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Violence In Mexico  
User currently offlineracko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4857 posts, RR: 20
Posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2198 times:

The level of violence in Mexico is really getting scarier by the day. After the discovery of the massacre that killed 72 last week now an official investigating the massacre has been murdered as well.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...ico-massacre-investigator-migrants

It seems the drug cartels can really operate at will. I really don't see a way out of this for Mexico, the military crackdown hasn't worked at all, if anything, it only increased the violence.

45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2182 times:

Yep I do see any way out of it for them. Their police are not strong enough and Lord knows how many are bought by the cartels. I don't see this getting better anytime soon.

User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1724 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2176 times:

Either legalize and tax the stuff or sink to their standard by executing on the spot any cartel member caught, without trials or due process, since they probably don't deserve any.

User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8976 posts, RR: 39
Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2102 times:

As mentioned, three words: legalize, legalize, legalize.

But, easier said than done. If Mexico does this, will the UN push sanctions on them? Will the US, EU and other countries?

Damn if you do, damn if you don't. That's what it looks like right now to me.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2081 times:

Quoting Acheron (Reply 2):
or sink to their standard by executing on the spot any cartel member caught, without trials or due process, since they probably don't deserve any.

I have no problem terrorizing the cartels. About 18 years ago there was this ruthless governor in the state of Sonora who completely rid the state of kidnappers and cartels (granted they weren't as powerful as now but still). Basically as soon as they were found, they were usually executed in the spot, or the next day they just wound up dead somehow. He created a special SWAT team of sorts for that very purpose. He was very controversial but everybody remembers him for truly getting the job done.


User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2077 times:

Quoting Acheron (Reply 2):
Either legalize and tax the stuff or sink to their standard by executing on the spot any cartel member caught, without trials or due process, since they probably don't deserve any.

I am all for legalizing all drugs but the US won't do it. Some people in CA I talk to think it's the worst thing which I can't understand. As for the police executing people that would just jump start a war I am not sure they could win.


User currently offlinesantosdumont From Brazil, joined Dec 2003, 1201 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2070 times:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0...-hilton-arrested-on-_n_697849.html

As long as scum like Paris Hilton, her boyfriend du jour, Lindsay Lohan, young bucks on Wall Street and on Capitol Hill and their ilk continue fueling the exorbitant demand for cocaine in the United States, the cartels -- be they in Mexico, Colombia, or wherever else -- will continue operating, consolidating markets, and taking care of business in their own bloody, brutal fashion.

Contrary to what many Americans think, the problem is very much "up here" -- not just "down there".



"Pursuit Of Truth No Matter Where It Lies" -- Metallica
User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2065 times:

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 5):
As for the police executing people that would just jump start a war I am not sure they could win.

It doesn't have to be police. Just covert operatives. It would have to be a very very low key operation for it to work, kinda like what the Mossad has done in their assassinations, swift, quick, quiet. Basically, just having a bunch of high ranking cartel drug lords suddenly appear one morning dead without any real explanation will certainly send a shiver down the spines of many other drug lords. Sounds very Hollywoodesque but it's doable.

Maybe Mexico should hire some Mossad/CIA henchmen   


User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2063 times:

Quoting santosdumont (Reply 6):
As long as scum like Paris Hilton, her boyfriend du jour, Lindsay Lohan, young bucks on Wall Street and on Capitol Hill and their ilk continue fueling the exorbitant demand for cocaine in the United States, the cartels -- be they in Mexico, Colombia, or wherever else -- will continue operating, consolidating markets, and taking care of business in their own bloody, brutal fashion.

Contrary to what many Americans think, the problem is very much "up here" -- not just "down there".

I knew it was Paris' fault!   

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 7):
It doesn't have to be police. Just covert operatives. It would have to be a very very low key operation for it to work, kinda like what the Mossad has done in their assassinations, swift, quick, quiet. Basically, just having a bunch of high ranking cartel drug lords suddenly appear one morning dead without any real explanation will certainly send a shiver down the spines of many other drug lords. Sounds very Hollywoodesque but it's doable.

