, overthrow the Karzai government (which is a weak government and wants to even pardon the Taliban anyway) and become a place of safe harbour for terrorists. Then those men and women who died in Afghanistan will have died for nothing, and that's one thing I fear the most.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15443 posts, RR: 26
Reply 9, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3712 times:

Quoting tk747 (Reply 4):
The Taliban were committing these atrocities when they were being funded by the USA anyway and at that stage the Americans didn't care about "the lives of the Afghans" or they way women were being treated. Its a little late to start caring now.

   The US supported the Mujahideen, which were diverse groups of Muslim fighters all fighting the Soviets. After the Russians left, Afghanistan was left with a bunch of warlords. The Taliban began when one of the fighters, Mullah Omar, began taking over many of the other warlords beginning in the mid 1990s until he basically controlled all of Afghanistan.

There were some other ex-Mujahideen who were not defeated by Omar's Taliban and continued fighting them in regions of Afghanistan.

Now fast forward to fall of 2001. The Americans know that the Taliban is working with and harboring Al Qaeda terrorists responsible for 9/11. The CIA had maintained its contacts within the Afghani resistance and within weeks of 9/11 CIA agents with money and supplies were back with the Northern Alliance fighters in Afghanistan. Northern Alliance continued fighting the Taliban and by the end of November the Taliban had been removed from power, with only a few hundred special forces operatives from the coalition.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
It's a crying shame some folks in America praise Ronald Reagan who was supporting and funding these terrorist.

Sometimes one must befriend bad people to defeat worse people. A few women getting hacked up was a small price to pay for kicking the Soviets out of Afghanistan. It is pretty bad to say, but then again, it is a pretty bad situation. Either way the Soviet war in Afghanistan and takedown of the Taliban in 2001 stand as great coups and testaments to the power of the third option.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39478 posts, RR: 75
Reply 10, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3710 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
Sometimes one must befriend bad people to defeat worse people. A few women getting hacked up was a small price to pay for kicking the Soviets out of Afghanistan. It is pretty bad to say, but then again, it is a pretty bad situation. Either way the Soviet war in Afghanistan and takedown of the Taliban in 2001 stand as great coups and testaments to the power of the third option.

I'd say the Taliban is far worse than the Soviets.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15443 posts, RR: 26
Reply 11, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3698 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 10):
I'd say the Taliban is far worse than the Soviets.

Well, now, yeah. But back then the Soviets were a far bigger threat, but we took care of it.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39478 posts, RR: 75
Reply 12, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3696 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):
Well, now, yeah. But back then the Soviets were a far bigger threat, but we took care of it.

....and now Islamic terrorist are an even BIGGER threat.


Thanks a lot Ronnie!   



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineArrow From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 2675 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3697 times:
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Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
Sometimes one must befriend bad people to defeat worse people. A few women getting hacked up was a small price to pay for kicking the Soviets out of Afghanistan.

You're joking, right? No, I guess you're not. Don't get me wrong, the soviets shouldn't have been there (and neither should we), but can you explain to me why the Soviet occupation is so much worse than the Taliban? Did the Russians kill women for cheating on their husbands, holding hands with their boyfriends, or keep them from getting an education? And could you say that to the families of the few women who got hacked up. Would you accept hacking up a few American women to get rid of the Soviets? I mean, it would be a small price to pay, wouldn't it?



Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 14, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3690 times:

Quoting Arrow (Reply 13):
Don't get me wrong, the soviets shouldn't have been there (and neither should we), but can you explain to me why the Soviet occupation is so much worse than the Taliban? Did the Russians kill women for cheating on their husbands, holding hands with their boyfriends, or keep them from getting an education? And could you say that to the families of the few women who got hacked up. Would you accept hacking up a few American women to get rid of the Soviets? I mean, it would be a small price to pay, wouldn't it?

Three words: The Cold War. The Americans at that time would support anyone and anything fighting against the Soviet Union. Now, that doesn't make things right, but supporting the Mujahadeen during the Afghanistan war was a logical consequence of the Cold War. A similar logic can be used e.g. for the US funding for Osama Bin Laden at the time of Operation Dessert Storm. The real question is whether they knew that this support could one day bite them in the ass.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15443 posts, RR: 26
Reply 15, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3687 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 12):
....and now Islamic terrorist are an even BIGGER threat.

