dxing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2420 times:
In a Rolling Stone interview to be published Friday, well it's another Jimmy Carter moment for our President. It's not that he has failed to try and work with the GOP or that some of his ideas are just bad that is leading to a serious threat that the democratic party may lose power in Congress this year, no, if it happens it will be his party members fault for being "irresponsible".
WASHINGTON – Admonishing his own party, President Barack Obama says it would be "inexcusable" and "irresponsible" for unenthusiastic Democratic voters to sit out the midterm elections, warning that the consequences could be a squandered agenda for years.
Notice, not what might be good for the nation but a squandered "agenda".
The president told Democrats that making change happen is hard and "if people now want to take their ball and go home, that tells me folks weren't serious in the first place."
Not that they might not agree with all his ideas, just that they aren't "serious" if they don't.
"It is inexcusable for any Democrat or progressive right now to stand on the sidelines in this midterm election," Obama said.
What emerges in the magazine story is a stern, lecturing tone from Obama.
Yep democrats, it's all your fault and none of his. Yes we can!
Slider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6518 posts, RR: 37 Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2353 times:
OzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2598 posts, RR: 4 Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2307 times:
He's right. Usually, electorates get "the government they deserve". In electing Obamah, the US electorate who re-elected the Bush administration after the cat was totally out of the bag on most of the lies, got a president and to some degree, an administration, BETTER than they deserve: that is, way ahead of the political and social responsibility they seem to be ready for or willing to go the distance to support. Partisanship aside, Obamah is a chance for America, and one that could be squandered.
People, everywhere, not just in the US, are intellectually lazy and have short memories and limited attention spans for the issues that will really matter to them in the long term. The more cynical elements in politics and the media exploit this infantile tendency of the electorate to sensationalize, misinform and create controversy. The electorate are complicit as they don't pay attention and prefer infotainment to journalism, sensation to the hard road to economic and social reform. That the GOP are better players at this game is not a compliment.
So, the US has a chance. It is still there for the taking. Will the electorate have the strength of character and attention span to go the distance or will they shamefully descend to be no more than Limbaugh and Fox fodder. Time will tell.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
OA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4980 posts, RR: 25 Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2301 times:
Quoting dxing (Thread starter): Admonishing his own party, President Barack Obama says it would be "inexcusable" and "irresponsible" for unenthusiastic Democratic voters to sit out the midterm elections,
He's right.
Quoting dxing (Thread starter): It's not that he has failed to try and work with the GOP
Yet the GOP has just bent over backwards to work with him right? Give me a break.
Quoting dxing (Thread starter): Notice, not what might be good for the nation but a squandered "agenda".
And the Contract for America has nothing to do with "agenda" and all to do with what's good for the nation? I'll say it again, give me a break.
Quoting dxing (Thread starter): "if people now want to take their ball and go home, that tells me folks weren't serious in the first place."
Once again, he's right. Change takes time, and those who thought that it would happen on January 20, 2009 at the push of a button have little to no historical knowledge.
Quoting dxing (Thread starter): "It is inexcusable for any Democrat or progressive right now to stand on the sidelines in this midterm election," Obama said.
He's right. When you see the opposition rallying the troops in the way that we have been seeing over the last year or two, siting out the election and "not caring" is inexcusable.
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 3): People, everywhere, not just in the US, are intellectually lazy and have short memories and limited attention spans for the issues that will really matter to them in the long term.
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 3): The more cynical elements in politics and the media exploit this infantile tendency of the electorate to sensationalize, misinform and create controversy.
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19717 posts, RR: 56 Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2275 times:
Quoting dxing (Thread starter): In a Rolling Stone interview to be published Friday
Sounds like this thread came about three days early. Instead of reacting to a couple of quotes, why not wait for the full article?
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
StuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1781 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2247 times:
Quoting Mir (Reply 5): Sounds like this thread came about three days early. Instead of reacting to a couple of quotes, why not wait for the full article?
Fair point.
Quoting dxing (Thread starter): Notice, not what might be good for the nation but a squandered "agenda".
But "agenda" is from the article. That's not what Obama said. Unless it's in the full article.
So if your not in agreement with the person you voted for you should just vote for him anyway?
Quoting OA412 (Reply 4): Yet the GOP has just bent over backwards to work with him right? Give me a break.
Obama would do better to worry about the moderates in his own party which are much more damaging.
Quoting OA412 (Reply 4): Once again, he's right. Change takes time, and those who thought that it would happen on January 20, 2009 at the push of a button have little to no historical knowledge.