Maybe Mexico should hire some Mossad/CIA henchmen

Unfortunately it's passed that point. Any murder of a high ranking drug figure will just incite worst violence and the innocent people are getting caught in the crossfire. It has to be a heavy kind of attack that really hurts and kills many in one shot to have any effect which Mexico is not prepared to do.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8976 posts, RR: 39
Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2054 times:

Quoting santosdumont (Reply 6):

They will never stop. Nor will domestic consumption, which does happen and also drives a lot of violence. The problem is everywhere, not just "up here".

The only solution is decriminalization.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17825 posts, RR: 46
Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2041 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 3):
As mentioned, three words: legalize, legalize, legalize.

How would that work as we simultaneously demonize and legislate tobacco and cigarettes?

Quoting santosdumont (Reply 6):
Contrary to what many Americans think, the problem is very much "up here" -- not just "down there".

  



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2034 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 10):
How would that work as we simultaneously demonize and legislate tobacco and cigarettes?

Alcohol too but at least you don't see the people manufacturing it running around slaughtering people.


User currently offlinecaptaink From Mexico, joined May 2001, 5109 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2031 times:

Quoting Acheron (Reply 2):
Either legalize and tax the stuff or sink to their standard by executing on the spot any cartel member caught, without trials or due process, since they probably don't deserve any.

The problem is not the consumption of drugs in Mexico, nor it´s legality here, at least in my opinion.



There is something special about planes....
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17825 posts, RR: 46
Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2028 times:

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 11):
Alcohol too but at least you don't see the people manufacturing it running around slaughtering people.

Alcohol hasn't been taxed and legislated nearly as much as tobacco but I guess it would apply too. I don't see how lawyers currently using tobacco suits as their personal slush funds wouldn't do the same for much more damaging substances like heroin and cocaine. How would anyone market any of the substances without being sued to heaven and back?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2026 times:

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 11):
Alcohol too but at least you don't see the people manufacturing it running around slaughtering people.

One word: Prohibition. Same mess as with the current drug war. They legalized alcohol again, violence ended almost instantly.


User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4318 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1995 times:

It should be worth pointing out that a recent UN report stated that in homicides per 100k people, several central and south American countries still fared worse than Mexico.

Hugo Chavez apparently recently issued a edict banning media from showing pictures of violence in newspapers, after a daily published on their front page a photograph from the Caracas Public Morgue, showing the facility overwhelmed with unclaimed bodies, victims of the violence in Caracas which is now said to have the highest murder rate on the planet, nearly 200 per 100,000 (according to several reports and Venezuelan and international media)

http://english.eluniversal.com/2010/...h-crime-rates-mak_27A4390815.shtml


2010 estimated murder rates for western hemisphere nations (above 8 per 100k consiered ''epidemic'')

Venezuela - 74 per 100,000 (rising)
El Salvador - 71 per 100,000 (rising)
Honduras - 67 per 100,000 (stable)
Jamaica - 60 per 100,000 (rising)
Guyana - 57 per 100,000 (estimate)
Guatemala - 52 per 100,000 (rising)
Colombia - 35 per 100,000 (stable)
Belize -33 per 100,000 (rising)
Bahamas - 27 per 100,000 (rising)
Brazil - 26 per 100,000 (stable)
Dominican Republic - 24 per 100,000 (stable)
Ecuador - 19 per 100,000 (rising)
Puerto Rico -19 per 100,000 (stable)
Haiti - 18 per 100,000 (estimate)
Mexico - 17 per 100,000 (rising)
Nicaragua -16 per 100,000 (stable)
Panama - 13 per 100,000 (rising)
Suriname - 13 per 100,000 (rising)
Paraguay - 12 per 100,000 (stable)
Trinidad and Tobago - 12 per 100,000 (rising)
Barbados -12 per 100,000 (stable)
Costa RIca - 8 per 100,000 (stable)
- - - - - - - -
Peru - 6 per 100,000 (stable)
United States - 5.5 per 100,000 (down)
Argentina - 5 per 100,000 (down)
Uruguay - 4.5 per 100,000 (stable)
Chile - 3 per 100,000 (stable)
Bolivia - 3 per 100,000 (stable)
Canada - 2 per 100,000 (stable)



