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Did Obama "Miss His Chance"?  
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8276 posts, RR: 8
Posted (4 years 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3459 times:

Interesting article in the NY Times today on Obama missing his chance

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/09/us/politics/09bai.html?_r=1&hp

The article breaks out the urgent spending to avoid a depression with the long term investments the country needs to make in order to compete internationally in the future.

Quote:
In this way, Mr. Obama risked confusing the voters — and not for the first time. By consistently conflating short-term and long-term economic goals, the president and his party may have missed an opportunity to explain the crucial difference between the two, and they have all but ensured that voters this fall will give them credit for neither.
Quote:
There were thoughtful liberals who argued, as far back as the 1980s, that policymakers needed to distinguish in the public mind between basic domestic spending, much of which goes to sustain less affluent and older Americans day to day, and the kind of public investments that might give future workers better access to the new economy.
Quote:
What happened, instead, was this: The administration turned control of the roughly $800 billion stimulus package over to Congress. Congress decided that the most expedient thing to do was to throw every kind of expenditure one could think of, short-term and long-term, into a single bill, because the public was willing to spend the money right then and the legislative politics required addressing the demands of disparate constituencies.

This is what Rahm Emanuel, the White House chief of staff, meant when he said that you “should never let a serious crisis go to waste” — that the stimulus bill had to pack in as much investment as possible, because the chance to spend on such transformative priorities might not come again.

Whether or not this was sound economic policy, it was a fateful decision. The long-awaited teachable moment about the need for long-term investment was lost. Mr. Obama would later try, fitfully, to explain the separate need for public investment. But more often, he has done what he did again this week, which is to emphasize the argument that making investments in infrastructure is worthwhile mostly to stimulate the sluggish economy in the short run.

As someone old enough to remember road trips before the Interstate System I'm well aware of the need for infrastructure in this country. And of the need to maintain it.

I also believe in focusing part of stimulus money on longer term projects. If I went back to where I lived during my elementary school years I will still be able to find sidewalks with "WPA" stamped in them.

Anyway, it's solid thinking that will be lost until after the elections, then "may" return to public thinking.

125 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinevio From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 1427 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (4 years 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3445 times:

Hmmm.... just one question. Why does everyone blame Obama?

The United States of America had this coming for a long time. The whole world had this coming for a long time... Americans with their unionized "$25 / hour assembly line floor sweepers", huge markups, etc can't compete with the Chinese who make but a small fraction of that.

Everyone blames Obama ... Obama wasn't even born when this started to happen. What he's trying to do is salvage what he can of his country and people and I think, instead of being united, Americans are more divided than ever. Sad to see the American "empire" collapse, but it will happen... Gradually...

Americans will have to get used to living with mom and dad until they're 30, have a family of 4 leave in a 2 bedroom apartment, etc. The American dream is dead gentlemen, and blaming one individual, or the government is not going to solve anything. The best way to deal with this is accept that we will have a much lower standard of living.

  



Superior decisions reduce the need for superior skills.
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8276 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (4 years 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3412 times:

Quoting vio (Reply 1):
Americans with their unionized "$25 / hour assembly line floor sweepers

Look at the cost of living these days. And compare the distance between the highest paid employee (including CEOs) and the lowest. That ratio has changed dramatically in the past 50 years. $25 and hour is $50K a year.

Quoting vio (Reply 1):
huge markups

I spent enough time in retailing to understand that keystone (doubling cost) might result in a net profit of 2 - 3% of sales. If you'e lucky. Big box stores can get away with a lot less simply because they cut costs - especially payroll. With good retailers you pay for what you get, and get what you pay for.

Quoting vio (Reply 1):
can't compete with the Chinese who make but a small fraction of that.

Over the years China will have increased wages and other costs - just like Japan had. Why else would they be the best market that Buick has? They are undergoing dramatic changes and it is slowly filtering down through the workforce. Maybe India will be the next focus for developing new production infrastructure.

Quoting vio (Reply 1):
The American dream is dead gentlemen, and blaming one individual, or the government is not going to solve anything.

The American dream isn't dead, but it was sure sidetracked over the years when greed was more important than country. It does have a good chance to return if we return to our core values, set aside the ridiculous poitical split we have and return to being Americans.


User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (4 years 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3382 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 2):
Look at the cost of living these days. And compare the distance between the highest paid employee (including CEOs) and the lowest. That ratio has changed dramatically in the past 50 years. $25 and hour is $50K a year.

Cost of living is rising because our government spends money like it grows off of trees, regulations have made things costlier like health care, special interests haven't helped either....