Depends on what change you are talking about. The change he spoke about before he took the oath or after.
Ken777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7461 posts, RR: 5 Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2220 times:
Voters these days want problems solved as fast as their internet works.
That doesn't happen.
We won't be able to fix a lot of issues by the mid-term elections:
Great Recession - starting to turn the point, but consumers and businesses are hoarding their money, not spending and not hiring. It's based on confidence and the Republicans have kept that down with their continual "opposition attacks" on the Administration.
Health Care Reform - a start, but the loss of public options kept the costs in the employers camp and they are continually finding the cost increases from private insurance companies. If we had shifted to a tax based on profits/income this Great Recession might not have come down so hard on the country, especially in the employment areas.
Iraq - finally getting out of this expensive (in blood & treasure) and totally unnecessary war.
Afghanistan - unless we simply declare victory and leave this is going to be a long term problem. If we leave I believe that terrorists will get their hands on huge amounts of resources that will finance terrorism for decades. If we stay then the first group to stand up needs to be those in the top tier tax brackets. Can you see them standing up for America? LOL!
Taxes - If you don't like the deficit then let the Bush Tax Cuts expire. If you could care less about the deficit then fight to keep the cuts - or increase them - with the simple answer of cutting the government by a third.
VA - help for Veterans with a Secretary we might actually be able to trust. Far better GI Bill than Bush & McCain wanted.
There is a concerning Op-Ed in the NY TImes today that presents a fairly informed view of the US from a distant view, which is sometimes pretty close:
The New American Normal
Quote: LONDON — The “animal spirits” of which Keynes spoke are on the prowl across the United States. Their mood is ugly. The spirits are wary and troubled. Corporations and individuals are hoarding cash, when they have any, because they’re not buying into the recovery.
On a weeklong visit, I found a mood of deep unease in an America that seems to have descended into tribalism — not ethnic, but political, economic and social. Uncertainty is pervasive. The government’s rescue of Wall Street combined with the acute difficulties of a middle class struggling to get by on stagnant or falling incomes has sharpened resentments.
dxing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2187 times:
Quoting OA412 (Reply 4): Yet the GOP has just bent over backwards to work with him right? Give me a break.
They came up with ideas for compromise on almost every bill and yet where was the President?
Quoting OA412 (Reply 4): And the Contract for America has nothing to do with "agenda" and all to do with what's good for the nation?
Balancing the budget is an "agenda" similar to cap and tax??
Quoting Mir (Reply 5): Sounds like this thread came about three days early. Instead of reacting to a couple of quotes, why not wait for the full article?
The quotes are from the interview. If it is substantially different or if the quotes aren't there then I will be wrong.
Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 6): But "agenda" is from the article. That's not what Obama said. Unless it's in the full article.
The way the article words it, it is what he said. Again, if it isn't in the interview then I will retract tht portion of the post.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 8): Voters these days want problems solved as fast as their internet works.
Yep, I remember telling you the samething about the Iraq war. Unlike the war no progress seems to be being made on the ecnomy which is not dependent on rooting out insurgents and terrorists.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 8): Great Recession - starting to turn the point, but consumers and businesses are hoarding their money, not spending and not hiring. It's based on confidence and the Republicans have kept that down with their continual "opposition attacks" on the Administration.
Americans' view of the economy turned grimmer in September amid escalating job worries, falling to the lowest point since February. The downbeat report, released Tuesday, raises more fears about the tenuous U.S. economic recovery. It also further underscores the disconnect between Wall Street and Main Street; consumers' confidence fell further even as stocks rebounded in September
Not falling because of the GOP, they get next to no face time on national TV compared to the President.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 8): Iraq - finally getting out of this expensive (in blood & treasure) and totally unnecessary war.
Thanks to the exit strategy worked out by the Bush administration. As I have said, this President is very good at following others good plans.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 8): Taxes - If you don't like the deficit then let the Bush Tax Cuts expire.
Never a word about cutting the size of govenment. Just spend spend spend. I heard a perfect explanaiton of your apparent attitude in regards to government. You want all profits socialized and all losses privatized.
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19717 posts, RR: 56 Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2160 times:
Quoting dxing (Reply 11): I didn't take it out of context.
Well, you quoted an article which did, and used it to make your point. Which is pretty much the same thing.
I interpret those quotes very differently from you, and I don't see anything objectionable about them, but that doesn't really mean much without the rest of the interview.
