Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Has Detroit Hit Rock Bottom?  
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19419 posts, RR: 58
Posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2595 times:

In a thread I posted about a year ago, I commented that I had returned to my hometown of Detroit and found it decimated. In the fall of 2009, Detroit was (and still is today) a ruin. At rush hour, freeways were sparsely populated. The majority of lots are vacant and abandoned buildings outnumber intact ones. There are cars that have sat in the same place on the curb for the better part of a decade.

It seems that Detroit has hit rock-bottom. And that's encouraging, because once you've hit rock-bottom, the only way to go is...up.

This is a documentary about a number of people who have moved into Detroit and who are slowly but surely rebuilding the once-great city. It's obvious that Detroit will not regain its former glory in the lifetime of anyone alive today, but much as seedlings sprout in the ash left over from a volcanic eruption, it appears that small pockets of life are rising from the ashes of what was the Motor City.

http://www.palladiumboots.com/exploration/detroit

29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2858 posts, RR: 30
Reply 1, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2555 times:

Detroit will have hit "rock bottom" when its decades-long population decline comes to an end and the city starts growing again. In 1950 Detroit boasted a population of almost two million people (1,849,568 to be exact), as of 2009 it was estimated that less than half that number call Detroit home (910,920). When you consider the fact that the city has not grown for 60 years (two generations!) it's not surprising to see the many problems you have today.

There will always be brave young souls bucking the trend and trying to find opportunities to lead happy successful lives in the city. But these folks are few and far between (I would never consider living in the city of Detroit, nor would anybody - friends, family, even casual acquaintances - that I know) and let's face it, even those yuppies shown in the film will probably abandon the city for the leafy suburbs when it comes time to raise kids of their own.

I don't see Detroit's situation changing anytime soon. The city has an extremely negative reputation that puts off most folks from ever visiting, let alone considering living there. Until you start hearing about happy vacations and relocation success stories to Detroit, the city will continue to decline like other once-great Rust Belt cities - Buffalo, St. Louis, etc.



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39717 posts, RR: 75
Reply 2, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2554 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
It seems that Detroit has hit rock-bottom.

If Cap & Trade goes through, Detroit's fall will continue.
The result would kill off the last remaining manufacturing jobs left.

I would love to see Detroit turn around. That city has so much potiential and should be a world class city. It's the only major city on the US/Canada border and the Detroit/Windsor metro area should be a major destination and economic powerhouse.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2858 posts, RR: 30
Reply 3, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 2510 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
It's the only major city on the US/Canada border and the Detroit/Windsor metro area should be a major destination and economic powerhouse.

Since when did Buffalo stop being a major city on the U.S./Canada border?

Seattle may not be right at the border, but it's still an easy day trip for folks from Southwestern B.C. (particularly those in and around Vancouver).

I take it you have not driven through Detroit and into Southwestern Ontario. Windsor's economic situation is, not surprising, about the same as Detroit. It is just as gritty, bland, and blue collar as its American counterpart, albeit on a smaller scale. After Windsor you have vast rural emptiness until you start hitting the Golden Horseshoe area. By that point, Buffalo is much more accessible than Detroit. There is very little reason for Detroit to ever become a "major" destination for well-off Canadians at all!



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2815 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2491 times:

I blame Robocop. It was negative publicity. Besides, that movie was stupid.

User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7943 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2473 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
If Cap & Trade goes through, Detroit's fall will continue.

So'n Quatsch ... sorry, I mean strict environmental regulations can help the industry to stay competitive or regain competitiveness. The current significant economic upswing we enjoy in Germany has more than only one reason, but one reason *is* exactly that: cap & trade or relatively strict environmental regulations.
Remember: Green is in fashion in the corporate world.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39717 posts, RR: 75
Reply 6, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2375 times:

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 3):
Since when did Buffalo stop being a major city on the U.S./Canada border?

Not much on the other side.

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 3):
Seattle may not be right at the border, but it's still an easy day trip for folks from Southwestern B.C. (particularly those in and around Vancouver).

I guess you've never been there then because it's at least an hour & a half drive through forest once you leave Seattle before you hit the border. They're not the same metro area.

