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Last Of 14,000 Combat Troops Rolling Out Of Iraq.  
User currently offlineTPA36R From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 210 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3514 times:

As per MSNBC

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38744453/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/

Quote:
IRAQ-KUWAIT BORDER — The last U.S. combat troops were crossing the border into Kuwait on Thursday morning, bringing to a close the active combat phase of a 7½-year war that overthrew the dictatorial regime of Saddam Hussein, forever defined the presidency of George W. Bush and left more than 4,400 American service members and tens of thousands of Iraqis dead.

Sorry if this was posted. Glad to see these folks getting closer to home.

80 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinecaliatenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1577 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3511 times:

its live on the tv right now...on Countdown w/ Kieth Olbermann.

User currently onlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16865 posts, RR: 51
Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3479 times:

There are still 50,000 US troops in Iraq assisting in training and providing security to US assets.


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3410 times:

Like I said in the other thread... this news is a freakin' joke.

There are still thousands of combat arms soldiers in Iraq, who are armed with heavy weapons that can f*ck you up. The idea that the war is over, is laughable.

But with all of that being said... would any of us ever have imagined this day would have come? I remember being in Iraq in 2006, during the high of the insurgency, and thinking that the situation was hopeless. If you go back and reread some of my threads, I was fairly pessimistic.

Yet here we are... leaving in a controlled manner, in a relatively peaceful situation. I know some people are going to credit President Bush, but personally I give all the credit to Generals Patraeus and Odierno.

I do not directly blame President Bush for how poorly the war was managed. For that, I reserve my deep hatred for Donald Rumsfeld. He was unquestionably the worst SecDef in US history. I blame President Bush for hiring that man, and then keeping him on board for 7 years. Inexcusable.

The only brilliant thing President Bush did, when it came to Iraq, was promoting General Patraeus to MNF-I commander. He and General Odierno turned the hopeless situation around. Their strategy and strong leadership is why we are able to leave Iraq with a semblance of honor.

I am not ashamed to say that I am honored to have served in Iraq.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19698 posts, RR: 58
Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3396 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 3):

I am not ashamed to say that I am honored to have served in Iraq.

Thank you for doing it, but I am afraid that within the year, there will be a rebellion and a new extremist dictatorship will rear its ugly head.


User currently onlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16865 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3335 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 3):
Yet here we are... leaving in a controlled manner, in a relatively peaceful situation. I know some people are going to credit President Bush, but personally I give all the credit to Generals Patraeus and Odierno.

I do not directly blame President Bush for how poorly the war was managed. For that, I reserve my deep hatred for Donald Rumsfeld. He was unquestionably the worst SecDef in US history. I blame President Bush for hiring that man, and then keeping him on board for 7 years. Inexcusable.

I could not agree more.

Btw..

Is the US going to maintain any bases post 2011, after all is said and done I think at the US should maintain bases at Ali/Tallil Air Base, Al Asad and Joint Base Balad.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4618 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3319 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 3):

I am not ashamed to say that I am honored to have served in Iraq.

Thank you for doing it, but I am afraid that within the year, there will be a rebellion and a new extremist dictatorship will rear its ugly head.

My father served in Iraq and Saudi at the beginning in 2003. A great many people have done a lot to make this happen.

However I still don't see Iraq maintaining stability . There are far too many issues with the native population. A lot of what has quited down seems to me to be more of the Iraqi's taking a bunker mentality and just waiting out the US departure.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3094 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3305 times:

The Iraq War chapter has come to its end. About time too. Wonder if the Afghanistan War will proceed better? Though reports are that ever since Iraq, there was no clear strategy in Afghanistan, hence the increased insurgency.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 3):
would any of us ever have imagined this day would have come? I remember being in Iraq in 2006, during the high of the insurgency, and thinking that the situation was hopeless. If you go back and reread some of my threads, I was fairly pessimistic.

I think that, had McCain won the presidency, we would be looking at a different scenario. After all, he vowed that if we needed to be 100 years in Iraq, then we would be...  



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3297 times:

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 7):
I think that, had McCain won the presidency, we would be looking at a different scenario. After all, he vowed that if we needed to be 100 years in Iraq, then we would be...

I think you're adding politics, where politics need not be.

