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Howard's Gun Legacy - 200 Lives Saved A Year  
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2923 posts, RR: 8
Posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2367 times:

This was a legacy of our former PM Howard here in OZ. And by the looks of things its worked a treat with suicides etc.

Interesting to see what the results of a gun by back would be in the USA. and other parts of the world where gun ownership is permitted ??

Any thoughts ?

http://www.smh.com.au/national/howar...s-saved-a-year-20100829-13xne.html

[Edited 2010-08-29 22:09:28]


Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 1, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2297 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
Any thoughts ?

Impressive assuming it is right. Mind you still impressive even if only half right.

Assuming the economics are even a quarter right, it give an equally impressive return per gun bought back.

Now I will just go and find a bullet proof vest, some flame retardant and what else have I forgotten?   


User currently offlinejohns624 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 936 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2253 times:

How could only 200 less suicides a year have a $500 million dollar economic impact? That's 2.5 million dollars per person. Considering that a lot of suicides are with people with money/employment problems, it seems like BS to me.

User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 3, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2234 times:

Quoting johns624 (Reply 2):
How could only 200 less suicides a year have a $500 million dollar economic impact? That's 2.5 million dollars per person.

Here you go.

cneill@wla.ca

why not ask her? Or wait until the paper is published. Which area was your PhD in economics in BTW? You might have a point, hers was in education outcomes.


User currently offlineoffloaded From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2009, 893 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2208 times:

200 people, assume they were young, assume they had a decent job... 200 people x 35 working years x $71,500 (average during their working life) = $500,500,000.

Quite a few assumptions in my post though. Maybe they were all miners....

From Livingin-australia.com:

State Average - Annual Wage
Tasmania $55,103
South Australia $59,223
Northern Territory $61,771
Victoria $62,748
Queensland $63,866
New South Wales $65,707
Western Australia $70,210
Capital Territory $75,348

Australia’s best-paid workers are miners, with ordinary earnings averaging A$103,111 a year.

Average Full Time Ordinary Time Earnings February 2010 By Industry
Business Sector Average Annual Wage
Accommodation, Cafes and Restaurants $46,306
Retail Trade $48,703
Other Services $50,742
Arts and Recreation Services $56,971
Manufacturing $58,292
Transport, Postal, Warehousing $60,018
Health Care and Social Assistance $62,036
Wholesale Trade $62,457
Administrative and Support Services $62,884
Rental, Hiring and Real Estate Services $63,175
Construction $65,816
Public Administration and Safety $68,177
Education and Training $68,921
Electricity, Gas, Water and Waste Services $71,557
Financial and Insurance Services $76,487
Information Media and Telecommunications $77,033
Professional, Scientific and Technical Services $77,761
Mining $103,111



To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 30
Reply 5, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2194 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
Any thoughts ?

You're wrong.

Taking guns away from legal, law abiding citizens is not the answer. I am curious how it has done for violent crime. Funny thing about gun laws. Criminals don't care about them.



Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10238 posts, RR: 26
Reply 6, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2164 times:
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Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 5):
You're wrong.

He's wrong about what? No real opinion offered in the opening post either for or against gun ownership.

I'm not against gun ownership. But if the claimed cutback in suicide rates is real (and there's no other reason why that happened), then I'd say it's a legitimate point.



How can I be an admiral without my cap??!
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2161 times:

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 5):
I am curious how it has done for violent crime. Funny thing about gun laws. Criminals don't care about them.

Funny thing about guns over here, the police do care about them and they do not appreciate them in non licenced hands.

Get your information here:

http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/homicide.aspx

Over the past 18 years (1 July 1989 to 30 June 2007), the rate of homicide incidents decreased from 1.9 in 1990-91 and 1992-93 to the second-lowest recorded rate, of 1.3, in 2006-07.

Murder is the predominant charge and has been throughout the 18-year data-collection period. In 2006-07, there were 230 murder charges, 28 manslaughter charges, one infanticide charge, and one unknown. The type of charge against an offender may change once the incident proceeds through the judicial process.

In 2006-07, there were 260 homicide instances, involving 266 victims and 296 offenders.

