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Is Mexico That Bad?  
User currently offlinecaliatenza From United States of America, joined exactly 8 years ago today! , 1583 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3382 times:

Been watching "Border Wars" lately and somehow i get the feeling from this show that most of Mexico is just waiting to run across the US border. I mean, is Mexico that poor? That thousands of people have to cross the border every year? I just saw a earlier thread on here that rated Mexico the #1 country in the world for ease of doing business. Ive been to Tijuana..honestly it didnt look THAT POOR or THAT bad to me..certainly tons better than a lot of places in India (which is growing at a rate of 8%+ annually), for example. I know that being a neighbor of the world's largest country is the biggest temptation for people to leave and start a new life, but is it so bad that they cant get a good job in Mexico?

58 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8770 posts, RR: 42
Reply 1, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3367 times:

They're not all from Mexico and the Mexicans aren't all from Tijuana.  


Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4359 posts, RR: 35
Reply 2, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3365 times:

- It are not all Mexicans but also people from much much poorer countries like Honduras, El Salvador and Nicaragua who travelled illegally to the Mexican US border, they won't be able to get a proper job in Mexico.
- The USA life can still be much more attractive, I have a latino friend who has a well paid job and bought an appartment while he doesn't have the proper paperwork in the USA, something which would be unheard of in Europe. In contrast, a Mexican friend of mine can be seen as upper middle class, he graduated, has a management HRM office function but still only earns only some 350 USD a month, too little for him to buy international trips or rent a place for his own.
- Plus of course friends and brothers who 'made it' to the USA of course brag a bit and show off their fancy cars and clothes on pictures while they would be too proud to admit their jobs and earnings aren't as good as they say.



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlinecaliatenza From United States of America, joined exactly 8 years ago today! , 1583 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3350 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 1):
They're not all from Mexico and the Mexicans aren't all from Tijuana.

lol that part i know, i was just recollecting my most recent Mexico trip...and that was Tijuana, twice during college.

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 2):
It are not all Mexicans but also people from much much poorer countries like Honduras, El Salvador and Nicaragua who travelled illegally to the Mexican US border, they won't be able to get a proper job in Mexico.

If they are from Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua..then i can definetly understand why they are trying to get to the US.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26169 posts, RR: 50
Reply 4, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3311 times:

Considering folks can earn in one-day what they can earn in Mexico in one-week there is a strong incentive to come to the US, not just for poorly educated, but also all types of well educated professionals who seek to come to the US.
Over the years I've run across doctors, accountants, and other skilled professionals whom left their careers in Mexico to pursue something similar in the US.

As far as the break down of Mexican versus non Mexicans, per DHS stats in 2008 Mexican citizens accounted for 87.6% percent of all border apprehensions, with citizens of Honduras and Guatemala being the next largest group with about 3% each.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3300 times:

Quoting caliatenza (Thread starter):
I mean, is Mexico that poor?

No. Not at all. In many ways my quality of life is better than in the US, hard to explain, but I'm not wealthy by any means for Mexican standards. I wouldn't have been living here as an expat for over 20 years if it was really as wretched as the idiotic sensationalist media likes to put it. And neither would the world's richest man, who just so happens to live in the "oh so dangerous" Mexico City  Yeah sure
Quoting caliatenza (Reply 3):
lol that part i know, i was just recollecting my most recent Mexico trip...and that was Tijuana, twice during college.

Crossing the border and taking a walk to get drunk in Tijuana doesn't count as visiting Mexico, IMO.

Go anywhere near or south and east of Mexico city if you want the real Mexico experience.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):

As far as the break down of Mexican versus non Mexicans, per DHS stats in 2008 Mexican citizens accounted for 87.6% percent of all border apprehensions, with citizens of Honduras and Guatemala being the next largest group with about 3% each.

I'm willing to bet the actual number is less than 50%. It's very easy to get Mexican citizenship, and just think about it, an immigrant form Honduras is much better of being just booted back across the fence to Mexico than all the way back to Honduras. So a vast majority of immigrants get naturalized or have fake Mexican IDs.And yes, I know this from acquaintances working in Mexican immigration.


Let's see how long it takes for the usual Mexico bashers that have never been more than a thousand miles close to the border living under a rock take to show up  

[Edited 2010-10-29 15:21:56]

User currently offlinetype-rated From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3287 times:

One of the problems I have found is that most Americans tend to think that the border towns represent what the rest of Mexico is like. This isn't true. If you travel to say, Mexico City it's a very nice city kept relatively clean with a lot of middle class people.
But as bullets from Mexico come flying across the border, Americans are becoming more concerned about the drug cartels.


User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3285 times:

Quoting type-rated (Reply 6):
One of the problems I have found is that most Americans tend to think that the border towns represent what the rest of Mexico is like.

All the Mexican border towns suck and tend to be pretty nasty. There's no denying that. But you are correct, they don't reflect the rest of the country not one bit.


User currently offlineAM744 From Mexico, joined Jun 2001, 1787 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3277 times:

It just makes economic sense for those legitimately disadvantaged (non Spanish speaking indigenous population ~7% of the population) and those who could make a living in Mexico but choose not to.