Our Returning Champion
User currently offlinealberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2921 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3379 times:

the correct solution is to keep spending so jobs can be created and economic recovery and prosperity come sooner.


short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39886 posts, RR: 74
Reply 5, posted (4 years 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3318 times:

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 3):
Cost of living is rising because our government spends money like it grows off of trees,

Like the war in Iraq?
What about the over-valued real estate in many parts of the country? Are the cost of goods the result of government spending?

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 3):
special interests haven't helped either....

Enviornmentalist have prohibited lots of develpoment and expansion.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 2):
The American dream isn't dead, but it was sure sidetracked over the years when greed was more important than country.

  



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineQXatFAT From Israel, joined Feb 2006, 2404 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (4 years 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3309 times:

Quoting alberchico (Reply 4):
the correct solution is to keep spending so jobs can be created and economic recovery and prosperity come sooner.

This is only true if the money being spent is from the private sector and NOT tax paying dollars from the government to creat more government jobs. That just equals to more taxation. The key to a growing economy and job creation MUST be through the private sector.



Don't Tread On Me!
User currently offlinevio From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 1427 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (4 years 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3303 times:

Not to sidetrack this conversation, but am I the only one in this world that feels like America is run by corportions / interest groups and not by the people? (through their elected leaders)...


Superior decisions reduce the need for superior skills.
User currently offlineEmirates773ER From Pakistan, joined Jun 2005, 1449 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (4 years 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3297 times:

Quoting vio (Reply 7):
Not to sidetrack this conversation, but am I the only one in this world that feels like America is run by corportions / interest groups and not by the people? (through their elected leaders)...

You are not the only one. What is happening in the US today was a long time coming. When people start living out of their means, they are just buying time till they hit bankruptcy. In this case its not one person but the whole country itself.



The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
User currently offlineQXatFAT From Israel, joined Feb 2006, 2404 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (4 years 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3272 times:

Quoting vio (Reply 7):

I would think most of America knows that intrest groups have a say in what goes on around here. A lot of people in America get letters to join AARP, NRA, and other various groups.



Don't Tread On Me!
User currently offlinevio From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 1427 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (4 years 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3227 times:

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 9):
You are not the only one. What is happening in the US today was a long time coming. When people start living out of their means, they are just buying time till they hit bankruptcy. In this case its not one person but the whole country itself

Indeed! That's exactly what I believe as well... Wait... no, it's more than believe. I KNOW SO. I have so many friends who are "mortgage poor". They spend more than 75% of their income on housing. It's ridiculous when a 1 bedroom, 600 sq. ft. condo in Vancouver costs 300,000 dollars. Factor in the interest, condo fees, etc etc. you end up paying 600,000 for it. You are a slave to the banks just to have a roof over your head.

On top of that, you're always tempted / "offered" to buy things you really don't need.

What's wrong with a normal cell phone? If you want to justify that you need an iPhone for work that's fine too, but what's wrong with the one you bought last year? Do you really need to change your phone every 2 years? Do you really need to change your TV that often.... or car? How about clothes? How about that $10,000 credit card with 18% interest... and more...

I think we Americans are gready. And by AMERICANS I mean NORTH AMERICANS. Canada falls under the same category when it comes to living WAY BEYOND OUR MEANS...

Look, a lot of people are responsible, but I can safely say, that the majority are not responsible with money. How many of you here have no debt and savings you can live on for at least 6 months? You don't have to answer that, but be honest with yourself...



Superior decisions reduce the need for superior skills.
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39886 posts, RR: 74
Reply 11, posted (4 years 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3212 times:

Quoting vio (Reply 11):
They spend more than 75% of their income on housing. It's ridiculous when a 1 bedroom, 600 sq. ft. condo in Vancouver costs 300,000 dollars.




Ok so what part of Vancouver has a 1 bedroom, 600 sq. ft. condo for $50,000 or less?
Just because people spend a high percentage of their income on housing doesn't mean they are doing that out of "greedy".
For many working people, they have no choice because there is no available housing that suits their income.

Quoting vio (Reply 11):
Do you really need to change your phone every 2 years? Do you really need to change your TV that often.... or car? How about clothes?




I'm with you on that one.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3283 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (4 years 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3179 times:

Quoting vio (Reply 1):
The American dream is dead gentlemen, and blaming one individual, or the government is not going to solve anything. The best way to deal with this is accept that we will have a much lower standard of living.

I am not so sure that "the dream" is dead, but I think the "dream" is much more realistic. However, if the erosion of our confidence that the future is brighter than past generations of Amercans is threatening to destroy the social and the political fabric of America - look at the rise of the "Tea Party" and the complete lack of political bipartisanship in the power-mad city of Washington, DC.


I believe that the "Dream" still exists for those who are taught to work hard and sacrifice for it. I also believe it exists for the wealthy or those for whom government policy and the law favor.