Note: The majority of homicide data presented below is derived from two main sources with different data collection cycles. The charts and tables derived from the Institute's National Homicide Monitoring Program data set is collected on a financial year cycle. The other charts and tables are based on ABS data which is collected on a calendar year cycle.


From one of the graphs:

The figure shows that although there have been fluctuations from year to year, the number of homicide incidents has shown a steady decline since the inception of the NHMP in 1989. 2006-07 saw the second-lowest number of homicide incidents in the collection period.
and
* The percentage of homicides committed with a firearm continued a declining trend which began in 1969. In 2003, fewer than 16% of homicides involved firearms. The figure was similar in 2002 and 2001, down from a high of 44% in 1968.

BTW in most cases we are able to tell the difference between murder and suicide although it does get tricky at times.   


User currently offlineMudboy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1167 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2151 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
Any thoughts ?

Ok, my thoughts are:
common sense would say, if there are fewer cars on the road, there would be fewer deaths from car accidents.

If someone REALLY wants to end their life, they will find a way to do it. In the states, where guns are more available, more people will use a gun to end their life. When I was in London on holiday, I could not count how many times the subway or train was delayed, due to someone jumping in front of it? On time it was 3 times in one day , I knew of. You don't hear about people jumping in front of trains as much in the US, because we have guns. So what would happen if there were fewer trains in the UK?


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 9, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2141 times:

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 8):

If someone REALLY wants to end their life, they will find a way to do it. In the states, where guns are more available, more people will use a gun to end their life. When I was in London on holiday, I could not count how many times the subway or train was delayed, due to someone jumping in front of it? On time it was 3 times in one day , I knew of. You don't hear about people jumping in front of trains as much in the US, because we have guns. So what would happen if there were fewer trains in the UK?

Perhaps you might like to read this

http://www.springerlink.com/content/760g24xg13575717/
Understanding suicide in Australian farmers

Fiona Judd, Henry Jackson, Caitlin Fraser, Greg Murray, Garry Robins and Angela Komiti

And this
http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1440-1614.2002.00975.x
Results: In the period 1988 to 1997, 921 suicides were identified. The majority of these suicides were farm managers (67.4%). Farm manager suicides occurred predominantly in older age groups (55 + years). In comparison agricultural labourer suicides were younger, with the majority of suicides occurring in the 15–39 years age group. The most common methods for both groups were firearms (particularly hunting rifles and shot guns), hanging and motor vehicle exhaust gas. These methods accounted for approximately 81% of all male farm suicides. Firearms accounted for 51% of male farm suicide, in comparison to 23% for the wider Australian male population for the same period. Estimated age standardized rates per 100 000 for male farm managers for the 10-year period ranged from 24.8 to 51.4. For male agricultural labourers these rates ranged from 23.5 to 41.9. Analyses also revealed a negative correlation (r = –0.75, p vent the general conclusions cited in the OP being the case.

You might also want to read Beyond Blue on the subject.

http://www.beyondblue.org.au/index.aspx?link_id=105.898&oid=888

The prolonged drought that followed the gun buy back (not causal AFAIK) would have been expected to cause a rise in farm suicides.


User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 30
Reply 10, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2132 times:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
Funny thing about guns over here, the police do care about them and they do not appreciate them in non licenced hands.

You missed the point. We have gun laws too. The CRIMINAL doesn't care about laws. Hence why increased gun legislation hurts no one except legal, law abiding citizens.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 6):
He's wrong about what?

That banning guns was such a good idea.

As for the suicide issue, even if 200 less people ended up not killing themselves with a gun, I'm sure they can find another way. OD, jumping off a building, hanging, standing in front of a train. So I suppose he would next be glad to see buildings, rope and trains outlawed too?

And iirc, the whole point of the Australian gun buy back was not to reduce the suicide rate, but rather to take guns off the streets, and once again, out of the hands of law abiding citizens.

[Edited 2010-08-30 09:17:18]


Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8730 posts, RR: 42
Reply 11, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2104 times:

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 10):
You missed the point. We have gun laws too. The CRIMINAL doesn't care about laws. Hence why increased gun legislation hurts no one except legal, law abiding citizens.

He gave you the data.

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 10):
As for the suicide issue, even if 200 less people ended up not killing themselves with a gun, I'm sure they can find another way. OD, jumping off a building, hanging, standing in front of a train. So I suppose he would next be glad to see buildings, rope and trains outlawed too?