There are much less opportunities in Mexico, that's for sure, and making a living is harder because of the distorted economic and legal environment. But that doesn't mean there are no opportunities. Some people decide not to take them or are misdirected by their own families, then the US becomes a viable alternative.

Those who try, do make it, most often than not.


User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3266 times:

Quoting AM744 (Reply 8):
Those who try, do make it, most often than not.

  

It doesn't help that the US is so over hyped. So many immigrants think moving to the US is the easy way out when in fact it's quite the opposite. You just don't hear about immigrant success stories at all anymore.


User currently offlineIMissPiedmont From United States of America, joined May 2001, 6344 posts, RR: 33
Reply 10, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3247 times:

The problem is not the general population, it's the drug runners and who do you suppose is responsible for that problem ? Yep, the US drug users and the "war on drugs".


Damn, this website is getting worse daily.
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13202 posts, RR: 16
Reply 11, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3191 times:

Right now, mainly in the northern and border cities of Mexico, there is a Civil War between the drug gangs/organized criminals and government police and other authorites, the media and anyone who challanges their business or those that get caught in the crossfire. The murder rates in some regions of Mexico is much worse that the worst urban areas of the USA, the murder rate of police and goverment officials is a Pandemic, even worse that for the USA and locals in Afganistan.

That 70% of the Mexican people live in poverty or near poverty, the poor pay of law enforcement, the greater difficulty to find a decent job unless you know or are connected to someone, with other factors means many are turning to the drug trade to survive. As in the USA, many basic manufacturing jobs that NAFTA was supposed to create have also gone to China too, adding to the jobless rates in Mexico.

I fear that tourism will take a major dive due the drug fuled terror in Mexico, making a bad economic situation much worse.


User currently offlinecaliatenza From United States of America, joined exactly 8 years ago today! , 1583 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3171 times:

Quoting AM744 (Reply 8):


There are much less opportunities in Mexico, that's for sure, and making a living is harder because of the distorted economic and legal environment. But that doesn't mean there are no opportunities. Some people decide not to take them or are misdirected by their own families, then the US becomes a viable alternative.

The media really likes to portray Mexico as a third world country, but im sure its really not. What is the distorted economic and legal environment down there?


User currently offlinePWM2TXLHopper From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1360 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3156 times:

Quoting caliatenza (Thread starter):
Been watching "Border Wars" lately and somehow i get the feeling from this show that most of Mexico is just waiting to run across the US border. I mean, is Mexico that poor?

The country itself has tremendous natural resources, primarily oil, but a lot of it's citizens are extremely poor. There aren't a lot of good paying jobs. There's not a lot of middle class in Mexico. It's mostly the wealthy, and the poor. If you're wealthy, you're all set. Can live in a nice gated community, and enjoy the luxurie and get a visa to travel freely. If you're poor, you suffer.

The government is corrupt, at least on the local level, and the drug cartels are more powerful than the government. In recent years, the northern border areas have essentially been taken over by the cartels, and there's a war going on. kidnappings are frequent. It's gotten worse since the federal government has tried to clamp down and fight the cartels, but often they are literally out gunned. Plus, the cartels have so much money, it's easier for them to just buy off the local authorities, and even the federal ones, as well as the military. If you were a Mexican police officer, or even a solider, making next to nothing, and unable to support your family, it's awfully tempting when the cartels offer to pay you many times more to work for them, or help them move their product without detection. And even if you don't get bought out, if you don't cooperate the cartels can just kill you if you don't go along, or impede their moving of product.

Read the news about ongoing in Mexico, and it seems like just about every time some town gets a new police chief that promises to crack down on the cartels, it's just a few months, or even just weeks before they're kidnapped, executed, and sometimes have their heads left on the front steps of the police station, or the body hanging by a rope from a highway overpass. Northern Mexico in particular has become a pretty bad, violent place recently. Tijuana is considered one of the most violent cities in the world per capital. Just a few months ago in Juarez, there was a gun battle in broad day light and the bullets started raining down and hitting building in nearby El Paso, Texas. Just a stone throw across the bridge People are afraid there. The cartels are more powerful than the government.

Yet, there's worse countries further south. The Mexicans have machine guns up on their southern boarder with Guatemala to keep out illegal immigrants looking for a better life in Mexico, or further north in the USA! Yet, they condemn us for trying to keep their illegals out of our own country, and even go as far an printing pamphlets to assist their people in getting into the USA illegally, so they can make money and send it home.

You must have not gone off the beaten path if you think Tijuana wasn't very bad looking!?! I have a few friends from southern Mexican states, and even they tell me how depressing the northern border towns are. They say that's not the real Mexico.

Ever read to stores about Americans getting pulled over for bogus driving infractions down there, getting arrested, going to the police station and then being told it can all "go away" for a couple hundred dollars. It's corrupt!


I've also noticed no matter how dangerous a place is, people from that place will often say it's not bad. Same goes for people in Mexico City or further South in Guatemala City. I've met three people at a hostel in Germany once, they were all born and raised in Johannesburg, South Africa. All of them had either been robbed multiple times at gun point, been carjacked, had friends or family murdered, and told me things like it wasn't safe to stop at red lights at night while driving. Yet, they all told me the perception of their city was overblown and it wasn't so bad. I even met an oil worker in Houston once, who was born and raised in notorious Lagos, Nigeria. Which is known to be a third world hell hole, and very dangerous city. But according to him, "it's not really that dangerous" Even Americans that grow up in dangerous areas of major cities always say the same thing. "Yeah, I live in Compton, I hear gunshots all the time at night, but yeah, it's not so bad!"