Just look at the facts. The "surge" was the master plan of Generals Patraeus and Odierno. It's hard to argue against the success of the Surge and COIN operations those two men undertook. The set clear goal markers, and as they were reached, the operation moved into the end game. It was the two generals who started the plan for the draw down, and did it when President Bush was still on office. When President Obama was elected, he deferred to their judgment. In fact, he originally wanted to withdraw sooner, but the two cautioned against it, and advised a more measured withdrawal. He did the right thing and listened to his generals. He didn't do anything extraordinary or precipitous to get us to where we are.

So unless you can substantiate your claim that Sen McCain would have done it all differently, ignored the Generals, and denied any withdrawals... you're simply trying to get the political reactionaries on this forum, all worked up. Spare us.


User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3282 times:

A young lady (18) from our high-school just deployed into Iraq with her Army unit. Some kind of security outfit ... not sure but she is essentially a police officer . We know her parents ... we know her and just cant imagine what she does everyday in that hostile place....

I hope this news today does not effect our support of the Americans in there in danger....we still have many in need. It is tremendously hot there right now from what I hear and this adds to the punishing task they do everyday.



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineKPDX From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2749 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3259 times:

Wow, this is just as bad as the "Mission Accomplished" deal. The Iraq war isn't even close to over. Bullshit it's over.   


View my aviation videos on Youtube by searching for zildjiandrummr12
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3216 times:

Quoting KPDX (Reply 10):
Wow, this is just as bad as the "Mission Accomplished" deal.



To the men and women in the Stryker brigade crossing into Kuwait ...and many many many others who spent time there , it is a good day. We must give there efforts credit .... and a ceremonial end to combat operations is important. Our Military is divided into direct combat units and units that do all the other dirty work. Giving credit to the efforts of these combat units is a good thing ....



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineKPDX From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2749 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3205 times:

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 11):
To the men and women in the Stryker brigade crossing into Kuwait ...and many many many others who spent time there , it is a good day. We must give there efforts credit ....

Oh, absolutely! I am just saying the notion that the war is over in Iraq is BS.



View my aviation videos on Youtube by searching for zildjiandrummr12
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3189 times:

Quoting KPDX (Reply 12):
Oh, absolutely! I am just saying the notion that the war is over in Iraq is BS.



The war is over .... the war between Iraqi's is certainly yet to be settled and that is what this is all about. The entire war was to set the stage for the Iraqi's to play out there future ... it is up to them and only them.

Congratulations to 2ID being part of the closing act .... they certainly have been in the thick of it .



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3094 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (4 years 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3163 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 8):
So unless you can substantiate your claim that Sen McCain would have done it all differently, ignored the Generals, and denied any withdrawals... you're simply trying to get the political reactionaries on this forum, all worked up. Spare us.

I did not say McCain would have done any of that...what I said is that we would be looking at a different scenario. Notice how I did not specify what his course of action would be. Maybe he would've gone ahead and withdraw the troops, maybe he would've extended their stay...who knows? And unfortunately, politics do come into this discussion, even though the withdrawal has nothing to do with it. If there hadn't been an Iraq War, for which everyone here is still figuring out the purpose, this topic would not even exist. I have to be honest, I thought that the war would be over as soon as Saddam had been captured and that did not materialize. So when exactly would the war be over?

Anyway, I'll put this to rest. Just trying to make a point.



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (4 years 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3131 times:

This is not a triumph, this is a forced retreat.    President Obama needed to do this for several reasons:

1. The political support for this war is very low in the US and Obama promised to put an end to it. Therefore he was voted. Not pulling out of Iraq would certainly cost him re-election, possibly through a candidate in his own party.

2. The US economy and public deficit are in such a bad condition that he couldn't afford to keep this war going. It is simply too expensive.

3. The US military is over-stretched and exhausted. The material is in a bad condition and morale is low. In addition it still has a lot of work to do in Afghanistan.

In February 2009 Obama announced the withdrawal within 18 month. At the end of 2011, all troops (except a very few) will be gone. What do you thin happens then?

Iraq is still divided into Shia & Sunni Arabs and Kurds. There are still many revenges to be taken.

The so-called police and army are not very strong and every one of them is a member of some tribe and some religious faction. Their weapons and training will be fuel to the upcoming confrontations.

There are still bombings. Most of the "terrorists/rebels/bad guys/evil doers/etc." are probably just trying to increase their armies and their firing powers and waiting until all US troops are gone (smarter than getting killed against a force that will pull out anyway). Soon after the withdrawal is completed, the civil war will break out.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 3):
He and General Odierno turned the hopeless situation around. Their strategy and strong leadership is why we are able to leave Iraq with a semblance of honor.

