gem of a quote: "In the end the soldier on the ground responsible for guiding air support told the Dutch: "If you're not going to engage then you might as well f . . k off." And they did, Maylor writes."
KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11708 posts, RR: 52 Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3857 times:
If true this is not how allies are suppose to act in helping each other. If the Dutch could not engage the enemy, because they are not allowed to by their government, they should have at least called on some air support that would help the Aus and US troops.
Lumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 21 Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3841 times:
ISAF="I saw Americans/Australians/Afghans fight"?
I seriously hope this report is not correct.
[Edited 2010-10-22 10:23:05]
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
Quoting RTFM (Reply 3): I think a few Brits & Canadians might take issue with that statement.......
153 KIA and counting for our guys (and women), plus an unspecified number of wounded because CF will simply not release the numbers. So, yes, I would take exception to that as well.
But to the point by OP, hopefully this is a one-off type of ocurrence. If not, then it really calls into question the nature of this alliance. I realise the French and German governments have put caveats in place that forbid offensive action on the part of their 'boots on the ground', but my understanding is that the Dutch have been pretty active in the Helmand/Kandahar areas in the past.
Lumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 21 Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3569 times:
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 5): . So, yes, I would take exception to that as well.
I just read the article again and fail to find where there is mention of Canadians (or Brits) in the firefight.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
johns624 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 766 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 4 days ago) and read 3490 times:
I'm questioning whether the low number of Apaches that the Netherlands has (30?) contributed to the situation. Maybe the commanders have instilled in their people that they aren't to lose an aircraft that they can't afford to replace, especially in a conflict that isn't a vital interest to the Netherlands. Sorta like how the Germans in WW2 were afraid to use the Tirpitz because they didn't want to lose her.
Spacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2738 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3433 times:
Quoting johns624 (Reply 7): I'm questioning whether the low number of Apaches that the Netherlands has (30?) contributed to the situation. Maybe the commanders have instilled in their people that they aren't to lose an aircraft that they can't afford to replace,
If that's the case, perhaps it's a good thing they pulled out of Afghanistan recently. Don't need another Srebrenicza.
KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11708 posts, RR: 52 Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3203 times:
Quoting johns624 (Reply 7): Sorta like how the Germans in WW2 were afraid to use the Tirpitz because they didn't want to lose her.
Actually, the Germans did useTirpitz several times during WWII, but she was also valuable in tieing up a lot of RN and RAF assets during the war.
hka098 From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 556 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3196 times:
I am not an Apache pilot but, does this mean that the aircraft is capable of nothing at 5000m? I find that difficult to believe, but do not know for sure. What is the point of deploying such a weapon system if it is so cost-prohibitive in a manner that prevents it's use? The Hellfire, alone, costs over $500,000 per shot.
EagleBoy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1619 posts, RR: 2 Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3066 times:
Please note this was in Sep 2008. I would hope that the Dutch RoE have been changed since then.
The UK use their Apache from high up, anyone know what their 'normal' operating altitude is? Have read 2 books recently that described UK apaches in Afghanistan but didn't give any figures. One did mention being able to hit with the 30mm cannon from over 2KM away.
UH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2961 times:
No real big surprise here. Some of the coalition partners are of little meaningful help to the effort.
Don't get me wrong, I am not criticizing the soldiers, rather the military/national leadership. The fact of the matter is that a few nations - which I will not name openly - seem completely uninterested in fighting. Which is so out of wack, considering they are a military force trained and armed to fight!
Seriously, sometimes I land at these foreign FOBs and it's like stepping into another world. There is practically no sign that they are at war. It's like entering into a crazy desolate resort. Don't get me wrong, going to Kandahar or Bagram is the same way with US forces, but even still, there are still signs that actual combat operations are ongoing. Not so with some of our NATO brethren.
Honestly, I think a number of European nations need to seriously reconsider the value of having a military, in the first place. There is never going to be a ground war, with thousands of tanks flooding into the Fulda Gap. They are never going to seriously deploy to a massive theater of operation, like Korea or something. So that leaves small, but intense, counterinsurgency conflicts like Afghanistan.... but if they're not even going to truly fight in those... lets be honest, they're worthless.
My opinion: Europe should either withdraw from any active future military engagement - disband their armies, and only keep small air and naval forces to protect their sovereign boarders from the stray Tu-95 or Sovremenny destroyer. Or, combine into a single unified force, with a narrow focus on protecting the continent, and the SLOC with the US.
