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France Deports Fellow European Union Citizens Back  
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26912 posts, RR: 58
Posted (3 years 12 months 2 days ago) and read 3804 times:

France has deported hundreds more Roma as two Romanian ministers held talks in Paris to discuss the crackdown on travelling people.

Police escorted two buses carrying Roma men, women and children to Paris Charles de Gaulle airport this morning.

The government said a total 283 Roma were deported to Romania from Paris and Lyon airports.

The controversial crackdown has drawn fire from the right, the left, the Catholic Church and a UN anti-racism panel while failing to boost the president in the opinion polls.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0826/france.html

Apparantly the EU is investigating if this complies with EU law but so much for one Europe and a Europe without borders. I guess its easy to pick on the Roma communities.

75 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5240 posts, RR: 25
Reply 1, posted (3 years 12 months 2 days ago) and read 3773 times:

Do these Roma hold Romanian citizenship? I know that some countries have been iffy (to be it mildly) in their relations with their Roma minorities. Regardless, France should not be doing this. If they are Romanian citizens (and the involvement of the Romanian Government leads me to believe that they are), they have every right to be in France. A member of one EU member state is a member of all EU member states, at least as I understand EU law. Seriously, this reeks of racism, paranoia, and prejudice.

Quoting OA260 (Thread starter):
Apparantly the EU is investigating if this complies with EU law but so much for one Europe and a Europe without borders.

Well let's hold on a second. I mean these deportations appear to be an isolated case in France for now. I'm certainly hoping that this does not set a precedent.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineajd1992 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (3 years 12 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3713 times:

I thought people could still be deported even if they were a citizen of another EU country?

I'm not sure this is as "wrong" as it seems.


User currently offlineexFATboy From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2974 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (3 years 12 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3706 times:

As part of accession to the European Union, Romanians (and Bulgarians) are subject to migration restrictions in some EU countries, of which France is one. France has elected - as is mentioned in the RTE link in the OP - to require Romanians to get a job and lodging within three months or be expelled. These restrictions expire in 2014.

The article also mentions that many Roma in France live in illegally established campsites.

In other words, it's entirely possible the deportees in question have violated the law and France is within its rights to deport them. It's also possible France is targeting Roma Romanians for more...vigorous enforcement, which in turn could be discrimination, or just that their encampments are easier to spot and inspect that non-Roma Romanians living in the cities.


User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4304 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (3 years 12 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3706 times:

It's pretty backwards either way, I assume they have found some legal way of doing it if they haven't, then I hope they get what's coming to them.

I am not surprised by all that is going on in Europe, North America, etc. With economies from right to left in the gutter, you see xenophobia, deportations, and fear-mongering. Seen it before in my own country during it's economic meltdown.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently onlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2071 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (3 years 12 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3693 times:

It's nearly impossible for an EU country to deport EU citizens legally. Is it possible they did some sort of deal with them, e.g. dropping hypothetical charges or paying some money if they agree to leave? Berlin had a problem with a group of several hundred Roma who camped in the middle of townlast year or so, they were given 100 € each and a bus trip to Romania. I don't know how many of them have since returned.

[Edited 2010-08-26 14:32:48]


Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineozglobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (3 years 12 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3655 times:

Before the American, British and other 'experts' on this topic chime in further, get your facts and a little perspective, please.

EU citizens have freedom of movement without visa restrictions in Schengen zone countries. UK and others do NOT participate and have full border and passport controls. On my French residency permit and Australian passport, I get the third degree without exception from surly UK Border control staff, convinced my only aim in life is to stay more than 3 months and work illegally. Same when I go to the US.

Romania may be in the EU (mistake to take them so soon probably, but history will judge), but has specific constraint on residency in other EU countries. They are allowed to stay 3 months and must leave if they cannot find a job and sustain themselves (much more than I can do in the UK for example).