Great strategy, giving money and weapons to Sunni militias in Anbar to make them work against Al-Qaida. How deep is their loyalty really? Who will they fight for next? Just read an article that when the money doesn't come like it should (corruption?) they are offered by Al-Qaida to either work for them (with pay) or be killed. The Iraqi version of the Latin America "plomo o plata".

Their loyalty can/will change, their American-supplied weapons will stay.


User currently offlinedl021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3123 times:
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Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 3):
I am not ashamed to say that I am honored to have served in Iraq.

I'm proud of you for serving and appreciate you putting your ass on the line for all of us. Thanks.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
I am afraid that within the year, there will be a rebellion and a new extremist dictatorship will rear its ugly head.

Possible, but remember that we're not going anywhere in the next year. We'll still have 50k troops on the ground, Plus a division's worth of contractors working for State.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 15):
The political support for this war is very low in the US and Obama promised to put an end to it. Therefore he was voted. Not pulling out of Iraq would certainly cost him re-election, possibly through a candidate in his own party.

He was not voted in for that. Your interpretation of US politics is faulty on this account. He was voted in by a populace, narrowly, who wanted him to fix the economy as he promised. He had to pull back on his war promises during the final run-up because it wasn't working for him. He'd already been proven wrong on the surge, and was already backpedaling on other military issues.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 15):
The US economy and public deficit are in such a bad condition that he couldn't afford to keep this war going. It is simply too expensive.

Actually, it costs us less than the incredibly expensive, and perpetual/non-ending spending programs he's initiated since taking office. Wars are temporary, massive overspending on entitlement programs arent.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 15):
The US military is over-stretched and exhausted. The material is in a bad condition and morale is low. In addition it still has a lot of work to do in Afghanistan.

The military is not in bad condition, and morale is high until you start talking to people about quitting before it's finished, and telling them that it was all for nothing (pulling out before the resolution is clear is demoralizing). Exhausted? Wrong word. Now...let's talk again in a year when the budget cuts hit and spares once again become non-existent for equipment that's now headed for replacement. SOrt of like at the end of the Clinton administration.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 15):
In February 2009 Obama announced the withdrawal within 18 month. At the end of 2011, all troops (except a very few) will be gone. What do you thin happens then?

He's made a bunch of promises (closing Gitmo was one) that haven't happened. President Obama would pull out prematurely from Iraq only at his political peril. Gen. Petraeus has already said what many in the Administration are afraid to.....they're there until it makes sense to leave. The Iraqis don't want us completely gone, and have openly said so.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlinemoose135 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2322 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (4 years 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3089 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 3):
I do not directly blame President Bush for how poorly the war was managed. For that, I reserve my deep hatred for Donald Rumsfeld. He was unquestionably the worst SecDef in US history. I blame President Bush for hiring that man, and then keeping him on board for 7 years. Inexcusable.

Completely agree with you on that one. McNamara was bad, but Rumsfeld was a disaster, and the effects of his "leadership" will take years to repair.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 3):
I am not ashamed to say that I am honored to have served in Iraq.

As a veteran from long ago, I can say that while I believe we were wrong to fight in Iraq, I am proud of you and all the brave men and women of our armed forces who sacrificed so much in service of our nation.



KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
User currently offlineDeltaMD11 From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 1701 posts, RR: 34
Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3069 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 15):
The US military is over-stretched and exhausted. The material is in a bad condition and morale is low. In addition it still has a lot of work to do in Afghanistan.

The bit about having a lot of work to do in Afghanistan I won't argue with because that certainly is a factual statement. Are we overstretched and exhausted? I have friends far and wide that have deployed three and even four times in recent years and are chomping at the bit to go again because they believe in what we are trying to accomplish and want to be alongside of their brothers. The US military is as large as it has been in many years and continues to grow. Of course you will find disgruntled service members everywhere who want nothing more than to get out, but overall morale is far from being low. I'm currently in a Heavy Brigade Combat Team that is not combat deployable and I would say the overwhelming majority of us want nothing more than to get back into unit that will take us to the fight. Don't believe everything you read in the media.



Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7957 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (4 years 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3055 times:

At the risk of brushing those slightly pahetic "thank yous" aside - the U.S. leaves a desolate, ruined Iraq with a weak government, weak security forces and insurgents that, while weakened, are still going strong. Besides, there are still separatist movements in the north and south with Iran and Syria trying to gain influence.
Hence, the retreat seems to follow the motiv "grit your teeth and get on with it".

No matter how heart warming the pictures - the retreat will naturally be an open invitation to discuss the question, whether it was "worth" it or not. More than 4,000 American and 10,000 Iraqi soldiers as well as 100,000 civilians died. The status quo is insecure, same with the country's future, but Iraq and the world got rid of Saddam Hussein and his henchmen. 740 Billion Dollars were spent.
Perhaps the invasion was crucial for Iran and North Korea to develop nukes, but certainly influence and power of the Iranian mullahs rose to new highs. At the same time, the Iraqi people at least have some sort of a democratically elected government, albeit without much freedom.

And when the Americans have come to a conclusion whether or not it was "worth" it, the next question should be what this war teaches us for the future.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineiakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3313 posts, RR: 34
Reply 20, posted (4 years 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3046 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 8):
Patraeus

Petraeus is his name, not Patraeus.

Dutch father, Sixtus Petraeus, American mother.
Petraeus from the Greek Petra (stones), and Latin Petraeus (growing with rocks), similar to Peter.


User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (4 years 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3014 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 22):
At the risk of brushing those slightly pahetic "thank yous" aside - the U.S. leaves a desolate, ruined Iraq with a weak government, weak security forces and insurgents that, while weakened, are still going strong. Besides, there are still separatist movements in the north and south with Iran and Syria trying to gain influence.

There are endless threads in the archives, discussing whether it was right or wrong, to invade Iraq. I think by this point, the argument has been beaten to death on A.net.

But back here in reality, the decision - regardless of being right or wrong - was made. All this debate couldn't change that we were there, it was going badly, and we needed to do something different.

In 2006, when things were arguably at their worst, we had three basic options:

1.) Get the hell out of there as soon as we could fly, sail, drive, run out of there. Forget about the consequences, forget about trying to train self-sufficiency to the ISF, and get out as fast as we could.

2.) Stay the course. Hope that things calmed down. Retract our forces from the cities, and focus on training the ISF. Internal Iraqi security could be their responsibility, not ours.

3.) Surge and switch to COIN tactics. Flood the towns and cities with manpower. Make deals with local leaders. "Take the gloves off".

Well I don't know about you, but none of those options were particularly appealing. None of them the "easy" choice. All of them carried risks. History shows that the third option was chosen - to the consternation of many. But history also shows that it dramatically cut the violence. It is undeniable that Baghdad in late '06, is not the same Baghdad of today. That didn't just happen by chance. It was a direct result of Generals Petraeus and Odierno, and their strong leadership and commitment to classic COIN ops.

Out of all the options, I think history will show that they took a poorly conceived war, and were able to turn it around and leave in the best way we could have hoped for.

Could things have been a hell of a lot better? Damn right. But 7 years of Donald Rumsfeld's destructive leadership - and President Bush's laissez-faire attitude towards managing his principals - made it impossible to leave on the best terms. But with all of that being said, I think we're leaving in the best fashion that we could have ever hoped for. It's quite amazing.


User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8507 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (4 years 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3008 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 22):
At the risk of brushing those slightly pahetic "thank yous" aside - the U.S. leaves a desolate, ruined Iraq with a weak government, weak security forces and insurgents that, while weakened, are still going strong.

Now Sharia law is the basis of Iraqi law. I can't imagine what it would feel like to be a soldier who fought to install Islamic law in a foreign country.


User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (4 years 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2994 times:

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 25):
Now Sharia law is the basis of Iraqi law. I can't imagine what it would feel like to be a soldier who fought to install Islamic law in a foreign country.

I thought Islam was a peaceful religion? A benign and respectful practice with altruistic intentions? Are you saying that they are a barbaric, woman hating, human rights hating, animalistic people? That isn't very culturally sensitive and understanding of you.   