Wait until Friday.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
Ken777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7461 posts, RR: 5 Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2135 times:
Quoting dxing (Reply 9): Not falling because of the GOP, they get next to no face time on national TV compared to the President.
Ya gotta be kidding!
We see the Tan Man all the time on TV working hard to be the next Speaker of the House. Then there is Senator Botox who is given a ton of TV time.
But then I tend to watch CNN when the news is on and they give both sides about the same amount of time.
Quoting dxing (Reply 9): Thanks to the exit strategy worked out by the Bush administration. As I have said, this President is very good at following others good plans.
Bush did E-V-E-N-T-U-A-L-L-Y decide to think about exiting Iraq - after someone told him he had been there longer than we were in Vietnam, the public was clearly against his largest SNA FU and Obama made it clear that he would do something if elected.
Oh, and Bush finally stopped believing Cheney could do no wrong.
Quoting dxing (Reply 9): Never a word about cutting the size of govenment. Just spend spend spend
I don't have a problem with tight budgets. I have no problems going for upgrading KC-135s and delaying the KC-X until the budget gets better. And when the budget gets better then I have no problems going like h=gang busters on the KC-X. ANd let's add in some DDGs that can fight closer than 40 miles.
Now if you're talking about screwing up my Social Security after I paid in since I was a teenager - forget it. Same with Medicare.
When you're moaning that these programs can't "be paid for" in the future I've got no sympathy. I took the increases over the years. So did our parents and our grandparents. Suck it up.
Want to cut the cost of the VA? Stop invading countries unnecessarily. When you reduce the time you spend at war you can reduce long term payments to Veterans who served. That is a double did on "cutting government spending". Lower costs to keep the military manned and loaded with capital equipment. And reduced payments to Veterans. Pity Bush & Cheney didn't understand that conservative (and liberal) fact of life.
Quoting dxing (Reply 9): I heard a perfect explanaiton of your apparent attitude in regards to government. You want all profits socialized and all losses privatized.
Actually I sucked up all the losses my business had just as I enjoyed the profits. The only time I worked for the government was when I was in the Navy.
I've been supportive of small and large business incentives, especially in areas like accelerated depreciation. Supported shifting health care costs from the costs of goods sold to a tax on profits - which is something that leaves conservatives confused.
You have to be kidding. During the health care law he was given an entire day on ABC. When he requests time on national TV he gets it. President Bush was ignored at least once by several of the major networks.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 12): Bush did E-V-E-N-T-U-A-L-L-Y decide to think about exiting Iraq
President Bush negotiated our withdrawl, after the surge worked as intended and the security situation on the ground in Iraq became stable enough for the majority of our combat troops to withdraw. Had we listened to President, then Senator, Obama, we would have left Iraq a political and security mess. That's exactly our plan starting next July in Afghanistan.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 12): Now if you're talking about screwing up my Social Security after I paid in since I was a teenager - forget it. Same with Medicare.
Newsflash, your social security and medicare are already screwed up. They've just gotten more screwed up thanks to the new health care law.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 12): When you're moaning that these programs can't "be paid for" in the future I've got no sympathy. I took the increases over the years. So did our parents and our grandparents. Suck it up.
The increase that will be necessary to actually pay out the benefits promised dwarf any increase you had to "suck up" during your working years. Like it or not the day of reckoning is drawing ever closer.
Ken777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7461 posts, RR: 5 Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2023 times:
Quoting dxing (Reply 13): Had we listened to President, then Senator, Obama, we would have left Iraq a political and security mess. That's exactly our plan starting next July in Afghanistan.
Had we listened to Obama when the original vote was taken to invade Iraq for Cheney's fictitious WMDs we would not have gone into that massively expensive war in the first place.
Quoting dxing (Reply 13): Newsflash, your social security and medicare are already screwed up. They've just gotten more screwed up thanks to the new health care law.
Social Security probably did fall behind during the Bush Years - remember when he wanted to toss our retirements into the 14000 DOW market? Another indicator that conservatives can talk a good line, but don't serve average Americans when they get into office.
As for the new health care law, try putting on a CFO hat for a while and think of corporate budgets with and without health insurance premiums & administration. Compare the ongoing monthly and annual costs of our overpriced system with a system where you pay an income/profits based tax when you are profitable and don't pay that tax when your company doesn't make a loss.
But then everyone knows that Corporate CFOs are flaming liberals!
