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Tea Party Taking Over The Republican Party?  
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8269 posts, RR: 8
Posted (4 years 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4353 times:

Looks like the Tea Party is kicking out more "Traditional Republicans".

Quote:
Christine O'Donnell, a "tea party"-backed long-shot candidate, stunned the Republican establishment Tuesday night by defeating nine-term Rep. Michael N. Castle in Delaware's GOP Senate primary, one of the most shocking upsets in an already tumultuous primary season.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn.../AR2010091407063.html?hpid=topnews

There can be little doubt that there are some major changes in the Party that was traditionally Middle to Middle Right, with a smattering of Hard Right.

Now it appears that moderates, or slightly right, are not wanted. Don't meet the new standards being set this year.

The question is just how far these two parties will go together, and how far they will split some time in the future.

My bet is that the Tea Party will take the lead up to the 2012 election and Palin will be their Presidential candidate.

If she wins the Tea Party has a 2 to 6 year run leading the Republicans. If she does not win then the Republicans will take over their party again.

204 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15739 posts, RR: 27
Reply 1, posted (4 years 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4348 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
My bet is that the Tea Party will take the lead up to the 2012 election and Palin will be their Presidential candidate.

Sounds like a great way to make Obama a two term president.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (4 years 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4333 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
My bet is that the Tea Party will take the lead up to the 2012 election and Palin will be their Presidential candidate.

Though she is probably considering it she won't run. Even if her endorsements do good it doesn't mean she is any more viable. Maybe in the view of Chris Matthews and the other haters who can't stand her because she brings out the people who the left loathe. I am sure the GOP's nominee will still be someone else.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
Sounds like a great way to make Obama a two term president.

Actually it would save Obama's worthless rearend. Depending on how things go in the mid term and what he does in 2011 the GOP's best chance of beating him is someone like Scott Brown or Chris Christie. Christie was actually embraced by Tammy Bruce so he has definately arrived and has is a lot more electable than Palin. He is becoming the darling of the media mostly because he can't be had in a gotcha interview. He destroys every interview and more his star rises I think if the GOP can nudge him he will entertain a run. If he can fix Corzines mess fast enough.


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5430 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (4 years 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4307 times:

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 2):
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
Sounds like a great way to make Obama a two term president.

Actually it would save Obama's worthless rearend.

I tend to agree here. If Obama moderates during the second two years of this term, he may well get a 2nd term. For some reason, he is still likable. Large GOP victories (taking back The House and bringing The Senate to parity) will either force Obama to moderate or we will see a 2 year-lame-duck presidency.

As for the Tea Party movement taking over the GOP: I can't say I'm glad to see O'Donnell win in Delaware (Castle would have locked up the seat), it does show that there is an active element in the GOP that wants to bring the party 'leaders' back to the right a little bit. Call it a correction. Too many so called Republicans are really just hard-right leaning Democrats. This 'correction' is just flushing them out. You can be sure that Snow and Collins would have been flushed if they were up for election this time around.

Again, to me, a Republican that votes with the party 70%+ of the time is a lot better than a Democrat that votes with his party 70%+ of the time. But that's just me.

November will be interesting. The next 2 years even more so, if the election goes the way the polls are predicting.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineavent From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (4 years 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4301 times:

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 2):
Maybe in the view of Chris Matthews and the other haters
Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 2):
Actually it would save Obama's worthless rearend.

 

In any case, as to whether the Tea Party is taking over the Republican Party, who knows. If all it takes is the throwing money at a few races, then any motivated group can have an impact; if the Republican response is to move further to the Right, then the Tea Party would be effectively controlling the Republicans.

As I see it, the problem for modern Republicans is that the Tea Party is the logical culmination of their hatred of government and mean-spirited opposition to anything that works the the betterment of society. Their own rhetoric created the environment needed by the tea party extremists to thrive and overtake them.


User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 38
Reply 5, posted (4 years 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4279 times:

Why don't they make Dr. Frasier Crane the Presidential candidate?

User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19697 posts, RR: 58
Reply 6, posted (4 years 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4277 times:

Quoting avent (Reply 4):

As I see it, the problem for modern Republicans is that the Tea Party is the logical culmination of their hatred of government and mean-spirited opposition to anything that works the the betterment of society.

That's a bunch of horsedung. The Tea Party is about one thing and one thing only: catchphrases. "Big Gummit." "Damn Liberals." "Don't trust scientists or other smart people." etc. There is no coherent political ideology.


User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (4 years 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4275 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 3):
If Obama moderates during the second two years of this term, he may well get a 2nd term. For some reason, he is still likable. Large GOP victories (taking back The House and bringing The Senate to parity) will either force Obama to moderate or we will see a 2 year-lame-duck presidency.

This is what will be very interesting. If the GOP takes the house and enough seats in the Senate to block much of the far left legislation he is going to have change course. Another drawn out war with the other side will not bode will for the DNC. It's hard to predict what the independents will do. Of course the far left will go crazy. The salon.coms and firedoglake.coms will ratchet up the hate and we can probably see Bernie Sanders putting on a freak show every day. Grayson too if he is lucky enough to get elected again. No matter what happens though if Obama doesn't extend all the tax cuts and the economy doesn't improve he is toast. Donald Duck could run against him and win.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 3):
As for the Tea Party movement taking over the GOP: I can't say I'm glad to see O'Donnell win in Delaware (Castle would have locked up the seat), it does show that there is an active element in the GOP that wants to bring the party 'leaders' back to the right a little bit. Call it a correction. Too many so called Republicans are really just hard-right leaning Democrats. This 'correction' is just flushing them out. You can be sure that Snow and Collins would have been flushed if they were up for election this time around.

