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2 Years And 3 Months For £2.9m Fraud  
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7719 posts, RR: 21
Posted (4 years 1 month 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2171 times:

I seriously despair of my country. A guest to our land facilitates massive benefit fraud, stealing £2.9 million from the public purse, and all they get is a sentence of a little over two years. What the hell is going on???

Where else can you steal nearly three million pounds and get such a puny sentence? It makes me utterly sick.

I know I should be used to this nonsense by now, but this really makes my blood boil.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11347134


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
13 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineoffloaded From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2009, 905 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 1 month 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2020 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):

I had the misfortune to have a shared business venture (shared being that my company paid all the expenses, he and his side spent it) with an individual who recently got 3.5yrs. I was, at the the time of our joint venture, blissfully unaware of his background, or the £150million fraud he was charged with. He'd probably have got 99 yrs in the US.



To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4318 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (4 years 1 month 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2009 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
Where else can you steal nearly three million pounds and get such a puny sentence?

Just a wild guess:




My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7719 posts, RR: 21
Reply 3, posted (4 years 1 month 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2007 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 2):
Just a wild guess:

Meaning what precisely?



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4318 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (4 years 1 month 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1995 times:

Money rules. And has increasingly been so since the 1980s after a period between WWII and 1975 when there was more equality in justice across incomes in most of the world.

Since then, it's been downhill and since 2000, really downhill, mostly because in many first world countries that had some immunity in their justice systems vis a vis powerful pockets, is no longer so. After what I have seen, I trust the justice system of any country as much as my own, which is not very much (even though many lead you to believe it is worse at home).

So bottom line, England is not any worse or much better than most places.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7719 posts, RR: 21
Reply 5, posted (4 years 1 month 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1983 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 4):
Money rules. And has increasingly been so since the 1980s after a period between WWII and 1975 when there was more equality in justice across incomes in most of the world.

Since then, it's been downhill and since 2000, really downhill, mostly because in many first world countries that had some immunity in their justice systems vis a vis powerful pockets, is no longer so. After what I have seen, I trust the justice system of any country as much as my own, which is not very much (even though many lead you to believe it is worse at home).

So bottom line, England is not any worse or much better than most places.

Except this is not about complaining about capitalism, greed, whatever. This is a straightforward case of cheating the state out of benefits, and taking my question at face value, in the sense it was intended, you are not seriously telling me that plenty of other places would not give a much, much harsher sentence for taking 3 million pounds.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4318 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (4 years 1 month 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1939 times:

I'm seriously telling you that weath buys you justice in 2010 more than at any time since the 1930s.

And I'm a avowed believer in Capitalism, that does not mean I cannot see that wealth corrups many. I just don't advice killing the patient to fix a broken leg... (aka communism, etc).

But the fact is, in wealthy nations the justice system is beneficial to rich people not so much because of how they can use money to corrupt or influence (though it probably happens at times), but a factor most people fail to consider: most of the judges themselves are wealthy. In fact in almost all european nations, the North America, etc, judges are generally among the 10% wealthiest. That creates a problem when the entire justice system is staffed by people of just one social background, and it has been proven they will feel empathy and leniency towards white collar or intellectual crimes, than for ''lower class'' crime.

That is a very serious flaw. In third world countries is more of money directly influencing the judges and in fouth world countries the elites own justice directly. So at all levels of develompent, money will buy you justice.

The only way to mitigate this is to make the society itself less unequal, i.e Scandinavian nations or communist countries, but of course the Nordic countries are small in population thus more manageable than bigger countries, and communism proven not to solve such human questions.

[Edited 2010-11-16 07:59:55]


My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7719 posts, RR: 21
Reply 7, posted (4 years 1 month 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1931 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 6):
I'm seriously telling you that weath buys you justice in 2010 more than at any time since the 1930s.

Very nice diatribe, but this is clearly not such a case. This is merely a fine display of weak British justice failing the people yet again.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4318 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (4 years 1 month 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1927 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 7):
Very nice diatribe, but this is clearly not such a case. This is merely a fine display of weak British justice failing the people yet again.

So you are faulting the judge and not the system? So why did you say then ''this country'' inferring apparently to others the entire UK, if you believe another judge would have been fairer?

You are deceiving yourself if you think people today, almost anywhere in the world, get equal justice. Whether is based on what they can pay upfront for the right to be defended or because the justice system ''understands'' the crime they commited, the arbiters of justice for the most part come from a very different place than the average middle class civilian.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7719 posts, RR: 21
Reply 9, posted (4 years 1 month 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1920 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 8):
So you are faulting the judge and not the system?

I have not said that, neither can one reasonably conclude that from what I said. A combination in fact of weak sentencing policy and the overall 'system' lead to these sorts of useless, disproportionately lenient sentences in the UK on a regular basis. But again, this is a story of common criminality not being punished severely enough - not necessarily a discussion on capitalism and greed.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineoffloaded From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2009, 905 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 1 month 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1917 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 9):

One of my clients is a JP. You wouldn't believe what she tells me about Home Office sentencing guidelines. Actually, you probably would.

Something along the lines of "well if they didn't actually kill anyone..."



To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4318 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (4 years 1 month 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1917 times:

Fair enough, but since you said ''where else'' in your OP, it tends to be assumed that as justice is usually a provincial/state or federal matter, that the only way to get a better system is to look at places outside those borders altogether i.e other countries.

This is not a matter of capitalism, even of greed in the case of European justice, like I said I just think ''thieving with the mind'' is seen more benign than ''thieving with a gun'' in many courtrooms, partly because the latter is more violent thus it stirs the sense of wrong in judges more that some guy in a suit from a blackberry defrauding unaware victims. But also because I do believe there is empathy at play.

All I'm saying is that none of this should be surprising anymore... didn't aUnited States judge do something similar to a defrauder there? Where the accused wasn't even convicted in other to save is license to do business?

It happens everywhere all the time. Reform is necessary but I'll be the first to tell you that I don't have the soutions to that.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7719 posts, RR: 21
Reply 12, posted (4 years 1 month 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1916 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 11):
All I'm saying is that none of this should be surprising anymore...

You certainly have a point there, but you know, I will never get sick of this or accept it no matter how commonplace it has become.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4318 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (4 years 1 month 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1915 times:

Quoting offloaded (Reply 10):
Something along the lines of "well if they didn't actually kill anyone..."

Ditto. I just said it above too... I thought it was too obvious to state prior.

The system is flawed which is why we have increasingly seen this kind of crime in the last 30 years. It's not the fault of capitalism, which we accept comes with overly zealous greed in some, but it is the fact that for too long these crimes have been met with slaps in the wrist that so many countries as we speak are in serious woes caused by the lack of punishement. (see as opposed to more regulation which I think does not doo much good if you don't punish the laws you have).



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
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