User currently offlineMudboy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1167 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (4 years 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2988 times:

Quoting DeltaMD11 (Reply 20):
The bit about having a lot of work to do in Afghanistan I won't argue with because that certainly is a factual statement. Are we overstretched and exhausted? I have friends far and wide that have deployed three and even four times in recent years and are chomping at the bit to go again because they believe in what we are trying to accomplish and want to be alongside of their brothers. The US military is as large as it has been in many years and continues to grow. Of course you will find disgruntled service members everywhere who want nothing more than to get out, but overall morale is far from being low. I'm currently in a Heavy Brigade Combat Team that is not combat deployable and I would say the overwhelming majority of us want nothing more than to get back into unit that will take us to the fight. Don't believe everything you read in the media.

  

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 22):
At the risk of brushing those slightly pahetic "thank yous" aside - the U.S. leaves a desolate, ruined Iraq with a weak government, weak security forces and insurgents that, while weakened, are still going strong

You just gotta love the picture the media paints   


25 flood : So what does your picture look like?
26 Mudboy : Well being that I am on my 3rd tour in Iraq right now, I do have a different picture, as I interact with Iraqis on a daily basis, and I have seen and
27 Post contains images KPDX : I'm sure you'd rather get your facts from Huffington Post rather than someone who has served 3 tours, right?
28 NoUFO : I had no intention to reanimate those countless threads on the war, hence I didn't even express my stance on this matter. But it should become (again
29 DeltaMD11 : That's the line of departure for me. While I won't deny that journalism has its place in the forum of discussion and is important, it is difficult to
30 par13del : It appears as if the American people have moved on, maybe what is at issue is that they are not doing the things that non-Americans want them to do.
31 Thorben : He certainly was voted for a lot of reasons, but among them the fact that he was against this war, because so many Americans were against that war. H
32 DeltaMD11 : I have my picture from being in a combat arms unit that has 900 men, most of which have come from many different units that have deployed many differ
33 par13del : By a lot what percentage are you talking about, greater than 50% or less than 50%? Once the initial invasion was completed, the bulk of deaths in Ira
34 windy95 : Big mistake keeping Cheny and Rumsfeld on for the second term.. This "retreat" was negoiated under Bush Not as low as you seem to think. And Obama ha
35 Post contains links AGM100 : The Military did there Job.... they did what they were asked to do ...these events are important for the families who have sacrificed so fucking. We
36 Post contains links Baroque : What to believe? http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/300/6/652 Risk of Suicide Among US Veterans After Returning From the Iraq or Afghanistan Wa
37 ImperialEagle : Yes. I completely agree. Many thanks!!!!!!!!!! Oh yeah. I'm sure Iran will continue to supply arms. I am also sure the surrounding countries are keep
38 DeltaMD90 : WHAT? Are you sure you're looking at the US military? With someone who knows many recruiters and people trying to enlist, the bonuses are WAY down an
39 NoUFO : FAZ, Süddeutsche Zeitung, Die Zeit, Christian Science Monitor. BBC have improved and can be considered a good source, too. And *if* they have an age
40 Baroque : Do not suppose good data are available for the Saddam era for unemployment, but it is now reported to be 60%. Hardly a recipe for a stable state you
41 AGM100 : It is wishful thinking .... they do not know the US military. This is not Viet Nam with a bunch of conscripts and Cronkite letting the enemy know we
42 Mudboy : I have no idea where you got this info from, but I would say way more than half the woman walking around anywhere in Iraq, are in western clothing. A
43 Post contains links Baroque : http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2010/06/17/plight-women-northern-iraq The Plight of Women in Northern Iraq by Suad Abdulrahman Published in: The Daily Beas
44 Mudboy : I cannot comment on Southern Iraq or the Kurdish regions as I have spent no time there, but I have spent my time in the Sunni Triangle, and all aroun
45 NoUFO : Yes, but as always in a socialist economy, being unemployed was different. Just imagine you had a company in Iraq and 400 employees would be plenty t
46 par13del : We are talking about a minority dictator who fostered laws on the majority for whose benefit, his, theirs or an external power, essentially the diffe
47 Baroque : The difference would be that on the views of many who know a great deal better than I do the ability of women to get an education and employment have
48 par13del : Fine, but does that change the fact that what was being done prior to the invasion was being fostered on the majority of the people by might of the g
49 Baroque : You make it sound as if I was arguing in favour of a dictatorship. I was not. What I was noting is that the changes we have FORCED on Iraq have broug