This is a tough one, I mean we basically have what happened in Nevada here but I don't think O'Donnell is going to poll as good as Angle has. Delaware isn't Nevada. I don't see her winning this seat and she will disappear into obscurity. Our play is Fiorina, Rubio and Angle. Where we have a real chance at winning. I don't think it's a shift more like a piss poor turnout in a small state that knows they were losing in Nov either way.

Quoting avent (Reply 4):
If all it takes is the throwing money at a few races, then any motivated group can have an impact; if the Republican response is to move further to the Right, then the Tea Party would be effectively controlling the Republicans.

Doubtful, you are still giving the tea party more credit than they deserve. Have they made a difference? Sure but just because a whack in Delaware won a primary with no turnout doesn't mean as much as Rachel Maddow would lead you too believe. Scott Brown's victory was a bit more of a upset.

Quoting avent (Reply 4):
As I see it, the problem for modern Republicans is that the Tea Party is the logical culmination of their hatred of government and mean-spirited opposition to anything that works the the betterment of society. Their own rhetoric created the environment needed by the tea party extremists to thrive and overtake them

They don't hate government, they hate too much government. Your taking the bait Maddow is feeding you into thinking that every tea party member is some nutjob libertarian. It's not true. It also has nothing to do with the betterment of society. This is also a talking point the left media is trying to feed you. The tea party is become active because we have a president who is dangerously running this country down a bad road.

[Edited 2010-09-15 00:29:51]

User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5430 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (4 years 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4259 times:

Quoting avent (Reply 4):
As I see it, the problem for modern Republicans is that the Tea Party is the logical culmination of their hatred of government and mean-spirited opposition to anything that works the the betterment of society.

Whoa, whoa, whoa there cowboy. The Tea Party folks don't hate government. They hate big, intrusive, wasteful, inefficient, etc. government. As for the betterment of society, they, and I, don't believe that the policies put in place by a nanny-state government are for the betterment of its people. Those policies may be for the betterment of the government and the party that institutes them, but certainly not the people.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21625 posts, RR: 55
Reply 9, posted (4 years 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4239 times:

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 7):
Scott Brown's victory was a bit more of a upset.

And let's remember that if the Democratic candidate hadn't been a complete idiot and campaigned like crap after not campaigning at all, Scott Brown would likely be "that guy who ran in Massachusetts" instead of the household name he is. He may be a big name in the GOP, but whether he can win a big election when his opponent is actually making an effort remains to be seen.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 7):
They don't hate government, they hate too much government.
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 8):
The Tea Party folks don't hate government. They hate big, intrusive, wasteful, inefficient, etc. government.

Is it that, or is it that they hate government that doesn't do what they want? I suspect that when push came to shove, they'd have no problem with intrusive government as long as it was to the detriment of things they don't like, and they'd be much more accepting of government waste as long as those in power claimed to share their views.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinefxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7298 posts, RR: 85
Reply 10, posted (4 years 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4162 times:
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A natural beneficiary of populist resentment toward establishment politicians. I call it Perot Syndrome.

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
My bet is that the Tea Party will take the lead up to the 2012 election and Palin will be their Presidential candidate.

They win a few primaries and your ready to anoint the next coming?   


User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8016 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (4 years 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4154 times:

And I consider it not a BAD thing.

Why? Because let's face it: the size of government is TOO big and the income tax system in the USA is too complex and ends up driving jobs, factories, corporate headquarters and likely way over US$10 TRILLION in American-owned liquid assets out of the USA as an income tax avoidance measure. This is economic insanity, in my humble opinion.   

Hopefully, the influence of the Tea Party movement will finally force Congress to fix the income tax system and to seriously look at auditing every Federal, state and local government agency for bureaucratic overlap and agency bloat so we can reduce the size of government by at least 30%, which would free up more private money for other economic activities.


User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11342 posts, RR: 52
Reply 12, posted (4 years 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4136 times:

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 11):
the size of government is TOO big

Smaller than most industrialized nations.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 11):
the income tax system in the USA is too complex

The income tax system is really quite simple. Make X? Pay Y. Qualify for credits? claim them. Easy. The federal tax system is easier than the football rule book. (Ask a Lions fan.)

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 11):
ends up driving jobs, factories, corporate headquarters and likely way over US$10 TRILLION in American-owned liquid assets out of the USA as an income tax avoidance measure.

False. The thing driving outsourcing is that Indians, Mexicans, and Chinese are significantly cheaper than Americans. That's it, the sole reason.



****************


But back to the actual topic, yes, the Tea Party is taking over the GOP. They don't have the power to make their own political party, so they're hijacking another one. It's actually a pretty good plan for gaining a party, but a pretty terrible plan for gaining seats in Congress. And as much as a certain poster wants to suggest otherwise, Palin IS running. That's why she's trying to put her people in power now. She's building her network in all 50 states.



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User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 13, posted (4 years 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4123 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 12):
The income tax system is really quite simple. Make X? Pay Y. Qualify for credits? claim them. Easy. The federal tax system is easier than the football rule book. (Ask a Lions fan.)

You are kidding me, right? There is a WHOLE lot more to the tax code than that. There is a chance that your taxes may not be all that complex, but for a whole lot of people--and especially businesses--it is VERY complex. If it wasn't there would be no stinckin' multi-billion dollar Tax services industry.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 14, posted (4 years 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4119 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 12):
False. The thing driving outsourcing is that Indians, Mexicans, and Chinese are significantly cheaper than Americans. That's it, the sole reason.

Laughable. Americans take no part in tax havens, huh?



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 15, posted (4 years 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4112 times:

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 11):
auditing every Federal, state and local government agency

The GAO disclaims an opinion on the US Government financials every year and has always done tat as far as I know. It is just too massive of an organization to audit.