Over the 8 years I have been in Paris, the population of Roma has exploded, as has their very negative impact. Earlier this year, I would walk less than one hundred metres in my neighbourhood at Opera and pass more than 50 Roma sleeping in every doorway, street corner and even outside my front door, four at a time (They also keep large numbers of dogs as their are ordinances making it difficult to move people on independent of their animals and these animals and the way of street living makes for some nasty mess). During the day they do nothing but ruse tourists, including most who have stayed with me, and locals with innumerable scams, pickpocket in the metro and often use their children as begging bait by forcing them to lie on their laps when the are far too old for this just so they look tragic (they have been stopped by the French police in the past couple of years from doing this as they were even sedating the kids to keep them placid and the state deemed the practice quite rightly to be child abuse). They are not in the slightest interested in legitimate work even though they often speak an adequate level of French.

France has tolerated very patiently their traditional numbers for centuries, and their recent explosion in numbers for years. Street people in France have many more rights than in most other coutries (I could give many examples). There are now HUNDREDS of slums surrounding the major cities of France, thousands or 10's of thousands of new Roma arrived, thousands of associated petty crimes, robberies and burglaries (they stake out buildings during the day to observe the patterns of comings and goings and burglaries always increase when they appear in the neighbourhood). And all of this from people who have overstayed the residency period often by years. They have NO LEGITIMATE right to remain in France and their presence has become a growing problem.

In this case they are being given 300 euros each to return home.

I'm not sure what the best solution is, but France is not in breach of international or EU law any more than the UK is when it sends Oz backpackers home who overstay their visa, something the administration do very regularly. Please direct your wrath equally to the UK and US for their standard procedures.

[Edited 2010-08-26 15:05:20]

[Edited 2010-08-26 15:16:59]


When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineYellowstone From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3071 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (3 years 12 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3627 times:

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 6):
Before the American, British and other 'experts' on this topic chime in further, get your facts and a little perspective, please.

Over on Reddit, the various threads on the Roma issue have been going much the same way - Americans getting indignant about the racist/xenophobic treatment of the Roma, and Europeans pointing out that the stereotype of the Roma as sociopathic con men and thieves is, quite often, pretty darn accurate.



Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26912 posts, RR: 58
Reply 8, posted (3 years 12 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3623 times:

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 6):
I'm not sure what the best solution is, but France is not in breach of international or EU law any more than the UK is when it sends Oz backpackers home who overstay their visa,

Romanians are EU citizens , Kiwi's and Aussies are not. I know people from the Roma community here and they are not the people you describe above, you cant tarnish a whole community.


User currently offlineozglobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (3 years 12 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3616 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 8):
Quoting ozglobal (Reply 6):
I'm not sure what the best solution is, but France is not in breach of international or EU law any more than the UK is when it sends Oz backpackers home who overstay their visa,

Romanians are EU citizens , Kiwi's and Aussies are not.

You choose to ignore the parallel: they have both overstayed a three month residency permit.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 8):
I know people from the Roma community here and they are not the people you describe above, you cant tarnish a whole community.

Glad your Roma are different. The thousands here operate mafia fashion as I describe. I speak of what I know and have lived with for 8 years. I am eye witness to all I have said HERE.



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26912 posts, RR: 58
Reply 10, posted (3 years 12 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3596 times:

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 9):
You choose to ignore the parallel: they have both overstayed a three month residency permit.

But the situation is different . We live in a European Union and EU citizens have rights as members of the Union. Kiwi's/Aussies are not EU citizens of an EU member state. They have the same status as someone from Nigeria or India etc....

Forced deportations of families from a member state is a sad state of affairs IMHO. If they commit a crime then take them to court and charge them , if guilty jail them I have no issue with that but innocent until proven guilty.Are they going to round up all the illegal Moroccans or Algerians and deport them? Why target the Roma?


User currently offlineozglobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (3 years 12 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3587 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 10):
Quoting ozglobal (Reply 9):
You choose to ignore the parallel: they have both overstayed a three month residency permit.

But the situation is different . We live in a European Union and EU citizens have rights as members of the Union.

Romanians do not have the right to stay more than three months in France without work. This is an accepted part of the current EU legal framework. The situation is NOT different in terms of THIS right.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 10):
orced deportations of families from a member state is a sad state of affairs IMHO.

So is an organized mafia of squatters in huge and growing numbers. (I know your Roma are not like this).