Quoting dxing (Reply 13): Like it or not the day of reckoning is drawing ever closer.
And that should scare you.
Half a century ago I had a history teacher who said, "Everything changes, by evolution or revolution"
But this country works to keep change from occurring simply because of the Dollar we tend to worship. Compared to other advanced democracies both of our political parties have traditionally been pretty close. Lots of noise at election time, but then both sides worked for America. Now money talks more than love of country and things are pretty ugly.
The gap between the top and the bottom earners? Never been higher.
The level of poverty in the country? Hard to believe. Read a headline about Texas with a 17% poverty level. 17%!
Personally I don't believe that the Conservatives understood how bad things were until it was too late. Now they are backed into a corner, especially with the Tea Party driving the party this election. If there are no change then there will be a day of reckoning in the not too distant future, and it will be one that you're not thinking about.
3 or 4 elections from now, with the white population in the minority, poverty still increasing and health care reform repealed causing more misery (and bankruptcies) in the country. Gonna be an election that scares even the moderates. But you and your buddies will have brought it on yourselves.
OA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4980 posts, RR: 25 Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2012 times:
I wonder why the OP isn't getting bent out of shape over Sarah Palin's telling Tea Party supporters to "buck up" as reported in the article on the Tea Party in Rolling Stone in the same way that he is getting bent out of shape when President Obama said it. Could this possibly be a case of "fake outrage"?
Quoting dxing (Reply 8): They came up with ideas for compromise on almost every bill and yet where was the President?
You mean their attempts at destroying the health-care bill? Or the fact that the Democrats watered down the health-care bill to such a degree as to make it unpalatable to those who wanted it to go farther just to placate the GOP and still none of them voted in favor of it? Yeah real great bipartisanship there.
Quoting dxing (Reply 8): Balancing the budget is an "agenda" similar to cap and tax??
Yes given how often the budget has been balanced over the last half-century and how often it has been balanced by a Republican dominated congress I'll believe that promising a "balanced budget" isn't agenda and strategy when I see it.
Quoting Mir (Reply 9): And could not possibly be taken out of context to suit a particular agenda, right?
Oh come now, how could you suggest such a thing?
Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 6): So if your not in agreement with the person you voted for you should just vote for him anyway?
And your proof that Democratic voters are not in agreement with the person for whom they voted is what?
Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 6): Obama would do better to worry about the moderates in his own party which are much more damaging.
Don't deflect in an attempt to minimize the fact that the GOP has fought the President on everything from day one and has acted in as partisan a manner as possible.
Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 6): Depends on what change you are talking about. The change he spoke about before he took the oath or after.
It does not depend on anything. Obama promised change, yet many people in this country have such poor knowledge of history that they believed that change would happen with a push of a button. Change takes time.
dxing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1992 times:
Quoting OA412 (Reply 15): I wonder why the OP isn't getting bent out of shape over Sarah Palin's telling Tea Party supporters to "buck up" as reported in the article on the Tea Party in Rolling Stone in the same way that he is getting bent out of shape when President Obama said it. Could this possibly be a case of "fake outrage"?
Perhaps because Sarah Palin is not the President of the United States and therefore not the defacto leader of the political party. And it's not outrage, it's wonderment that someone supposedly so smart would do something so dumb.
Quoting OA412 (Reply 15): You mean their attempts at destroying the health-care bill?
So much for compromise. In your world it evidently goes down a one way street. So when the President says "I won" that is the end of compromise for him, and evidently you as well.
Quoting OA412 (Reply 15): Or the fact that the Democrats watered down the health-care bill to such a degree as to make it unpalatable to those who wanted it to go farther just to placate the GOP and still none of them voted in favor of it? Yeah real great bipartisanship there.
Lets get it straight one more time. The democratic party had a 60 seat majority in the Senate. That is something the GOP never had from 1994 to 2006. It means that the democratic party could bring to the floor of the Senate any vote they wished and win it since the GOP could not sustain a fillibuster over a cloture vote. The House is overwhelmingly owned by the democratic party as well. The failure of any part of the health care bill, as viewed by liberals, is only due to one party, the DEMOCRATIC PARTY. They were in charge with complete and absolute control. Any attempt to blame the GOP for any percieved failures of the bill is just ridiculous and the voters are smart enough to see that, as well as what a bad bill they finally did pass into law. They also saw the Louisanna purchase and cornhusker kickback to name just two. Liberals also saw one of their favorites, Dennis Kucinich, cave after a plane ride as were conservative democrats when Bart Stupak and cronies caved when given a promise, and a promise that he can't even legally keep, on abortion funding.