And there's a sh!t load of problems. . .
http://blog-pfm.imf.org/pfmblog/2010...overnment-financial-reporting.html

No private organization would get away with even a fraction of this.

Here's what a disclaimer of an opinion means:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditor's_report

[Edited 2010-09-15 07:19:26]

[Edited 2010-09-15 07:20:01]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19697 posts, RR: 58
Reply 16, posted (4 years 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4070 times:

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 7):
The tea party is become active because we have a president who is dangerously running this country down a bad road.

Wrong. The Tea Party happened almost as soon as Obama was elected. Before he had done anything. At that point, some people had the foregone conclusion that "Left=Bad." At that point, EVERYTHING Obama did, including ordering dijon mustard on a burger, was bad.

Now, at this point, Obama has proven himself to be ineffective. I'll grant you that. But dangerous? Hardly.


User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11342 posts, RR: 52
Reply 17, posted (4 years 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4053 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
Obama has proven himself to be ineffective.

Just to make sure NIKV and others know, most people do not agree with Doc on this.



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User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8840 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (4 years 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4027 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
Wrong. The Tea Party happened almost as soon as Obama was elected. Before he had done anything. At that point, some people had the foregone conclusion that "Left=Bad." At that point, EVERYTHING Obama did, including ordering dijon mustard on a burger, was bad.

The tea party had nothing to do with Obama - it had everything to do with the GOP. In the 80s and 90s, the Republicans were fairly conservative fiscally. Reagan had to deal with a Democratic Congress that couldn't cut spending. The GOP under Gingrich had Congress during the Clinton era, and that was beneficial for all. But around 2000, the GOP moved a little left (Remember "compassionate conservatism"? That was just a code word for progressive republicans.) GWB was not a conservative in the mold of Reagan or Gingrich, and neither were the republicans who controlled Congress at the time. Fiscal responsibility and restraint were not there (it was better than what we have now, but still not what it should have been). The GOP got booted for it in 2006 for that, and again in 2008 when it ran McCain, another progressive republican (he tried to talk like a conservative, but his record was clear).

The people don't want a choice between Progressive and Progressive Lite. Polls show that there are twice as many conservatives in the US as there are liberals. The only reason liberals win elections is when conservatives stay home, because they do not see a conservative candidate. I know a lot of people who didn't bother voting in 2008 - why bother, when both choices were just about as bad as the other?

If the Tea Party does gain control over the GOP and returns the party to its root beliefs (namely fiscal conservatism, fiscal conservatism and fiscal conservatism), it will be a good thing, because after many years people will finally have a real choice.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineavent From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (4 years 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4026 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
That's a bunch of horsedung. The Tea Party is about one thing and one thing only: catchphrases. "Big Gummit." "Damn Liberals." "Don't trust scientists or other smart people." etc. There is no coherent political ideology.

Touche!

  


User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (4 years 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4027 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
And let's remember that if the Democratic candidate hadn't been a complete idiot and campaigned like crap after not campaigning at all, Scott Brown would likely be "that guy who ran in Massachusetts" instead of the household name he is. He may be a big name in the GOP, but whether he can win a big election when his opponent is actually making an effort remains to be seen

No, actually it was a smack in the face to the health care bill. Which had already been tried in MA and was met with the same disdain. If you want to think that Brown won only because the candidate went on vacation right before the election go right ahead but your lying to yourself.

Quoting fxramper (Reply 10):
They win a few primaries and your ready to anoint the next coming?

They have to say this as a way to explain away why they are losing hold, it's all they have. They can't admit the country has rejected them. So they have to invent scenarios like if your against us your racist. That Rush is leading the GOP. That the tea party is taking over the GOP. It's lunacy.

Quoting D L X (Reply 12):
Smaller than most industrialized nations

We need to keep it that way.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
But dangerous? Hardly

Well only the fact that some level headede Dems prevented him from really passing some dangerous legislation has lessened the blow but if Pelosi passed what she really wanted we would have been in a bad way, real bad.

Quoting D L X (Reply 17):
Just to make sure NIKV and others know, most people do not agree with Doc on this.

Yes and they will be giving their concession speeches on that first Tuesday ini November.


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11651 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (4 years 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4016 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
Is it that, or is it that they hate government that doesn't do what they want? I suspect that when push came to shove, they'd have no problem with intrusive government as long as it was to the detriment of things they don't like, and they'd be much more accepting of government waste as long as those in power claimed to share their views.

Yes!! Go back and look at how the right defends Patriot Act and how much Bush balooned the government after 2001. When anyone spoke out against it, it was usually a right-winger telling those of us who wanted no part of the huge spending spree that we were the terrorists because we were against what the president was doing to defend this country. All of a sudden, we get a Dem in office and all the spending is the worst possible thing, according to right-wingers who had been defending spending.

Are the tea people taking over the Republican party? Yes. Some even think they can run on their own and defeat the Dems. I think the Dems will still have a majority in both houses come November because those tea people running in primaries that lose will huff a bit then run on their own and suck votes away from Republicans. The left will stand strong and keep a majority because of this.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12543 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (4 years 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4011 times:

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 2):
Maybe in the view of Chris Matthews and the other haters who can't stand her because she brings out the people who the left loathe. I am sure the GOP's nominee will still be someone else.

Yep, she's a good pot-stirrer, but unless she's done a whole s*itload of studing or gotten a brain transplant she just doesn't have what it takes.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 3):
Too many so called Republicans are really just hard-right leaning Democrats. This 'correction' is just flushing them out.

So, who is the prototypical real Republican these days? GHWB? GWB? RR?

You can't really count a lot of the current darlings because they haven't done it yet.

Like Obama, they will find that campaign rhetoric only takes you so far.