As it turns out, the "greatest generation" did much better than subsequent generations of Americans - they were a "once in history" generation. Yes they were extraordinary people in extraordinary times - they fought horrible wars and survived the great Depression, but they returned to a period of prolonged economic growth after World War 2. They had jobs with retirement benefits, opportunities for paid college education (with the GI bill and other programs) and benefiitted from generally strong investment from government in new technologies (space missions, nuclear power, new high-tech weaponry developed to fight the "Cold War", etc.) and infrastructure (interstate highway systems, rural electrification). That had never existed before and it doesn't look like it will EVER happen again - unless there's a World War III (God forbid).

Bottom line: I'm not going to be economically better off than my parents or many from their generation. I am not buying new cars every 3 or 4 years like my parents, or going on vacation nearly as much as they did. The federal government is going broke from the entitlement systems (Social Security was NEVER intended to support retirees for 20-25 years after retiring - life expectancy wasn't nearly that long in the 1930's) and the subsequent expansions of Medicare to earn political favor from senior citizens has bankrupted the nation because of the failure of our elected officials to effectively govern the nation for the past 30 years. Our standard of living is in free-fall, IMHO.

Obama just happens to be the President when the "Dream is dead" reality has finally dawned on the American public.



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (4 years 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3162 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
What about the over-valued real estate in many parts of the country? Are the cost of goods the result of government spending?

Yes, in the case of real estate...homes were built and then given to people who couldn't afford them in the first place thanks to the government...
That was actually the Clinton Administration's fault...It's called social engineering....

And as for the spending....
$187 billion here, $30 billion there, $787 billion there, $50 billion more here...
And what do we have to show for it?



Our Returning Champion
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (4 years 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3141 times:

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 3):
Cost of living is rising because our government spends money like it grows off of trees, regulations have made things costlier like health care, special interests haven't helped either....

  

Yes Obama screwed up bigtime. He tricked the middle into thinking he would govern like a moderate Democrat and instead went back to his liberal far left vision of big government. Now the country has rejected him and Pelosi. He could have had 8 years easy and congress to if he just listened to the right people. Rahm was right that the people like Joan Walsh, Rachel Maddow, Jane Hamsher, George Soros and Arianna Huffington were "*ing *etarded" and that the UAW was a bunch of idiots. That is why he is leaving and going back to Chicago. Heck even Gibbs called them out. The Obama admin did the hard part and screwed up the easy part. He will lose his congress in two months and I doubt he can get a second term at this point.


User currently offlineAustrianZRH From Austria, joined Aug 2007, 1385 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3120 times:

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 14):
He will lose his congress in two months and I doubt he can get a second term at this point.

I think it's too early for that call. As a comparison, Bill Clinton's approval rating was down to about 40% at a similar time in office, comparable to Obama's right now, and he was reelected.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/116584/pr...approval-ratings-bill-clinton.aspx

Or to give a republican example, Reagan's approval rating was down to 35% in January '83, and he was reelected in '84.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/116677/pr...-historical-statistics-trends.aspx

I'm not saying that Obama will get a second term, I just think that too much can happen in two years. And history shows that voters have a rather short memory, so there's still a good possibility for reelection. And of course it also depends on the candidate the Republicans will set up against him.

If you look at the historical approval ratings, it also shows how history repeats itself... Nearly all presidents go down in approval midterm and back up again towards election time. Notable exceptions: Nixon after Watergate (neg) and Bush after 9/11 (pos). I have the article in WSJ open in my browser but the forum won't allow me to post it, some silly bug here...



WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 977 posts, RR: 51
Reply 16, posted (4 years 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3103 times:

Quoting vio (Reply 1):
Americans will have to get used to living with mom and dad until they're 30, have a family of 4 leave in a 2 bedroom apartment, etc.

If you're saying it's undesirable policy for people to depend on their parents until they are 30, then what is this administration doing to help solve that problem? Extending the age limit of health care dependents to 26? That certainly won't help.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 14):
The Obama admin did the hard part and screwed up the easy part. He will lose his congress in two months and I doubt he can get a second term at this point.

It's about time people recognize that Obama hasn't demonstrated meaningful leadership, which is not unexpected from a man whose most significant leadership experience prior to the Presidency was managing a Presidential campaign.

Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 15):
I think it's too early for that call. As a comparison, Bill Clinton's approval rating was down to about 40% at a similar time in office, comparable to Obama's right now, and he was reelected.

The difference between past Presidents and this one (IMO) is the percentage of people who "strongly disapprove" versus just "disapprove." The former are passionate in their dislike for the Obama administration. I can't image how you win back those voters. What's more damning is that the "strongly disapprove" block is bigger than the population who identifies themselves as conservative. He has seriously alienated a significant chunk of the moderates who got him elected.