Nope, you can spin it anyway you like but the democratic party was in total charge and any shortcomings in the health care law fall squarely on their shoulders.
Quoting OA412 (Reply 15): Yes given how often the budget has been balanced over the last half-century and how often it has been balanced by a Republican dominated congress I'll believe that promising a "balanced budget" isn't agenda and strategy when I see it.
Last 50 years? From 1960 to 1967 a balanced budget was the norm, then came Vietnam, the space race, and most expensive of all, the Great Society programs. 1967 to 1995 the government ran deficits with the democrats being in charge from 1967 to 1994. From 1995 to 2010 the government ran a balanced budget for 5 years with the GOP in charge and then 6 without with the GOP in charge and further 4 years now with the Democratic party back in charge.
Quoting OA412 (Reply 15): Don't deflect in an attempt to minimize the fact that the GOP has fought the President on everything from day one and has acted in as partisan a manner as possible.
And what did the democratic party do from 2000 to 2006? Was it all wine and roses? Hardly. As liberals here on this forum were quick to point out, it was their patriotic duty to fight the President tooth and nail.
Ken777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7461 posts, RR: 5 Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1986 times:
Quoting dxing (Reply 16): Nope, you can spin it anyway you like but the democratic party was in total charge and any shortcomings in the health care law fall squarely on their shoulders.
Especially their efforts to work with the Republicans. They should have known not to actually trust the right.
Quoting dxing (Reply 16): it was their patriotic duty to fight the President tooth and nail.
After the SNAFUs and FUBARs from Bush/Cheney you are surprised both the democrats and the voters were Bush?
Golly, the conservatives showed us how bad a job they could do and you're surprised that the voters (slowly) understood how bad they were.
Your hope now is that the voters forget how bad things really were under the conservatives: Government of the rich, by the rich and for the rich.
san747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4936 posts, RR: 13 Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1976 times:
Quoting dxing (Reply 16):
So much for compromise. In your world it evidently goes down a one way street. So when the President says "I won" that is the end of compromise for him, and evidently you as well.
Offering adjustments and modifications that would completely undermine the intent of the bill, balking when Democrats don't accept them, then not offering anything else isn't compromise. It's a childish attempt to say "Look, we tried!" and play the victim.
Quote: Compromise:
–noun
1.
a settlement of differences by mutual concessions; an agreement reached by adjustment of conflicting or opposing claims, principles, etc., by reciprocal modification of demands.
Compromise would have been accomplished when both parties made concessions that both found acceptable and combined them into the bill.
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16826 posts, RR: 57 Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1944 times:
Quoting dxing (Reply 8):
They came up with ideas for compromise on almost every bill and yet where was the President?
If by "compromise" you mean filibuster, then I agree.
Frankly, I think that Obama was our last, best hope, but he failed.
You have two groups of people who want completely unsustainable and irrational things. On the Right, you have people who want no taxes and basically no federal government (except the bits they like, like roads and especially the military), and (often) a state religion. Anyone who doesn't agree with them is a Marxist/Communist/Stalinist and they are SO intent on stopping the other side that we even saw sentiments from people like Dreadnought who were ready to sink their own businesses to harm the country.
On the Left you have people who want only the rich to pay taxes, who want vast entitlements, credit forgiven, and they want it all without having to work.
On the top you have corrupt fat cats who create money from nothing by granting loans that they cannot back up given to people who cannot afford them with absurd interest rates. The same fat cats, who don't want to pay taxes, also want a government bailout and they'll take their miltimillion dollar bonuses with them.
On the bottom you have an entire entitlement class of people who never had a job, will never have a job, have child after child on the government's dime. You also have other members of that class who actually do have jobs but who will game the government to pay for their kids by figuring out how to not report their income.
The wealth distribution indicates that our middle class is vanishing/all-but-vanished.
The U.S. is finished.
I don't know how it's going to happen and I suspect it will take decades. Probably a civil war will be involved. But I think that the bell is tolling.
474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 10 Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1936 times:
Quoting dxing (Reply 8): They came up with ideas for compromise on almost every bill and yet where was the President?
You don't understand the meaning of the word "compromise". It means that Republican go along with the Democrats, is does not mean that Democrats go along with Republicans.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 7): Iraq - finally getting out of this expensive (in blood & treasure) and totally unnecessary war.
So you think Iraq would be better off still having Saddam Hussein power and the UN sanctions in place?