When I went to visit a friend in Mexico CIty, who claims it's perfectly safe, she was adamant that I be very careful about using ATM's at night. Plus, she lived in a gated community with a guard armed with a machine gun. I'm thinking, if it's so safe, why do I have to be so cautious and what's up with the guard with the machine gun?



[Edited 2010-10-29 20:32:35]

User currently offlinecaliatenza From United States of America, joined exactly 8 years ago today! , 1583 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3123 times:

Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 13):

You must have not gone off the beaten path if you think Tijuana wasn't very bad looking!?! I have a few friends from southern Mexican states, and even they tell me how depressing the northern border towns are. They say that's not the real Mexico.

Revolucion Ave didnt look too bad to me, but i dunno. I met a doc back home that went to school in TJ and he said there are some pretty wealthy parts in it, so its not all bad.


User currently offlinesr117 From Mexico, joined Jun 2000, 799 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3115 times:

Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 13):
Tijuana is considered one of the most violent cities in the world per capital

The murder rate per capita in Tijuana in 2008 (which was the worst year for drug violence) was 56 per 100,000 inhabitants which is below that of New Orleans. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28443507/)

Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 13):
I'm thinking, if it's so safe, why do I have to be so cautious and what's up with the guard with the machine gun?

It's silly to say it's safe, you DO have to be careful, and there are some things you just don't do, like go to an ATM in a dark place at night. I've done it but not alone and looking over my shoulder all the time. Things probably won't happen but I'm not gonna take any chances. Some guards have machine guns cause sticks aren't too intimidating to the crooks down here.

Quoting caliatenza (Thread starter):
Ive been to Tijuana..honestly it didnt look THAT POOR or THAT bad to me..certainly tons better than a lot of places in India

Honestly, you are correct, while the rest of Mexico LOVES to throw us under the bus and say that "It's not the real Mexico", truth is, we're as real as Guadalajara, and people from all over the country still flock here cause while it may not be pretty, they'll probably have a job if they want to. The government simply cannot keep up with infrastructure to deal with immigration, deportees from the US, etc etc. Considering the circumstances, I definitely think we're not that bad off. Some people actually find Tijuana amusing:

This guy is a hoot, he finds charm in corners of the city I never thought possible.. http://derrikchinn.blogspot.com/

The city has also recently has garnered some positive attention for change:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...some-bounce-amid-mexicos-drug-war/

The current police chief has a precarious albiet controversial hold on things, but it has been working for a few months:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/10/18/101018fa_fact_finnegan

Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 13):
You must have not gone off the beaten path if you think Tijuana wasn't very bad looking!?! I have a few friends from southern Mexican states, and even they tell me how depressing the northern border towns are. They say that's not the real Mexico.

As I mentioned before, the rest of Mexico loves trashing us but, fact is, Baja California, along with Nuevo Leon have the -lowest- levels of extreme poverty in the country. About 20 million people countrywide live in extreme poverty, and a further 30 million live in different classifications of poverty. Some states such as Oaxaca, Guerrero, Chiapas and Tabasco (which are part of the "real" Mexico as some say) have poverty rates from 60 to above 70%, while the hellish northern states of Baja California and Nuevo Leon have extreme poverty rates of 9% and 27% (as of 2007), Baja has the lowest extreme poverty rates in the entire country.

Now, that's not to say that it's heaven up here, far far from it, but just to point out that despite it not being as pretty as some towns down south, people come here because they at least can have a job, I grew up here and I can honestly say that it's not THAT bad and, what matters to me is that I have a happy life here. Should I be unhappy to conform to people's stereotypes about people in Mexico? And btw.. I'm not rich, I'm part of the apparently non-existent middle class in Mexico who makes a living off a small business.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 11):
That 70% of the Mexican people live in poverty or near poverty

It's actually around 50%, that 20% makes a big difference !

As of 2006, the percentage of population considered "affluent" was 21%, and the ranks of the middle class (middle class defined by incomes of around 500-1800usd) was 24% which was actually a decrease from 2000 according to LatinPanel research.

Quoting caliatenza (Thread starter):
I just saw a earlier thread on here that rated Mexico the #1 country in the world for ease of doing business.

Well I am not sure where they got that from, I have my doubts ; ) And that is precisely part of the reason we have people emigrating, there just aren't enough jobs being created.

Unfortunately Mexico is currently going through the growing pains of democracy at a very very bad time. As some of you may be aware, Mexico was under a de-facto dictatorship for about 70 years until 2000, most of Mexico's institutions were built to work in a centralized pyramid structure with the president at the helm. However, with democracy came the inevitable problems stemming from political bickering and legislative paralysis, all this bickering while political, judicial and economic reforms are imperative, the country keeps slipping and reforms come much too slowly.

The stagnant economy and reduced opportunities for disadvantaged parts of the population have proved a suitable recruiting ground for the growing drug cartels, and the ineffective judicial system hasn't helped.