Once you have the job, you'll find out just how beholden the Congress is to special interests and their own re-electability, not your master plan.

Quoting avent (Reply 4):
As I see it, the problem for modern Republicans is that the Tea Party is the logical culmination of their hatred of government and mean-spirited opposition to anything that works the the betterment of society. Their own rhetoric created the environment needed by the tea party extremists to thrive and overtake them.

I kinda agree, but think those on the right have a different idea of the betterment of society.

Note that we have never seen the federal government shrink in any meaningful way under any recent administration, Republican or Democrat.

As Abe Lincoln said, too many piglets, not enough teats...

And the last balanced budget was submitted by none other than Bill Clinton...

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 7):
This is what will be very interesting. If the GOP takes the house and enough seats in the Senate to block much of the far left legislation he is going to have change course.

What far left legislation are you referring to?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 7):
They don't hate government, they hate too much government.

If they are like most on the right, they like big government too, they just don't want to admit it.

They prefer to spend the money on the military, the spies, the police and the border guards instead of on social programs, but they do not have any realistic plan that would substantially reduce the size of government.

They just keep saying "less government" in the same way Obama kept saying "change" - a philosophical construct that's hard to argue with but with no real plan or ability to implement it.

Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
Is it that, or is it that they hate government that doesn't do what they want? I suspect that when push came to shove, they'd have no problem with intrusive government as long as it was to the detriment of things they don't like, and they'd be much more accepting of government waste as long as those in power claimed to share their views.

  

Witness the passing of the "Patriot Act" by GHWB's administration, which is all about intrusive government.

Quoting fxramper (Reply 10):
A natural beneficiary of populist resentment toward establishment politicians. I call it Perot Syndrome.

Yep, last time we needed "change", now we need "less government". Not hard to tap the sentiment, very hard to actually do something about it.

Quoting D L X (Reply 12):
But back to the actual topic, yes, the Tea Party is taking over the GOP. They don't have the power to make their own political party, so they're hijacking another one.

Good point.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
At that point, EVERYTHING Obama did, including ordering dijon mustard on a burger, was bad.

Well, he did pick Bud Lite for the "Beer Summit"! 

You're the leader of the free world, man!

You can have any damn beer you want, and you pick Bud Lite?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
Now, at this point, Obama has proven himself to be ineffective. I'll grant you that. But dangerous? Hardly.

Ineffective relative to his campaign rhetoric, sure, but that's to be expected.

This whole Tea Party thing has been entertaining to watch, especially as we see the Old Guard Replicans left twisting in the wind, but it amounts to nothing more than a tempest in a teapot.

Even if the Tea Party types managed the miracle of taking 10% - 20% of Congress this year, within two years we'll be talking about how "ineffective" they've been.

And those Tea Party types will be focusing on how to get re-elected, and will convince themselves that they need the corporate dollars to fill their campaign chests.

I hope I'm wrong, but I really doubt it.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineavent From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (4 years 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4003 times:

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 7):
Quoting avent (Reply 4):
If all it takes is the throwing money at a few races, then any motivated group can have an impact; if the Republican response is to move further to the Right, then the Tea Party would be effectively controlling the Republicans.

Doubtful, you are still giving the tea party more credit than they deserve. Have they made a difference? Sure but just because a whack in Delaware won a primary with no turnout doesn't mean as much as Rachel Maddow would lead you too believe. Scott Brown's victory was a bit more of a upset.

No I am not. If the republican response is to move further to the right, then the tea party deserves appropriate credit for controlling the republicans. It's too early to say from an election perspective, but there are clear signs the republican rhetoric has been increasingly of a shrill rightwing form in the past few years, so they are having some influence; whether it rises to the level of controlling republican election concerns is something else.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 7):
They don't hate government, they hate too much government. Your taking the bait Maddow is feeding you into thinking that every tea party member is some nutjob libertarian. It's not true.

No, they hate government. If they hated too much government they'd be opposed to the huge military spending we make, and not just social programs. They actually love big goverment when it comes to military contracts and waging wars and stuff that gets the patriotic juices flowing.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 7):
The tea party is become active because we have a president who is dangerously running this country down a bad road.

They became active because a black, right of center (and hence 'moderate' in american terms) man became president. They had little problem with an inarticulate buffoon being a corporate puppet running the Whitehouse; they had little problem with him waging 2 wars simultaneously which re-invigorated corporate and military welfare after the post Cold War doldrums; and they had little problem with him wrecking the economy and not raising taxes to pay for his military adventures. So there is not a grain of truth to the self serving myth they are active because a democrat is ruining the country; the country was well on the way to being ruined before Obama, and so their claims in this regard simply ring hollow.


User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (4 years 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3989 times:

Quoting avent (Reply 23):
They became active because a black, right of center (and hence 'moderate' in american terms) man became president.

Can we stop with the race baiting? Your telling me if John Kerry had won and was doing the same thing the tea party would never have spoken out? Of course not, they are protesting his policy, not his skin color. As for your right of center remark your way off base as well. He is as far left as Pelosi. You just don't see it because he isn't as confrontational as she is. He isn't anywhere near the center.