On 9/11 the Islamic terrorists killed some 3,000 people. The Soviets could have killed many times that many even faster.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 13):
but can you explain to me why the Soviet occupation is so much worse than the Taliban? Did the Russians kill women for cheating on their husbands, holding hands with their boyfriends, or keep them from getting an education? And could you say that to the families of the few women who got hacked up.

You're missing the point. It isn't what's best for Afghanistan, it's what's best for America. That sounds bad too, but that's the way it is.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 13):
Would you accept hacking up a few American women to get rid of the Soviets?

Well, you fight over there by proxy to help make sure that doesn't happen. A dead American is a tragedy. A dead Korean / Vietnamese / Afghani is a statistic.

The world really isn't a nice place is it?



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinetu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1103 posts, RR: 17
Reply 16, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3682 times:

If the US pulls out of Afghanistan, the exact same thing will happened as after we pulled out of there 21 years ago. The country will collapse into turmoil. Like it or not, but the USA in Afghanistan (now) = the Soviet Union in Afghanistan (1980's). Say whatever you want but, we were either both invaders or liberators, whichever way we look at it. We were both the same. One was not an invader and the other a liberator, or the other way around.


I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlinetk747 From Australia, joined Sep 2009, 339 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3677 times:

Quoting tu204 (Reply 16):

Exactly.

I would rather a secular dictatorship (soviet) then an Islamic one (mujahadeen). Clearly it was not a smart move on the USA's behalf to support the very people who despise them.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15443 posts, RR: 26
Reply 18, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3669 times:

Quoting tk747 (Reply 17):
I would rather a secular dictatorship (soviet) then an Islamic one (mujahadeen)

Well, American leadership disagreed and took action accordingly.

Quoting tk747 (Reply 17):
Clearly it was not a smart move on the USA's behalf to support the very people who despise them.

The Soviets didn't care much for America either.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinetk747 From Australia, joined Sep 2009, 339 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3665 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 18):


The Soviets didn't murder girls for attending girls school either, anyway thats not the point, the point is that no country should be occupying another. America will support any government no matter how brutal it is as long as it advances America's interests and then people wonder why the USA is hated.

[Edited 2010-08-04 22:57:14]

User currently offlineMingToo From Zimbabwe, joined Jun 2009, 464 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3661 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
Sad but true.
It's a crying shame some folks in America praise Ronald Reagan who was supporting and funding these terrorist.

The UK was of course in there funding and training them as well.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
Afghanistan has and always will be a primitive society where women are mutilated, raped, killed and young boys are trained to fight & kill.

Not exactly true. It was a considerably better place under the communist aligned government in the 1970s. Women were educated and had far better lives.

There were of course some Islamic fundamentals who didn't like that and wanted to overthrow that government and install an Islamic one. But of course communism was the main 'enemy' back then and so the US government decide to help out the Islamic extremists to goad the Soviets into a war. This happened BEFORE the Soviets entered Afghanistan. It wasn't done to help them remove the Soviets, it was done to drag the Soviets into the conflict.

This has been admitted by Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BRZ110A.html

Plus the Soviets did not invade. The communist Afghanistan government asked them to assist against the Islamic extremists who were trying to topple the government.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
The US supported the Mujahideen, which were diverse groups of Muslim fighters all fighting the Soviets. After the Russians left, Afghanistan was left with a bunch of warlords. The Taliban began when one of the fighters, Mullah Omar, began taking over many of the other warlords beginning in the mid 1990s until he basically controlled all of Afghanistan.

See above.


User currently offlinetk747 From Australia, joined Sep 2009, 339 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3659 times:

Quoting MingToo (Reply 20):

I think thats the fundamental difference between the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan and the American occupation. The Soviets were asked by the government to assist whereas no one asked the Americans to come.


User currently offlineYellowstone From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3071 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3652 times:

Quoting Venus6971 (Thread starter):
I wonder if any of you where affected by your stance on the war in Afghanistan after seeing the front page of Time Mag with the 18year old girl on the cover. She had her nose and ears cut off by her husband under orders by a Taliban commander because she ran away from abusive inlaws. So if the US makes a deal with the Taliban and cuts and runs how many of you will feel fine when most Afghan women who spoke out will be raped or killed.

