Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
US Lib Dem Leadership Ignores Pleas From Moderates  
User currently offlinedxing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (4 years 3 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2345 times:

32 more moderate members of the democratic party have stated that taxes shouldn't be raised on anyone in the middle of a recession. Their pleas so far have fallen on deaf ears from their leaders. Good luck getting anything passed before January Libs.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100916/ap_on_bi_ge/us_tax_cuts_62


The divisions extended well into Democratic ranks on Capitol Hill. Moderates and conservatives in tight races were skittish about the prospect of being branded tax hikers at the height of election season if a bill to let taxes rise for the
wealthy is brought up for debate. Other Democrats said they relish the idea of holding a vote to extend only the middle class tax cuts and daring Republicans to vote against it.


As it stands lib democrats have to worry about their own moderate and conservative members voting for it. Just like the health care bill, how many votes will have to be bought?


Underlying all of this is, how is it paid for? The President and the leadership in the House and Senate have not said how the tax cuts for anyone will be paid for. What programs will be reduced or frozen to pay for the extensions of the cuts? That's something liberal democrats have been complaining about for years. Well now is the time to put up or shut up. Tax cuts always raise revenue but unfortunately from 2000 to today political leaders of both sides have shown that for every extra dollar they get, they are willing to spend a dollar and change in return. Until we get leaders willing to spend less than that extra dollar earned nothing will change.

That's not confined to liberal democrats either. Tea party members are big about saying they want to reduce the size of government but small on concrete plans of how they will do it. Right now nobody gets my vote. One side wants to raise taxes on the very people that create jobs and the other wants to cut the size of government but has no concrete plan on how to go about it. I'm still waiting for the person that has a complete plan to come forwared. Congressman Ryan out of Wisconsin probably comes the closest but his plan is just an outline as well.

At this point as long as the GOP picks up enough seats to throw Congress into gridlock I'll be happy.

51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6731 posts, RR: 24
Reply 1, posted (4 years 3 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2331 times:

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
I'm still waiting for the person that has a complete plan to come forwared.

You may be waiting a long time. No one wants to come forward with a plan, because they know if the plan is implemented it will mean major layoffs and massive cuts for millions of Americans. What politician wants to come up with a plan that will slash benefits (and therefore raise people's cost of living) PLUS cause millions to lose their jobs? Whoever implements such a plan will quickly find themselves not getting re-elected.

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
Tea party members are big about saying they want to reduce the size of government but small on concrete plans of how they will do it.

That's because many of the tea party members are big users of government services (Medicare, Social Security, farm subsidies, etc), the exact programs which need to take the biggest cuts if we want to balance the budget.


User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2292 times:

This is going to be a huge development as the Dems fight amongst themselves on that upper tier tax cut. The stakes are high. If they let them expire and jobs don't improve Obama is toast. In fact you would think the Dems would make a decision on that now because if they say they aren't letting it expire it only helps them in the November election.

User currently offlinedxing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2239 times:

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 2):
In fact you would think the Dems would make a decision on that now because if they say they aren't letting it expire it only helps them in the November election.

They've blocked any action since they were implemented, obfuscated in Congress since they took over in 2006, and now at the last minute want to blame the GOP for not going along with their plan when 32 of their own members don't agree with it. Go figure.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 1):
You may be waiting a long time.

True, but not for the reasons you cite.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 1):
That's because many of the tea party members are big users of government services

Feel free to cite your sources. They don't have a plan because there is no real leader of that movement.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6933 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2219 times:

Why call them "moderate democrats" ? They look more like center-right wing democrats to me. In fact, it's not even about what they think, but all about what they have to say to not lose the election, no ideology involved at all.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1001 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2200 times:

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
That's not confined to liberal democrats either. Tea party members are big about saying they want to reduce the size of government but small on concrete plans of how they will do it.

Well let's face it. The elephant in the room is the tens of trillions in future welfare obligations that we have no means of funding. We can pay-down the current debt and afford most of today's government functions if we can avert that tidal wave. But if you say anything concrete about touching those, then you get bleeding heart liberals rushing out of the wood work bemoaning how we need "anti-poverty programs" that extend beyond the median income in this country.


Quoting Aesma (Reply 4):
Why call them "moderate democrats" ? They look more like center-right wing democrats to me. In fact, it's not even about what they think, but all about what they have to say to not lose the election, no ideology involved at all.

On the contrary, most of them are highly liberal wolves in sheep's clothing who vote with the party 99% in close votes and vote "moderately" when the bill is going to pass anyway. No one exemplifies this better than Chet Edwards (D) in TX-17.

[Edited 2010-09-16 14:51:03]

User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21865 posts, RR: 55
Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2184 times:

Quoting dxing (Reply 3):
They don't have a plan because there is no real leader of that movement.