Now I have no doubt that things will turn around eventually, the question is how bad will things get before we reach rock bottom.

Ricardo


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15835 posts, RR: 27
Reply 16, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3107 times:

Quoting caliatenza (Reply 3):
i was just recollecting my most recent Mexico trip...and that was Tijuana, twice during college.

If you remember a trip to Mexico when you were in college, I think you did it wrong.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 6):
Mexico City it's a very nice city kept relatively clean with a lot of middle class people.

But don't pretty much all people there with money have armed bodyguards, nondescript armored vehicles, etc.?

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 11):
I fear that tourism will take a major dive due the drug fuled terror in Mexico, making a bad economic situation much worse.

Swine flu already got that rolling unfortunately.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinesr117 From Mexico, joined Jun 2000, 799 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3102 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 16):
But don't pretty much all people there with money have armed bodyguards, nondescript armored vehicles, etc.?

Extremely rich people do because they can be targeted for kidnappings, and well, they can afford it. But stroll down Presidente Masaryk Ave in Polanco or any other upper/middle class neighborhood and you will quickly realize that ostentations are alive and well in Mexico.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 16):
Swine flu already got that rolling unfortunately.

As of this point(Jan-Sept), numbers are up 22% from 2009, and according to estimates we should close the year with the same number of tourists we had in 2008. However I am sure that numbers would be a lot better if it weren't for the nasty things that are happening.


User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3084 times:

EDIT: OK so due to some glitch apparently im quoting myself quoting myself, tried to fix it but the code is messed up, but I guess you can all figure out what's my typing and what's not.

Oh look, somebody obviously drank the Fox news Kool-Aid  
Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 13):
and the drug cartels are more powerful than the government.

Hogwash. This was barely the case even in Colombia.

Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 13):
and there's a war going on.

Oh please!!! This is the statement that really bothers me that I keep hearing so often. Random gunfights between cartels or the government in isolated locations is NOT a war for crying out loud.

Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 13):
Tijuana is considered one of the most violent cities in the world per capital.

Hogwash, again. Maybe a few years ago but things have gone quiet there. Laredo is where the real mess is now.

Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 13):
The cartels are more powerful than the government.

        

If you actually could see the local news you'd see that at the very least once a month a major drug lord is taken into custody, or killed by the Mexican marines. But no, I guess success stories don't sell well, and too bad the the head guys get replaced faster than they can be eliminated.

Quoting PWM2TXLHopper,reply=13n go as far an printing pamphlets to assist their people in getting into the USA illegally, so they can make money and send it home.[/quote]

Yet more BS. Those pamphlets DO NOT encourage illegal immigration. They discourage it, and clearly say how to immigrate legally. However what it does say as how to stay alive if you're stupid enough to go through illegally, I see no harm with preserving life. May want to learn the language and read them yourself.

Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 13):
They say that's not the real Mexico.

Wow, you managed to fit some truth in all this.

Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 13):

Ever read to stores about Americans getting pulled over for bogus driving infractions down there, getting arrested, going to the police station and then being told it can all "go away" for a couple hundred dollars. It's corrupt!

And all the stories I've heard of personally from fellow expats are form the idiots who say "Hey, let's drive to Mexico!" Out of the blue and do NO research whatsoever on how things are done here, don't bother ONE bit to even speak a tiny bit of Spanish, and that come here with the typical ugly American pompous attitude of being welcome with a red carpet and free tequila. Frankly, they're asking for it.

I've never been harassed by the cops despite being a gringo. And the few times they tried to get slick on me I talked my way out of it. Simple as that.

Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 13):

When I went to visit a friend in Mexico CIty, who claims it's perfectly safe, she was adamant that I be very careful about using ATM's at night.

Please do tell one city in the world where this wouldn't apply.  
Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 13):
Plus, she lived in a gated community with a guard armed with a machine gun. I'm thinking, if it's so safe, why do I have to be so cautious and what's up with the guard with the machine gun?

Somehow I'm not buying this. Yes, gated communities are more frequent here than in the states, but the most I've seen in any is a handgun, and 80% of the time it's just a baton and handcuffs they carry. The Mexican government is not too keen on rent-a-cops carrying around assault weapons and IF it was in fact what you saw, then most likely it was a federal policeman and some bureaucrat or politician lived in that same community.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 16):
But don't pretty much all people there with money have armed bodyguards, nondescript armored vehicles, etc.?

Not necessarily. I work for the richest families in northwestern Mexico and not one of the members is walking around with body guards or in armored vehicles. In fact, of the very wealthy families I'm acquainted with here here (there's plenty) I know only one guy (much less wealthy than the people I work for in fact) that actually has bodyguards on him, but it's on an as-needed basis and he has no armored vehicles. None of them, personal security detail or not, have ever been harmed. It all depends on how paranoid you are.

At any rate, to sum things up, I'll put it this way: I heard much, MUCH more random gunfire doing my 5 years in college in Northern AZ, than in my whole 20 years living as an expat in Mexico. Heck, last time I did hear gunfire down here was at some ranch where we were hunting deer.    Yes, of course, there are some very troubled areas in the country, but for freaks sake, regardless if the Mexican president declared "war" on drugs, this is NOT a war torn country!!!   

