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Court Upholds In-state Tuition For Illegals  
User currently offlineJetsGo From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3082 posts, RR: 5
Posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2433 times:

California's law allowing illegal immigrants to pay in-state tuition at public colleges and universities was upheld by the California Supreme Court today.

In a 28-page ruling, the state's highest court overturned a lower court ruling that said the law, known as AB 540, unfairly favors illegal immigrants who live in California over American citizens who live outside the state. Out-of-state tuition at University of California is more than $20,000 more per year than it is for state residents.

The seven justices of the Supreme Court agreed that the law treats all people the same, regardless of their citizenship status, as long as they meet certain criteria, such as attending high school in California for at least three years.


http://www.sacbee.com/2010/11/15/318...ourt-upholds-in-state-tuition.html

I'm speechless. Not only should illegal aliens be forbidden from attending a public university, but they get to do so cheaper than American citizens from other states?

  


Marine Corps Aviation, The Last To Let You Down!
36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTZ757300 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2868 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2422 times:

Quoting JetsGo (Thread starter):
Not only should illegal aliens be forbidden from attending a public university

I don't have a problem with illegals attending. As long as payment is made, education should be produced, BUT I feel like a process of getting a education visa should be done as well.

Quoting JetsGo (Thread starter):
but they get to do so cheaper than American citizens from other states?

This I agree with. Out of country usually means out of state rates at most, if not all universities and it should be enforced.

Though, If an illegal immigrant has been in CA for a long time, or even graduated from a CA high school, most universities nation-wide would see that person as someone who qualifies as in-state and usually doesn't segregate based on citizenship. Hell, if I stopped school for a year and worked in this state, I could claim in-state residency in 2 states, but I don't.



LETS GO MOUNTAINEERS!
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26426 posts, RR: 75
Reply 2, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2412 times:

Quoting JetsGo (Thread starter):
I'm speechless. Not only should illegal aliens be forbidden from attending a public university, but they get to do so cheaper than American citizens from other states?

Actually, this goes way back to the doctrine of dual sovereigns and the original founding of the United States. Someone who is a citizen/resident of a state is not necessarily a citizen/resident of the United States.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19516 posts, RR: 58
Reply 3, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2409 times:

Quoting TZ757300 (Reply 1):

I don't have a problem with illegals attending.

I do.

Now, I'm all for the DREAM act, but if that passes, then they won't be illegals.


User currently offlineZentraedi From Japan, joined Jun 2007, 660 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2395 times:

Well, I'd have no problem with it, but that's for the state to decide. Those "public" universities are STATE universities, not federal universities.

Hell, if anything it's the immigrants contributing more to US universities on average than your typical citizen. If you look at who is doing most of the stuff like break through engineering graduate research you'll find a large portion of foreign nationals.

I'd much rather have these places be merit based, rather than entitlement based upon your passport.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26426 posts, RR: 75
Reply 5, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2391 times:

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 4):
Well, I'd have no problem with it, but that's for the state to decide. Those "public" universities are STATE universities, not federal universities.

Exactly.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3059 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2388 times:

I wonder if we "all" boycotted paying any taxes of how fast we would get respect we deserve from the government and the courts as American tax payers.Maybe they will start doing what we expect of them to do instead of this constant betrayal crap.Problem is I'm beginning to yes to this.I'm so fed up with LA/Sacramento/Washington I just don't want to pay anymore.

Venting.Who else?



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39835 posts, RR: 74
Reply 7, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2388 times:

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 4):
If you look at who is doing most of the stuff like break through engineering graduate research you'll find a large portion of foreign nationals.

True, but those are the legal immigrants.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinesan747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4942 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2373 times:

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 6):
I wonder if we "all" boycotted paying any taxes of how fast we would get respect we deserve from the government and the courts as American tax payers.

Idealistically, it's a noble idea, but in reality: a) your wages wouldn't stop being withheld and sales taxes will still be applied to most things you purchase, so the bulk of the taxes you pay would still reach the government, and b) you will probably receive a visit from your friendly LEO or G-man about it.