So women are getting brutalized by the Taliban while the US is in Afghanistan, and this is proof that... the US should stay in Afghanistan. Huh?



Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
User currently offlinetu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1103 posts, RR: 17
Reply 23, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3647 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 18):
Well, American leadership disagreed and took action accordingly.

Remind me how that went?

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 22):
So women are getting brutalized by the Taliban while the US is in Afghanistan, and this is proof that... the US should stay in Afghanistan. Huh?

It proves that nomatter what you do you are screwed and so are the Afghanis.



I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 24, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3636 times:

Quoting tk747 (Reply 21):
Quoting MingToo (Reply 20):

I think thats the fundamental difference between the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan and the American occupation. The Soviets were asked by the government to assist whereas no one asked the Americans to come.

Who was the comic who made the pastiche - "I vas invited"? But it IS a fair point.

Quoting tk747 (Reply 17):
Quoting tu204 (Reply 16):

Exactly.

I would rather a secular dictatorship (soviet) then an Islamic one (mujahadeen). Clearly it was not a smart move on the USA's behalf to support the very people who despise them.

Most measures of the society would suggest the former did a heck of a lot better than the latter. And an empty slogan such as "The Cold War" was not that great an excuse at the time and 30 years later looks like gross myopia, not to mention a tad of cutting off your own nose to spite your face to get back on topic!!