RTFA:

Quote:
Whereas the earlier study had found an increase in suicides by other methods, suggesting substitution, Dr Neill's study found no evidence of substitution within any state.

''It is simply not the case that there was an increase in non-firearm suicide deaths in states that brought back more firearms,'' she said.

''I am confident these lives were saved.''

Most of Australia's 2100 suicides each year do not involve firearms, making the 200 lives saved as a result of the firearm ban small in relation to the suicide total.

So yes, despite everything the gun lobby tells you, the buy-back has had a noticeable effect.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineMudboy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1167 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2090 times:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
The prolonged drought that followed the gun buy back (not causal AFAIK) would have been expected to cause a rise in farm suicides.



OK, I do not understand why farmers are the target group in Australia, is it because they own more guns, or are they the largest number of suicides by profession?

Coming from MS, which is very big in farming, I do not understand why farming is so stressful in Australia?

The age groups of suicides are the same in the US.

Who is to say, that the buy back of guns, had a direct effect on the number of suicides, how does one forcast the number of expected suicides?

Stay Safe!


User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 30
Reply 13, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2091 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 11):
So yes, despite everything the gun lobby tells you, the buy-back has had a noticeable effect.

So spending millions of dollars to take guns away from people law abiding citizens who may never ever contemplate suicide or committing a crime was worth it? To save 200 lives? A nanny state move at its finest.



Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10238 posts, RR: 26
Reply 14, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2074 times:
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Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 10):
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 6):
He's wrong about what?

That banning guns was such a good idea.

I understand what you meant. He just didn't say that anywhere in his post that I could see.

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 10):
As for the suicide issue, even if 200 less people ended up not killing themselves with a gun, I'm sure they can find another way. OD, jumping off a building, hanging, standing in front of a train. So I suppose he would next be glad to see buildings, rope and trains outlawed too?

True. However, there probably are a certain percentage of people who don't really want to kill themselves, but end up doing it because they have ready access to a gun.

Again, I don't think it warrants banning them. People who want to commit suicide have much larger problems than where to get the gun. But I also don't think it's black and white.

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 12):
Who is to say, that the buy back of guns, had a direct effect on the number of suicides, how does one forcast the number of expected suicides?

You don't. But if you had an average of, say, 1000 suicides for the last 20 years, and then you ban guns, and the average suicide rate drops to 800 suicides a year for the next few years, there's probably a correlation.



How can I be an admiral without my cap??!
User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 30
Reply 15, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2065 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 14):
He just didn't say that anywhere in his post that I could see.
Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
This was a legacy of our former PM Howard here in OZ. And by the looks of things its worked a treat with suicides etc.

Implied to me he is happy with the gun ban.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 14):
but end up doing it because they have ready access to a gun.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. A gun is only the mechanism thru which they killed themselves. As an example, There are 5 rifles in our house. All are in a locked gun safe. If I wanted to off myself it would take me less time to find a knife, some rope or a handful of pills.



Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8971 posts, RR: 39
Reply 16, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2045 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
Interesting to see what the results of a gun by back would be in the USA. and other parts of the world where gun ownership is permitted ??

If you look at the following list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

You really see no correlation at all between gun rights and no gun rights and suicide rates. There are several EU nations with higher suicide rates than the US, while several with lower rates as well. Australia is just slightly lower than the US.

[Edited 2010-08-30 10:30:00]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineMudboy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1167 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2036 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 16):

If you look at the following list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

You really see no correlation at all between gun rights and no gun rights and suicide rates. There are several EU nations with higher suicide rates than the US, while several with lower rates as well. Australia is just slightly lower than the US.

[Edited 2010-08-30 10:30:00]

Wait, are those crickets I hear chirping????????

Great Post PPVRA  


User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10238 posts, RR: 26
Reply 18, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2000 times:
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Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 15):
Implied to me he is happy with the gun ban.

Fair enough. Just didn't seem that way to me.

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 15):
I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. A gun is only the mechanism thru which they killed themselves. As an example, There are 5 rifles in our house. All are in a locked gun safe. If I wanted to off myself it would take me less time to find a knife, some rope or a handful of pills.

