kiwiinoz From New Zealand, joined Oct 2005, 2044 posts, RR: 5 Reply 2, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2670 times:
Some of the less "mythical" aspects probably occurred and got twisted and expanded over time, (as all good stories do). The character of JC was probably loosely based on a real person, and the church saw an opportunity to write a bit of propaganda
So yes, there are probably some bits based on fact. However, the overall premise....complete hogwash
The old testament is the belief of a bronce age tribe and the new testament is the belief of (one of hundreds) cults from this bronce age tribe, written hundred years after the events around the founder of this cult, representing only the interpretations of the writers, about these events.
“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.”
(Seneca, the Younger)
aerdingus From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 2495 posts, RR: 18 Reply 6, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2641 times:
I try really hard not to, because I see it as hearsay. Of course I went to a school that was practically run by the church, when Ireland was pretty much a religious state, and it's kinda scary how much it gets inside your brain, even when you are 6 years old, and makes you kind of brainwashed. I'm kind of trying to undo it all now, and just believe in sense. But I still get a bit scared that God will strike me down for disbelieving. Catholic guilt eh?
BA EI FH FR LX RE SK TS VY ZB 3K 5G A300 A310 A319 A320 A321 A333 ATR72 B735 B738 B744 B772 MD82 BCN BOH BRU CPH CRL DUB
Quokka From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2621 times:
Which bible? There are so many to choose from, and each puts its 'translator's" own interpretations on things. For example, King James Authorised Version has in the Ten Commandments, "Thou shalt not kill."
This seems pretty straight forward: thou shalt not kill means thou shalt not kill. Ah, but there's the problem. How can you justify pressing people into an army and ordering them to slaughter people? Why, you rewrite the bible and it becomes, "Thou shalt do no murder." Killing is killing, but murder is a judicial construct that allows for killing that is lawful and that which not lawful is murder.
A lot of people pick and choose which bits to keep and which to throw away. Some will emphasize the Old Testament, other will ignore it.These days it seems that even the Anglican Church doesn't necessarily "believe in the bible".
Me, I recognise that the bible isn't "The Bible", but a collection of manuscripts written at different times, adding some extra texts and excluding others (apocrypha, pseudepigrapha and Deuterocanonical books). It is part history, part an elaboration of a legal and/ or moral code, part fiction.
GST From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2008, 927 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2604 times:
I think the writers of the books themselves were mostly good people themselves, but who were by and large documenting events they hadn't witnessed, and hence like fisherman's tales went from "the fish was this big" to "the fish was This big" to "the fish was THIS big", before reaching the ears of those who would immortalise them. As such I think many if not most of the stories have an element of truth, but should not of themselves be considered truth.
I think the compilers of the bible as we see it now were doing so for entirely political reasons, editing at will, and reducing the integrity of the stories yet further.
Not trying to know your faith or anything here guys, but I am always confused when people say things like this. If you totally believe in the Bible, how do you feel about/justify scripture like:
-Don't wear clothes made of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19)
-Psychics, wizards, and so on are to be stoned to death. (Leviticus 20:27)
-People who have flat noses, or is blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God (Leviticus 21:17-18)
-If a man has sex with a woman on her period, they are both to be "cut off from their people" (Leviticus 20:18)
-If anyone, even your own family suggests worshipping another God, kill them. (Deuteronomy 13:6-10)
-Talking snakes, light before the sun, the Earth being flat etc...
Once again, this isn't meant as an insult, but I would appreciate if "Bible believing" Christians could offer some insight into whether they believe and accept these verses and many others like them...
tz757300 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2839 posts, RR: 7 Reply 12, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2553 times:
The only things I believe in are the moralistic values stemming from the book. I do think many of them are pretty key to maintain a somewhat sane society. Example being, If everyone was able to kill everyone, then society wouldn't exist right now.
gosimeon From Ireland, joined Jan 2008, 657 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2553 times:
Quoting tz757300 (Reply 12): The only things I believe in are the moralistic values stemming from the book. I do think many of them are pretty key to maintain a somewhat sane society. Example being, If everyone was able to kill everyone, then society wouldn't exist right now.
But are those values really given down to us from Religious scripture? I mean, some societies in Europe today are full of atheists and there are no mass killings going in. Some Eastern religions rely very little on handed-down scripture and they are probably the most peaceful religions.
tz757300 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2839 posts, RR: 7 Reply 14, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2542 times:
Quoting gosimeon (Reply 13):
But are those values really given down to us from Religious scripture?
Well, perhaps not, but I do feel it has a influence on societies due to the widespread following of the bible (and its variants).
Severnaya From Russia, joined Jan 2009, 1390 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2484 times:
Quoting gosimeon (Reply 10): If you totally believe in the Bible, how do you feel about/justify scripture like:
How I feel about some versus, well you're quoting some rather 'cruel' versus, that indeed can be read as offensive to people. However, I read the Bible completely (from the book of Genesis till the book of Revelation), and your quoted texts are only 1 side of the coin. You've to keep in mind that these 'punishments' were given to the Jewish people when it was a very primitive time, and they were living amidst the surrounding tribes which sacrificed children among other things. God did not want His people to follow them and created harsh punishments for those doing those things.