25 BMI727 : Well, yeah. That doesn't change the fact that the US didn't create the Taliban. But maybe I should start giving Jimmy Carter more credit. And if you
26 Post contains links MingToo : Even the guy who 'started' the Cold War with his 'telegram from Moscow' realised shortly after that the Soviets were not the expansionist threat that
27 Baroque : No, but the US certainly set up all the preconditions and walked away. Mind one positive, those denigrating the role of the US, probably cannot claim
28 BMI727 : Only because we liked them better than the left wingers. If you fight against people I don't like, I can look past a lot of faults. Well, it does. Ou
29 Post contains images Superfly : ....and expect that number to climb. Let's not forget Ft. Hood, Pan Am 103, London subways, Church bombing in Nigeria, Madrid, Mumbai, Moscow, southe
30 tu204 : I, looking from the other side, can tell you that we never actually had any intention of fighting a direct war with the United States, I am sure that
31 MingToo : You are at least honest in your viewpoints on this matter. I have less of a problem with that than those who know what the deal is but try to wrap it
32 BMI727 : Up until the 1970s, that would be right. But during the last decade and change of the Cold War, a war, completely conventional or otherwise, was an o
33 BMI727 : No there wasn't, and I'm sure that scholars will get a lot of mileage discussing why. The upshot of all this is that the reason the US fought in Viet
34 tu204 : You miss my point: The USSR was never a military threat to the US, only proxy wars here and there. The Islamic Fundementalists that you created ARE a
35 propilot83 : Gentlemen, America did not choose to go to war in Afghanistan against the cowardly rats of the Taliban and Al Qaeda. It was a war of necessity, and a
36 MingToo : And there is a price to pay for protecting those interests. 9/11 is part of that price. If the world had been as globally connected 100 years ago Bri
37 Superfly : Knowingly giving guns to people to people that don't like you? How stupid is that? Umm, our servicemen & women in Afghanistan today would strongl
38 BMI727 : They were a military threat. As far as the proxy wars here and there, well that is the beauty of having nuclear weapons. Actually, by the 1980s, the
39 MadameConcorde : What Happens If The US Leaves Afghanistan? Let India take care of it. They are a very strong power, with a very strong army, good defence forces, even
40 Superfly : Not true. The mujahadeen/taliban hated the Soviets just as much as they hated us or anyone who is not an Islamic radical. You're missing the point. T
41 Post contains images Baroque : And the laugh is that if the US thinks that Russia is gone, they will get a big surprise. By and large Russia outguns the US in resources and it will
42 tu204 : I doubt that they are stupid enough to go in there after two superpowers went in for 10 years each and did not get too far. This would have only happ
43 BMI727 : ...and America didn't. That's winning. I never said it couldn't, but that's why we got to make sure that doesn't happen. They're already on their way
44 MingToo : And neither is any different from the US pushing it's agenda onto other countries for the benefit of US corporations.
45 Post contains links MingToo : An interesting perspective on freedom and democracy from some St Petersburg residents at a party (from a BBC programme by Jonathon Dimbleby a UK polit
46 Baroque : Really. I wonder what the limits might be in that case. Actually, phrasing it as "giving guns to the Afghanis" suggests you completely miss the more
47 Post contains images Superfly : No, the Soviet Union would have fallen regardless of the arms race. No argument there. So where did a lot of their nukes and other weapons go? Most l
48 Yellowstone : Fundamentally incorrect, IMHO. The US was not attacked by Afghanistan, we were attacked by radical Muslim eejits who thought their sky daddy wanted t
49 BMI727 : In that case, having Americans pulling the trigger would have been too far for sure. Actually the massive defense spending was part of what precipita
50 MingToo : No, I'm saying that the US does not 'open business markets' or spread 'democracy'. It opens other countries markets up for US companies to enter thos
51 Yellowstone : Agreed, but the worst case scenario is also more likely now than under the Cold War.
52 Baroque : Sad but true. Between the mad fringe from Saudi Arabia and the Moslem B from Egypt, what a cocktail to let lose, even encourage.
53 Post contains links MingToo : Washington -- President Bush met with Saudi King Abdullah to celebrate 75 years of diplomatic relations and announce a new agreement pledging U.S. su
54 BMI727 : This means that the US now has a great interest in keeping Saudi Arabia stable. Now it will probably be if you keep the Sauds in power, you can keep
55 Post contains images Superfly : So the answer to my question is "yes". Islamic crusaders are equally as bad as American capitalist in your eyes. I knew it wouldn't be hard to get yo
56 MingToo : You mean great interest in keeping them as a dictatorship. One that takes most of the wealth for themselves and then spends it on private 747-800's a
57 BMI727 : Well regime change with nuclear materials involved can get messy. I don't trust the Saudis with nuclear anything at this point. Chances are they won'