I'm not saying it happens in the majority of cases, or even many. But I'm sure there are people around who are on the fence about suicide, and end up doing it because they have a gun in their hand.

I think that if I were contemplating suicide, it would be much more palatable to put a bullet in my brain than to try and slice my neck/wrists or hang myself.

But who knows - like I said, people who want to kill themselves have bigger problems than where to find the instrument of their death. I just don't think it's black and white.



How can I be an admiral without my cap??!
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8730 posts, RR: 42
Reply 19, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1977 times:

If someone is going to kil himself, which of these options will seem most "attractive"?

- slow and extremely horrifying death by strangulation because your makeshift gallows didn't break your neck
- being rescued by EMS at the last moment and living the rest of your life with severe brain damage because you took too few pills
- fainting and being found by your family as you lay blood-soaked in the bathtub with your wrists cut in the "wrong" manner, then being confined to a psychiatric ward
- a very quick death brought on by a large caliber bullet

Law-abiding owner or not, a gun is still the most effective "tool" for killing quickly and reliably.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1973 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
nteresting to see what the results of a gun by back would be in the USA.

The U.S. also does gun buy backs as a matter of fact. It is not required to sell your guns to get destroyed.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8971 posts, RR: 39
Reply 21, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1949 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 19):
- being rescued by EMS at the last moment and living the rest of your life with severe brain damage because you took too few pills
- fainting and being found by your family as you lay blood-soaked in the bathtub with your wrists cut in the "wrong" manner, then being confined to a psychiatric ward

Do these people get counted as suicide anyways? If not, you'd have to adjust the numbers for a fair comparison. Not much of a difference between being brain dead or completely dead.

[Edited 2010-08-30 12:56:51]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15809 posts, RR: 27
Reply 22, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1920 times:

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 5):

Out of curiosity, how come the "just legalize it" argument people have with drugs doesn't apply to guns? If you crack down on guns, the people who use them to commit crimes are still going to have them right? Just like people who want drugs are able to get drugs.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineSpringbok747 From Australia, joined Nov 2004, 4387 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1915 times:

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 10):
You missed the point. We have gun laws too. The CRIMINAL doesn't care about laws. Hence why increased gun legislation hurts no one except legal, law abiding citizens.

Exactly.

It is quite a labourious procedure to get a firearm license here, you have to attend a 1 day class and pass a written test about firearm safety, then become a member of a shooting club, and the club instructor has to sign you off on your competency. Then it gets sent off to the firearms branch (the local police), there is a 28 day cooling off period (in case you change your mind). After all that, you'll have to wait another week - 10 days to get your actual license. Then you can head off to the gun store..but you cant buy your dream gun yet...apply for another permit (this time for the actual firearm), wait 28 days, if approved (almost always the case), then you can have your gun! Then you will have to register that firearm at the local police station ($35 a firearm).

So as you can see..it is a long, bureaucratic process to get a gun legally.

Or you can skip the whole thing...

http://www.theleader.com.au/news/loc...-raid-nets-guns-bombs/1504859.aspx

Funny how any legislation only affects law abiding citizens..

Quoting aloges (Reply 19):
- slow and extremely horrifying death by strangulation because your makeshift gallows didn't break your neck
- being rescued by EMS at the last moment and living the rest of your life with severe brain damage because you took too few pills
- fainting and being found by your family as you lay blood-soaked in the bathtub with your wrists cut in the "wrong" manner, then being confined to a psychiatric ward
- a very quick death brought on by a large caliber bullet

Law-abiding owner or not, a gun is still the most effective "tool" for killing quickly and reliably.
Hanging was the predominant method of suicide in most countries included in the analysis (Table 1). The highest proportions were around 90% in men and 80% in women, as observed in eastern Europe (i.e. Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and Romania). There were a number of deviations from the predominant pattern. As might be expected, firearm suicide was the most common method in the United States, but was also prevalent in Argentina, and Uruguay, although only men used this method in Argentina. Jumping from a height (designated as falls in the figures) plays an important role in small, predominantly urban societies such as Hong Kong SAR, Luxembourg and Malta. In contrast, in rural Latin American countries (e.g. El Salvador, Nicaragua and Peru), Asian countries (e.g. the Republic of Korea and Thailand) and also in Portugal, poisoning with pesticides was a major problem, notably among women. Poisoning with drugs was common in women from Canada, the Nordic countries and the United Kingdom. It also played an important role in male suicide in these countries.