As for the topic, I agree this is a state decision. I understand the anger about allowing illegals to attend and at a rate similar to CA citizens, but as a CA college student, as long as they pay and my tuition isn't going up because of them, I really don't have an issue with it.



Scotty doesn't know...
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39835 posts, RR: 74
Reply 9, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2368 times:

Are there a lot of illegals attending California Universities?
I earned my degree from San Francisco State University and I don't recall any illegals attending.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8871 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2364 times:

I hope that this will end up in the US Supreme Court, where it will be overturned as a discriminatory law against legal citizens and legal immigrants, how could it not be?  


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21558 posts, RR: 55
Reply 11, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2355 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 10):
I hope that this will end up in the US Supreme Court, where it will be overturned as a discriminatory law against legal citizens and legal immigrants, how could it not be?

How could it be? You're either a CA resident (citizen, legal immigrant, or illegal immigrant) and get in-state tuition, or you're not (again, citizen, legal immigrant, or illegal immigrant) and you don't. How is that discriminatory?

EDIT: Upon further research, residency is not on the criteria for in-state tuition, which is why it doesn't conflict with federal policy. Rather, it uses other metrics that are similar to, but not the same as, residency. Still not discriminatory. I'm not sure whether it's a good idea or not, but that's not what the courts are for.

-Mir

[Edited 2010-11-15 19:47:54]


7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineairportugal310 From Palau, joined Apr 2004, 3613 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2343 times:

Quoting san747 (Reply 8):
but as a CA college student, as long as they pay and my tuition isn't going up because of them, I really don't have an issue with it.

Wait and watch. As more people attend the schools, costs are going to go up and that will be passed along in some form of fee or another.



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8871 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2331 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
How could it be? You're either a CA resident (citizen, legal immigrant, or illegal immigrant) and get in-state tuition, or you're not (again, citizen, legal immigrant, or illegal immigrant) and you don't. How is that discriminatory?

Ok, a person is born in another state, is a natural born citizen of the US, they want to attend an institution in California. They are supposed pay many thousands more than someone who does not even belong in the country, according to existing immigration law. The state passes a law making the illegal equal to the natural citizen in this matter. I consider that a discriminatory law, the natural born citizen is denied the lower tuition, but the illegal is granted the lower tuition. The person who has the right to be here and attend, has had the seat in the institution taken by someone who does not belong legally in the country, or in the institution. NO student visa. The legal citizen is denied an education by an illegal being granted prefferential treatment. Lower tuition for the illegal, he can afford to attend, higher tuition for the natural born, so he cannot afford to attend. I think it is discriminatory.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21558 posts, RR: 55
Reply 14, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2305 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 13):
The state passes a law making the illegal equal to the natural citizen in this matter.

California can't do that - they have no say over who is legal and who is illegal, as that comes from the federal government. What they did is pass a law differentiating between people who have lived in California and people who haven't, regardless of their federal legal status, for the purposes of tuition. And that's not discriminatory.

All the court did was rule that the law is able to stand, and they were correct. If you want to say that the law is wrong, fine, but then your beef is with the legislature that passed it.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 13):
the natural born citizen is denied the lower tuition, but the illegal is granted the lower tuition.

Or you could say that the person who has lived in California is granted the lower tuition, while the person who has not is denied the lower tuition.

Ultimately, California has the right to determine the tuition charges for their own universities, so long as those charges don't conflict with federal laws or the Constitution. And the court ruled that this one doesn't.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8124 posts, RR: 26
Reply 15, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2306 times:

Quoting JetsGo (Thread starter):
I'm speechless. Not only should illegal aliens be forbidden from attending a public university, but they get to do so cheaper than American citizens from other states?

Agree with the ruling in that this doesn't treat anyone unfairly.

Not sure why this is so difficult to understand - you've either been residing in California for the required length of time (and ostensibly have paid into the system via taxes) or you haven't. Citizenship does not enter into the equation - students from other states simply do not meet the residency test. I'm an American citizen residing in Hawaii - my last residence in the US was California. Thus if I applied to a university in this state, I don't expect them to give me in-state tuition until I've been a local resident for whatever length of time they require. Not very difficult at all.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 13):
They are supposed pay many thousands more than someone who does not even belong in the country, according to existing immigration law.