58 par13del : Well that means nations need to cut ties to Dubai, Saudia Arabia, most of the Middle East who have Muslim religions, India, Pakistan, all these count
59 MingToo : Well it is tough to insist on a one-way trade agreement even if you have the rulers of another country in your pocket. Far more so when you don't and
60 Post contains images par13del : So you're implying that the US is a benevolent dictator, controlling the rulers but allowing the population freedom How do you then explain the UK, F
61 MD11Engineer : The US didn´t create the Taliban directly, but the US first armed all the various warlords and bandits (who at first fought the Soviets and later ea
62 par13del : Suggest you take a closer look at the Kingdom, if the Royals fall the Islamic Fundamentalist who are only controlled by the massive might of the mili
63 MD11Engineer : What I´ll state now is my personal opinion (which unfortunately is not being shared by many of my compatriots): At the moment Europe and large parts
64 par13del : MD11Engineer the problem is big, you do highlight a few of them, isolationism could be argued, however, when mentioned in Europe we get the "No one ha
65 Baroque : Reminds me of the common attitude to sporting teams. All we are interested in is winning. We won, we won, Nah nah nah. That is behaviour ill-becoming
66 Arrow : No, it's because this thread is about Afghanistan, the Taliban, and what happens if the US pulls out. All those other countries you named do those th
67 Post contains images Superfly : Well said. You only hear that from the Reagan-loving right-wing folks.
68 BMI727 : And that's why it's a really bad idea to be helping them play around with uranium. And now there really can't be since there is nuclear material hang
69 einsteinboricua : Though at that time they didn't despise them, it was clearly a stupid move. News flash: we didn't go to Afghanistan to liberate the Afghans, but to c
70 BarfBag : India does not belong in that list.
71 MD11Engineer : The Allies also did not conquer and occupy Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan to liberate the locals. They went in to defeat two truly horrible regimes
72 MingToo : Indeed. In fact, I'm trying to remember any instance of the USSR actually trying to take over another part of the world. They certainly supported for
73 Post contains links MD11Engineer : While it is clearly against Indian law (and I hope that the perpetrators will be punushed with the full extend of Indian law), killings of young peop
74 par13del : The US does not need to worry about providing them with nuclear power, there are usually too many strings attached, Europe would be a better provider
75 Post contains images Baroque : Occupation was a much over-rated passtime. The recovery of Germany and Japan have left a wonderful rose tinted view of how those occupations went. Th
76 einsteinboricua : You guys should read Khaled Hosseini's novels. They bring a lot of in-depth look to Afghanistan even if the plots are fictional. To quote a part of Th
77 Baroque : That was Blair's greatest sin, not listening to the FO who surely must have told him much this line. Not one to forgive Bush too much, but there Blai
78 MD11Engineer : Ok, now we leave Afghanistan to it´s fate (revenge by the Taliban and certain massacres). Will we give every Afghan, who put his faith in us asylum i
79 DocLightning : Um... no it wasn't just a side-effect. Germany and Japan didn't just bootstrap themselves back up. After WWI, which devastated Germany, they were lef
80 MD11Engineer : Well, there existed the Morgenthau plan as well, to completely de-industrialise Germany and turn it into a basic agrarian country. If I were a GI inv
81 Mortyman : Yep, well said ! Unfortunetly the war in Afghanistan has been a total waste of time, money, effort and blood by the US, EU and NATO. We have'nt reall
82 Post contains links MingToo : I've not heard any left-wing people in Europe being 'shocked' at hunting down Taliban leaders. I'd say the issue is more exactly who we are fighting
83 Post contains images BMI727 : That's pure revisionist history at best. We're all working with 20/20 hindsight here. During any of the first four decades and change after WWII if y
84 Post contains links and images MD11Engineer : Obviouly the US concentrated most on getting the support from the Tajik dominated Northern Alliance, since Mullah Omar´s Taliban have been acting mor
85 LTU932 : I haven't met such people either, but if there's anyone in Germany making such an outcry, it's definitely Die Linke, the party that ruled over East G
86 MD11Engineer : Well, read the "Spiegel" of two weeks ago, after the Wikileaks publications, and the letters to the editor the following week. Add to it some guest co
87 MD11Engineer : To us in West Berlin, the Russian military was a valid threat, daily visible to us. Still, I´d say that life in Afghanistan under the Soviets was pr
88 propilot83 : No your wrong buddy, I am right, we cant just walk into any country and liberate them from oppression, torture, and a barbaric government. Mostly Ira
89 MingToo : In which case, you have to raise the question of why we are fighting ordinary Afghan people in their own country. If they aren't Taliban, then they a
90 Venus6971 : As I read this thread I see alot of you seem to say to the girl on the cover "sucks to be you". There is nothing worth fighting anymore or have been s