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 3):
I take it you have not driven through Detroit and into Southwestern Ontario.

Been through there several times and even have a trip report at this site with photos from the entire Detroit/Windsor metro area. I don't need any lectures about something I already know.

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 3):
There is very little reason for Detroit to ever become a "major" destination for well-off Canadians at all!

Dude, why are you shouting?



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2346 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
It's the only major city on the US/Canada border

So? I'm not clear why that matters.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
the Detroit/Windsor metro area should be a major destination and economic powerhouse.

Why should it be a major destination?


User currently offlinecedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8061 posts, RR: 54
Reply 8, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2327 times:

I find it astonishing that Detroit isn't able to attract more corporate HQs given that it has nonstop airline service to 160 cities? Including nonstops to multiple cities in Asia and Europe? I would think it's nonstop Asian connections are as good as New York - SEL, NRT, HKG, PVD etc. Europe ain't looking too bad either - LHR, FRA, AMS, CDG. Apparently Sao Paolo will start soon. I will concede it's mostly for connecting traffic, but hey, it's there, that's all that matters. Surely this must make Detroit very attractive to any large corporation?

And DTW is also a really nice airport, I flew through it last year to get a ride on DC-9-30, -40 and -50 (got em all, and some great memories, thanks NW / DL), and I was incredibly impressed by how pleasant the terminal is airside, lots of natural light, classy architecture, super easy to get from one gate to the other, and that tunnel! Wowee! Could have been cheesy but it's actually the coolest and most awe-inspiring airport experience you can have.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
If Cap & Trade goes through, Detroit's fall will continue.

'Fly, my Rush-loving friend, you are someone I always look for as a voice of reason in the bonkers Palin & Co threads (and elsewhere). But when environmental concerns come into the discussion, your position is extreme and, I think irrational - and this is the best example yet. Even if global warming is not human-related, there are loads of great reasons why we need to pollute less - air and water quality (and hence human health), species diversity (it is the food chain after all), etc. Steps in this direction can only create jobs and wealth. Are you arguing here that while the rest of the world marches on with new technology and more efficient and creative energy use, America can only flourish using old, non-renewable (eg carbon) and highly polluting technology?



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 962 posts, RR: 51
Reply 9, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2326 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
This is a documentary about a number of people who have moved into Detroit and who are slowly but surely rebuilding the once-great city.

As important as documenting the recovery should be documenting why the decline took place. It can serve as a cautionary tale for present and future generations.

There's an exodus taking place in the Gulf of Mexico right now that is eerily similar to the loss of steel mills and manufacturing plants that left the midwest in the 1980s.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19419 posts, RR: 58
Reply 10, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2287 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):

If Cap & Trade goes through, Detroit's fall will continue.
The result would kill off the last remaining manufacturing jobs left.

I disagree. There are very few manufacturing jobs left. At this point, even if they all evaporated tomorrow, it wouldn't make much difference. Detroit's future is not in manufacturing. My guess is tech (computer, bio, green) will carry the city back.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
It's the only major city on the US/Canada border

Seattle? I mean, it's a 40 minute drive to the border, but then again, the US/Canada border at Detroit is in the middle of the river.


User currently offlineGQfluffy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2278 times:

Until this changes...



(Red- Caucasian, Blue- African-American, Green- Asian, Orange- Hispanic...odd that middle eastern isn't colored, but notice the large white spot by Dearborn)

...what could possibly change? The city of Detroit has been dying for years (regardless of the economy and the loss of thousands of jobs due to the US Car Industry all but tanking) because no one wants to live there. Hell, even the people living there would rather live out in the 'Burbs if they could. The plan to demolish whole neighborhoods which are practically empty is controversial, but probably the best thing for the city.


User currently offlineALTF4 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1209 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2247 times:

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 8):
I find it astonishing that Detroit isn't able to attract more corporate HQs

Maybe I'm showing ignorance here, but I think there's many, many, many other things that go on the checklist in the "Moving Corporate HQ's 101" document before quality air service, let alone how "nice" the airport is. The world doesn't revolve around aviation, contrary to probably just about everybody's wishes here on A.net.