User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 17, posted (4 years 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3072 times:

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 12):
Obama just happens to be the President when the "Dream is dead" reality has finally dawned on the American public.



This is true in some ways , but he has not helped himself either. The President is not wholly to blame .... Pelosi , Reid and other far left operators have hurt him. He would be far better served with a opposition house and Senate .... one that he has to work with and use political tactics to pass bills.

I still dont get the whole party of no label ... no doubt the GOP has said no . But the Dems have the majorities ... seems the most criticasl no's have been coming from their own party . He still stands up and blames the GOP .... what more does he need ?
I mean he had the most powerful governemnt at his command ... and is blaming the minority government party for his trouble... he does not realaize that America is still a right center country ... and does not like leftitist revolutionaries making policy.

Look ..the dream is not dead in America ! ... we must never beleive that . Defining the dream is a whole other story . If you dream of getting it handed to you because its fair then you are screwed in America and need to move. If you beleive in risk and reward ...freedome to fail and try again ... freedome from oppressive governemnt then stay and fight with us. Leftists should leave America .... they are not wanted here . There is pleanty of places around the world that could use you and your ideas ... its just not the American way. Does not make you a bad person ... its just not what we are in America.



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (4 years 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3062 times:

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 14):
Yes Obama screwed up bigtime. He tricked the middle into thinking he would govern like a moderate Democrat and instead went back to his liberal far left vision of big government. Now the country has rejected him and Pelosi. He could have had 8 years easy and congress to if he just listened to the right people. Rahm was right that the people like Joan Walsh, Rachel Maddow, Jane Hamsher, George Soros and Arianna Huffington were "*ing *etarded" and that the UAW was a bunch of idiots.

Amen...I mean really cap and trade? The mere fact that it was being tossed around....

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 16):
If you're saying it's undesirable policy for people to depend on their parents until they are 30, then what is this administration doing to help solve that problem? Extending the age limit of health care dependents to 26? That certainly won't help.

Absolutely...now couple in the fact that average American is overweight, unhealthy, and lives a sedentary lifestyle and costs will rise for everyone..



Our Returning Champion
User currently offlinesantosdumont From Brazil, joined Dec 2003, 1201 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (4 years 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3059 times:

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 17):
Leftists should leave America .... they are not wanted here

That's the kind of patently un-American jingoism that will doom the Republicans from within.



"Pursuit Of Truth No Matter Where It Lies" -- Metallica
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 20, posted (4 years 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3042 times:

Quoting santosdumont (Reply 19):
That's the kind of patently un-American jingoism that will doom the Republicans from within.



No ...its true and if the country rejects it and we head down the leftist trail then we will change and that is that. There is nothing wrong with our party standing up for their ideals ... even if they lose we need out parties to stand for what they believe in. If the country rejects them ...then that is the will of the majority .

If a citizen of the US .,.. would rather have immense social services and live a life like a western European then what is wrong with them moving there ? America is a center right country and I believe that will be proved again in this election ... why should leftists live in misery here when utopia is only a plane ride away ?

Americans are different ... we are independent people , we don't mind failing and risking our security for the chance to succeed . That flys in the face of the leftists nanny state safe existence idea . Nothing in life is fair or handed to you ; as soon as you learn to love the adventure and the satisfaction of achieving in the face of all odds you will be better of in America.

We do not want people coming here expecting Sweden ... it is not what we are. Sweden is great ... and if you want Sweden go there . That's all I am saying .



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6608 posts, RR: 24
Reply 21, posted (4 years 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3032 times:

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 20):
America is a center right country and I believe that will be proved again in this election

If America is truly a center right country, why have government services grown so much over the past 50 years....regardless of who had control of the White House/Congress?

If America is truly a center right country, why do Republicans struggle to get and keep control of Congress? Even when the Republicans have won control, they've never kept it for very long.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 17):
Look ..the dream is not dead in America ! ... we must never beleive that .

The dream isn't dead, however the dream never really existed for most Americans and never will. While there is no doubt that free market capitalism can produce great wealth and opportunity, the reality is that free market capitalism REQUIRES the majority of the population to toil near or in poverty.

For a while, the U.S. had some advantages over the rest of the world and hence got a disproportionate amount of the wealth. But as other countries catch up, the free market will redistribute much of that wealth elsewhere.


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11657 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (4 years 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3005 times:

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 20):
That flys in the face of the leftists nanny state safe existence idea . Nothing in life is fair or handed to you ; as soon as you learn to love the adventure and the satisfaction of achieving in the face of all odds you will be better of in America.