But as it stands right now, it just seems like they're desperately trying to deny the obvious: they're becoming increasingly irrelevant.
pelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2530 posts, RR: 8 Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2578 times:
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 14): But as it stands right now, it just seems like they're desperately trying to deny the obvious: they're becoming increasingly irrelevant.
It's not that bad. It's an painfully slow process here in Germany (which is surely one of the nations you are writing about). While Germany still has still a long way ahead turning it's armed forces from a bureaucratic, heavily armored, home defending army only to a highly mobilized intervention force, there was already a lot of progress during the last two decades. Now even the conscription will be suspended. The process will probably need at least another decade, but there is progress.
But what did you expect? After two lost world wars the Allies taught the Germans to become pacifistic because the German military brought so much evil to the world. And the Germans learned this lecture by heart.
GDB From United Kingdom, joined exactly 12 years ago today! , 12713 posts, RR: 80 Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2398 times:
Quoting johns624 (Reply 16): Geez, at least 30 years to do anything...
After 60 years of operating under a defensive military culture, under limits on extra NATO (as in outside Europe) actions that emerged from when the post war Federal Republic formed with these restrictions as imposed by WW2's victors, including the USA.
While the ravages of WW2 are within living memory, this is not likely to change, only a direct threat to the nation state will change that.
There was just that in the Cold War, which is why continental European NATO members maintained large conscripted forces then.
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13338 posts, RR: 64 Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2364 times:
Up to 1945 the attitude in Germany was that a war for every generation helps to form the character. This included having a professional military class, which considered itself to be the elite of the country and acted very independently from the civilian population.
After WW2 the attitude was "all military (at least if it German) is bad". In 1956 it changed (in Western Germany) to military is bad, but the Commies are worse.
Once the Commies were gone it went back to "why do we need a military? All our neighbours are our frirnds and we should only have a military for direct homeland defence".
It is hard to get over this mentality.
keesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2265 times:
For those that still might be more interested in the truth then taking the opportunity to ventilte their opinions; according to an official reaction from the the dutch and australian DOD's the report of this guy (that got wounded) is incorrect. During the fight the dutch Apache was on a mission clearing the way for a 3 medivacs, later on a dutch Apache was send in but the shooting was over (there were also US and British heli and aircraft giving air support).
Yes it is. I was not speaking directly about Germans. I actually had a few others in mind, but sure I would ultimately group Germany into that group.
...You're wasting this insane amount of money, for a bunch of guys to go to across the global into a combat theater of operations, ....and for them to run away from any actual combat! It's a waste of your money, their and our time.
Quoting pelican (Reply 15): While Germany still has still a long way ahead turning it's armed forces from a bureaucratic, heavily armored, home defending army only to a highly mobilized intervention force,
...That's what I'm saying. You're wasting your time and money. Why are you even bothering to field this supposed "highly mobilized intervention force"? First what the hell does that even truly mean? Intervene into what? The school yard bully fight? Because honestly, that seems like the highest level of intensity that the leadership is willing to risk. Second, what good is a highly mobile force that chains itself to the FOB and refuses to go out into the thick of it? That is NOT how you fight wars.
But look, I think we're getting wrapped around the axle by focusing just on Germany. I've worked with German soldiers, and they're outstanding. But it's a national leadership problem - of multiple European nations - that causes those forces to be under, or inappropriately, utilized. It simply seems like a number of NATO nations do not have the stomach to really fight. Go to these FOBs, and see how absolutely removed they are from the war that is raging just outside the walls. It's surreal.
I'm just saying. Europe would probably be better served to just admit that they are fairly irrelevant. A lot of money could be saved by getting over the denial.
keesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1975 times:
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 20): I'm just saying. Europe would probably be better served to just admit that they are fairly irrelevant. A lot of money could be saved by getting over the denial.
You can find some interesting literature about American Identity, Gun Ownership, Military Spending, Changing Balance of Power, the role of the Media, etc. The way US citizens see themselves and the world and how the Asians and Europeans see them are changing. Everyone knows, some see with fear.
The bigger the gun the bigger the boy just doesn't cut it the way it did. On a global scale the relations and cultural exchanges between Asia and EC (and everything in between) keeps growing. Military muscles are becoming less important for natios to build, confirm their identities. Look at cost cutting in Europe, obviously other things are deemed more important.
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 20): I'm just saying. Europe would probably be better served to just admit that they are fairly irrelevant. A lot of money could be saved by getting over the denial.