I have not been to Detroit, but I must say, just from what I hear about it, just above every city would place above Detroit.

[Edited 2010-09-27 11:07:08]


The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2240 times:

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 12):
I have not been to Detroit, but I must say, just from what I hear about it, just above every city would place above Detroit.

Absolutely. What selling point would Detroit have other than air service and, perhaps, affordable housing. In virtually every other way you could rate it against other cities it would come up short.


User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2529 posts, RR: 23
Reply 14, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2187 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I was in Detroit visiting friends this past May.
Their house is in an old neighborhood near downtown that is full of large estates that date back to the early 1900's. Just a block away from my friends home is the first estate of Herny Ford and family. A beautiful place. Some of these estates are still beautiful places, however you better be careful of what lurks next door.

My friends garage was full and I was asked to drive a block away to park my car in their sisters garage overnight so it would still be there in the morning! I was taken on a tour around the neighborhood and some of the old estates were terribly run-down and the grounds in terrible condition. I was told there were all kinds of drug dealers and other such people that had moved into some of the estates and their friends had also purchased some of the fine old homes. The housing market being so depressed you can buy these old estates for practically nothing!

There are some people like my friends who got their old estate at a bargain and have spent a lot of money updating it. They have kept up the grounds keeping and it is a beautiful place. Just two doors down is an estate in ruin with all kinds of low-life hanging around on the front stoop, abandoned old cars, etc. Mud where lawns used to be. My friends go to bed hearing all kinds of noise all night long. Yelling, screaming, automatic weapon fire, sirens, tires squealing,etc.

The crime in the neighborhood is through the roof! We went out to dinner, but were careful to return before dark.
What a shame. I would not want to live like that. What good is it trying to gentrify an old home when all around you is crime and decay? I really give the good people in that neighborhood credit for hanging on in that war-zone.

Where it not for the huge old estates I would have sworn I was in College Park or East Point, Georgia! Now some of those neighborhoods are war-zones for real!

No, I wouldn't want to live in Detroit, and even if I could afford to live in a wealthy suburb such as Grosse Point, it is still uncomfortably close to a decaying old city rife with crime. No thanks.



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 15, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2139 times:

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 11):
The city of Detroit has been dying for years (regardless of the economy and the loss of thousands of jobs due to the US Car Industry all but tanking) because no one wants to live there.

   It wasn't that nice of a place before the latest economic troubles.

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 12):
I have not been to Detroit, but I must say, just from what I hear about it, just above every city would place above Detroit.

I hear that Mogadishu is nice this time of year.

Actually, that could be an interesting game show. Show contestants pictures and have them guess whether it is a picture of Detroit or somewhere in Africa.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinevirgin744 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 919 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2104 times:

Quoting Glom (Reply 4):
I blame Robocop. It was negative publicity. Besides, that movie was stupid.

No it wasn't!! It was, and still is an all time classic. Only the sequels were stupid!


User currently offlineGuitrThree From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2042 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2042 times:

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 8):
I find it astonishing that Detroit isn't able to attract more corporate HQs given that it has nonstop airline service to 160 cities?

Really? You find it astonishing that a cold as hell place filled with nothing but empty building's, extremely high taxes, and union only employment can't attract corporations? Your answer to all that is a nice airport? Might want to look south for your answer.....

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 8):
Even if global warming is not human-related, there are loads of great reasons why we need to pollute less - air and water quality

Please, let me educate you on something. Superfly's views on cap and trade are not extreme. Your's are. Why? Cap and Trade does nothing to stop real polition. It is the buying/selling/trading of carbon credits. Carbon, my friend, is not a polutant. You exhale it everytime you breath. I'm all for clean air and water, but cap and trade does *NOTHING* to stop that.



As Seen On FlightRadar24! Radar ==> F-KBNA5
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7943 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2009 times:

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 17):
Cap and Trade does nothing to stop real polition. It is the buying/selling/trading of carbon credits. Carbon, my friend, is not a polutant. You exhale it everytime you breath.