Quoting OA260 (Reply 10):
If they commit a crime then take them to court and charge them , if guilty jail them I have no issue with that but innocent until proven guilty.

Agree regarding crime. But this thread is about deportation. The 'offense' there is overstaying your residency permit, that is proven.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 10):
Are they going to round up all the illegal Moroccans or Algerians and deport them? Why target the Roma?

If they want to be consistent, they probably should. But if you check, I never said THIS was the solution, I simply clarified the problem and the associated applicable law.



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26912 posts, RR: 58
Reply 12, posted (3 years 12 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3561 times:

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 11):
I never said THIS was the solution, I simply clarified the problem and the associated applicable law.

I just think its wrong and creates a two tier EU and we are all supposed to be equal with equal rights. This just highlights its not going to be anything other than a loose Union with some rights for some.


User currently offlineozglobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (3 years 12 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3551 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 12):
Quoting ozglobal (Reply 11):
I never said THIS was the solution, I simply clarified the problem and the associated applicable law.

I just think its wrong and creates a two tier EU and we are all supposed to be equal with equal rights. This just highlights its not going to be anything other than a loose Union with some rights for some.

Can you imagine if Turkey with its 70 millioin strong population were integrated overnight into the EU with freedom of movement too? I'm all for strong links with Turkey and Romania, but societies cannot reach equilibrium overnight; it is like opening the gates on a series of locks on a canal at the same time. You have to take it one stage at a time...



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineviaggiare From Costa Rica, joined Jan 2007, 2120 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (3 years 12 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3526 times:

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 6):
more than 50 Roma sleeping in every doorway, street corner and even outside my front door, four at a time. They also keep large numbers of dogs
Quoting ozglobal (Reply 6):
they do nothing but ruse tourists and locals with innumerable scams, pickpocket in the metro and often use their children as begging bait by forcing them to lie on their laps

For some reason, you remind me of Borat talking about how he was once attacked by Gypsies: "they stole my wife, my plow, and they touch my horse in a very bad way... he got very depressed."



Entre le fort et le faible c’est la liberté qui opprime et la loi qui affranchit.
User currently offlineozglobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (3 years 12 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3510 times:

Quoting viaggiare (Reply 14):
For some reason, you remind me of Borat talking about how he was once attacked by Gypsies

Once you've been swarmed by them every day for years, you'll start to sound the same....



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (3 years 12 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3506 times:

Quoting OA260 (Thread starter):
Apparantly the EU is investigating if this complies with EU law but so much for one Europe and a Europe without borders. I guess its easy to pick on the Roma communities.

Apparently you haven't read "Animal Farm". 'All EU citizens are equal except some are more equal'.


User currently offlineJJJ From Spain, joined May 2006, 1817 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (3 years 12 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3487 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 10):
Why target the Roma?

It seems the Romanian government is collaborating on the issue, unlike Morocco and Algeria.

Today on TV they interviewed one of the expelled and said "very likely, we'll return as soon as we have the chance".

Plus, as someone said already, restrictions will expire on 2014, so it's just a short while until they can legally come back, though living in illegal camping sites or makeshift shanty towns means they will still be kicked around, their children taken away from parents if they don't send them to school and regular medical checks, etc.


User currently offlinen229nw From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1945 posts, RR: 32
Reply 18, posted (3 years 12 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3486 times:

I see this very much as a two way street. The roots of the problem go deep, and are very much the result of years of slavery (the Roma in Romania were enslaved until about 1860), and then intense discrimination in housing, education, employment, etc., coupled with a radical failure of leadership in the Romanian Roma communities themselves to do their part in pulling themselves out of the hole they are in. The situation is extra complicated, since, in principle, each country should largely deal with its own problems, and in this particular case, it shouldn't be France's issue to deal with--but on the other hand, discrimination against Roma in most Eastern European countries is bad enough that many want desperately to leave and find a job elsewhere. This, however, does not mean that people can just set up a camp somewhere and not work, and so forth, which is an issue primarily stemming from the particular Romany subculture and complex situation in Romania specifically, rather than Roma from the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Russia, the former Yugoslavia, etc., who are also despised and mistreated, but who are not the Roma in train stations and "camps" in Western European countries. Nor, however, are all Romanian Roma culturally similar, and certainly not all of them either are beggars and petty criminals!!! Though they share a common Indic language (in many dialects though!) and distant heritage, Roma are an extremely diverse group.