This is what the right does not get at all. The "leftists" want everyone to succeed. The "leftists" want everyone to be independant. However, the "leftists" are also realists. The "leftists" understand that not everyone starts off with a job or skills or money or health care. Not everyone has boot straps to pull themselves up with. Some of the rhetoric I have heard from the right over the past decades seems to be based on the assumption that people have stuff to start with: a job, a home, an education, money, health care, and that those things will continue for that person forever. The "leftists" are realists and understand that not everyone will always have a job, money, homes, health care, and the proper education forever. Which sets up things like food stamps and unemployment payments and public education. Everyone wants to beat the odds, but, in the United States, the "house" (read: corporations) will always win.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinevio From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 1427 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (4 years 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3003 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 16):
If you're saying it's undesirable policy for people to depend on their parents until they are 30, then what is this administration doing to help solve that problem? Extending the age limit of health care dependents to 26? That certainly won't help.



I'm not talking about dependencies here. I believe once you're 18 or out of post secondary school you are no longer a "dependent". What I mean is that families stick together. A nice big 5 bedroom home can be shared by mom, dad, the son and his new wife, each working and contributing so they help the family out.

Now as far as Health Care is concerned in USA, it still boggles the mind. I happened to get sick while visiting the US and had to make a visit to the hospital. Lucky for me, it turned out to be nothing more than a muscle, but I spent 3 hours in the ER and my bill was $4500. I didn't get any pills, I didn't have surgery. All I had was some basic blood work, an X-Ray and a 5 minute chat with a very kind, great doctor. $4500 for 3 hours!!! That's insane! (Good thing I had medical insurance)

Okay, now I understand the American health care is great (in terms of service), but it does come at a price and that too I understand, but I think this price is not a high price, it's an ASTRONOMICAL PRICE.

So what are the costs?
1. Good doctors are not cheap!
Great! Thank you! I need a good doctor and I think they deserve a lot of money. My little sister is 1 year away from graduating med school and she paid $200,000 just for the 4 years (never mind her undergrad.. and don't get me started on the cost of education). I know how hard she worked. But come on... American doctors are WAY overpaid. I know that, because 5 of our close family friends are doctors and 3 of them moved from Canada to the US because of way better pay.

2. Technology is expensive
Yes, very true, but again, prices are astronomical. I understand the amount of research that goes into this. I have been to countless Bio-Medical Engineering companies in USA and I saw the price the have to pay for good engineers and technology, starting from software to others... but again, ASTRONOMICAL PRICES

Insurance for hospital / medical staff
This is f*cking retarted. The United States of America is a "sue happy" country that everyone sues everyone for everything, hence the insurance premiums are ridiculous. This can easily be solved by making a law stating "Unless gross negligence has been proven, such as drinking on the job, etc" a doctor or medical staff cannot be sued. You'll see the need of Insurance disappear.

Drugs
The cost of prescription drugs / medication is insane as well... Drug companies with their tentacles in every branch of your government sure make a lot of dough... It's wrong when your senior citizens have to come abroad and buy drugs. What's even worse, is that some of them get charged (criminally) for coming over the border to buy the same drug for 50% less... Where's "the land of the free"?

Other costs
Okay, I don't even know where to start here. I get a pair of slippers in the hospital and they charge $250 for it... I don't see PRADA written on it. I bet they got it at Walmart for $2.19. And the costs keep adding up.

So the problem with your health care is not that it's bad. It's great, but the cost is ASTRONOMICAL. I'm not saying it should be peanuts, because good healthcare comes at a price, but what you guys have is beyond reasonable. When a family is financially ruined because of an illness, you know something is wrong with your system.

Look, my country (Canada) has its share of problems, but I can get good health care for almost nothing (well i do have to pay taxes), but if I have to get surgery I'm not going to have to sell my house for it. I was in the hospital for 10 days about 8years ago and I didn't pay a penny. Not one!

So let's not blame health care here, or the fact that Obama wants some sort of basic health care for every American, but blame the astronomical price of it. I know the US has a fobia toward the gouvernment but I trust them more to run my business than I trust private "for profit" corporations.

[Edited 2010-09-09 09:33:17]


Superior decisions reduce the need for superior skills.
User currently offline11Bravo From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1718 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (4 years 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3001 times:

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 20):
We do not want people coming here expecting Sweden ... it is not what we are. Sweden is great ... and if you want Sweden go there . That's all I am saying .

We??? It is laughable that you presume to speak for the collective "We". You have consistently taken positions on this forum that represent views of the extreme right. To suggest that most Americans share your radical ideology is ludicrous.