50 par13del : Never said I was, all we are saying is that organizations who are media driven or who use the media to teach, educate, channel or direct our thinking
51 Baroque : Peaceful. Errr. Emmeline Pankhurst? And do not forget that Emily Wilding Davison was killed protesting at the Derby. I suspect we are agreeing that d
52 par13del : I stand corrected, I used the term peaceful as we did not have massive riots and bloodshed, but point taken. We both want womens rights, I certainely
53 AGM100 : The will for education and enlightenment by the women of Iraq is not gone .... We can assume Saddam did it because the women of Iraq wanted it and he
54 caliatenza : the only thing Saddam was good for was keeping the Iranians in check. Maybe we should have held off till he wore the Iranians down...then we could hav
55 Baroque : On the plus side takfir is not allowed - but I bet it occurs - on the negative side (Wiki) Islam is the state religion and a basic foundation for the
56 par13del : What is the alternative my friend, who wants to impose a government and or constitution on the people of Iraq, the current constitution was negotiate
57 NoUFO : You hinted the press had an "agenda", was "fallible" and therefore not to be trusted: Now you seem to be back-paddling: I'm sorry, but who is "we", w
58 par13del : In response to your comment that you trusted the media over boots on the ground. Since you said you trusted the media I asked which one you deemed tr
59 UH60FtRucker : I'm sorry, but you simply do not know what you're talking about. Matériel: At the height of the Iraq War and GWOT, there was approximately two divis
60 Baroque : Er, I was wrong is stating that I find the material published on suicide RATES confusing and inconsistent. If you have consisted data on RATES please
61 DeltaMD90 : Uhh just ask service members that have been in about 10 or more years. I mean not all of them will agree, but the general consensus I've gotten suppo
62 DL021 : Anecdotal evidence is easiest to come by. It's amazing that we continue to get fine young men and women to join when our youth is fatter and more sel
63 Post contains images Baroque : Ask any university lecturer after spending an hour trying to raise a smidgin of intellectual response from many first year classes and they will tell
64 Post contains links MadameConcorde : The U.S. isn't leaving Iraq at all. It is rebranding the occupation. It is also privatizing it. Obama says withdrawal is on schedule, but renaming or
65 par13del : It worked elsewhere, why not Iraq? US troops are in many countires around the world, some occupied during WWII others not, the only country we hear a
66 DL021 : This is true. There's been 200k private security contracters in this coflict before now. It isn't any more privatized than it already was. The only a
67 moose135 : I think the economic situation the past two to three years may be driving some of this (and new enlistment rates) as well - a stable, relatively well
68 DL021 : No doubt the economic situation drives military enlistment, which explains the higher than usual enlistment rates, but the re-enlistment rates are sk
69 stratosphere : I dunno.. My personal opinion and I am ignorant is that Iraq was a total mistake does not matter if Rummy sold the idea Bush put his stamp on it and I
70 Post contains links and images UH60FtRucker : Exactly. If the situation was so miserable and unbearable... thousands would not be eagerly reenlisting for another 2-6yrs. And regarding the crappy
71 Post contains images Baroque : Thank you for explaining so concisely why I prefer documented evidence over the anecdotal. And a different type of thanks to you moose135 Most likely
72 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : This thread is probably the first time I've ever seen non-Americans saying that Americans are NOT getting fatter and unhealthier! lol I understand the
73 Baroque : You do rush to judgement do you not? From your references. 1. New training initiative prepares Soldiers as Athletes 2. So while some defense analysts
74 Post contains images UH60FtRucker : Oh absolutely. I spent a maximum of only five minutes quickly grabbing a few links off of google. I'll be fully honest here, I didn't even bother rea
75 Baroque : I was far from begging from articles, they are ten a penny. What I was looking for was some hard data. And your google results just vindicate my conc
76 UH60FtRucker : I must say, if you have done anything here, it has been to surprise me! Normally I can predict your response to a thread, well before you even post i
77 Post contains images DL021 : Well, I'd agree but logic indicates that when we had 5 percent unemployment a couple of years ago (remember that?) we still had sky-high re-enlistmen
78 par13del : What role is the US playing now and how does that role help the Iraqi people take over governance of their country. In my opinion what the US forces
79 KCmike : I was there over the summer. I can say as a pilot, that the SAM threat is still out there. Not to the extent that it was, but we still got shot at fro
80 Post contains links MadameConcorde : the US has troops (not just a few, anywhere from 1,000-100,000) in every country bordering Iran or just across the Persian Gulf. I'll try to go clock
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