Mexico has a very violent, sedistic death rate. In other countries it's apparently far worse it's just that the form of killling is not as gruesome.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlinecaptaink From Mexico, joined May 2001, 5109 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1984 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 15):
Bahamas - 27 per 100,000 (rising)

This I find rather surprising.



There is something special about planes....
User currently offlinesantosdumont From Brazil, joined Dec 2003, 1201 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1936 times:

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 11):
Alcohol too but at least you don't see the people manufacturing it running around slaughtering people.

It helps if there's no crime associated with the profit motive. On another level, though, ask anyone to compare the effects -- "buzz," addictive quality, etc. -- of a drug like booze and one like crack cocaine and the reason for the staggering demand for the latter becomes crystal clear.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 8):
I knew it was Paris' fault!

Individuals like her are complicit with the cocaine cartels. People like her keep the crime syndicates in business. The cartels are just moving product to where demand is greatest...free market 101.

The fact that she'll no doubt get just a slap on the wrist doesn't help either.

I suspect none of us on this board would be Tweeting and kicking back watching "Family Guy" a couple of hours after being busted for possession of cocaine.



"Pursuit Of Truth No Matter Where It Lies" -- Metallica
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13200 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1898 times:

In the list of number of murders per year per 100,000 residents, as with Mexico, I would suspect most of the murders are over drugs and the drug trade. It remindes me of the rise of the cocaine trade in the mid-1980's and crack cocaine in the late 1980's-early 1990's with a huge run up in the murder rate in several metro areas of the USA, most notably Miani and NY Ctiy.

The problems that are particulary acute for Mexico is that it borders the USA and many innocents are getting caught in the crossfire, scaring away business investment (NAFTA and other trade) and toruists. Today (Saturday) there was a number of people murdered due to the drug trade in the major tourist city of Alcapolco, a place popular to many American toruist and cruise ships loaded with American tourist, and most of all, their money.

The most critical factors, to me, of this violence is the demand for illegal drugs in the USA and the massive economic imbalances in Mexico that encourges many to go for the drug trade to survive or get rich. Either take away the demand for drugs or cut out the financial benefits of the trade or make it so people won't have to be so driven into criminal enterprises (drugs, smuggling goods, smuggling people illegally into the USA).


User currently offlineSHAQ From Panama, joined Jun 2007, 387 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1891 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 15):
Panama - 13 per 100,000 (rising)

And people complain  

What calls my attention , is that no city in the Americas has a murder rate at downhill



Studying hard, for flying right!
User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1724 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1881 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 15):
Hugo Chavez apparently recently issued a edict banning media from showing pictures of violence in newspapers,

Chavez?.
How about the Courts since it was in violation of a Child's protection law?. And if there is a court that is effective and hard to corrupt is that court in particular.

And this is the picture in question, that caused the controversy, and yes, it was printed on front page like any cheap tabloid
(WARNING, GRAPHIC IMAGE)
http://impresodigital.el-nacional.com/ediciones/2010/08/13/PV/tapa.pdf
So, tell me, do you think that publishing should a picture in a national circulation newspaper, the kind of newspaper that's exhibited in plain sight in booths, is acceptable?.
If the purpose was to inform people, you could have do so with a smaller picture in the article inside, not huge ass front page picture. Plus there are claim that it is an old picture before the Morgue was fixed, but I don't know.

Quoting Derico (Reply 15):
victims of the violence in Caracas which is now said to have the highest murder rate on the planet, nearly 200 per 100,000 (according to several reports and Venezuelan and international media)

So, how you go from

Quoting Derico (Reply 15):
Venezuela - 74 per 100,000 (rising)

to nearly 200?.
Let me call bullcrap on that one.