WhaleJets Rule!
25 Boeing1970 : Instead of focusing on spending that makes sense, like infrastructure, he spent money shoring up banks that should have been allowed to fail and effo
26 AGM100 : Examples of extremism please ? I come from a poor family with no boot straps at all ... I was born disadvantaged in many ways. I was not educated lik
27 Ken777 : LOL! I love the idea of regulations in medicine. All professionals required to pass a demanding test before they can work on you is actually a good t
28 pnqiad : Not to get too technical here but bank bailout or TARP was passed in October 2008 under GWB.
29 Post contains images DfwRevolution : I can't be sure, but a lot of them voted for him in 2008! So much for the race card... I will acknowledge that he has done well at passing bills that
30 Starbuk7 : By a Democratic Congress but we all seem to forget that as well!!
31 QXatFAT : Where does that government worker get his paycheck from? The government. Now how does the government get that money? Taxes. Where do those taxes come
32 Post contains images Ken777 : Doesn't work out that way. The right has the money to be an oppressive opposition, especially when the Democrats didn't put a white guy in the White
33 NIKV69 : This is quite a different time in this country's history. I will give Obama the benefit of this comparison but as I look back to the Clinton's admin
34 AGM100 : Thank you ! but that is the politics of the past .... that is the reason we are in the ditch remember? . Now when President Obama figures out how to
35 Post contains images Boeing1970 : The only time the ice gets thin is when the government overspends on social programs because there is no return on that investment. You build roads;
36 Post contains images Ken777 : Health Care Reform still bugging you? That was clear during the campaign and Republicans passed up a chance to have more influence in the design. Bei
37 seb146 : Have you tried making a living or "keeping up with the Jonses" on minimum wage? Forget that. Have you tried surviving on minimum wage? These people t
38 bjorn14 : and in particular Barney Frank.
39 Ken777 : And, except for the big ride the realtors, banks and insurance companies took, how does the Clinton/Frank program differ from the 235 program my neig
40 Boeing1970 : No, your parents built it. All you did was use it. Now in your last breath you are pushing to stop it. Led by your parents. But as usual, you take cr
41 FlyPNS1 : You might want to check your history books. Most of the great social welfare programs were actually started by the "greatest generation" or even thei
42 Boeing1970 : Its not about the creation of or even the existence of social programs, its about the abuse of it by Boomers which is why our generation is so agains
43 FlyPNS1 : Most Boomers have not even begun to collect Medicare or Social Security, so I don't know how they could be abusing them. Most of the problems that th
44 Boeing1970 : All tied to this: Look at the number of kids in their 30's today who had parents that lived off of social programs because of a complete breakdown of
45 Post contains links Ken777 : LOL! Are you nuts or what? Mine was the first generation that paid gas taxes for the Interstate System their entire driving life (and continuing well
46 Boeing1970 : Thanks for proving my initial point on your generation: Your grandious proclimations of the greatness of your generation only re-enforce the statemen
47 Post contains links rottenray : First of all, this prattle about the "private sector" and "free market" gives me a headache because of the mystical worship some have for both. Realis
48 Baroque : Oh well Ken, they say the victors get to write the history, and the next generation by definition are victors in that they live longer. Mind you, if
49 Post contains links and images dxing : Actually it was Dan Rostenkowski that brought that up. Reagan went along because to no do so would have hurt his defense buildup. http://www.taxhisto
50 seb146 : Gutting every single bill that has been introduced was stalled by right-wingers until it is watered down to less than a shadow of its former self and
51 RayChuang : In my opinion, this economic malaise points out that there are serious economic structural problems that need fixing. And the sad part is that Preside
52 Post contains links dxing : You said it, both sides would have to agree. Instead we have a Speaker who is quoted as saying "elections have consequences" and a President that sai
53 Post contains images Ken777 : And maybe Reagan understood that the Interstate System needed to be maintained. Might have learned that as Governor of California. You use the roads
54 Baroque : Every fawcett, assuming not Farrah, ah I see. Jesus, thanks for the tip. So you mean it was the government that caused me to leave a tap dripping wit
55 NIKV69 : You realize the Dems didn't need the "right wingers" to pass legislation. They could have passed anything they wanted. Don't blame the GOP for the fa
56 Post contains images BMI727 : When did greed become bad? The problem is that the means of attaining the American dream was via questionable financing. That might be just the shock
57 Baroque : How about on the second page (in the edition I have) of the King James Bible, that will be Genesis Chapter 3? And much more after that. Are you reall
58 Post contains links and images dxing : Then your profile is out of date as 1945 plus 65 equals 2010. Correct, but I am 51, which actually puts me at the very end of the boomer generation a