The Europe-wide solution is clear but not easy: on the one hand, Roma, like any other minority, should be held to the same laws as everyone else. On the other hand, there must start to be a real way to end discrimination in sentencing, and beyond that in employment, housing--and most of all: education. As anyone who has worked in a really hopeless housing project/estate/slum/shanty-town in ANY culture knows, breaking the cycle of dependency on welfare, alchohol and drugs, the falring up of corruption and extortion gangs, the lack of valuing of mainstream education, and so forth, is not the snap of a finger, and can take a couple of generations at least. But progress can be made. These are by no means problems unique to the Roma, despite the HUGE numbers of people one runs into ready to tell you they are genetic traits.

I am married to a European Romany woman, and believe me I have seen PLENTY of racism against Roma--BUT if people are in a country illegally and are harassing tourists and committing petty crimes, I have no problem with those particular people being sent back.

Begging with children is also horribly tacky and manipulative, though unfortunately, some of these beggars are the victims of gangmasters who force them into this practice.

Where I get upset is when people make racist generalizations, they are no different to the generalizations that have been made against other groups of recent immigrants or downtrodden people around the world at any time. And I am watching the effects this can have on my kids as they grow up.

Italy fingerprinting people solely due to their Romany ethnicity. That to me is a real problem, and different from France deporting people who are violating specific laws, assuming they are ONLY deporting those people who actually violate laws (including residency laws). On the other hand, people are quick to scapegoat Roma even when they are not responsible as well, because of ingrained prejudices.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 8):
I know people from the Roma community here and they are not the people you describe above, you cant tarnish a whole community.

      Thank you very much.   

As I've said elsewhere, through my wife's family and friends, I have met hundreds of Roma in Central and Eastern Europe, and I have talked to many others when travelling in many different countries, and the ones we know and associate with are normal people living normal lives, and while many are poor and do manual jobs, many others are middle-class teachers, journalists, businesspeople, musicians, nurses, firemen, medical students, even doctors, lawyers, and academics.

It is a problem when people refuse to notice or acknowledge that all these other people are also "real" Roma and when tarnish the whole group based on their experience being pickpocketed etc, or when people have to hide their ethnicity to get or keep their job or even their place in a school etc.



It's people like you what cause unrest!
User currently offlinen229nw From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1945 posts, RR: 32
Reply 19, posted (3 years 12 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3485 times:

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 15):
Quoting viaggiare (Reply 14):
For some reason, you remind me of Borat talking about how he was once attacked by Gypsies

Once you've been swarmed by them every day for years, you'll start to sound the same....

You do realize that Borat is making fun of anti-Tziganism, the same way he is making fun of anti-Semitism with his intense fear of Jews etc., right?



It's people like you what cause unrest!
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15730 posts, RR: 26
Reply 20, posted (3 years 12 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3485 times:

What on earth is wrong with Europeans that they would give up so much sovereignty? The common currency and Schengen agreement are good and practical, but "EU Law" and "EU Citizens?" Are they kidding? No one is an EU Citizen. You can be French, or German, or British, or Romanian, but you can't be an EU citizen. The French can make and enforce whatever visa, immigration, and citizenship laws they want.


Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineJJJ From Spain, joined May 2006, 1817 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (3 years 12 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3472 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 20):
No one is an EU Citizen

Of course we all are. After Maastricht every national of a EU state member is also an EU national.

"Citizenship of the Union is hereby established. Every person holding the nationality of a Member State shall be a citizen of the Union. Citizenship of the Union shall be additional to and not replace national citizenship"

And

"It is for each Member State, having due regard to Community law, to lay down the conditions for the acquisition and loss of nationality."


User currently offlineviaggiare From Costa Rica, joined Jan 2007, 2120 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (3 years 12 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3471 times:

Quoting n229nw (Reply 19):
Borat is making fun of anti-Tziganism, the same way he is making fun of anti-Semitism

Same with his anti-Uzbek vitriol, but that's really beside the point in this context.  