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 14): Had we listened to Obama when the original vote was taken to invade Iraq for Cheney's fictitious WMDs we would not have gone into that massively expensive war in the first place.
Since Mr. Obama was not in the Senate at the time so his vote will never be known.
StuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1781 posts, RR: 1 Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1930 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19): The wealth distribution indicates that our middle class is vanishing/all-but-vanished.
Finished in the sense that our best days are behind us (near term) in terms of power, wealth and respect? Probably. Finished as in... done for? I'm not sure about that.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19): I don't know how it's going to happen and I suspect it will take decades. Probably a civil war will be involved. But I think that the bell is tolling.
It's awfully hard to imagine how that would unfold. It seems impossible to me (the war part).
Ken777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7461 posts, RR: 5 Reply 22, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1924 times:
Quoting 474218 (Reply 20): So you think Iraq would be better off still having Saddam Hussein power and the UN sanctions in place?
Yep.
But don't ask me. Ask the families of those who died in that worthless war. Ask their kids who lost a parent, a parent who lost a chile or someone who lost a spouse.
Ask them if it was worth it to get rid of Saddam.
And then I'll be asking the conservatives if they are willing to pay taxes long term to replenish the military and take care of the Veterans over the next 60+ years.
Wanna bet their answer?
Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 21): Finished in the sense that our best days are behind us (near term) in terms of power, wealth and respect? Probably
I believe that things will be tough for a while to come. COnservatives will return to power and more of the nation's wealth will move to the rich. But there is a limit that will be reached. At that point the electorate will jerk things back in a harsh manner.
Until then spend a little less and put your savings in something besides the dollar.
fr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 4265 posts, RR: 12 Reply 23, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1923 times:
Are we too stupid? Too backward? Too red-neck? Or, do we understand that the road Obama is leading us down diverges too far from our Constitution and our founding principles?
Quoting OA412 (Reply 3): Yet the GOP has just bent over backwards to work with him right? Give me a break.
But why should the GOP or Conservatives budge? The political agenda laid out by the Triumvirate is the antithesis of any propositions of Conservative thought. Why should Conservatives budge?
Quoting san747 (Reply 18): Compromise would have been accomplished when both parties made concessions that both found acceptable and combined them into the bill.
But, why compromise when the bill is the very opposite of your own agenda. In my opionion, in this case, doing nothing is better then doing something just to say 'we did something'.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19): Frankly, I think that Obama was our last, best hope, but he failed.
No, he was a stark reminder of what is on the other side of the aisle. He is a reminder of what America could look like if we forget our origins. I think he's exactly what we needed to wake us up.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19): I don't know how it's going to happen and I suspect it will take decades. Probably a civil war will be involved. But I think that the bell is tolling.
I wouldn't go that far. But, if we continue to allow The Left to define everything around race, class, etc., it can have no effect but to polarize the nation.
dxing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1918 times:
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 17): Especially their efforts to work with the Republicans. They should have known not to actually trust the right.
Name one single major agenda item on which the democratic party was willing to negotiate on. Trust the right?
Why did they have too? Again, they owned Congress and the White House. They couldn't even get their own members to agree without buying their votes and yet the GOP was supposed to vote for something that runs completely counter to their values?
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 17):
Your hope now is that the voters forget how bad things really were under the conservatives:
Don't have too. The voters are seeing what the President really meant by hope and change and they don't agree with it. More telling is rather than see they don't agree with it and work with the GOP to get something done that the people do agree with, he continues to blame his predecessor, the GOP in general, and now his own supporters.
Quoting san747 (Reply 18): Offering adjustments and modifications that would completely undermine the intent of the bill, balking when Democrats don't accept them, then not offering anything else isn't compromise. It's a childish attempt to say "Look, we tried!" and play the victim.
They offered a number of amendments, with the very few exceptions of technical adjustments, they were voted down along party lines. Undermining? Where you see that I see an enhancement. The democrats didn't offer any compromise, save to buy the votes of their own members and they were in charge.
Quoting san747 (Reply 18): Compromise would have been accomplished when both parties made concessions that both found acceptable and combined them into the bill.
The GOP gave the President, Speaker Pelosi, and Senator Reid a list of things they wanted to see in the bill. There was no compromise on any of them, just an out right denial and party line vote against them in the various committees.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
If by "compromise" you mean filibuster, then I agree.