And I wouldn't look for them to change that any time soon. A leader would mean that they're an established movement, and with that comes accountability. It's a lot easier just to shout from the sidelines, because you can always use the "well, we're not in power, so we can't do anything" excuse.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6933 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2180 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 5):
On the contrary, most of them are highly liberal wolves in sheep's clothing who vote with the party 99% in close votes and vote "moderately" when the bill is going to pass anyway. No one exemplifies this better than Chet Edwards (D) in TX-17.

So you agree with half of what I said, there is no ideology involved in their "moderate" plea  

[Edited 2010-09-16 15:07:03]


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1001 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2169 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 7):
So you agree with half of what I said, there is no ideology involved in their "moderate" plea  

I do, it's just virtually none of them are center-right. Those two words should never be put in the same sentence with someone who twice voted to make Nancy Pelosi Speaker.


User currently offlineGST From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2008, 938 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2152 times:

From the thread title I thought this would be about UK politics. Oddly enough the same caption could be used to describe the current Liberal Democrat party situation here.

User currently offlinedxing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2140 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
A leader would mean that they're an established movement, and with that comes accountability. It's a lot easier just to shout from the sidelines, because you can always use the "well, we're not in power, so we can't do anything" excuse.

That excuse has been used by both the GOP and the democratic party in recent years so that is nothing new. It really was true until a few months ago but not now.


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8289 posts, RR: 26
Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2095 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 4):
Why call them "moderate democrats" ? They look more like center-right wing democrats to me.

What's with all the labeling? They either support idiotic policy or they don't - in this case, thankfully they don't. Either way, this is just another reason Dems will fail to garner any votes from those of us who are not loyal to any party.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineelmothehobo From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1545 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1971 times:

Funny, I see this crisis happening on the other side of the aisle, where Tea Party candidates are taking out Republicans to the left of them.

The only thing this shows is that the middle of the political spectrum - Centrist Democrats and Republicans - are being squeezed out in favor of the ideologues to the far right and left.


User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1937 times:

Quoting elmothehobo (Reply 12):
The only thing this shows is that the middle of the political spectrum - Centrist Democrats and Republicans - are being squeezed out in favor of the ideologues to the far right and left.

I disagree. I think what we're seeing is a much needed house cleaning in the GOP. The Republicans who've lost have lost because they've campaigned as Conservatives, but their voting record is anything but Conservative. It's exciting to see 'shoe-in' GOP members who voted for bogus non-Conservative garbage get the boot by a Tea Party backed member. And the harder the Left and the LameStream Media tries to marginalize the Tea Party, and make them seem like extremists, the more it backfires. It's about time Americans wake up to the reckless behavior the Democrats and the Republicans have displayed. The problem is, there's a whole lot of people with their hand out, who are content with a massive government as long as they can keep that hand out. Fortunately, many of those folks don't usually vote.



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineCentre From Canada, joined Mar 2010, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1862 times:

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
Libs.

Rush? is that you?



I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
User currently offlineQXatFAT From Israel, joined Feb 2006, 2405 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1817 times:

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
concrete plans of how they will do it

Ron Paul? The man kept on citing how to cut government. He isnt a Tea Party member but the man constantly talked about it 2 years ago. Maybe you just forgot.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 1):
That's because many of the tea party members are big users of government services (Medicare, Social Security, farm subsidies, etc), the exact programs which need to take the biggest cuts if we want to balance the budget.

MSNBC brainwashing at its finest. When you come with more concrete evidence then it would be worth discussing.



Don't Tread On Me!
User currently offlineCentre From Canada, joined Mar 2010, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1805 times:

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 15):
MSNBC brainwashing at its finest. When you come with more concrete evidence then it would be worth discussing.

From what I have seen so far I can add White T, Trailer T, and lots of those who have no idea where D.C is, and in most cases who never left their home state.
What do you expect from people with such an intellect? That's the base for Glen Beck, Sarah Palin and her Wanabies!



I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
User currently offlineelmothehobo From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1545 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1779 times:

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 15):
MSNBC brainwashing at its finest. When you come with more concrete evidence then it would be worth discussing.

Most red states benefit from higher federal subsidies per capita than most of their blue state counterparts. There are exceptions of course, Texas, North Carolina, Georgia and Virgina for example (which have traditionally been "red"), and Alaska which is blessed with natural resource wealth. On the other hand there are blue states (and territories) which get substantial amounts of federal funds, including Puerto Rico, Maine, Hawaii, Guam.

Those highways, agricultural subsidies and military bases don't pay for themselves, it's states like California, Texas, New York, Illinois, etc that pay for them.

Simply put, there is a next outflow of capital from wealthier blue states and a net inflow of federal funds to red states.


User currently offlineQXatFAT From Israel, joined Feb 2006, 2405 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 months 3 days ago) and read 1769 times:

Quoting Centre (Reply 16):
From what I have seen so far I can add White T, Trailer T, and lots of those who have no idea where D.C is, and in most cases who never left their home state.