This is both right and wrong. Carbon dioxide is not really a pollutant, but it is unwanted nonetheless, hence it can be considered a pollutant. Even if you don't believe in anthropogenic reasons for the climate change, emissions should be limited, as they also pose a thread to e.g. sea life. Not to mention that the emission of carbon dioxide usually goes along with the emission of other pollutants.
Breathing has nothing to do with it, as you can only exhale CO2 you had previously inhaled or eaten in form of e.g. vegetables.

I agree with Doc: Provided the existing infrastructure is being maintained, Detroit will see a new spring at some time. But it will be a more modern, "greener" industry that brings the city back.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19419 posts, RR: 58
Reply 19, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1990 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 9):

As important as documenting the recovery should be documenting why the decline took place.

I can tell you exactly why it took place: Detroit put all its eggs in one basket. That's such a bad idea that we have an old cliché warning us against doing it. The cliché says: "Don't put all your eggs in one basket." *deadpan*

The City basically put all of its stock in the auto industry and eschewed all other industries. To make things even worse, they dismantled any public transportation systems that existed, put in vast trench freeways so that all the executives could quickly and easily commute into the downtown area to work and the flee/fly/escape home to their sprawling estates in Bloomfield Hills/Birmingham/Grosse Point.

So a few things happened. First, all the executives fled the city so that they could live on lakes and rolling estates in the aforementioned suburbs. That killed the economy of the city. Calling it "white flight" is really missing the mark. It was "affluent flight." Yes, most of the affluent folks are white (I'm not blind), but blaming it on race is way too simplistic. Believe it or not, a good portion of Lahser HS (which is part of the Bloomfield Hills Public School System) is Black.

But the biggest and stupidest thing that the City did, on top of really horrible urban planning, was to focus all of their energy on one and only one industry: the auto industry. In the '80's when Japan became a serious competitor, the industry started to die. The manufacturing centers moved overseas to Japan. When manufacturing came back to the U.S. in the '90's, it came back to Chicago and Atlanta and Tennessee, but not to Detroit. With no other industry to sustain the economy, Detroit bit the dust. Local support and subsistence industries, as well as government jobs (border crossing) managed to carry the city along through the 2000's, but the brief recovery from 2005-2007 never did reach Detroit. When the auto industry crashed in 2008-2009, it was all over. Detroit is a ghost town.

If you compare Detroit to Chicago, you see that Chicago did much better planning. First, they did not court a single industry, so as various industries have risen and fallen the city has marched on. They also did not provide trench freeways all over the metro area, but they did provide mass transit, which led to more transit-oriented development with higher density and less sprawl. They were very careful to preserve the waterfront, which kept property values high. The result is that Chicago is a vibrant, bustling, cosmopolitan city.

I want to point something out about what the documentary showed: the people moving back into the city and taking it over have one major thing in common: they're young. The older folks out in the suburbs are not moving back. But the young folks without much money are moving back in, and as they age and become young professionals, they may well slowly revitalize the city. Hopefully they will not make the same mistakes that their forefathers made.

As for me, I'm quite happy to be out of there.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19419 posts, RR: 58
Reply 20, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1974 times:

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 17):
Carbon, my friend, is not a polutant. You exhale it everytime you breath.

The carbon you breathe out was part of the ecosphere before you ate it. The carbon coming out of your exhaust pipe was not. Big difference.


User currently offlineGuitrThree From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2042 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1950 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):
The carbon you breathe out was part of the ecosphere before you ate it. The carbon coming out of your exhaust pipe was not. Big difference.




Yea.. and the carbon coming out of my exhaust pipe is eaten by every plant, tree, and everything else green and growing and they all convert it back into Oxygen. Don't see the problem here. Nothing but natural fertilizer for the plants here.



As Seen On FlightRadar24! Radar ==> F-KBNA5
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1936 times:

If you had never been in the United States before and I drove north over the Ambassador Bridge from Windsor to Detroit, through the slum/ghetto that sits on the Detroit side, you would swear you were in a third world country.

User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7943 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1919 times:

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 21):
Yea.. and the carbon coming out of my exhaust pipe is eaten by every plant, tree, and everything else green and growing and they all convert it back into Oxygen.