25 D L X : False. Reagan was all about deficit spending, lest we forget. The national debt skyrocketed under him. His goal was basically to outspend the Soviets
26 Post contains images Revelation : Hmm... Carter cancelled the B-1A, Reagan brought back the B-1B and started building the 500 ship Navy, starting with bringing four battleships out of
27 NIKV69 : We have whacks in both parties. I mean how do you explain the truthers?
28 Post contains images avent : Especially when being led by a black manchurian imposter without a birth-certificate apparently. But seriously, the problem with the hating waste and
29 avent : Race baiting? How many demands for birth certificates were made of white candidates?
30 avent : When faced with a mess on Wall Street and a need to boost the economy, what was his first effort? Bail out the corporations. That's hardly a leftwing
31 NIKV69 : Who cares? Sure the fringe has some racists but to say everyone who opposes him is a racist is BS. Every time opposition to Obama gains strength the
32 Revelation : It doesn't seem to me the truthers are predominately left wing, whereas the birthers seem to me to largely be right wing. At least it seems the right
33 avent : Who cares? The nuts in the Tea Party who wield such banners, for one. If the Tea Party no longer wants the racist and bigotry association, then they
34 NIKV69 : Oh please.. You kidding? Who? Most of the tea party doesn't wield racist banners. In fact go to a rally and tell me how many racist banners you see.
35 avent : I ignore it because few on either the right or left gave it serious credibility, and the theory it was done by our own government is from the fringe
36 Post contains links Revelation : Shouldn't the right answer be zero? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birther says: This matches my perceptions of where the birther movement gets its pub
37 NIKV69 : These people are idiots. Now I can begin to name Truthers like Rosie O'Donnell and Jesse Ventura but what does this prove? Your spinning this. Of cou
38 Post contains links avent : 1. This is like Breitbart complaining at the rally about how unfair the media was for portraying the right for being bigotted, even though there was
39 santosdumont : Of course, Blacks didn't buy and sell Whites like chattel or pass laws declaring Whites to be 3/5 of a person. You are overlooking the fact that Whit
40 avent : But the NAACP, while being a significant leftwing organization represents only one faction of the democrats, and it is only the rightwing who elevate
41 D L X : Geebus dude. Limbaugh - the biggest mouth of the right. Don't take the ridiculous position that right wing talk radio doesn't stoke that flame.
42 NIKV69 : Why doesn't the left condemn the Black Panthers? Your telling me the left doesn't have it's fringe? Media matters are a joke and they only exist to t
43 santosdumont : Please feel free to refute my point with facts rather than with hollow posturing. My point is one your posts have clearly missed. Comparing the react
44 NIKV69 : No need to, Wall street is not against Obama because he is black. If you really believe this well then it doesn't deserve a response. Two words. Geor
45 Post contains images EA772LR : Couldn't agree more. If you think that cheap labor is the only thing driving money out of the U.S. you are sorely mistaken. We are OVER TAXED. Libera
46 avent : You're missing the point. I am not arguing there are no fringe nutcases on the Left; yes there are the Black Panthers or course, but they are not mai
47 NIKV69 : Your missing the point. Just because some in the Tea Party are birthers and racists doesn't mean the whole party is. Once you stop with this MSNBC ta
48 Post contains images D L X : YOU just implied that no right wing talk radio hosts were stoking the birther flames. Did you forget that you implied that? I'm answering your questi
49 Post contains links santosdumont : As recently as 1994, this kind of thing was going on at a major multi-national company: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/business/november96/texaco_11-
50 EA772LR : When did I say by outsourcing you don't have to PAY TAXES?? The taxes on business and corporations are far lower in many places around the world. Ple
51 Revelation : Right, and the fact that the Republican Party candidates are losing primaries to Tea Party candidates doesn't do that all on its own.
52 NIKV69 : Never said that, unless you want to point that out. Savage and his Klan are nuts. Rush doesn't stoke the birther thing. Steele doesn't do anything of
53 Post contains links and images D L X : Maybe I misunderstood you, but it sure sounded a lot like you were saying that taxes make American companies outsource jobs. OHHHHHHH!!! So at those
54 NIKV69 : Only when it's a republican. See Charlie Rangel. No it's all relative. Taking a snippet from Rush's show is fine but he doesn't talk about the birthe
55 Post contains links Revelation : Another cat and mouse move? We were discussing the impact of Tea Party candidates on the Republican party. The big difference here is that these Tea
56 Post contains images avent : You protest too much. So you will blame the Left, but whitewash a major rightwinger's actions as being merely 'unfortunate.' And for the record, Newt
57 NIKV69 : Only because your buying into the MSNBC propaganda. Both parties have moderates and extremists. Simply because the DNC doesn't have a catch phrase fo
58 Post contains links PPVRA : The first Tea Party was in 2008. . . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Party_movement#Background_and_history (and dates back to the end of 2007)[Edite
59 DocLightning : Reagan also funded a massive war on drugs (a socialist/authoritarian scheme if there ever was one). And he lowered taxes while spending huge amounts.
60 Post contains images NIKV69 : I find myself agreeing to much with Doc lately. Except for Angelina As for the movement failing it's not really relevent. Palin has endorsed 35 or 36
61 fr8mech : Doesn't make it right. I'll argue that we have been wildly successful and prosperous in the past because we had a smaller government. Are you insane?
62 avent : Oh dear, and when such a 'hard left' president bails out corporate america, I think we can safely conclude he's pretty pro-corporate and not really l
63 PPVRA : Isn't that exactly why the Tea Party has grown? The argument goes that the states actually have the power to regulate. The idea is to give federalism
64 Dreadnought : This is the kind of response from the left that just shows their prejudice, ignorance and refusal to consider even listen to opposing opinions. Has a
65 Revelation : Sounds good in theory, but in practice you end up with more government (50 sets of bureaucrats making rules for the same things in many many cases) a
66 Post contains links PPVRA : Here is the solution: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_act It's much better to work hard to persuade people than to just fight for 50% + 1 vote i