Once again...no evidence. Psh this is out of controll people.

Didnt we learn that sterotyping is "bad". Might as well say that all Mexicans are illegal. I guess I am illegal.

Proof please on all of your Tea Party bashing.



Don't Tread On Me!
User currently offlinedxing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (4 years 3 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1752 times:

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 15):
Ron Paul?

Nope, didn't forget. He swings the pendulum to far to the other direction. Federal government needs to be smaller and more efficient, stick to it's Constitutional obligations, not almost disappear as he suggests.


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11798 posts, RR: 15
Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1747 times:

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 13):
The Republicans who've lost have lost because they've campaigned as Conservatives, but their voting record is anything but Conservative.

That's because they are center-right and, at the same time, being accused of being socialist, communist, liberal Democrats by the likes of Palin, Rush, Beck, et al.

Quoting elmothehobo (Reply 12):
The only thing this shows is that the middle of the political spectrum - Centrist Democrats and Republicans - are being squeezed out in favor of the ideologues to the far right and left.

Let me go back to the episode where Olympia Snowe (R-ME) voted to move health care debate from committee to the floor. The committee did not need her vote to move debate to the full Senate. Yet, when she voted "yes" the entire extreme right (Palin, Rush, Beck, et al.) were up in arms about her voting "liberal" and how dare a "liberal" be in the right-wing and so on and so forth. That is the biggest example I know of right off of the extremist right-wing ignoring moderate republicans. It happens all the time with primaries, as well.

Funny thing is, when so-called "liberals" (the ones labeled as extremists and "socialists") want to get legislation passed, they actually talk with thier own party members instead of making them out-casts and smearing them.

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 15):
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 1):
That's because many of the tea party members are big users of government services (Medicare, Social Security, farm subsidies, etc), the exact programs which need to take the biggest cuts if we want to balance the budget.

MSNBC brainwashing at its finest. When you come with more concrete evidence then it would be worth discussing.

Have you seen any of the tea rallies? I can simply look at those rallies and see how many are either on Social Security and/or food stamps and/or Medicare and/or are veterans who recieve care and benefits through the VA. All "socialist" organizations. Care to explain how it will look when the tea people who love Americans so much cut these "socialist benefits" and those that are so near and dear to the cause end up on the streets? How is that going to look for the blessed "tea party?"



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinedxing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1731 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 20):
on Social Security

They had taxes confiscated from them over their working lives so all they are doing is getting their money back, less any interest for the time it was taken from them.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 20):
and/or food stamps

Proof?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 20):
Medicare

Again, they had taxes taken from them for most of their working ives so they are only getting back what they had taken from them, again less any interest.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 20):
are veterans who recieve care and benefits through the VA

The Constitution mandates that the federal government provide for the defense of the States. Since these people served their country, sometimes against their will (drafted) they deserve our respect and care. I find it highly offensive as a veteran myself that you would call taking care of those that served to defend all of us "socialist".


User currently offlineelmothehobo From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1545 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1718 times:

Quoting dxing (Reply 21):
The Constitution mandates that the federal government provide for the defense of the States. Since these people served their country, sometimes against their will (drafted) they deserve our respect and care. I find it highly offensive as a veteran myself that you would call taking care of those that served to defend all of us "socialist".

The idea of state care for veterans is hardly free market, laissez faire, capitalist, etc... It is a very "socialist" concept.


User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6924 posts, RR: 34
Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1713 times:

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
Congressman Ryan out of Wisconsin probably comes the closest but his plan is just an outline as well.

Ryan's Roadmap is actually VERY detailed.

http://www.roadmap.republicans.budget.house.gov/


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21865 posts, RR: 55
Reply 24, posted (4 years 3 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1705 times:

Quoting dxing (Reply 21):

They had taxes confiscated from them over their working lives so all they are doing is getting their money back

In other words, "cut spending, but not at my expense."

There are a lot of programs out there that could be trimmed or cut entirely, but doing so is going to require sacrifice on the part of everyone. If the Tea Party isn't willing to give up some stuff themselves, they're not going to get anywhere.

Quoting dxing (Reply 21):
I find it highly offensive as a veteran myself that you would call taking care of those that served to defend all of us "socialist".

It's transfer of wealth. Why should someone who opposed the war in Iraq from the start have to give up some of their hard-earned money to pay for its costs (one of which is the medical care of those who fought in it and were injured) if they think that said money could be put to better use? That is indeed socialism.

Why not let the VA be private, and funded by voluntary contributions? Surely there's enough support for veterans in the country that they'd get whatever it was they needed without the government having to take out of everyone's pocketbook.