[/rant]


[quote=sr117 (Reply 17):
Extremely rich people do because they can be targeted for kidnappings, and well, they can afford it. But stroll down Presidente Masaryk Ave in Polanco or any other upper/middle class neighborhood and you will quickly realize that ostentations are alive and well in Mexico.

Yeah really. I was around Polansky a few weeks ago on a trip and I saw more Ferraris, Rolls Royces, and Porsches there than even in Beverly Hills.

[Edited 2010-10-29 23:00:25]

User currently offlinecaptaink From Mexico, joined May 2001, 5109 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3056 times:

Quoting caliatenza (Thread starter):
Been watching "Border Wars"

Pay attention to the name of the program. There are countries in the world in far worse conditions. And if you think all Mexicans are dying to go to the US, you would be in for the shock of your life upon learning the truth.



There is something special about planes....
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6614 posts, RR: 35
Reply 20, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3037 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting caliatenza (Thread starter):
Been watching "Border Wars" lately and somehow i get the feeling from this show that most of Mexico is just waiting to run across the US border.

I have seen that show and it is very partial and pretty much a 45 min. long piece of sensationalism and journalistic crap. It is the same as saying that by watching the show "Cops" my impression of American society would be accurate. If it came to that, I would think that the USA is a society defined by meth and crack addicts, prostitutes and their johns, domestic fights between obese people and homeless midgets in Las Vegas.

Just as the USA is more, a whole lot more than what the show "Cops" portrays, Mexico is a whole lot more than what "Border Wars" shows. Just as "Cops" disgusts me, "Border Wars" disgusts me.

Quoting caliatenza (Thread starter):
certainly tons better than a lot of places in India (which is growing at a rate of 8%+ annually),

India has been growing at a rate that for the past 5 years that averages between 6% to 8%, that is true. But the rate of growth of an economy is pretty much a useless indicator by itself. A better indicator is sustainable growth. Mexico´s economy has been growing at a steady, but pretty respectable rate averaging 4% since 1997. That is much more productive. However, even that is not a good indicator of the strength, solidity and development of an economy. Income disparity, birth rates, infant mortality rates, women at chidlbirth mortality rates, access to health care numbers, access to communications (telephone, TV, internet) kms of paved roads, urban population vs rural population, and a few more. Those are the real indicators that matter. In all of those, Mexico fares better than India.

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 2):
- It are not all Mexicans but also people from much much poorer countries like Honduras, El Salvador and Nicaragua who travelled illegally to the Mexican US border, they won't be able to get a proper job in Mexico.

No, they won´t, in some instances. But, it doesn´t matter. They are not in Mexico to get a job. They are in Mexico in transit. Their goal is to get to the US.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
As far as the break down of Mexican versus non Mexicans, per DHS stats in 2008 Mexican citizens accounted for 87.6% percent of all border apprehensions, with citizens of Honduras and Guatemala being the next largest group with about 3% each.

That figure seems high. The real number is close to 50% from Mexico, and 50% from the rest.

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 10):
The problem is not the general population, it's the drug runners and who do you suppose is responsible for that problem ? Yep, the US drug users and the "war on drugs".
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 11):
Right now, mainly in the northern and border cities of Mexico, there is a Civil War between the drug gangs/organized criminals and government police and other authorites

Exactly. While I would not say that we are in a state of civil war, the violence is pretty high. However, what the traffickers are trying to protect is their perceived right to grow and export drugs to the US. If the US had not failed so miserably in the past 30 years to curb consumption, we would not have that problem here. It saddens me to have to see spilled Mexican blood every day just so Mr and Mrs. Jones and their kids can have their monthly, weekly or daily fix of their drug of choice. You also have to keep in mind that this violence is also intra-cartel, and between cartels.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 11):
That 70% of the Mexican people live in poverty or near poverty,

That number is too high and incorrect. Depending which year you use, the number is between 40% and 50%.For comparison´s sake, in the USA, 13 to 17% of Americans live below the federal poverty line at any given point in time, and 40% fall below the poverty line at some point within a 10-year time span. Among the industrialized nations, the US has the most number of people living under poverty.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 11):
I fear that tourism will take a major dive due the drug fuled terror in Mexico, making a bad economic situation much worse.

Inaccurate. The tourism numbers are increasing this year and will reach and surpass the levels of 2008. The violence is pretty well defined to certain border states, and some regions in Michoacan and Guerrero. Mexico is not in a state of civil war and for the most part, its territory is peaceful. Just because CNN and Fox News live by spewing sensationalist crap, does not mean they are an accurate source.

Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 13):
There's not a lot of middle class in Mexico

Really? Strange. Mexican middle class numbers 40% of all households. Does that seem to you as not a lot?

Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 13):
Can live in a nice gated community, and enjoy the luxurie and get a visa to travel freely. If you're poor, you suffer.

A VISA to where? As far as I know, if you are a Mexican citizen, you do not need a VISA to travel anywhere in Mexico. Maybe you mean a VISA to travel the world? I was not aware such an instrument existed. Since it does not exist, how does the fact that having money makes it easy to get a VISA "to travel freely?" Do you mean a VISA to the US? More often than not, the US Consulates have specific guidelines to give a VISA. These are vague and not at all objective. Wether you have money or not is just one of their criteria.