For me, being a Christian i'm not only bound to the first 5 Books of the Bible but have thank God about 60 more. The Levite sacrificial system is for me abandoned by Christ's sacrifice. For me it's great that Jesus came to Earth, where He was ultimately crucified and I believe He was risen from death also for me. He fulfilled the Torah by showing what it means to love God and the people (Mark 12:30-31). He showed love by conquering death as an innocent and thus enabling for people to have eternal life. (John 3:16). This however does not mean that the Thora can be removed from Bible but Christ showed its true meaning of the Thora by explaining parts, see for example 1 John 3:16(love and life), Ephesians 4:28 (stealing and working), Ephesians 5:25 (adultery).
As an example:
Quoting gosimeon (Reply 10): -Psychics, wizards, and so on are to be stoned to death. (Leviticus 20:27)
And again, read further in the Bible where in John 8:7 is written "They kept on asking Jesus about the woman. Finally, he stood up and said, “If any of you have never sinned, then go ahead and throw the first stone at her!”.
gosimeon From Ireland, joined Jan 2008, 657 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2467 times:
Quoting Severnaya (Reply 16): God did not want His people to follow them and created harsh punishments for those doing those things
Then, in fairness, why did he make people sacrifice their children? Why did he kill all the pregnant women and new born children in the Bible? For example:
"The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords." (Hosea 13:16 NLT)
Do you really think the God you know did that? If not, does that not mean you do not fully trust the Bible?
I just don't understand how you can read all that and think the Bible is an accurate reflection of any god. I have pretty much read the whole book, and some parts of it (especially the older parts) are plain sick in my opinion. The NT is mostly nice, to give it credit.
Once again, hope you don't take this as an affront to your faith. I totally respect people of all faiths and none for their beliefs. I just don't get it when people say they fully believe everything in the Bible.
EDIT
Just thinking, this will go on and on like all other threads of this kind, so I guess I will leave the topic be and agree to disagree with you. I would hate to be insulting to anyone's faith, so I will leave it be.
Same here. The Old Testament is filled with hate and loathing but the New Testament is all love and Jesus.
We know that something remarkable happened because it is written in those books. The fact that we can't get our heads round those events is our own problem and something that keeps us pleasantly occupied.
It's a great read.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
MadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10350 posts, RR: 40 Reply 22, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks ago) and read 2389 times:
Quoting Quokka (Reply 7): This seems pretty straight forward: thou shalt not kill means thou shalt not kill. Ah, but there's the problem. How can you justify pressing people into an army and ordering them to slaughter people? Why, you rewrite the bible and it becomes, "Thou shalt do no murder." Killing is killing, but murder is a judicial construct that allows for killing that is lawful and that which not lawful is murder.
A lot of people pick and choose which bits to keep and which to throw away. Some will emphasize the Old Testament, other will ignore it.These days it seems that even the Anglican Church doesn't necessarily "believe in the bible".
Me, I recognise that the bible isn't "The Bible", but a collection of manuscripts written at different times, adding some extra texts and excluding others (apocrypha, pseudepigrapha and Deuterocanonical books). It is part history, part an elaboration of a legal and/ or moral code, part fiction.
You have summarized my feelings about the texts known as "The Bible".
It all came from oral tradition and transmission and many changes have occurred to the said texts until there was printing and the Gutemberg Bible.
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9 Reply 23, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2376 times:
For the non-believers my I suggest: "The Bible As History" by Werner Keller.
The things that can be proven far out number the things those that cannot!
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16936 posts, RR: 57 Reply 24, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2365 times:
The names of some places are probably true. I mean, it does name the Euphrates river.
That's about it, though. None of the events described in the Bible have stood up to Historical investigation.
25 MadameConcorde: It is more a matter of understanding and interpreting than believing. Believing can be totally blind and done with no understanding or very little of
26 David L: For the record, I suspect a lot of it was based on what some people of the time really believed. However, I have no reason to believe that the contrib
27 474218: I take it you haven't yet and properly have no plans to read the book I suggested? Since there were few audio and video recorders around during those
28 Giancavia: Dont have to dissprove. It has to be proven. I can say i just sat here and spoke to 8 aliens for the last 20 mins. Doesnt make my claim real .. coz i
29 David L: Hmm... it doesn't sound quite as promising now. Sorry. What I'm looking for are reasons to believe they did happen.
30 ShyFlyer: I believe that it, the Bible, is the word of God. Since I believe in God, and that the Bible is His word, then I guess it stands to reason that I beli
31 474218: Since you are looking your half way there, unlike people that refuse to even look, yet say they don't believe. Do I believe everything that is writte
32 NAV20: I see the Bible as an 'anthology,' written by many (at least a hundred) different people. It's a collection of writings, some of which are exact repor
33 David L: But wasn't it written by mere human beings? And why aren't tales of dragons "the Word of the Dragon" or tales of Zeus, Apollo. etc., "the Word of the
34 QXatFAT: I believe the Bible to be 100% true. Wow that is a strong statement. Just like above...strong statement. Do you not believe in a King Herod? Do you no
35 Giancavia: With you I find it baffeling However I can see why certain groups would choose to believe more then others. For example old or sick people whos lives
36 David L: [quote=QXatFAT,reply=34] "100% true", "100% false" - both "very strong statements". In my opinion, the chances of either being right are slim to nil.