67 avent : Why the Tea Party has grown? Perhaps, but it has only been on the scene for less than two years, and between the rage and the bigotry and hatred for
68 Dreadnought : Unemployment benefits, welfare, social security and private retirement requirements, healthcare, for starters. I have no problem with states getting
69 avent : By asking a question? I'm merely pushing the argument to its logical conclusion, since there is nothing in the mantra to shift power to the states th
70 PPVRA : Fair enough. They still have to prove themselves. I personally only like a minority of their candidates, like Rand Paul, Glen Bradley, B.J. Lawson an
71 fr8mech : Answered well in other posts. The state governments are closer to the people, the local, even more. I've said before that I don't even think my tax b
72 garnetpalmetto : Actually, it dates from 1867, it was demoted to an office a year later and in 1953 it was re-elevated to a cabinet level position as part of the Depa
73 Dreadnought : Correction: to its absurd conclusion. They will, but a badly run state will see industry and the better paid (thus high taxed) people flee, and they
74 PPVRA : But still pretty minor, and certainly didn't have a multi-billion dollar budget + thousands of employed bureaucrats.
75 Revelation : I still don't see how distributing these things amongst 50 different fiefdoms is going to reduce the size of government. I certainly don't hear any c
76 Post contains images Ken777 : But the Republican Tea Party is changing. Moving to the right and only wants moderate Republicans when they are willing to hand over their votes. Or
77 Post contains images OA412 : People can play dumb all they want, but her game plan is quite obvious. Sure it doesn't. I suppose the signs comparing Obama to Hitler and Stalin and
78 Post contains links and images Dreadnought : The federal government, damned straight! State governments would grow, and I don't mind that so much, for many reasons. Very simple. Announce that wi
79 Post contains images D L X : That does not make it "complicated." That makes it another c: comprehensive. Again, false. "All Democrats" is not analogous to "Tea Party protesters.
80 LTBEWR : It will be interesting to see how the 'Tea Party' movement goes after this fall's general election on Nov. 2. So far, the Tea Party is not a party in
81 gemuser : If you think these people are left wing, you need to get out in the world more! "Right of Centre" is generous. Gemuser
82 fr8mech : I agree. The Tea Party is not a party, per se, but a movement within the party. Call it a vocal faction that is trying to bring the party back to its
83 avent : That's not at all obvious, as Arizona and California vlearly demonstrate - the areas of the country I'm more familiar with. Agreed. Come to Arizona t
84 avent : And if following logic leads to an absurd conclusion, then the premise is flawed. QED And if they can't flee, because of, oh, say, their credit can't
85 gemuser : That could be argured! Still does not make him left, he is around middle right. Now Vladmir Putin, he is left of centre. Gemuser
86 styles9002 : Keep on drinking that Kool-Aid son, and the rest of the adults in this country will start righting the wrongs in November 2010...
87 DocLightning : I'm terribly sorry, but you seem to be in the wrong country, sir. The Constitution grants the federal government the power to promote the general wel
88 D L X : Easy there. I'm not your 'son.'
89 sw733 : I must say I am seriously contemplating joining the Tea Party movement, but only if they have a Long Island Iced branch...
90 PPVRA : It's plenty complex without even getting to that. It's far too complex for even smaller businesses with little to no political pull, let alone money
91 PPVRA : That's the preamble, which is not the law. Flat out doesn't count. Not to mention that "welfare" can be interpreted in a number of ways and I doubt i
92 garnetpalmetto : Article I, Section 8, however, is the law.
93 PPVRA : Then there is this. . .
94 Baroque : Just checking as some of these arguments about the US seem very obscure that this bit is: to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and gen
95 PPVRA : Unfortunately there is the "interpretation" thing and something the courts at the time were pretty much in agreement with my position, until, of cour
96 AGM100 : Like I have said before ...democrats need not worry about the TEA party . Career republican spender types do....no more running as republicans and act
97 Revelation : So you really aren't for less government, or more efficient government. You're just for less federal government, which will mean more total governmen
98 PPVRA : State level means a government with more power, but with less reach which is a limitation on power. Restoring federalism isn't going to solve all pro
99 Mir : It would pretty much be the Articles of Confederation. Which worked so well that they needed to be replaced by the Constitution. -Mir
100 PPVRA : States rights = federalism. That's something the Democrats don't like very much, apparently. Are they anti-federalists? Definately not, so they must
101 garnetpalmetto : I'm glad somebody else thinks this - it's been my opinion that what the tea partiers and what not have been braying for is for a fundamental change i
102 DocLightning : Oh, that's rich. Canada with nationalized and socialized just about everything from healthcare to airports is a model for how the Tea Partiers want t
103 D L X : State's rights = segregation. Go read your history.
104 PPVRA : State's rights = no slaves in the north, even if still legal under the Federal government. State's rights = Wisconsin refusing to send run away slave
105 avent : Gotta say, this has been one of the funniest threads I've read in a long time. If the current rampant outbreak of foot-in-mouth disease is any indica
106 avent : No county rights = enslaving an entire county against its will. This is just logic. But wait, there's more! No city rights = enslaving and entire cit
107 avent : Actually, we all have a lot to fear from breathless rightwing extremist utopian fanatics who want to take a wrecking ball to government under the ill
108 Post contains images garnetpalmetto : That's why I maintain (although he disagrees ) that PPVA's an anarcho-capitalist at heart. It's the natural progression of that thought process you l
109 Mir : Actually, states rights = anti-federalism. -Mir
110 D L X : Exactly. The real thing that people clamoring about state's rights want (other than those who don't want the feds desegregating their schools) is bas
111 AGM100 : You don't need to worry .... Maggie's Farm is not going anywhere . Do you have a job ? Do you actually produce anything and see half of it gone every
112 avent : Which, put another way, points out that if such responsibilities went to the states, there would be a strong temptation for local producers and state