Again: Yes and no. Even without the the carbon dioxide coming out of exhaust pipes, there's plenty of CO2 to allow plants to grow.
Just because there's more CO2 will not make plants grow faster nor bigger.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39717 posts, RR: 75
Reply 24, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1874 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 5):
Remember: Green is in fashion in the corporate world.




...and so was dotcom 12 years ago.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
There are very few manufacturing jobs left. At this point, even if they all evaporated tomorrow, it wouldn't make much difference.




Actually there is still a significant chunk still operating.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
green) will carry the city back.




Detroit is becoming greener and greener everyday.
Weeds are growing in areas once occupied by those evil species called human beings.

In a way, Detroit is already an environmentalist utopia.
There is lots of 'greenspace', the manufacturing plants are no longer putting out emissions (they simply closed down and went to other countries) and power consumption in Detroit today is much less than it was 30 years ago.
Hmmmm.......   

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj96/Rush8track/Detroit2009123.jpg

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj96/Rush8track/Detroit50.jpg

Perhaps this is the vision the environmentalist want for America.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
They were very careful to preserve the waterfront, which kept property values high. The result is that Chicago is a vibrant, bustling, cosmopolitan city.



Are you kidding?!?!?!
The Robert Taylor Homes project was at the lakefront and was a cesspool of violent crimes and drug dealers. The went on for 30 years before they were torn down. The last one was demolished in 2007. Property values had suffered throughout that part of Chicago and still hasn't fully rebound.
You're only thinking of the northside of Chicago which has always been wealthy. Totally different story when you go south of The Loop.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
Chicago did much better planning. First, they did not court a single industry, so as various industries have risen and fallen the city has marched on.




Chicago has always had multiple industries, even before the automobile.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
Calling it "white flight" is really missing the mark. It was "affluent flight."



No it's not. I have relatives that moved in to working class white neighbourhoods and initially dealt with harassment and then the whites moved out shortly after. These were not "affluent" people.
This happened in Chicago and I doubt it was any different in Detroit.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 17):
Cap and Trade does nothing to stop real pollution. It is the buying/selling/trading of carbon credits. Carbon, my friend, is not a pollutant.



  

Oh but what the hell, it at least sounds good.



Bring back the Concorde
25 BMI727 : People say the same thing about Chernobyl. There's nothing wrong with being green as long as it doesn't come at the expense of anything like money or
26 Post contains images Superfly : I know it isn't easy being green but I do like green lights and money. Lot's of two-legged cattle in Chicago. Chicago is a financial hub as well. Tha
27 Flighty : Detroit, and Michigan, would do well to adopt the tax structure and labor laws of Texas. The core of the city is great but needs new incentives to bri
28 DocLightning : You never took a chemistry class, did you? But this isn't a carbon thread. Nope. You're talking about immediately the waterfront. I'm talking about t
29 Post contains images Superfly : Actually there are factories on Chicago's waterfront. You need to go further south past 83rd. street and yes there are factories on Chicago's waterfr
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
The S**t Has Now Hit The Fan! posted Sat Dec 17 2005 19:06:00 by Alberchico
Detroit Fire Truck Left On Tracks Gets Hit! posted Wed Mar 24 2010 15:00:45 by DXing
Go Spartans In Detroit Rock City! posted Sun Apr 5 2009 06:54:22 by Stretch 8
Teen Birth Rate Has Hit A Record Low posted Tue Jul 17 2007 06:32:09 by MaverickM11
Looks Like "the Rock" Has Left WWE posted Thu Jul 12 2007 02:47:05 by PC12Fan
Self Gloss: Finally, The Rock Has Come Back To posted Sun Mar 25 2007 12:04:11 by HPLASOps
Birdflu Has Hit The US :-( posted Fri Nov 18 2005 10:10:51 by OYRJA
Has The US Been Hit By Manu Chao Yet? posted Mon Dec 24 2001 12:29:16 by NUAir
Now This Is What A Real Lib Dem Has To Say posted Thu Sep 23 2010 06:18:42 by Baroque
Tax Increase Would Hit Few Small Businesses posted Sat Sep 18 2010 09:10:06 by Ken777