Many people live in a gated community. You do not need to be a millionare to live in one. A lot of middle class families live in gated communities.

Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 13):
The government is corrupt, at least on the local level, and the drug cartels are more powerful than the government.

You are making huge and unfair generalizations here. Some governments are corrupt. Most are not. I live within a municipality where the rule of law holds. The drug cartels are definitely not stronger than the government. Not by a long shot. Our elite troops combating them are among the best in Latin America, at the same level as the Brazilians. The fact that the violence has in recent days turn more radical is a sign that the cartels are weakening by the week and soon, they will be gone. As said before, every week, a major member of a cartel is caught, killed and in some cases, extradited to the US.

Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 13):
If you were a Mexican police officer, or even a solider, making next to nothing, and unable to support your family, it's awfully tempting when the cartels offer to pay you many times more to work for them, or help them move their product without detection. And even if you don't get bought out, if you don't cooperate the cartels can just kill you if you don't go along, or impede their moving of product.

Some police officers are corrupt. Most are not. And that thing about the cartels paying "many times more" to work for them is a myth. The cartels have become so hard pressed for money, that the rate they pay nowadays is roughly equivalent to precisely the salary of your average Mexican police officer. The going rate for a good hitman in Mexico hired by a cartel is roughly $400 USD.

The Mexican armed forces are among the most institutional in the world. Sure, you will find some soldiers and officers that are corrupt, as in ANY OTHER armed forces. Most are not, and the degree of corruption in the Mexican armed forces is not that big as to pose a problem or a threat.

Most of the 28, 000 people killed by the cartels are people that were involved in illegal, raunchy stuff in the first place.

Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 13):
Read the news about ongoing in Mexico, and it seems like just about every time some town gets a new police chief that promises to crack down on the cartels, it's just a few months, or even just weeks before they're kidnapped, executed, and sometimes have their heads left on the front steps of the police station, or the body hanging by a rope from a highway overpass.

There are 2, 438 municipalites "some towns" as you call them, in Mexico. The number of chiefs of police killed in the past 5 years is less than 100

Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 13):
there was a gun battle in broad day light and the bullets started raining down and hitting building in nearby El Paso, Texas. Just a stone throw across the bridge People are afraid there. The cartels are more powerful than the government.

Poor people of El Paso. As long as Americans consume the staggering amount of drugs they consume, I can hardly feel sorry if some American border city has to directly face the consequences of the American glutony for illegal substances. As for the cartels being more powerful than the government, please refer to what I wrote above.

Now, please explain this to me: Once drugs from Mexico or from wherever else, for that matter, cross into the US, how do they get all the way to NY, IL, NJ, MA, IN, OH, WI, OR, WA, VA etc.? Are they magically teletransported, like in Star Trek? Beam this meth up, Scotty?" The network of corruption does not stop in the border. A lot of American authorities at many levels are involved, and they facilitate the transit of said substances all over the American highway system. Cartels have as much power in Mexico as they do in the US. But you won´t hear that on FOX or CNN.

Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 13):
The Mexicans have machine guns up on their southern boarder with Guatemala to keep out illegal immigrants looking for a better life in Mexico, or further north in the USA! Yet, they condemn us for trying to keep their illegals out of our own country, and even go as far an printing pamphlets to assist their people in getting into the USA illegally, so they can make money and send it home.

Your stance on that is pretty hypocritical, because Mexico is doing YOUR dirty job, by detaining in Mexican soil all these illegals that are heading up to your country and sending them back before they even set a toe in the Rio Bravo. Believe me, these people are not entering Mexico illegally because of the wonderful job opportunities here, or the high paying jobs. In my opinion, Mexico should let them through without as much as a costums search. After all, they´ll only be here for 72 hours, which is the time it takes for them to cross from Chiapas to the US border.

As for our border guards having machine guns, have you seen the pieces American ICE officials are carrying on the MEX-US border? On the customs control area at American airports?

The pamphlets the Mexican government prints, are not to assist people getting into your country. They are made to prevent them from dying. And once they are there, to help them get adjusted. Are you saying the Mexican government, or any government for that matter should not protect the welfare of their citizens? With, or without pamphlets, they are going to go into the middle of the Arizona desert in mid-July. What justification do you find for a government elected by the Mexican people to not protect said people? Just so you know, Clinton, when he was POTUS and the California governor of the time plus other important American authorities supported and support many of the suggestions in the pamphlet. Vote them out.

The American Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, actively gives suggestions on how to circumvent American laws so as not to get an American company doing business abroad in deep shit with said laws. Every other activity deemed immoral or un-ethical by any half-witted businesman is kosher as long as it adheres to the guidelines set on such act. It does not matter whether it´s illegal in the country where it is taking place. How is this FCPA different from the life-saving pamphlets the Mexican government prints? There is nothing new under the sun.

Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 13):
When I went to visit a friend in Mexico CIty, who claims it's perfectly safe, she was adamant that I be very careful about using ATM's at night. Plus, she lived in a gated community with a guard armed with a machine gun. I'm thinking, if it's so safe, why do I have to be so cautious and what's up with the guard with the machine gun?