113 avent : If Maggie votes as she always does, the Tea Party will make no difference at the end of the day. Government is the way it is because of voters like M
114 AGM100 : Then Don't ... and I have answered this over and over . I supported the war's ... so no I didn't appose it on affordability. And yes I apposed compas
115 garnetpalmetto : And the method you describe (relying on voluntary donations from private individuals as well as churches and nonprofits to handle all the needs of th
116 Post contains links NIKV69 : Why not, keep your friends close but your enemies closer. This is such a smoke screen. The race element is being propagated by the left wing attack m
117 BMI727 : For what it's worth, those wars (especially Iraq) are actually liberal pursuits. Spreading democracy and nation building are things that would be att
118 garnetpalmetto : Are we talking about the same Iraq War here? Color me confused, but I seem to recall being sold a bill of goods that that was about the imminent dang
119 BMI727 : Then why are we still there? Go look for the weapons, hang the dictator, and leave. Why waste money building schools.
120 Post contains images AGM100 : See Avent goes to the extreme in order to escape reality ... I know of no conservatives who want to completely strip all social programs from governm
121 Baroque : I can tell you it is bloody murder down here in Aus too so there is another "news" item for you. Communist government and so cramped too. No room at
122 Revelation : It's a familiar tactic, just like the talk of death panels during the health care debate... Yep, and you can't even resist using it yourself...
123 Post contains images garnetpalmetto : The azaleas have been taxed out of existence? Nooo! Now you'll tell me that Ayers Rock, wallabies, platypi, echidnas, kangaroos, wombats, koalas, did
124 Post contains links Revelation : Luckily for me, it seems that Men at Work, INXS, and Paul Hogan also have been taxed out of existence, although it seems the Australian Taxation Offi
125 garnetpalmetto : So that explains why they washed up on our fair shores a few years ago for that awful reality show! And obviously this makes sense. Hutchence's death
126 avent : Then the real problem is conservatives being out of control beating the drum for wars they were unwilling to pay for and then blaming the government
127 NIKV69 : Go move to Japan. You will find many people living in overcrowded cities in small apartments driving small cars. With little chance of doing any more
128 avent : Is the beer OK? You still have access to beer? Right?
129 garnetpalmetto : And that has absolutely nothing to do with how little habitable land Japan has, right?
130 AGM100 : Except death panels we will have, and I support them. If we are going to have a huge single payer medical monster I want death panels . It is practic
131 avent : You can change the terminology all you like, but the underlying facts remain the same: GWB and his republican/conservative/Liberal cronies waged unne
132 D L X : No. You just stated that you had because you can't understand why you are wrong.
133 NIKV69 : Sure it has something to do with it but go to Canada or Sweden as well. People are so dependent on the government that they don't have the oppurtunit
134 D L X : I actually agree with you there (something you'd know if you paid more attention). But that does not absolve you of the fallacy that taxes are the re
135 Post contains images Mir : Whoa there. Spreading democracy is a liberal pursuit, but not through war. A liberal pursuit would be to use foreign aid and international organizati
136 StuckInCA : Wait. What? Have you been to Canada or Sweden?
137 PPVRA : Hence why rights are individual. Factually incorrect. Anarchist? No. I want laws to apply to all human beings, regardless of their employer (that mea
138 PPVRA : How can you even say that anyways? We all know the US has a long tradition with state rights and that is to this date, despite we all also knowing th
139 garnetpalmetto : Why yes it does. We even had a nice little war about 150 years ago the result of which was the final realization that the rights of the states are su
140 PPVRA : Oh wow, so you killed and maimed hundreds of thousands to people and led millions of others into poverty to settle that question? How civilized. Mach
141 DocLightning : It may be neoconservative, but it is not Conservative. It is imperialist and paternalistic, but it does not fall on the left-right spectrum.
142 Post contains links PPVRA : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_No._45
143 Post contains images Mir : Sorry, but no. By that logic, North Korea is democratic, since it is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. You need to take another look at the
144 PPVRA : We *know* the US is a federal republic with a strong tradition of state rights, as you admitted. We also *know* North Korea isn't a democracy. I don'
145 D L X : Bulls--t. I call it like I see it. You're the one that keeps bringing up states rights and even nullification. (And you dare call ME ignorant?! HAH!)
146 BMI727 : Actually it can be. That's basically what neoconservatism is: using economic and military power to improve the lives of people around the world. Actu
147 PPVRA : And I keep pointing out the good side of it, and you ignore it. Good things and bad things can be attributed to both those issues, but you choose to
148 garnetpalmetto : I know that - tell that to PPVA :-P
149 PPVRA : Are you gonna pull a D L X and just ignore arguments that don't suit you? I am very well aware of what the 14th amendment does.
150 garnetpalmetto : Which arguments am I ignoring? Sorry but I've lost track of the thread in the last few hours. By all means requote them and I'll address them.
151 Zentraedi : Problem is that the Tea Party is rife with social conservatives. Social conservatism is fundamentally incompatible with fiscal conservatism.
152 PPVRA : Reply 104 if you want to take part on what me and D L X have been discussing, plus #140 and #142.
153 D L X : Seriously? You know, this is one of the rare occasions where bringing up Nazis is actually appropriate. States' rights and nullification are the hall
154 garnetpalmetto : Obigrado. It was hardly a single-sided affair (no matter how much some of the people in this part of the country like to whine about "The War of Nort
155 PPVRA : This is debatable. Lincoln, despite being an abolitionist, has been quoted saying he would have avoided the war if the only issue was slavery. You do
156 D L X : This is like a battle of heavyweights! I love it! Yes, but still the WAR itself was about whether states had rights. South Carolina thought it had th
157 PPVRA : So who really started the war? The South says bye bye, but the north refuses to pull their troops out. Provocation 1. The north sends ships down to r
158 Mir : I agree with both these statements. You lose me when you claim that neoconservativism is in any way similar to liberalism. Which is a more anti-feder