Again, the democratic party held a 60 seat majority for almost a year. The GOP could no more have sustained a filibuster than they could force amendments to the floor for a vote.
All I see above are excuses. The democratic party was in total charge for the past 21 months and they have done nothing to work with the GOP. The health care bill, the GM bail out, the failure to address the upcoming tax increases fall squarely on their shoulders and the voting public realizes that.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19): On the Right, you have people who want no taxes and basically no federal government
Baloney. What we want is a fair tax AND spending cuts to match. The Constitution says what the federal governments role and authority is. It has far outgrown and outstripped what lies within that document. It's time for the pendulum to swing back the other way.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
On the Left you have people who want only the rich to pay taxes, who want vast entitlements, credit forgiven, and they want it all without having to work.
Baloney. What they want is power. As much power as they can lay their hands on. If they were for tax cuts for the middle class they would not have wasted as much time as they have and allowed the middle class to suffer a tax increase in January as is probably going to happen.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 22):
And then I'll be asking the conservatives if they are willing to pay taxes long term to replenish the military and take care of the Veterans over the next 60+ years.
Providing for the common defense of the States, raising and maintaining and Army and Navy are requirements of the federal government in the Constitution so no conservative is going to have a problem with that.
I'm still waiting for an explanation of how anyone thinks that blaming your supporters or telling them to stop whining, or buck up is any kind of a way to get them fired up to come out and vote for you.
25 Ken777: You always forget that the Democrats are a fairly broad Party - they've got everything from Liberals to Conservatives. And the Republican Party has g
26 OzGlobal: If you read on you'd know I explained what I meant:
27 DocLightning: My guess is that the system has become too unstable and unsustainable. Between a culture that encourages mass consumption, a form of fierce nationali
28 san747: Yes. Iraq was stable, and it wasn't our responsibility to "save" them. Totalitarian dictators are never a good thing, but in the big picture, a stabl
29 dxing: And they have to buy their votes to get them. Not this time according to the polls. If what you say were true then the democrats would have no fears
30 fr8mech: Really? You're telling me that the Left is not engaging in class warfare right now? They are not trying to split the population down some economic li
31 Alias1024: I have no problem with what he said. The Republicans are far more energized for this election. If you believe in the agenda of President Obama, or eve
32 fr8mech: No, a nation that has to settle for mediocrity; where the producers are forced to provide for the 'entitlement class'. Where government is pervasive.
33 Dreadnought: I'd say we are off-road entirely. Congress is headed home today to campaign. The Democratic majority - the biggest majority in nearly 4 decades, was
34 474218: Tell that to Joe Lieberman who's sin according to the Democrats was supporting the War on Terror". So the Democrat party backs a ultra left winger th
35 StuckInCA: I could argue the same for Republicans. See, I usually vote Democrat and I don't collect anything from the government (other than driving on the road
36 474218: The first step to "recovery" is admitting you have a problem?
37 Alias1024: That's change. American has been through change many times before and will doubtlessly go through it many more times. I'd be more concerned if we wer
38 474218: I would prefer that the citizens of several of the countries you listed rise up on their own and choose a different form of government. However, if a
39 fr8mech: I don't mind change, but what our leadership is trying to change is the fundamnetal fabric of what has made America great. And that is wrong.
40 Ken777: Look at Senator Botox - top Republican in the Senate and never one to turn down pork for his state. But, of course, no one ever bought his vote with
41 Dreadnought: You're still beating that dead horse? The Dems have a solid majority, and budgets have been successfully passed for decades by the slimest of majorit
42 Ken777: Read something that isn't put out by the Tea Party or RNC and you'll see articles about business holding back on investing in growth because of a lac
43 fr8mech: No, I doesn''t start with confidence. It's uncertainty. Banks and businesses are holding their cash because they don't know what this government is g
44 Slider: That's Bart Stupak. aka, Dead Pol Walking
45 474218: I stand corrected. But it still shows how the Democrat Party is so inclusive.