Mexico City is as safe as any other city of its size. Are you telling me that if you go to an ATM at night in Chicago, Houston, NY, Miami, Los Angeles and other cities you would be very casual about it? I would never go to an ATM at night even in Singapore.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 16):
But don't pretty much all people there with money have armed bodyguards, nondescript armored vehicles, etc.?

The extremly rich, and not all of them, do. I have money. I´m not a millionaire, though, but my family and me are pretty well off. I don´t have a bodyguard, nor do I own an armored vehicle. Nor do any of my friends who are just as well off or more.


User currently offlinecaliatenza From United States of America, joined exactly 8 years ago today! , 1583 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3030 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 16):

If you remember a trip to Mexico when you were in college, I think you did it wrong.

lol nope i didnt do it wrong. We did the usual college guy circuit in TJ; i.e get drunk, go to more bars, go to clubs, and then go to the strip clubs. The second time it was strip clubs only. I think i have the TJ curse because every time i came back from there or while i was there, some crap always happened to me or our group.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 20):
Income disparity, birth rates, infant mortality rates, women at chidlbirth mortality rates, access to health care numbers, access to communications (telephone, TV, internet) kms of paved roads, urban population vs rural population, and a few more. Those are the real indicators that matter. In all of those, Mexico fares better than India.

I will agree with you there. I should know, I live in India for most of the year for school...and there is a big trash heap right outside my appt, just sitting there..and no one from the municipality really comes by and collects it. But i guess having more than a billion people in a land mass 25% the size of the USA really does present some problems  .

Quoting AR385 (Reply 20):

I have seen that show and it is very partial and pretty much a 45 min. long piece of sensationalism and journalistic crap. It is the same as saying that by watching the show "Cops" my impression of American society would be accurate. If it came to that, I would think that the USA is a society defined by meth and crack addicts, prostitutes and their johns, domestic fights between obese people and homeless midgets in Las Vegas.

True, but its not as sensationalized as Cops. I mean they really are apprehending people and stuff, its not just a setup for the cameras or whatever.


User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2951 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 20):
You also have to keep in mind that this violence is also intra-cartel, and between cartels.
Quoting AR385 (Reply 20):
Most of the 28, 000 people killed by the cartels are people that were involved in illegal, raunchy stuff in the first place.

This is an extremely important point everybody seems to overlook. The cartels aren't randomly shooting innocent people left and right just for shits and giggles for crying out loud. 90% of the time random shootings are the result of one guy, or group or whatever, getting even with another. Yes, unfortunately in the larger shootings civilians get caught in the crossfire, but that rarely happens. It's safe to say that the vast majority of people killed were better of dead anyways. Frankly, IMO, as long as the killings keep happening between the cartels themselves, I rather it be that way.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 20):

Now, please explain this to me: Once drugs from Mexico or from wherever else, for that matter, cross into the US, how do they get all the way to NY, IL, NJ, MA, IN, OH, WI, OR, WA, VA etc.? Are they magically teletransported, like in Star Trek? Beam this meth up, Scotty?" The network of corruption does not stop in the border. A lot of American authorities at many levels are involved, and they facilitate the transit of said substances all over the American highway system. Cartels have as much power in Mexico as they do in the US. But you won´t hear that on FOX or CNN.

I have it on good word from a friend who works at an Mexican federal agency, that shall remain anonymous, that he has known of many cases of fully loaded 53ft truck trailers traveling unrestricted and sometimes escorted to places as far north as NYC. And when his agency reported it to the DEA or FBI they didn't seem to give much bother on most cases. It's pathetic.

Quoting caliatenza (Reply 21):

True, but its not as sensationalized as Cops.

Oh pleeeeeeease!  


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26169 posts, RR: 50
Reply 23, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2917 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 20):
That figure seems high. The real number is close to 50% from Mexico, and 50% from the rest.

Not according to DHS stats.

Mexican citizens accounted for 88 percent of all apprehensions in 2008. Mexican citizens accounted for the majority of apprehensions in 2008 with 693,592 (87.6 percent) of the 791,568 apprehensions. Citizens of Honduras and Guatemala — the next largest countries of origin — each accounted for about 3 percent (23,789 and 22,670, respectively). From 2004 to 2008, Mexican citizens accounted for the majority of apprehensions.

about 3/4 way down on page:
http://www.migrationinformation.org/feature/display.cfm?ID=750#15

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 22):
The cartels aren't randomly shooting innocent people left and right just for shits and giggles for crying out loud. 90% of the time random shootings are the result of one guy, or group or whatever, getting even with another.

Oh common. There have been hundreds if not thousands innocent civilians caught up in the violence.

Some recent examples:
• Oct 28 - Bus carrying workers from a maquiladora in Ciudad Juárez shot at, killing 4 and injuring 14 passengers.
• Oct 28 - In suburb of the Guadalajara, two 2-year-old boys and three other people whom were bystanders on a street were wounded by grenade fragments during an attack on a private home.
• Oct 27 - 15 killed people at a car wash in Tepic when gunmen in three vehicles drove up and opened fire.
• Oct 24 - 13 killed in an attack on a medical rehab center in Tijuana.
• Oct 22 - gunmen massacred 14 young people at a birthday party in Ciudad Juarez

In addition Mexico has repeated and open attacks on the media.