91 MD11Engineer : Fine, a nice video game hightech war. No dirty pictures from the ground. Only thing is that the fighters then hide in villages among the civilian pop
92 MingToo : Even if that means killing several million Pashtuns who just see NATO as a foreign occupying force ? You forgot the part where the US along with Saud
93 DocLightning : Because it wasn't a priority. We needed to fix Afghanistan because they were and still are a direct threat to national security. By diverting needed
94 Post contains images BMI727 : Because we are good liberal people who care about others.
95 BarfBag : There's no de jure or effectively de facto legal authority imposing such ridiculous punishments in India, as the original poster implied; the article
96 Superfly : Oh come on, I know you are much smarter than that. You can't possibly believe that lie started by President Cheney. Even Bush's closest supporters kn
97 BMI727 : I know. I'm just pointing out the fallacy of labeling things.
98 Superfly : The situation in Afghanistan is far too serious to get caught up in silly liberal vs. conservative hissyfits. Partisanship ends at the nations border
99 Post contains links MingToo : It's happened in the UK too. http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL1919223520070719 and the USA. http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...-29-honor-killi
100 BMI727 : If only that were true. Politicians need votes, and voters care about what happens outside the nation's borders.
101 Post contains links Baroque : You might want to check in more detail the history of Marshall aid. First remember that the US had just rejected the Morgenthau plan and it still inf
102 Post contains links MingToo : The Taliban have never operated outside of Afghanistan. They aren't even labelled as a terrorist group by the USA. This 'Caliphate' argument is large
103 Post contains links MD11Engineer : First, the list wasn´t posted by me and there is a big diference if honour killings are law in a country or sanctioned by the governmentor if they a
104 MD11Engineer : If you quote me, then quote me correctly. I said TALIBAN TRAINED. Quite a few fighters (not all ethnic Afghans, but many Arabs as well) trained in Af
105 MingToo : From their perspective, the Pashtuns live on Pashtun tribal land. We drew a line through the middle of it. If the Taliban are training Arabs to go an
106 einsteinboricua : Then who is causing havoc in Pakistan? By the way, a little fact for y'all. Pakistani forces have a very strange policy for guarding the country. The
107 MingToo : The Pakistan Taliban
108 MD11Engineer : This is again why I´m so p*ssed of with Rumsfeld and Co.. Their idea of running a war on the cheap (we can´t have tax rises, can´t we?), using cru
109 iakobos : A small correction is due: it was Jozip Broz (aka Tito) whom kept Yugoslavs in check, not the USSR.
110 MingToo : Agreed. Where we differ is that you are putting this down to incompetence whereas I am putting it down to a wider true agenda.
111 par13del : As the original poster I made a general comment about male dominated societies, did not intend to post every issue which western societies have issue
112 MD11Engineer : While I don´t doubt that individual persons or corporations use their influence on government members for their own ends, I seriously doubt that the
113 KPDX : If the US leaves, everyone will talk about how horrible and cruel the US is for leaving everyone there to die.... It's a loose-loose situation.
114 Post contains links AGM100 : I don't know what would happen .... and I sure as hell don't care about them anyway what I do care about is our guys ...our soldiers and there familie
115 merlot : Question: are the Afghani women and what their future may be more damaging to America than the ~16000 Americans who will be murdered this year alone
116 BMI727 : They were on that list as soon as the Soviets found a way to get a bomb there. Along with hundreds of other places, all of which could have been vapo
117 merlot : ...Everyone goes through the black/white phase in their younger years making judgments only on what is quantifiable. Sure, there were numerous target
118 BMI727 : Which is good because they could have beyond a doubt. There is a fundamental difference between the Soviets and terrorists. With the Soviets we had t
119 Mortyman : My point exactly You actually think that America is safer after Afghanistan and Iraq ? How ao ?
120 BMI727 : No, I meant safer than during the Cold War. As far as being safer after Afghanistan and Iraq we did manage to kill a lot of terrorists and remove a b
121 Mortyman : Yes we have killed alot of terrorists, but we have made alot more. Not fewer. It's an endless sycle[Edited 2010-08-06 22:47:47]
122 BMI727 : Oh well. Of course we will be better off modeling future terrorist hunts on the way we handled the early Afghanistan war rather than the latter part.
123 Baroque : Excellent post Merlot. The Russians worked it out and came to the conclusion that it was not worth the candle. Fortunately the majority opinion in th
124 Post contains images par13del : Previously you correctly mentioned the fallacy of a US poster talk about winning the Cold War, now who exactly are you saying these clowns are who en
125 Baroque : Previously I was reporting a logical interpretation of history. In the quote you made, I was suggesting what would be asked - not necessarily at all