46 dxing: Apples and Oranges. Speaker Pelosi and Senator Reid bought votes from elected officials by promising them perks for their States. Much different than
47 Alias1024: I had no problem with removing a government that harbored and actively aided a group that had just murdered thousands of Americans. I doubt you will
48 Ken777: Business is not seeing consumer spending and they are holding back because of it - for the msot part. Some companies have the confidence in the consu
49 DocLightning: Um... where are those jobs, then? Tax cuts have been in place, are in place. So where are the jobs?
50 dxing: As I said, pork is wrong, but what the Louisanna purchase et al were, were buying no votes to turn them into yes votes at the expense of every other
51 Cadet57: How about in the two 2 years or so he has been in office?
52 Ken777: Considering the beating Louisiana took during Katrina I really don't feel too bad that their representatives pushed for more funding. Leveraging posi
53 Cadet57: I never said he could have fixed it all, but he sure could have gotten a lot done. DADT? Could have been fixed with a single pen stroke. But naa, he'
54 474218: How can the tax payers keeping their own money cost the government anything? I guess you think its all the governments money and they should determin
55 Ken777: Not all government money. Not all yours either. It's called taxes. Been paying it all my life, just like my father and my grandfather. And none of us
56 dxing: If that had been funding to rebuild or repair then you would have a point. Since it was all about getting their medicaid bill all paid for by the fed
57 dxing: Might as well forget it. Ken believes it is the governments to take as it wants and WE the people have no right to protest that. If we do we are cry
58 WarRI1: Every once in awhile, there is a set of words that are so hypocritical that they cannot be ignored. It was stated, what Ken777 endorsed, would put hi
59 474218: What does any of this have to do with Obama telling his minions to "buck up"? I suggest it be deleted and a new thread be started if you want to bitc
60 Ken777: State money is state money. Doesn't matter if it's Medicaid or highway funds - after Katrina they needed all they could get. But the conservatives to
61 WarRI1: Suggest all you want, that is petty. Let the moderators decide, that is their job to read them and delete, if they deem it off topic enough to delete
62 dxing: Nowhere because most of those jobs were union jobs and they priced themselves right out of the market place, or they allowed foreign competitors to o
63 Dreadnought: Forget it DXing. Some people are like my wife - they go on a wild shopping spree and then get upset at you because you don't have the money to pay th
64 dxing: Well Ken evidently solves that problem by taking the money out of his wallet, loaning it to his pocket, and then paying the bill promising to pay bac
65 WarRI1: Ho HUm! Let us all take a deep breath and try, just try to come up with some lines that are original. When you have read the same tired lines put out
67 Dreadnought: If you are tired of job outsourcing, do something about it. For the past year or two, I have been pretty diligent about looking at "Made in..." label
68 WarRI1: Good for you. I agree. I have driven my family and friends crazy over this for years. I once bought union made, now, I am thrilled to just find somet
69 WarRI1: Read again, I said that "IS" Democracy. Too long to write the definition, I suggest you read a dictionary. I seems to fit what I said.
70 Dreadnought: It's not a difference - I also am against exploitation. But I feel that asking for 6 weeks of vacation (plus a couple weeks worth of sick days, aka a
71 WarRI1: [quote=Dreadnought,reply=70]It's not a difference - I also am against exploitation. I side with you on exploitation. Evil practice. I disagree on the
72 dxing: As much as "Buck up" is. Supporting the party and supporting the person in office are two quite entirely different things.
73 WarRI1: Well, I guess when nitpicking as some are prone to do on here, I will concede that I did not make that clear. I certainly have no problem with folks
74 Ken777: Actually, Alaskans have continually received more than they send in year after year. The millions that Palin kept was teh "bridge to nowhere" money.
75 san747: Thank you. The Tea Party are a bunch of whiners that came out of the woodwork last year complaining about spending when it was no longer a Republican
76 dxing: And as I have said, and as McCain to his credit does, money on pork should not be spent. If it is spent the project in question should be openly deba
77 WarRI1: What a joke, they are already there, where do you shop? My son called last night, he threw away a tube of toothpaste his wife bought made in Taiwan.
78 Ken777: Start with Charity Hospital. One of the great teaching hospitals in the country for generations. Then toss in Oshners (sp?) the Mayo Clinic of the So
79 dxing: That is still not "health care" as a persons health care is an intangible. The Bush administration, and as I have said repeatedly I disagreed with it
80 Ken777: "Health care" can also refer to the health care delivery infrastructure. You don't really believe that infrastructure escaped damage from Katrina. Or
81 dxing: The health care law does not address, in any way, shape, or form health care infrastructure. As a matter of fact it studiously ignores the fact that
82 Dreadnought: After 9 years of Democrats calling the Bush tax cuts "Tax Cuts For The Rich", it appears that it is the lower and middle classes that will be hit the
83 Dreadnought: After 9 years of Democrats calling the Bush tax cuts "Tax Cuts For The Rich", it appears that it is the lower and middle classes that will be hit the
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