I would need to read the ruling for greater clarity, but it's my understanding we're actually talking about children of illegal immigrants here. As I graduated from a public university in California some years back, and knew many foreign students, I'm quite sure you need to provide evidence of your student visa status in order to enroll.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8871 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2288 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 14):
California can't do that - they have no say over who is legal and who is illegal, as that comes from the federal government. What they did is pass a law differentiating between people who have lived in California and people who haven't, regardless of their federal legal status, for the purposes of tuition. And that's not discriminatory.

One would have to guess that this was the intent of the wording of the law, to make an end run around such issues, as discrimination. It is now a state issue in California but in Arizona, it is federal issue when dealing with illegals. Hmm?

Quoting Mir (Reply 14):
All the court did was rule that the law is able to stand, and they were correct. If you want to say that the law is wrong, fine, but then your beef is with the legislature that passed it.

They did, and I do have an issue with the intent of the law.

Quoting Mir (Reply 14):
Quoting Mir (Reply 14):
Or you could say that the person who has lived in California is granted the lower tuition, while the person who has not is denied the lower tuition.

Again, an end run around the issues, which is the state granting special status to people who do not belong, putting state residency as the top issue, to intentionally deny, or a least make illegals equal to the natural born citizen of the US, who have their rights by birth. Many of these students are not born in the US, they have resided here, for long periods, but are still illegal. If not dicrimination, certainly a form of state amnesty, by way of a cleverly written law.

Quoting Mir (Reply 14):
Ultimately, California has the right to determine the tuition charges for their own universities, so long as those charges don't conflict with federal laws or the Constitution. And the court ruled that this one doesn't.

Not an attorney, so only my opinion. Yes California has that right, they do not have the right to discriminate against a natural born citizen by again granting special status to illegals, who do not belong here by federal law. They should not have resided in California in the first place, so from the very getgo, they have no right to lower tuition, no matter how deceptively the law was written.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21558 posts, RR: 55
Reply 17, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2280 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 16):
It is now a state issue in California but in Arizona, it is federal issue when dealing with illegals. Hmm?

State universities are a state issue, and immigration status is a federal issue, yes.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 16):
Again, an end run around the issues, which is the state granting special status to people who do not belong, putting state residency as the top issue, to intentionally deny, or a least make illegals equal to the natural born citizen of the US, who have their rights by birth.

First time I've heard of there being a right to a certain level of college tuition.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 16):
Yes California has that right, they do not have the right to discriminate against a natural born citizen by again granting special status to illegals, who do not belong here by federal law.

They don't. Which is why they're not doing it. The "special status" is for those who have spent three years on CA high schools, etc. As Aaron said, citizenship doesn't enter into it.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineUNCRDU From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 195 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2273 times:

Ridiculous. At most public universities, the tuition and fees that an in-state student pays do not even come close to covering the actual expense that the student incurs at the university. The difference is made up by the state's taxpayers. In California's case, the taxpayers are actually paying for illegal aliens (yes, criminals) to attend public universities.

User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8871 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2267 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 17):
They don't. Which is why they're not doing it. The "special status" is for those who have spent three years on CA high schools, etc. As Aaron said, citizenship doesn't enter into it.

I am glad to see an admission of special status, for California residents of course, nothing to do with anyone being illegal. One would have to ask, what does legal citizenship do for a person? Why become a citizen? Why do millions of people desire to be legal citizens of the US? I guess it is squatters rights again in California. We are going back a century, and more for that policy.

Quoting Mir (Reply 17):
First time I've heard of there being a right to a certain level of college tuition.

There is not, there is right to being treated fairly by your country. There is an assumption to fair and equal treatment, under the law. Not states carving out special treatment for people who have no standing by virtue of law, in the state of country. When you come in illegally, you remain forever illegal, unless we have another amnesty program, we see how that has turned out.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineLufthansa411 From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 692 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2260 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 16):
Yes California has that right, they do not have the right to discriminate against a natural born citizen by again granting special status to illegals, who do not belong here by federal law.