59 dxing : Yes it would be, that's why I didn't say that. As usual the only way to make your point is to twist and invent words not said.
60 seb146 : Why, then, do right wing media sources always bring it up? Let's say in the here and now, not in the future. Look at the trillions of dollars in debt
61 BMI727 : Digging holes doesn't subsidize development of useful items. It isn't the government's job to bail people out when they do something stupid.
62 dxing : ??? It is people like President Obama, Speaker Pelosi, and Senator Reid that are always lamenting the gap and pushing policies that seek to redistrib
63 Post contains images Ken777 : Only if you let the financial sector and conservatives convince you that Wall Street need to be your answer. Social Security has an admin expense rat
64 BMI727 : Why can't the government let us keep our savings and let each person decide whether or not Wall Street is the answer? You don't need to go find a hot
65 Ken777 : First we are 70+ years too late for that in terms of people who have paid their entire working life. Our payments not only paid for our parents (and
66 Post contains links Baroque : 1. Digging holes might be more productive than some forms of military expenditure. The digging holes analogy is made to exaggerate the point that som
67 Ken777 : Anyone who has developed company budgets in environments with and without the "nanny costs" of employer provided health insurance fully understands t
68 Post contains images Superfly : So how did President Clinton affect the real estate prices in Vancouver, British Colombia, Canada?
69 BMI727 : Obviously, you can't just come out and say "No more Social Security." It would need to be phased out over a number of decades. Why is that bad? Inves
70 dxing : Nope, I just don't believe any of them when they cost out a program. Go figure, the word is out now that the health care program is going to cost sub
71 Post contains links Baroque : There is no reason except the historical record??? Fine, but that might be about 20% of the overall risk. The other 80% is that the financial institu
72 Post contains images Ken777 : A major problem with that is the fact that younger workers would see their investments hit with recession based drops and other crashes. Madoff and h
73 BMI727 : When it comes to life saving technology, nuclear weapons are right up there with penicillin. Then it would be prudent to manage the risk in one's inv
74 Ken777 : Hate to tell you this, but Social Security is the best investment we have ever made. It provided additional "life & disability" insurance when we
75 dxing : And the link in reply 58 says that in that one march there were 500,000 and that was just one march. That doesn't include those that bailed to Canada
76 Ken777 : What was the KIA and WIA numbers when 500,000 protested? It was a dumb war (like the unnecessary Iraq Invasion) and it was caused by some in the Grea
77 dxing : Makes no difference. Over the years there were millions that marched against that war and who knows how many that ducked and covered to avoid service
78 offloaded : They also broke the cardinal rule of "if it seems too good to be true, it probably is." Madoff was successful because like all Ponzi/pyramid schemes
79 Ken777 : The millions who protested the war included veterans who had served there and KNEW it was not winnable. How many Vietnam Vets were out there under th
80 AGM100 : He did not miss his chance .... we have chaos and racial division at a all time high. He is right on track with his progressive agenda.. the plan is g
81 Post contains images BMI727 : Higher than when white people owned black people?
82 Ken777 : No, it's not that bad from what I've seen. Or the racial tensions from the Vietnam War. National Geographic has a powerful show last night on that er
83 AGM100 : 2 YRS Ago I stated that the economy under the democrats would flatten out and flop along like a dying fish. Falcon84 nailed me on it and I was dismis
84 dxing : Veterans who were a minority of the total of the millions who protested and the who knows how many whom ducked cumpolsury service. But not absurd to
85 Post contains images Ken777 : But they were still there and their numbers grew each month. Maybe there was a reason for that. Same with any other war in the 20th Century. Some vol
86 dxing : Still a minority no matter how you would like to make them out to be more than their numbers were. As you are welcome to your misconceptions. As late
87 D L X : Obama didn't miss his chance. He's gotten a lot of stuff done that will be his legacy for years to come. However, he has lost one battle completely: t
88 NIKV69 : The right had nothing to do with any of Obama's failures or why we are going to vote his congress out in a few weeks. You forget he didn't need one m
89 D L X : Predictable comment. First, Obama hasn't failed. Second, the myth that he has is the product of the right's propaganda. Not "my" party, bub.
90 NIKV69 : Well feel free to produce something to back up your argument. As we have seen Obama biggest accomplishments have not panned out. That is not propagan
91 FlyPNS1 : How? Even if Obama did EXACTLY as you prescribed, it wouldn't have solved any of the problems this country faces. We'd still have MASSIVE debt (the U
92 dxing : You meant to say "infamous" for. ????? Is Gitmo closed? Who not only endorsed the Patriot Act once in office but is defending some of the very parts