In most cases, most of the deaths are between gang member or drug related crime. Doesn't make it any better, but its no civil war either. You'd be hard pressed to find the type of stuff Cartels do in Mexico, in Caracas.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 5):
I am all for legalizing all drugs but the US won't do it. Some people in CA I talk to think it's the worst thing which I can't understand.

Most people seem to think, that by legalizing it, everybody will turn a violent drug addict or something similar

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 13):
How would anyone market any of the substances without being sued to heaven and back?

Well, do like cigarettes, add a warning lable that mentions some of the consecuences of abusing drugs. Plus spread information on how similar campaings have worked in countries that have legalized hard drugs.

There is plenty of ways to deal with this far more efficiently and cheaply than trying to use an Army, specially since the people you are fighting against were trained by former Army members themselves.
Thats another issue, you are not fighting a bunch of opium-consuming bearded guys who shot AK's from the hip, you are fighting against well trained and well armed people in armored vehicles, who have enough money to bribe anyone and if you can't bribe them, they have enough contacts to kill them.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 4):
I have no problem terrorizing the cartels.

Me neither, but what about the Human Rights Organizations who are willing to protect even these scumbags and make a fuss everywhere about it?.


User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1862 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 18):
I would suspect most of the murders are over drugs and the drug trade.

Fortunately that seems to be the case, 95% of the time. People don't get killed randomly just because the drug lords decided to go on killing spree. But if you have even the slightest amount of business or interaction with these crooks, you're life is in danger. Almost all murders are a result of one gang/person getting even with another. Every once in a while unfortunately a mistake is made, and either the wrong people are targeted, or people get caught in a firefight.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 18):
Alcapolco
Acapulco  
Quoting Acheron (Reply 20):

Me neither, but what about the Human Rights Organizations who are willing to protect even these scumbags and make a fuss everywhere about it?.

We execute them too    


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8976 posts, RR: 39
Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1856 times:

Quoting Acheron (Reply 20):
Chavez?.
How about the Courts since it was in violation of a Child's protection law?. And if there is a court that is effective and hard to corrupt is that court in particular.

In his pockets. Child protection? That's grasping at straws.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 20):
And this is the picture in question, that caused the controversy, and yes, it was printed on front page like any cheap tabloid
(WARNING, GRAPHIC IMAGE)
http://impresodigital.el-nacional.com/ediciones/2010/08/13/PV/tapa.pdf
So, tell me, do you think that publishing should a picture in a national circulation newspaper, the kind of newspaper that's exhibited in plain sight in booths, is acceptable?.
If the purpose was to inform people, you could have do so with a smaller picture in the article inside, not huge ass front page picture. Plus there are claim that it is an old picture before the Morgue was fixed, but I don't know.

You, as well as the Venezuelan government, don't like it because it makes Chavez look bad. The whole of Latin America blames the high crime rate in the region on "inequality", but Chavez is showing us all what a fallacy that is.

[Edited 2010-08-28 22:53:00]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5743 posts, RR: 19
Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1824 times:

Quoting Acheron (Reply 20):
So, tell me, do you think that publishing should a picture in a national circulation newspaper, the kind of newspaper that's exhibited in plain sight in booths, is acceptable?.
If the purpose was to inform people, you could have do so with a smaller picture in the article inside, not huge ass front page picture.

In other words if there are no means to censor it completely, at leat move it somewhere where people won't see it? A picture speaks thousand words. And a picture often delivers a more powerful message that endless paragraphs describing it.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 20):
Quoting Derico (Reply 15):
Venezuela - 74 per 100,000 (rising)

to nearly 200?.

Even if it was "just" 74, isn't it bad enough?


User currently offlinedxing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1800 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 3):
As mentioned, three words: legalize, legalize, legalize.
Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 11):
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 10):
How would that work as we simultaneously demonize and legislate tobacco and cigarettes?

Alcohol too but at least you don't see the people manufacturing it running around slaughtering people.