Entre le fort et le faible c’est la liberté qui opprime et la loi qui affranchit.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15730 posts, RR: 26
Reply 23, posted (3 years 12 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3411 times:

Quoting JJJ (Reply 21):
EU national.

You can't be a national of something that isn't a nation.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 21):
"Citizenship of the Union is hereby established.

OK. I'm a North American citizen, but what does that get me?

Quoting JJJ (Reply 21):
Citizenship of the Union shall be additional to and not replace national citizenship"

So it doesn't really get you anything.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 21):
"It is for each Member State, having due regard to Community law, to lay down the conditions for the acquisition and loss of nationality.

So each country does set its own laws with regard to citizenship and immigration.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinebabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (3 years 12 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3365 times:

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 2):
I thought people could still be deported even if they were a citizen of another EU country?

That's right. Also the EU laws always have exceptions and it is probably the case that the Roma people were given special status in the deal when Romania signed up.

It's not like these people were going to France to look for work.


25 Post contains images gkirk : Well said.
26 JJJ : Again, according to Maastricht and Rome treaties: * a right to access to European Parliament, Council, and Commission documents (Article 15). * a rig
27 Toulouse : Not totally true. Eu laws and directives, where conflicts arise, takes precedence of national laws An EU national has the right to work and live in a
28 Braybuddy : Supranational, so it's technically possible to use the word national, although "citizen" is usually the term used.
29 ozglobal : Yes, you are right. It is not a Schengen issue and my situation is specific as I am a resident and not a citizen.
30 BMI727 : What is wrong with Europe that they would make a deal like that? And what happens if they make a law in conflict with "EU Law?" Do they get invaded b
31 Post contains images Toulouse : Of course the EU Army invades us! I don't think anything is wrong with Europe because of this rule... don't really understand your question to be hone
32 offloaded : It's EU bolloxology, and entirely how you wish to read it. At no time will I ever refer to myself as EU citizen, because I share your view that you c
33 TheSonntag : The EU works by the rule of law and by the fact that all european member states have a strict seperation of powers. ALL courts from ALL EU member sta
34 N1120A : Sadly, not an uncommon thing in France. Especially regarding Roma. As you said yourself, you are a resident, not a citizen. EU Citizens are treated f
35 OzGlobal : Your comments sound like knee-jerk political correctness. You should think about that. So unless I accept unlimited, uncritical and open-ended immigr
36 Post contains images L410Turbolet : Who has problem to aknowledge "real" Roma whenever someone breaks from the vicious cycle of "different set values"? Romas ostracize their own who lea
37 iakobos : Xenophobia: an intense fear or dislike of foreign people, their customs and culture, or foreign things. Let's see, Roma (traditional types) live outs
38 MD11Engineer : 'I can confirm this from having known a Romanian Roma family quite well in Berlin in the 1990s. Back then the mother, who was living with her two dau
39 iakobos : EU citizens ? Citizenship: relationship between an individual and a State in which the individual owes allegiance to the State and in turn is entitled
40 prebennorholm : Not entirely true since there are few EU rules without exceptions. Danish voters turned down the Maastrict Treaty at a referendum in 1992, but accept
41 BMI727 : Sounds like there is a definite chance that it hits the fan someday. France is a sovereign state that should be able to make its own laws. Except tha
42 Post contains images n229nw : Wow...where to begin. 1.) In terms of "traditional" culture, that is only true of the most traditional Roma, most often from Romania, and some very s
43 MD11Engineer : I have to say that for myself (and most Germans as well) that I wouldn´t even recognised a Romany family name. And dark skin is normally no obstacle
44 N1120A : Not at all. The "you don't see them everyday" argument is one of the first out of the mouths of these ultra-nationalist, neo-nazi types. That isn't w
45 TheSonntag : Well yes, but those exceptions are part of the legal framework. When Denmark said no in 92, they got their "forbehold", so in fact the treaty was ame
46 n229nw : Yes, sorry if I wasn't clear. I am referring to countries East of Germany where there is a large Romany population that is the main and/or only dark-