[/devil's advocate]

I don't have a problem with the VA myself, but yes, it is rather socialist. Which just goes to show that not everything that is socialist is a bad idea.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
25 QXatFAT : I agree but that is a starting point correct? You have the current status of HUGE government and then Ron Paul of getting rid of a lot. Now the Ron P
26 DocLightning : Huh? Since when were taxes confiscatory? Taxes are and always have been part of the United States. It's in the Constitution, and not even in an amend
27 EA772LR : Thank you for making my point. Like I said, the reason these GOP members are losing to TEA Party backed members is because the GOP members are runnin
28 elmothehobo : Taxes were originally to be levied only during times of war. Obviously that changed. One could argue, however, that the 16th Amendment did open the d
29 Post contains images Ken777 : Then why did the Bush/Cheney Tax Cut increase the national debt? Only the really wealthy saw major increases in their wealth. The middle class got sc
30 Post contains images DfwRevolution : Because the middle class did not practice wealth-building. They didn't get screwed, they squandered an opportunity. Instead of using the extra dispos
31 474218 : Because Bush spent money like a Democrat. Bush was as far from being a conservative as Obama is from being a moderate.
32 seb146 : I have heard what the tea leadership says. They want something for nothing. They want all this "national security" (read: Patriot Act and very heavy
33 DocLightning : Show me that line in the Constitution.
34 BMI727 : Actually pretty much everything that is socialist is bad. The VA is a legitimate benefit extended to those who serve in the military. It might not be
35 dxing : No, in other words, give me back what you took from me. No it is not a transfer of wealth. Part of the bargain service members get when they were eit
36 Mir : We've got a growing deficit. In other words, we're spending more than we're taking in. If we ever want to reverse that trend (and I think we do), we'
37 QXatFAT : Miss-understanding again of the Tea Party. That is actually the "left" side of this country. They feel intitled to things. "Where is mine?" attitude.
38 elmothehobo : It doesn't say so explicitly in the Constitution, it was the defacto way of doing things in the early years of this country. Congress is granted the
39 Post contains links Yellowstone : A common misconception. Note this important phrase (emphasis mine) - "no capitation, or other direct tax" - what exactly is a direct tax? In US const
40 Starbuk7 : NO, it means the the government needs to stop spending so much on welfare programs and only be spending on what they are supposed to be spending on,
41 seb146 : When has anyone on the "left" ever said that? I am simply pointing out the hypocracy of the tea people; they want national security, Medicare, VA ben
42 Post contains links Baroque : I suppose with evolution not being all that well accepted in parts of the US, this guy's approach will not resonate everywhere. But I draw it to atte
43 Post contains links dxing : That is incorrect. What is needed is for spending to remain below income same as it is for you and me. Just because you have a printing press does no
44 Slider : This was already answered quite aptly insofar as the obvious discussion about overspending by citizens, credit card debt, overextension on home equit
45 Post contains images Ken777 : Contributions? They have been made. It's called "serving" Huey Long was a populist. Can you see the fits he's cause the COnservatives & TP folks?
46 BMI727 : In smaller towns I could see that, but in large cities where there are plenty of medical facilities VA care could be done by other doctors and hospit
47 Ken777 : There is a cost difference between VA and private care. That is one of the good factors of VA medicine. Another is the fact that the doctor can order
48 BMI727 : I'm not a healthcare expert, but it might be worth looking at the costs and whether the costs of VA could be reduced. I have to admit that this is th
49 Yellowstone : Not quite sure you got the main thrust of my argument - income taxes on wages are Constitutional even without the 16th Amendment. The only taxes you'
50 Post contains links dxing : No, I did and I just don't agree with your summation. Several times before the 16th amendment the federal government tried to impose a tax in incomes
51 Yellowstone : Not because it was unconstitutional, but because it was politically unpopular. Income taxes on income from property were ruled unconstitutional. Not
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Man Who Burned Koran Fired From His Job. posted Tue Sep 14 2010 20:22:43 by NIKV69
UK Teen Banned From US Over Obama E-mail posted Mon Sep 13 2010 16:42:35 by futurepilot16
Only Child Wants To Move Away From Home posted Wed Sep 8 2010 17:07:38 by KLM672
Hazards Of Reporting From Hicksville, U.S.A.... posted Sat Sep 4 2010 11:35:35 by aaway
How Do I Get From Downtown SFO To Reno/Napa Valley posted Wed May 12 2010 00:35:13 by United Airline
5 Random Songs From Your Ipod posted Sat May 8 2010 16:46:49 by lhr380
Unable To Send Email From Gmail To Cellphone Email posted Fri May 7 2010 09:59:28 by wardialer
Fragment From Halley's Comet Streaks Western ARG posted Thu May 6 2010 08:28:26 by Derico
ESC - Blast From The Past! posted Mon May 3 2010 13:56:25 by Mortyman
NetFlix Members: Where Do Your Discs Ship From? posted Wed Apr 28 2010 22:31:06 by FRAspotter