oly720man From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6189 posts, RR: 11 Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 2447 times:
Quoting vc10 (Reply 1): Only for safety reasons you uinderstand
OK, so the distance between emergency exits is 375m and the train has to be about that length so that the train can, presumably, stop directly in line with the emergency exits and passengers can go through the door nearest the emergency exit. And the passengers should be able to go the length of the train, inside the carriages, should the need arise.
The DB train is 200m long and two can be put together to make a 400m long train, but people won't be able to go the whole length of the train in the carriages.
Surely it is safer for the middle of the train to be at an emergency exit so that, at worst, people only have to go half the length of the train.... assuming the central drive units aren't in flames or otherwise dangerous. People are not going to be leaving the train at such a rate that one emergency exit will be swamped, will they?
AF1624 From France, joined Jul 2006, 572 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2425 times:
Security or not, once more we have proved that we FAIL.
We're the only guys who can be the founders of something (Alsthom's TGV high speed trains) and not be the ones who keep a monopoly on it.
It's like if Microsoft had let its competitors come out with a better MS-DOS.
Or Mercedes letting Renault come out with a better sports sedan.
I feel ashamed as a french man for having such low quality businessmen in my country. We used to be good. We had great insurance companies (Axa), great aicraft manufacturers, but now we're left with unproductive T-shirt making industries, that the Chinese can imitate for 5% of the price.
Man, as soon as I get my management degree, I'm off to London.
The article, rather jingoisticallly, refers to the emotional state of a nation, "France reacted angrily"... Your citiing of it is equally so, perpetuating the unfortunate English tradition that all in France is by default 'dirty intrigue' and will be revealed as such in due course.
(A few facts: For perspective, SNCF has NOT dutifully ordered Alstom's new flagship, the AGV. An Ita for example lian start up has. SNCF is not a slave of Alstom and is perfectly willing and able to source elsewhere. Nor does Air France fly an all AirBus fleet, but was Boeings 77W lauch customer and it is the flagship of its fleet.
Thalys on the other hand have repeatedly lobbied to operate Koln - Frankfurt, but have been blocked by DB and DE gov. )
As for safety, shouldn't agreement be reached on changing any standards BEFORE non-compliant equipment should be ordered or agreed? The rule on length seems very reasonable. Again, no one has a monopoly on 'intrigue'.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
pelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2530 posts, RR: 8 Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week ago) and read 2346 times:
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 4): Thalys on the other hand have repeatedly lobbied to operate Koln - Frankfurt, but have been blocked by DB and DE gov. )
While conceivable, I would like to see a source to back that up. SNCF runs lots of intra-Geman passenger routes.
Veolia - also a French rail company - operates even more intra-Geman passenger routes, while DB is not allowed to run intra-French passenger routes. So your alleged blockade is likely due to the French refusal to allow foreign competion on Fench tracks.
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 4): A few facts: For perspective, SNCF has NOT dutifully ordered Alstom's new flagship, the AGV. An Ita for example lian start up has. SNCF is not a slave of Alstom and is perfectly willing and able to source elsewhere.
I'm courious what did SNCF order?
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 4): The article, rather jingoisticallly, refers to the emotional state of a nation, "France reacted angrily"...
Here you're right indeed. It should read: "the french government reacted angrily..."
racko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4838 posts, RR: 21 Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2290 times:
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 4): Thalys on the other hand have repeatedly lobbied to operate Koln - Frankfurt, but have been blocked by DB and DE gov. )
I can't find it with the search function right now, but I'm pretty sure in one of the last threads it was established that Thalys couldn't use their current rolling stock on the Frankfurt - Cologne line because of the steep climbs. For the same reason the older ICEs can't use the line either.
kEvInL1011 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2964 posts, RR: 51 Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2246 times:
Quoting AF1624 (Reply 3): I feel ashamed as a french man for having such low quality businessmen in my country.
What about Aerospatiale? The AS350B is one of the finest helis in the world. Their US subsidiary American Eurocopter is killing Bell in North American sales.
AF1624 From France, joined Jul 2006, 572 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2184 times:
Quoting kEvInL1011 (Reply 8): What about Aerospatiale? The AS350B is one of the finest helis in the world. Their US subsidiary American Eurocopter is killing Bell in North American sales.
I generalized quite a bit.
We do still have strong companies. To name a few, Orange (telecom services provider) which has a presence on five continents, Aerospatiale like you said, also SNECMA, our part of Airbus, EDF (an electricity providing company which has a presence on five continents too), Thalès (electronics and arms), Total (oil), etc...
BUT we lack aggressiveness. The thing with Eurotunnel just shows how we can't exactly defend our positions the way... say... Americans or Germans do.
PanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 7771 posts, RR: 26 Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2159 times:
Quoting cpd (Reply 7): I have to wonder if the TGV's might now be found to be "unsafe" to run on German tracks as well.
we do not play these stupid games in Germany. The TGV operates to FRA STR MUC and places in between and carries local passengers here as well. The fact that Thalys cannot operate on the CGN/FRA HSR line is for the same reason why ICE 1 and 2 generations cannot operate on that route either. The new trainsets bought by Eurostar can operate that route.
The equipment has to be compatible with the requirements on a particular line and modern locomotibves are euipped to operate in most if not all European countries., I recently stayed in a hotel at CPH airport and from my room window I could watch trains entering the tunnel to Sweden , including goods rains pulled by a DB locomotive.
aloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8357 posts, RR: 47 Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 6 days ago) and read 2056 times:
Thank you for the photo, BMIFlyer!
Quoting AF1624 (Reply 3): We're the only guys who can be the founders of something (Alsthom's TGV high speed trains) and not be the ones who keep a monopoly on it.
The Japanese Shinkansen was around a lot earlier than the TGV, so Alstom('s predecessors) didn't really invent it. They did bring it to Europe though, credit where it's due. For a truly failed programme, look no further than the German "Transrapid" maglev.
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 4): Thalys on the other hand have repeatedly lobbied to operate Koln - Frankfurt, but have been blocked by DB and DE gov. )
The reason for that has already been explained. Thalys is also a multi-national operation with DB involvement, so if the German government was "blocking" them from operating the route for no reason, they'd be hurting DB as well. As for SNCF operations abroad - does "Keolis" ring a bell?
Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
pelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2530 posts, RR: 8 Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 6 days ago) and read 2046 times:
Quoting AF1624 (Reply 9):
BUT we lack aggressiveness. The thing with Eurotunnel just shows how we can't exactly defend our positions the way... say... Americans or Germans do.
What do you mean by that? How do you think Americans and Germans defend their positions?
Klaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 20853 posts, RR: 55 Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1995 times:
Quoting oly720man (Reply 2): Surely it is safer for the middle of the train to be at an emergency exit so that, at worst, people only have to go half the length of the train.... assuming the central drive units aren't in flames or otherwise dangerous.
The ICE 3 trains don't have traditional drive units but instead distributed motors in each bogie along the entire train.
TWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 53 Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1986 times:
Quoting aerdingus (Reply 14): I'm sure there's a myriad of reasons, probably one being that Ireland could never afford it, & the HSS would whup it's ass with costs.
But what about between Northern Ireland and Great Britain?
cpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 44 Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1948 times:
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10): we do not play these stupid games in Germany.
That's exactly my point.
Quoting oly720man (Thread starter): and modern locomotibves are euipped to operate in most if not all European countries.,
Exactly right. And since ICE3 has been operating for quite a long time, I can't see why there should be any great issue operating it through the tunnel.
Quoting oly720man (Reply 2): OK, so the distance between emergency exits is 375m and the train has to be about that length so that the train can, presumably, stop directly in line with the emergency exits and passengers can go through the door nearest the emergency exit.
But what happens if the train is unable to stop in line with those exits? I don't see the difference between a Eurostar, TGV or ICE3 in that respect. In all cases, the passengers must need to walk at least some distance alongside a stopped train, or am I misunderstanding this and there is some magical device that beams people from the doors to the emergency exit that only exists on the French trains?
oly720man From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6189 posts, RR: 11 Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1907 times:
Quoting cpd (Reply 18): But what happens if the train is unable to stop in line with those exits?
I can only see 2 situations where that may happen: a derailment or a complete electricity failure, either through the catenary or in the train itself. Otherwise there should be enough wriggle room to slow a train so it is in line with the exits when it stops.
Not forgetting the large expanse of wet stuff. The shortest route would be Larne to Stranraer, about the same distance as the Channel Tunnel and that wasn't cheap and a lot more people use that than would cross the Irish Sea. There's also a considerable distance, on the UK side at least, to connect to a high speed line.
vc10 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 1382 posts, RR: 17 Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 1880 times:
Now I am no expert on trains, but I think I have read somewhere that the eurostar trains were specially designed for the tunnel. It would seem the biggest worries they had with operating through the tunnel was a fire on the train, so the train was designed so all passengers could be transferred the full length of the trains and either get off at a suitable exit which lines up with an entrance to the escape tunnel, or if one end of the train was on fire all the passengers could be transferred to the other end , the offending half decoupled and the good end with all the passenger driven out of the tunnel.
Apparently the concerns are that the ICE train is two train sets coupled together and that Passengers could not transfer within the train from one half to the other.
Now I could be wrong and if so I am sure that some one will point out my mistake
Just struck me, how impressive is that station compared with what we have here in Australia! I'm sure the sparkling bullet nosed ICE3 helps the effect as well. Nice photos.
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From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6189 posts, 
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What do you mean by that? How do you think Americans and Germans defend their positions?
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How refined.
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