93 santosdumont : Indeed. Precious time was wasted on non-issues like Obama's religious beliefs. On top of that, 24% of Republicans believe he "may" be the Anti-Christ
94 Post contains images D L X : No. I meant what I said. Yeah. You can cherry-pick all the things that you want that are not yet completed, but last I checked Obama was still in off
95 NIKV69 : Bull the reason for this outsourcing is the tax burden and increasing costs. Stop the insanity. Slash taxes and don't pass a bad health care bill and
96 D L X : False. Again, it's because labor is cheaper in other countries. Labor is a MUCH bigger expense than taxes.
97 FlyPNS1 : No, the prime driver for outsourcing is the massive disparity in labor costs. Unless American's are willing to work for $1/hour, the jobs will get ou
98 NIKV69 : Thank you. Taxes and health care are tied into labor costs. It just isn't hourly rate. I will make a note of this statement. Well if he becomes Speak
99 D L X : For refuting your false statement? You're welcome. False again. Health care? Yes. (Good thing Obama removed that expense from business's responsibili
100 NIKV69 : Your telling me the tax rate in these countries the US outsources is the same as the US? Health care to employees is not a labor cost? The only assin
101 D L X : No. I'm telling you what I put in my post. Please stop making straw man arguments. Please read my post carefully. I said that health care IS a labor
102 Post contains links NIKV69 : Thanks again. http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/labor-cost.html Definition .....Wages paid to workers during an accounting period on daily
103 FlyPNS1 : You can make a note all you want, but we're already seeing it. Remember when Gates announced the planned closure of JFCOM in Norfolk as a way of savi
104 NIKV69 : Actually providing health care and retirement probably ranks a bit higher. GM and the UAW didn't fight the hourly rate as much as they fought health
105 dxing : I don't think I said he wasn't. He's done nothing illegal so why shouldn't he be? Number one, it wasn't a fighter jet. It was an S3B Viking anti-sub
106 D L X : I really don't think you're understanding if you think that "related taxes" is what we're talking about in this thread. False. WOW! That's a lot of e
107 Post contains links dxing : No excuses, just facts. Since you can't refute them you try and redirect blame. Typical. Or are you seriously arguing that an SB3 Viking is a fighter
108 NIKV69 : What are you talking about? Your trying to tell us that it's just hourly rate that makes peope outsource which has to be the most ludicrous thing I h
109 FlyPNS1 : And even if there was no healthcare cost and no taxes, the Chinese would STILL be cheaper and the jobs would still get outsourced. If you want free m
110 dxing : There is a differnce between "free" and "fair". This is where NAFTA fell apart and where the WTO falls short. If the Chinese worker makes .50 and hou
111 Post contains images Ken777 : Secure the borders. And the tunnels? And the midnight "recruiting" by the VC where you either went with them or you were shot? No way would the US be
112 FlyPNS1 : But tariffs like that are the epitome of market engineering that conservatives oppose and fundamentally undermine the free market. Tariffs like you p
113 D L X : I'm really quite blown away by hearing this comment from a conservative. I think this is about as market destroying as there could possibly be.
114 Post contains links dxing : It's not "nanny" if you earn it. It is "nanny" if you don't lift a finger to earn it and just have it bestowed upon you as some sort of "divine" righ
115 D L X : I don't ignore it. I've NEVER said that American companies do not have a tax burden. I've said that the taxes related to *labor* is not the reason co
116 Post contains images Ken777 : If you "earn" it then why don't you pay taxes on that earned income? Even McCain recognized the folly of that nanny benefit. Maybe if all of you on n
117 dxing : No one said you did but you did say... which has been pointed out to you to be a false statement. Not in full, and no one suggested that, but they ar
118 Ken777 : Just as nanny employer health care costs are a huge part of the total labor cost. And probably one that would be the easiest to get rid of. If we hit
119 Post contains links caliatenza : i got this article in my email recently: Elections and Obama's Foreign Policy Choices is republished with permission of STRATFOR. pretty interesting..
120 Post contains links dxing : All it does is shift cost and reduce choice for the worker. Would you care to explain how just cutting health care is more cost efficient than laying
121 FlyPNS1 : But it doesn't even come close to actually balancing the budget. In fact, it doesn't even offset the additional 4 Trillion that will be needed to off
122 Post contains images dxing : Lets see your numbers. I say you're wrong. The budget was theoretically balanced from 1995 to 2000. There was no pain and it did not require large am
123 FlyPNS1 : That's because they didn't make any major cuts and relied on a temporary revenue bubble. Government spending continued to rise throughout the 90's, a
124 dxing : Welfare reform was one major reform implemented. The government shutdowns in 1995 led to actual negotiations between President Clinton and the GOP le
125 FlyPNS1 : True, but it had minimal impact on the federal budget. Again, overall government spending continued to grow throughout the 90's. A slower rate, but t
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