126 Post contains images par13del : Different times my friend, those who missed the LAX games could be in the same boat, now if the Olympic committe would attempt to conduct steroid tes
127 Post contains links MD11Engineer : Back to the original topic: The young woman, who has been mutilated by her husband, has been transfered to the US and is undergoing reconstructive sur
128 charles79 : A very bright spot in what is otherwise a very depressing thread. Kudos to the folks who will be helping this young lady.
129 AGM100 : Relating our current situation to the Soviet / Afghan war is missing a very simple piece. No 767 was flown into Moscow by insurgents trained by a inte
130 Acheron : I have a better idea, don't leave Afghanistan, but beat the crap out of Pakistan since most of the money, support and training for the Talibans comes
131 LTU932 : And let's hope they'll let her stay in the US, so she can learn English, get a job and a chance at a decent life, away from the Taliban and away from
132 tu204 : No offence, but you are failing miserably at this. Your actions in Afghanistan and Iraq are having an opposite effect. These actions are creating ter
133 tu204 : Just as evil, or just as good. Depends how you look at it. We were REPEATEDLY asked and BEGGED for assistance by the legal Afghan government when shi
134 BMI727 : It is a fool's errand to try and end the desire to attack America. Make them unable, not unwilling. To America? Or everyone else? Fine. Then we can k
135 par13del : Is that because they are trying to colonize countries that they did not take over after WWII? The "allies" technically controlled much of the industr
136 Baroque : No I don't, I mean right wingers. Aguably the most effective anti-communists were on the left wing, those who had been members of the Communist party
137 BMI727 : If an entire race decides to become terrorists, you might be right. Why screw around trying to make people like us? Just kill the people who are tryi
138 Baroque : The problem is that folk who were not deciding to become terrorists are being killed and their rels and friends get a bit pissed off - just as you wo
139 MingToo : Bin Laden is laughing in his grave or cave depending on his mortal state. You are playing right into his hands. This is exactly what he wanted. To li
140 tu204 : EXACTLY!!! I couldn't have said it better myself. Nomatter of intentions, the U.S. played right into the "big plan" of terrorism.
141 BMI727 : And how is the opposite approach working? Then don't fight against the hate. Fight against the people that hate us. It doesn't matter why they want t
142 tu204 : Try it the other way. Don't fight the people that hate you. Alot of people hate you. Hell, I am a nice guy and alot of people hate me. But if I was t
143 BMI727 : So why are we building them schools and hospitals? That is no excuse to play nicely with existing radicals. See that's where we run into problems. Th
144 tu204 : I agree with you. Too bad though, winning the "hearts and minds" is pretty important. But you will inevitably clip innocents, collateral damage so to
145 BMI727 : Only because we decided it's important. Russia doesn't seem to worry about hearts and minds. Of course that will happen. There is no way to avoid it
146 MingToo : How do you class an Afghan who kills some US troops because his family were blown to pieces by a US bomb hitting a wedding ?
147 BMI727 : Terrorist.
148 Baroque : Oh dear! Care to let us know what you call the person or persons who - however unintentionally - bombed the wedding?
149 BMI727 : That's an accident. Because they are on our side. It is really simple. If you want to kill Americans, then we want to kill you. And I don't care why
150 Baroque : No wonder the US has such a problem in SE Asia. How about Sun Tzu? "If you know yourself but not your enemy, for every victory gained you will also s
151 MingToo : Or Confucious, "Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves" It is at least and honest and consistent point of view. Do you agree that
152 BMI727 : How about "the best defense is a good offense"? I suppose, but that doesn't legitimize them. Of course, if you were to ask them, there is nothing tha
153 MingToo : And in the example of avenging the deaths at a wedding, the Afghan person is not just killing anyone in America. They aren't even in America, they ar
154 BMI727 : Yep. They are terrorists and they should be eliminated. We can't just take a stroll down the cell block at Gitmo and say "Him, he's a good one, he wa
155 MingToo : So, a question: Let's say you have good intel that Bin Laden is hiding in a small village in the mountains. You know that there are 30-40 totally inn
156 BMI727 : Probably, depending on all the variables. Of course you'd want to do your best to make sure that collateral damage is minimized but it's a risk worth
157 MingToo : Precisely. That's the reality. So if for instance, that village with Bin Laden hiding out was not in Afghanistan, but was in upstate New York would y
158 BMI727 : That depends on your definition of winning.
159 MingToo : I find it hard to see any definition of winning that is close to what is happening in Afghanistan.
160 BMI727 : Now not so much, but back in 2001-2002 or so we were catching a lot or really bad guys over there. Still, there have been no successful terrorist att