There are still moonshine runners across the nation, and trucks of cigarettes still get hijacked to sold without the tax stamps on them. You can still find a "numbers" game if you look for it in States that have legal lotteries, just like you can find prostitutes in Las Vegas even though prostitution is legal just a few miles up the road. You don't see the violence now days like you did back in the 20's and 30's because the mob wised up and realized that being on the front page for killing each other in grusome and public ways was not good for business. Legalizing drugs won't make the pushers go away. They will sell their stuff cheaper than the government will allow legal dealers to and still be around.

Many of these people, all bound for illegal entry into the United States, are held for ransom by the cartels that not only deal in drug trafficking but in human trafficking as well. If they can't get their price and feel that they are going to lose money on the bunch, they cut their losses to be very crude. I suspect that is exactly what happened in this case. There appear to be a number of unmarked mass graves being found all over northern Mexico so this is not the first time this has happend nor will it be the last. Only when we properly secure the border and develop a system where a person can be documented at the border and given a fool proof way to be tracked while in the country as a guest worker will the problem lessen. In addition employers have to be given a fool proof way to check on a persons status and be held to high account if they are found to be violating the rules when hiring.

In Mexico we are going to have to do the same thing we did with Columbia in the 80's and 90's and help the government there break the back of the cartels. We've done it before we can do it again but Mexico has to want the help.


25 L410Turbolet : But does ordinary Mr. or Mrs. Smith in vast majority cases buy his/her bottle of Jack or pack of cigarettes properly taxed from a legal vendor or do
26 Post contains images babybus : Phew..at least the UK escaped that list. As the number of jobs available goes down you can expect more street violence. People need to earn money and
27 Derico : In most countries on that list with a very high murder rate, it is related to drugs and gangs. If you are not part of those, and don't venture in to
28 Derico : It's only a list of the Americas, it didn't include any country outside North, Central or South America. Though from what I've seen, EU murder rates
29 MaverickM11 : The reason it's in Mexico in the first place is because it was pushed out of Colombia. As long as the demand is unchanged, it will just go via anothe
30 AGM100 : There is something bigger going on in Mexico and south America .... the drug cartels are certainly in play but geopolitics is in motion as well. Simpl
31 Post contains images comorin : Like this?
32 PPVRA : I am all for gun rights but that will not solve this problem. The problem stems from gang versus gang versus police and military fights. The average
33 asuflyer05 : Decriminalizing the drug trade, I fear, will just legitimize the cartels.
34 Post contains images MaverickM11 : And then we'll have the Kennedy's part II
35 santosdumont : What we have in Mexico are, as you mentioned, organizations where money is no object -- neither is the law (that goes without saying). These cartels
36 dxing : Enough of them do to keep the criminals that service that end of the spectrum in business. With the sin tax placed on cigarettes I'd be willing to be
37 Post contains images OA412 : Meh, they're all still better than Detroit. . On a serious note, in 2008, the large US city in the US with the highest rate of murder/manslaughter wa
38 Pyrex : Well, surprised it took all of two posts for someone to start demonizing the U.S. and proposing we surrender to these criminal thugs. Yes, of course,
39 MaverickM11 : They just moved back to Peru.
40 OA412 : Are you seriously suggesting that this country's voracious appetite for cocaine is not partially to blame for all of this. It's basic supply and dema
41 PPVRA : Aside from voting people in office who maintain the current status quo, nothing really. Average citizens aren't causing the violence nor are the drug
42 santosdumont : But the Colombian cartels just didn't up and disappear. They have evolved and are now a political constituency just like any other. Correct. As long
43 PPVRA : The trafficking in persons is a separate issue from drug trafficking. That they have often been operating together is a matter of convenience for both
44 Post contains images Fly2HMO : As if being an illegal immigrant isnt enough to get you in trouble to begin with
45 StuckInCA : Interesting list. If I look at US states (instead of the US as a whole) it's pretty interesting too. The data I see includes "negligent manslaughter"
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