37 Powerslide: None. I have bigger things to worry and care about in my life than some fictional fairy tale written, and re-written by human beings. If believing in
38 David L: I can also see how people would want an explanation for Life, the Universe and Everything, why we're here, why there are eclipses, floods, earthquake
39 PSA53: About 65% of it.I won't say most because there is a lot mankind misinterpretations,political perspectives and society attitudes of whatever times invo
40 AustinAllison: To say that EVERYTHING in the bible is false is absolutely crazy, and likewise, to say that everything is true is crazy. I'm not a Christian, but some
41 Springbok747: I don't believe in organized religion..so don't believe in any religious book actually...
42 Fly2HMO: Agreed, however, the few true parts to it are probably greatly dramatized. But its safe to say most geographical locations, rivers and what not are l
43 photopilot: And thus he tries to prove that one version of the word of god is more true than another version of the story of god, hensforth proving the falsehood
44 QXatFAT: Sorry but the examples you give are extreamly bad. The two examples you give are movies that DO NOT claim to be true or the truth. The Bible claims t
45 zrs70: Harsh statement about the "Old" Testament (The Hebrew Bible). Sure there are passages that are difficult. But there are also passages of incredible l
46 ajd1992: I have my own reasons as I'm sure you do - It's how I was brought up. I honestly do not see the truth in anything that's written in the bible but tha
47 photopilot: So let's see, you want me to find a false story that CLAIMS to be true, to allegorically show that the false story that you claim to be true is in fa
48 NAV20: Agreed - although the former do rather tend to outnumber the latter. I'm surprised that few people so far have mentioned the New Testament. The prima
49 Quokka: The New Testament also has its contradictions. Not only do we see different genealogies for Jesus, but differing accounts of it. What is significant
50 iairallie: I belive it to be the word of God so far as it was translated correctly. Some is literal, some allegorical and all of it has been distorted and filter
51 AR385: I do not care if the bible is true or not. I primarily care about living in a world where wether people believe it to be true or not, are allowed to e
52 rlwynn: I am not meaning to insult anybody or disrepsect peoples beliefs but, I think religion is the worst single thing that has happened to mankind.
53 Mudboy: And why is that, because you disagree with it? Because it does not accept you? Because it has rules that you don't want to follow? Because you are to
54 san747: I agree with rlwynn in general and I feel that religion has done more harm than good overall, but I also agree with you- if you're happy, then I have
55 Quokka: I couldn't agree more. Sadly throughout history and even today religion is used to justify acts of violence and we see so many instances of religious
56 HAWK21M: I look at the Bible as a good book of Information,but I need to adapt it in todays world.
57 474218: The Bible is an "historical document". You can not rewrite history, what happened happened, good bad or indifferent, it happened, you can not adapt i
58 QXatFAT: Study some more...then possibly you can come with a good objection to a book full of history. I am sorry to hear that. I think you already know this
59 TransIsland: What are you talking about? The Harry Potter series? The Star Wars saga??
60 RamblinMan: Like most fundamentalists, I believe in all of it, verbatim. Just not the internal contradictions, or the parts I don't like. Seriously, though, it's
61 ajd1992: I know for a fact what he was spouting was a crock of shit, but it doesn't make it any less painful to hear, especially under the guise of Christiani
62 QXatFAT: So are you saying all PM and Presidents that claim to be religious (this is every President of the United States) has done a bad job because they are
63 kiwiinoz: I just noticed this when reading back the thread. Happy Birthday me! Do I get something???
64 iairallie: Yes but you can distill the lessons from history and apply them to similar situations you face in life today. Calling someone stupid because their be
65 texan: I believe in most of the teachings of the New Testament and the historical traditions. As in, I believe many of the historical traditions happened. Bu
66 Quokka: Unless we can speak old Aramaic, ancient Greek and other languages and have access to the original texts how do we know that "it" was translated corr
67 babybus: Well, herbal remedies work but there is no research to back that up. If you take valarian or Chamomile or lavender that puts you to sleep yet there i
68 Quokka: To be honest I haven't bothered to research what studies have been conducted into Valerian or chamomile, but if you were selling those products, or e
69 747srule: I would suggest reading 2 Timothy 3:16. The Bible has been proven by science and archeology.In regards to Old Testament commands,Jesus came to superse
70 san747: It's been proven that the people who wrote it existed, not that the Bible is true, especially because those people who wrote it wrote quite different
71 Powerslide: More or less, religion or religious views has no place in politics.
72 tugger: People do know that the Bible has been edited over it's life time, don't they? Why is The Word of God editable? Tugg
73 Fly2HMO: Because god tells the editors to do so
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