So yes civilians are being sweeped up in the violence.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2892 times:

Quoting caliatenza (Thread starter):
I know that being a neighbor of the world's largest country is the biggest temptation for people to leave and start a new life, but is it so bad that they cant get a good job in Mexico?

I didn't know Mexico had a border with Russia.....


Anyway, I'd love to go there, but with all what you read in the media every day, I guess I would rather make a trip to Somalia.


25 caliatenza : oops, i meant to say world's largest economy.
26 Post contains images Fly2HMO : I never said they weren't. But they are definitely not in the thousands. Are you really that gullible?
27 Post contains links AR385 : I have different info: http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/s...blications/enforcement_ar_2009.pdf Excerpt: "Detentions ICE detained a record total of
28 LAXintl : The media which I categorize as civilians are being targeted by the violence. Matter of fact now Mexico is considered the worlds top 3 most dangerous
29 ogre727 : I´ve been to Mexico a few times.... but only to *gasp* Tijuana and Mexico City. Based on what I saw I would never go back... dirty streets (in both p
30 Post contains images Fly2HMO : Yet you got in an out of your surely lightning-quick trip which certainly didn't give you a true appreciation of the country unscathed and without he
31 AR385 : The above is what you wrote. You were wrong. As I said: Of course it is going to be high, 86% because if you take the TOTAL number of Mexican illegal
32 ogre727 : I said I choose not to... pay attention.
33 LAXintl : Bed days are like tourism numbers. Germans might come to oh Hawaii and and stay 10-days on average, but a Japanese comes for 3-days. If you add up be
34 AR385 : 28,000 is too many. As I said before. A number of these journalists were themselves involved in criminal activities. I never said anything to the con
35 Post contains images Fly2HMO : I know. But fine, live under a rock then.
36 KaiGywer : Huh? I don't speak Spanish and had no problem or fears navigating Mexico City's metro system when I was there a few months ago. To the contrary I fou
37 ogre727 : Dude... chill.... Not under a rock... I´ve lived in 9 countries, visited about 50... I just dont think Mexico is safe or pretty.. Im entitled to it.
38 757MDE : Damn right. Pretty much the story we had here in the 80s and 90s. We're still way away from being what we would like to be, but things are really not
39 sr117 : Well, Mexico City is not any worse in regards to crime than Sao Paulo or any dirtier than Buenos Aires, as you say, everyone is entitled to their opi
40 AR385 : Switzerland boring? Naaaaaah. You´ve obviously haven´t been to Friburg in the middle of January. It´s a hotspot of activity. Cancún is dead by co
41 yyz717 : I was in Mexico on business earlier this year in 3 cities: Mexico City, Guadalajara and Monterrey. I felt safe the whole time. All cities had poverty
42 Thorben : What makes you think that? It's all a conspiracy? Certainly some nice places in Mexico, but it is just not safe, so I have to go somewhere else. Sao
43 Post contains links sr117 : Some places of Mexico (like Yucatan) have crime rates as low as Canada. Of course you are free to decide what you want, but to say that the whole of
44 Post contains links PWM2TXLHopper : Perhaps you should keep up more with the national news down there. Most of these have happened in the last year or so. Most not in isolated locations
45 caliatenza : i would assume Cancun (which is on the Yucatan) would be fine,
46 Post contains links sr117 : All of the above is true, and the threat to journalists mentioned a few posts above is also true, in most cases reporting in Chihuahua or Tamaulipas
47 AR385 : It´s a good idea to read the news pieces you are quoting when making a point. it´s also a good idea to follow the thread you are posting on. What F
48 Post contains links PWM2TXLHopper : Like I said, no matter how bad somewhere is, the people from there always come to its defense saying how it's not that bad. I Don't have time to sear
49 sr117 : It's only natural, because the people that live there actually -live- there. And they can tell you if their daily life goes on mostly without a hitch
50 AR385 : Then, don´t post them. A certain amount of integrity needs to be maintained when quoting sources in a civilized discussion. If you are not willing t
51 Post contains images Fly2HMO : Perhaps you should get your butt down here and live for a year or two before making totally uninformed claims and displaying your blatant ignorance o
52 PWM2TXLHopper : I have been down there, four times. To Mexico City and Morelia to visit friends that have lived there longer than yourself. And even they admit thing
53 sr117 : That's more to do with the state of the economy and the demand for cheap labor up north, if you're destitute in Oaxaca and hear stories from relative
54 Post contains images Fly2HMO : And just where did I say it's all honky-dory like Disneyland? Then why me and 120 million other Mexicans haven't died from water poisoning? And last
55 AM744 : For the sake of the discussion I want to add that no gain comes without pain. We are going through changes that will ultimately lead to good things. I
56 okie : Thanks for your honest appraisal. Pretty much in line with what I have seen on my many trips to Mexico. I made many a trip during that time frame, th
57 Thorben : I know that it is a big country and that the killings and the so-called "drug war" is mainly happening in the norther border region (Ciudad Juarez fo
58 captaink : I think the fight to protect this wonderful country at his point is futile. My best friend who lives in New York was considering coming over here a co
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