47 Toulouse : With all respect, this shows a complete lack of understanding of the EU. If what you said were true, well then France should leave the EU. But France
48 OzGlobal : N1120A apart from pointing out the floors in the arguments of other posters (and perhaps their characters), I've seen on your part no constructive pr
49 TheSonntag : It is, but it has decided itself to limit its sovereignity on certain fields by ratifying all international treaties. And those treaties limit the po
50 iakobos : From (always Greek...) xenos: foreign, strange and phobia fear English definitions are from Webster, Encarta, My Dictionary, et al. Are you suggestin
51 BMI727 : Of course it is, but would you want Mexicans or Canadians getting to decide citizenship and immigration laws for America? I certainly would not. Well
52 iakobos : The cover of my passport mentions first... UNION EUROPEENNE EUROPESE UNIE EUROPAISCHE UNION and again (but in twelve languages) on the top of the fir
53 andaman : It's both. If I'm abroad outside EU and in serious trouble, I go to the Finnish embassy. If there isn't one, some other EU embassy helps me. Europe i
54 TheSonntag : Well the US doesnt need to, because it has the size itself to be independant. In Europe we found out in more than enough wars (WW1 and WW2 were only
55 Post contains links oa260 : EU presses France on Roma deportations The European Commission has criticised France over its expulsions of Roma (Gypsies) and has requested more info
56 BMI727 : Well, if they want to get together and pass things everybody already agrees on that's great, but eventually someone is going to disagree. So then do
57 Post contains links Quokka : Quoting BMI727: Except that you run into problems when the "community" is supra-national. The EU doesn't have embassies, or an army, or their own pass
58 Post contains links Braybuddy : There was a similar situation here in 2007 when a group of up to 100 Roma somehow managed to enter the country and set-up camp in the middle of a roun
59 shamrock604 : I agree with your views re the EU, OA260. We were promised a Europe without borders - instead, we have a patchwork of parts with immigration control,
60 Quokka : I agree that it can be very distressing to be confronted by people begging, as I have experienced in Italy. Please excuse my ignorance as I don't liv
61 N1120A : First, I don't necessarily agree that this is a significant social problem. Petty crime has existed since the dawn of the human species, and certainl
62 BMI727 : Why would we care or want to make legislation about what goes on in Mexico or Canada and why would we want their input here? I would not be at all ha
63 N1120A : Because other countries still have individual relationships with the individual countries. Would the US be giving up sovereignty, or would it be trad
64 shamrock604 : I cant believe we are having to explain this to a national of the "United States" of America. Each of your states gave up soverignty as part of your
65 BMI727 : Actually they gave up most of it. I don't have an Illinois passport and I've never seen a Delaware consulate. And a state governor doesn't need to si
66 TheSonntag : This is one of the most interesting questions of the future. So far the EU has a political culture of agreeing on compromises. It remains to be seen
67 RussianJet : Your general point is sound, but you may wish to study the fact that a British Citizen and a British Subject are not quite the same thing.
68 exFATboy : The European Union is, for lack of a better description, not a "nation", in the sense of being recognized by the other nations of the world as being
69 MD11Engineer : There is one exception: All EU embassies can represent any EU citizen in a third country. E.g. if I´ve got a serious problem while travelling abroad
70 prebennorholm : This is the opt-out needed by France today. Some countries saw the problem coming, France did not. When Denmark sent home a group of Romas a couple o
71 iakobos : The Romani ethnic group has a large web of sub-groups, branches and down to clans. Estimations range from 4 to 14 million (Europe) The largest subgro
72 n229nw : Just a little further information here to clarify: For all intents and purposes Romany/Romani/Rromani are synonyms of "Roma"--so Roma isn't really a
73 MD11Engineer : This post applies to the Irish and British "Travellers" (nomadic or semi-nomadic lifestyle, but not necessarily of Roma ethnicy). What I´ve noted in
74 TheSonntag : Well I work in a Danish - German law firm and we see this very opt - out hurting Denmark on many respects. In fact the problem became so big that Den
75 RussianJet : Free movement exists, irrespective of weather your identity and nationality are checked on arrival to the UK. Even within the Schengen zone you shoul
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