AFAIK lots of people in Finland and parts of Europe have firearms..but that was not the preferred method of suicide.

Hanging was the most prevalent suicide method among both males (54.3%) and females (35.6%). For males, hanging was followed by firearms (9.7%) and poisoning by drugs (8.6%); for females, by poisoning by drugs (24.7%) and jumping from a high place (14.5%).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2569832/



אני תומך בישראל
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13169 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1871 times:

We just had a gun buying program this weekend in my home county in New Jersey. Something like 700 guns were collected with some getting cash fees of $50-150. While some guns primarly used by criminals were turned in, most were old, broken or otherwise unused hunting guns and handguns, WWII souveniers along with illegal fireworks, other dangerous weapons (a crossbow), bullits and shotgun shells. The county police will also check these guns for any criminal connections. Still this means these guns are no longer avilable to be stolen, sold to criminals or used in anger or accidently used.

[Edited 2010-08-30 17:12:05]

25 Post contains images Baroque : I cited farmers because they are a well known and studied problem group. There are other groups. In part their problems are well known because there
26 Post contains images TheCommodore : I suggest you read the article, then you have a better understanding of how it stacks up. No I'm not, you are! To commit suicide in this country is i
27 Starbuk7 : So, if you commit suicide they will arrest you and put you in jail, I find that very odd. I do agree with Cadet on this one though.
28 Baroque : Ah my childhood memory was not failing me: In early English common law, an adult who committed suicide was literally a felon, and the crime was punis
29 Post contains links TheCommodore : This will shed a little light on the topic. Cant seem to find any info on my state of NSW in Australia, but I'm pretty sure that if you attempt suici
30 Post contains images AirframeAS : Eh? Come again? If it is illegal, then how do you punish the person who committed suicide if he is.. ahem.... dead.
31 Post contains images PPVRA : And here I thought they were only suppose to affect criminals. . . silly me!!
32 TheCommodore : This is the law, up until recently, although it is one of those "really ever used laws" and obviously one that hes no outcome. It may have been annul
33 Post contains images Springbok747 : Did I mention anywhere that we should not have laws?! Any law affects only law abiding people. We can have all the laws in the world (not just relate
34 AirframeAS : But you still didn't answer this: Well??
35 Post contains images Baroque : An answer to that too. The old tradition was they were not buried in hallowed ground thus sentencing their soul to eternal purgatory or probably wors
36 TheCommodore : What I meant to say was this, but obviously didn't. The law is not only there for the law abiding as you say, its also there for the guilty/non law a
37 AirframeAS : No, it doesn't. It states this..... I want to know what Aussie law says, not the English law. Isn't Australia no longer English ruled??? Isn't Austra
38 Post contains links TheCommodore : This is what I can find on the net regarding suicide in Australia. "Attempted Suicide is now an offence only in the Northern Territory." The site is
39 Post contains links Baroque : Might be news, but Australia inherited English Common Law. So unless something is specifically changed it like as not remains under ECL. You might be
40 SpeedyGonzales : I think the buy-back is a very good idea. We haven't had the same in Norway, but we've had a firearm-amnesty thwice, where people could hand in illega
41 Post contains links and images Baroque : Why not refer to the Government about legal matters? http://www.dfat.gov.au/facts/legal_system.html The common law system, as developed in the United
42 AirframeAS : Wikipedia is a hearsay response. Try again. Wow, that is a lot of firepower!
43 Aesma : Because you can be a drug addict, but not a gun addict. Because drugs are used for fun or "at worst" killing yourself, whereas guns are used to kill
44 Baroque : And are we to be told that DFAT is hearsay. Why not try again with an objection that is better founded? Very true, and when gun ownership is not the
45 AirframeAS : I have nothing to try. Why not provide ME with a real law to back that up that is currently on Australia's books. Link me with a URL that goes to Aus
46 Ken777 : Well, since most "illegal guns" in the hands of criminals come from home burglaries the reduction in guns in the honest population will lower crimina
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