Hi UH60FR, no disrespect for the work you did, but I think it's a bit disrespectfull to all the european soldiers that are fighting and got killed over the last decade. Many Brits, Dutch, French, Germans (45 killed, 200 wounded) left on a mission to fight terrorism after 9-11 and died. The thousands of civilians that get killed at road blocks, precision bombings, for fun, the widespread tortures tanking place, the limitted progress that is made for the local population, the dishonest reporting and arrogant reactions on this, all lead to decreasing public support for these missions.
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 14): It's like entering into a crazy desolate resort. Don't get me wrong, going to Kandahar or Bagram is the same way with US forces, but even still, there are still signs that actual combat operations are ongoing. Not so with some of our NATO brethren.
It's not always visible what's going on. Check ut wikileaks.
The arrogant and one sided responses we saw from the other side of the Atlantic during the last decade lead to people increasingly ignoring calls for assistance and setting their own priorities.
connies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 3857 posts, RR: 13 Reply 22, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1971 times:
Quoting Lumberton (Reply 6):
I just read the article again and fail to find where there is mention of Canadians (or Brits) in the firefight.
More as a comment on what seems to be an attitude or belief that NATO countries other than the US are not actually invested in combat ops. Several are, sadly it seems some have opted out with their 'caveats'.
johns624 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 766 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1879 times:
Quoting keesje (Reply 21): . On a global scale the relations and cultural exchanges between Asia and EC (and everything in between) keeps growing
What this has to do with combating non-governmental terrorist organizations, I'll never know.
Quoting keesje (Reply 21): I think it's a bit disrespectfull to all the european soldiers that are fighting and got killed over the last decade. Many Brits
Lumping those other countries in with the Brits (and Canadians and Australians) is a bit disingenuous. I don't think that any American that is informed has anything against those three countries. The French have been doing "peacemaking" in Africa, although their A-stan presence has been small.
KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11708 posts, RR: 52 Reply 24, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1875 times:
Quoting keesje (Reply 21): but I think it's a bit disrespectfull to all the european soldiers that are fighting and got killed over the last decade. Many Brits, Dutch, French, Germans (45 killed, 200 wounded) left on a mission to fight terrorism after 9-11 and died.
There is no disrespect for our EU Allies who do fight, and die in this war. Many European troops are not there because of the 9-11 attacks in DC and NY, and the failed one in PA. Have you forgotten the terrorists attacks in Spain and England? What about the Muslim termoil in France, Spain, Italy, and Germany? How about the Muslim Doctors in the UK who tried to blow up and airport terminal 2 years ago?
The war against terrorism is truely a global was, just ask the Aussies.
Giving into terrorists demands do not work. Spain pulled out of the GWOT after the Madrid train bombings, and theyare still subject to terrorist unrest, and possible future bombings and killings.
Quoting keesje (Reply 21): The thousands of civilians that get killed at road blocks, precision bombings, for fun, the widespread tortures tanking place, the limitted progress that is made for the local population, the dishonest reporting and arrogant reactions on this, all lead to decreasing public support for these missions.
I'm calling you on this one. Exactly which US/Allied precision bombing attacks against the terrorists were made "for fun"? Torture? You have got to be kidding. Tell me how a few US Troops in Iraq who made prisoners wear women's panties on their heads equil the terrorists beheading Daniel Pearl and others they captured, or shot in the back of their head with their hands tied behind their backs? How is that the same "torture"?
25 UH60FtRucker: Christ. I knew that eventually someone was going to get all bent out of shape, and throw this ridiculous comment out there. Thanks Keesje for proving
26 keesje: That's what's different with 10-20 yrs ago. Everybody on the street has a mobile & knows youtube. Denying what is obvious or saying it's an isola
27 GDB: There is maybe another factor at work, after NATO member the USA was attacked on 11th Sept 2001, despite it not being a state on state attack (though
28 TheCol: Let's not kid ourselves. Mainland Europe doesn't have, and never has had, the first clue about collective security. Are you saying they should cry wh
29 WarRI1: I have seen enough real videos, movies and pictures from over the last 90 years and especially from 2001 to make these videos seem tame. I can assure
30 Mortyman: It happens on a regulare basis unfortunetly: When Norwegian soldiers have been in a firefight and called in for American airsupport, it has happend th
31 keesje: I think what most people know but choose to ignore is that many if not most of the people are not guilty enough to get killed or even totally innocen
32 pelican: That only proofs your lack of understanding for the German backround. Well, it probably is. But only now. Because this war will change the nation. No
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