161 MingToo : There has been no need for them. The US is now doing Bin Laden's work for him, stumbling into one muslim country after another. More terror attacks a
162 BMI727 : War generally helps the economy though. He's after a lot more than that though. If it makes him feel better I guess.
163 Post contains images Superfly : ...and MooTing too.
164 Baroque : OK lets have a debate. "None." End of debate. All you needed to stop 9/11 was have a half reasonable security service that realised reports of folk l
165 BMI727 : There were a lot of signs that people didn't see leading up to 9/11, but hopefully they have opened their eyes. Like I said, the War on Terror needs
166 Baroque : Actually I do not know this. Care to explain? I don't have much education in this arcane sort of matter. Bear in mind it will need to pass the Karzai
167 BMI727 :
168 Baroque : To which I can but reply: AND
169 BMI727 : So why fight then? Why not just sit down and wait for the terrorists to quit? Eventually they'll get bored and get sick of the fact that their caves
170 MingToo : Nobody is saying not to fight, it is more a matter of the approach that is being taken. There are 2 points: Firstly, there are underlying injustices
171 BMI727 : It isn't our job to fix all the world's injustices. Isn't that the sort of thinking that got us into an unpopular war in Iraq? It will be everlasting
172 Post contains links Baroque : Indeed not. Possibly start by reading the background to: Abu Bakar Ba'asyir Has His Collar Felt - Again! (by Baroque Aug 9 2010 in Non Aviation) Then
173 BMI727 : I never said there aren't. But that kind of ends once they strap on a bomb vest. Unlike the US Army, they aren't building schools or handing out tedd
174 Baroque : I take it you are not familiar with the achievements or the methods of Det 88?
175 MingToo : I didn't say it was your job to fix all injustices. But it is your foreign policy that creates many of them. The support and arming of dictators in t
176 BMI727 : I found a few articles, including a few references to possible torture. For the most part they seem to be a pretty bad ass group, and I would fully s
177 tu204 : Boomerang. It is becoming unfair for you now.
178 Post contains links Baroque : I think I see where you got this idea. It might be true, Brimob - to which they are related - does not have the best of reputations. It is certainly
179 BMI727 : I don't have anything against taking terrorists alive when it is practical and is a reasonable risk for Americans. I agree, but you still need to hav
180 MingToo : That is what the US insisted we do with the IRA for many years and in the end there has been a reasonable result. What do you think would have happen
181 BMI727 : How do you negotiate with a group that has hardcore jihadists in their ranks? And for what it's worth, I would have been just fine if the UK had not
182 Baroque : Some definitely YES. As MingToo points out, that was US policy for the IRA, well actually a second policy after the policy of assisting in arming the
183 MingToo : You don't. You have to take out the hardcore jihadists. But that does not mean that you have to take out everyone and at the same time create a whole
184 BMI727 : So set up another warlord/dictator/government friendly to us and give them money and guns. It doesn't matter who kills the terrorists, as long as the
185 MingToo : Agreed, but the reason that he says it is because that is what gets people to join up with him, not the global jihad stuff. Back in the 1980s, Bin La
186 BMI727 : Actually the US never aided Bin Laden, he didn't need it. The CIA agents in Afghanistan knew who he was, but there was nothing about him that stood o
187 MingToo : There are far more important things for the US to focus on domestically than supporting the Israelis and spending 100s of billions of dollars to ensu
188 BMI727 : I don't think that US support has as much to do with oil as one might think. As "America's only ally" in the region, they haven't done a whole lot ot
189 Post contains images par13del : Technically that may work in the short term or as a recruiting tool, but in the long run it will become fools gold, when one looks at the US system i
190 MingToo : You have enough proven reserves of conventional oil for 3 years of total US demand or about 8 years of current production. Beyond that you have to st
191 BMI727 : Complete independence is impossible and unnecessary. And it isn't a one way relationship either, since those nations with oil wealth buy a lot of Ame
192 MingToo : It isn't impossible. It isn't necessary but the result is that you spend a fortune supporting bad regime and invading countries. And the excessive us
193 par13del : No contradiction at all, the maximum that any President can serve in the US is 8 years, Senators are elected every 6 years and House Members every 2
194 Post contains images Baroque : According to a TV report tonight, the US is doing both by paying thugs to protect convoys with the protection money commonly going to the Talibs. Goo
195 BMI727 : That just means you need to find better thugs.
196 HAWK21M : When the US leave Afghanistan....The Taliban will take over the place,followed by an Invasion & takeover of Pakistan,Before India,US,UK,Russia lau
197 Post contains images Baroque : Meh, the quality of thugs is just NOT what it used to be. I blame the global warming you know.
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