159 avent : I guess this must be why the Republicans are so supportive of Obama during a time of 2 wars...
160 Revelation : Thanks for proving the point that I was making: You are doing the same thing you accuse Avent of in #120, namely:
161 Post contains links avent : Not really. One only has to look at the secession declarations from the southern states to see that slavery was the issue and the States Rights was i
162 PPVRA : You sound like a Republican now. I was referring to the Union's reason for fighting.
163 avent : No, you said the state's right to slavery was debatable: So you were responding the the South's reasons. But you then immediately added: So you switc
164 Post contains links Baroque : Now that deserves to be preserved rather than hidden away in an a.net thread. Mind if I use it where necessary? Well maybe not. You see Fosters is ta
165 PPVRA : The South didn't go to war over slavery, because that was never the issue since Lincoln was willing to drop it. You quote three or four declarations
166 BMI727 : Liberal or idealist foreign policy is based on balances, improving peoples lives around the world, and cooperation. The conservative realist policy i
167 casinterest : Wrong , Wrong , Wrong. Don't go revising American History. Especially since you wear a Brazil flag. There would have been no reason for the South to
168 PPVRA : Seceding is not the same thing as going to war. That was my point with that reply.
169 casinterest : It was when they took over United States Property and then refused to allow resupply. The Tea Party as a whole though is much like the Southern State
170 D L X : I think most people would beg to differ.
171 PPVRA : I wonder why. . Sounds a lot like what Democrats just recently did and what's about to happen to them this year. . . assuming the "experts" predictio
172 avent : If Lincoln was reluctant to go to war because of slavery, it does not mean slavery was not the ultimate reason; it simply means that early in the gam
173 PPVRA : And what was the immediate threat worth spilling blood over, if not slavery? What is so egregious about the act of secession that makes it more abhor
174 LXA333 : Im pretty sure that if I ever drew a Keynesian model liquidity trap graph and just left it sit on a board with a bunch of modern republicans ( who cla
175 Post contains links and images EA772LR : Holy smokes batman!!!! Are we talking Sarah Palin/others or are we talking Obama/cronies? It seems that spending trillions in 2 years is working real
176 avent : Good questions, but oddly phrased since you have been arguing it was not slavery, but now imply it was with your first statement. In fact, I cannot o
177 PPVRA : How did I imply it was slavery? I never backtracked on my statement, if anything I reinforced it. Fort Sumter was attacked because Lincoln wouldn't l
178 Post contains images Ken777 : What about moderates who believe in looking at both sides of arguments? Middle of the road types who believe it is unwise to march lock step to the e
179 EA772LR : You're not being honest here Ken. The Democrats think that spending trillions in additional spending would reduce the deficit how again?? Wars in Ira
180 Tranceport : I'm an American living in Canada for the past decade, and if this is what you believe then you've either been misinformed or are willfully ignorant.
181 Post contains images Ken777 : Not being honest? With the Bush tax cuts costing Trillions how can you call that not being honest? And how can the Republicans/Conservatives/Tea Part
182 avent : It's implied by your wording here: I'll assume because you have a non-us flag on your account this must not have been what you meant. Irrelevant. Why
183 Dreadnought : CBO says that the cost of Iraq to date has been $1 trillion, not three. The various stimulus acts over the past 2 years have spent more money than th
184 Post contains images Baroque : It might be grief and aggravation to you, but to most in other countries and I dare say more than a few in the US it is the way to a better and more
185 AGM100 : Not fundamentally At odds in my opinion ... but certainly not the same priorities. Yes in some ways .... because it is not the government job to eith
186 474218 : I really don't think its only the Republican party that doesn't want moderates: Perhaps you remember a Senator from Connecticut that was for the war
187 Dreadnought : Just like any business, you need some G&A to provide some services and infrastructure the company cannot do without. It's overhead. You need it,
188 DocLightning : I've always maintained that death panels would be one of the best things to happen to American healthcare. I can give case after case after case of m
189 PPVRA : Your statement indicated that "early in the game" the reason for the war was not slavery. My statement, when taken in that context, does not imply wh
190 Post contains images Ken777 : Long. Term. Costs. Unless, of course, the conservatives worship their personal pocketbooks over the commitment of this nation to care for it's vetera
191 casinterest : It was the reason for war. Directly and indirectly. Lincoln's hand was forced by his decision to uphold the constitution. You may need to investigate
192 474218 : I think you missed the point. The Tea Party members are running in the Republican primary's without the backing of the Republican party. But the Demo
193 PPVRA : So you are saying he chose, but really didn't? I see. .
194 casinterest : No you don't. But you have to understand the principle of integrity and dedication to a country, whiile balancing the words of advisors. You also nee
195 casinterest : delete this message edited above[Edited 2010-09-19 19:50:15]
196 avent : What non-slavery issues were they?
197 Baroque : An assessment of large mining companies in Aus some years ago came up with 100% loading on direct costs and I do not think that has changed. If you l
198 PPVRA : Sorry, but there are a lot of people who actually studied this issue deeply who would disagree with you. This idea that Lincoln went on an anti-slave
199 PPVRA : You need to do your own research. I am not going to start posting different theories and start defending each, for one because I don't think they are
200 avent : Clearly you don't like a dose of your own medicine. The bottom line is, there are very few, if any, historians, who would disagree with the statement
201 PPVRA : I don't disagree with that statement. But to say that slavery, then war, is FALSE based on historical evidence. This is where your argument falls.
202 Baroque : Could I suggest you try it round the other way and tell us what really, really did cause the civil war?
203 PPVRA : Secession and Lincoln's disapproval of it is what I have put forward.
204 avent : And since secession was based on slavery, and you say Lincoln disapproved of secession, then you are saying slavery was the underlying reason - which
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