But they do not have any special status with this ruling. The court simply stated that if an illegal immigrant (or the children of illegal immigrants) can prove that they are CA citizens, they are entitled to in-state tuition like normal citizens. Further, as was pointed out above albeit briefly, if you cannot produce proper documents proving you are a US citizen, you have to show you have the proper visa to attend school here.



Nothing in life is to be feared; it is only to be understood.
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8124 posts, RR: 26
Reply 21, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2245 times:

Quoting UNCRDU (Reply 18):
In California's case, the taxpayers are actually paying for illegal aliens (yes, criminals) to attend public universities.

Incorrect, as without student visa documentation this is impossible. Children of illegal aliens are attending California universities, yes. In all likelihood their parents have paid some taxes into the system - whether or not it is equivalent to amounts paid by legal residents is difficult to determine for sure.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 19):

I am glad to see an admission of special status, for California residents of course, nothing to do with anyone being illegal

And that's exactly the case, same as any other state with two tiers of tuition. It doesn't matter if one's parents were legal or not as all that matters is one has attended three or more years of secondary education in California. For the anchor baby issue - need to take that one up with the federal government, no?

Quoting Lufthansa411 (Reply 20):
The court simply stated that if an illegal immigrant (or the children of illegal immigrants) can prove that they are CA citizens
Residents, not citizens. As much as Californians would probably like having their own country at times, it's not the case.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6594 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2233 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 9):
Are there a lot of illegals attending California Universities?
I earned my degree from San Francisco State University and I don't recall any illegals attending.

So, you too can spot them just by look ?



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3059 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2171 times:

Quoting san747 (Reply 8):

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 6):
I wonder if we "all" boycotted paying any taxes of how fast we would get respect we deserve from the government and the courts as American tax payers.

Idealistically, it's a noble idea, but in reality: a) your wages wouldn't stop being withheld and sales taxes will still be applied to most things you purchase, so the bulk of the taxes you pay would still reach the government, and b) you will probably receive a visit from your friendly LEO or G-man about it.
Quoting san747 (Reply 8):
receive a visit from your friendly LEO or G-man about it.



(LOL) Yes,no doubt.(LOL) But my concerns are that all levels of government are crying huge budget deficits.Which tells me that OK,who what's going to get reduce,like social security and medicare,or layoffs which is easier to do then cutting the democrats voter base of social programs. And new taxes.



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlineavent From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2144 times:

While I agree in principle it is odd to let illegals get in-state tuition, would it be acceptable if they paid out of state tuition?

Do the illegals who are students pay taxes or produce a benefit to the State in other areas? If they graduate and earn higher salaries, won't they become more effective and useful tax-payers later in life?

Is the issue really that substantial?

I think the 'law of unintended consequences' is a big player here. What about the complaint and paranoia about illegals engaging in criminal activity? If some are paying their way through college, isn't this preferable to throwing them out and having them embrace a life of crime out of anger or desperation?


25 WarRI1 : No, they should not be here, plain and simple. I have skimmed through the courts decision, it plainly says that the blame lies squarely on the US Con
26 NorthstarBoy : I'm not surprised by this, this is the same state that tried to give illegals the ability to get driver's licenses. Thankfully that measure was slam d
27 CMHSRQ : Does anyone really wonder why CA is broke??
28 avent : Increasing expenditures without raising the taxes to pay for them? Did I get it right?
29 PSA53 : Social programs?Taxes?*Greed?Welfare?Immigration policies?Minimum wage? All of the above and more? Right now,homeowners,like me, are shaking in our b
30 dragon6172 : Children of illegal immigrants brought here illegally, are illegal immigrants as well... children of illegal immigrants born here are legal citizens
31 N1120A : Well, turns out the student body president at Fresno State may be undocumented. Also, you don't qualify "a lot." I doubt the number is more than 1%.
32 Post contains links N1120A : Incidentally, I just read the entire opinion - Available here: http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/opinions/documents/S167791.PDF For those who whine about "j
33 Aaron747 : Certainly does - just read it myself. The distinction between legislative intent and the Court's emphasis on statutory validity is critical and leave
34 Flighty : It's probably well more than 1%. California itself is about 10% undocumented, with about 3 million undocumented people. Mostly between the ages of 5
35 PSA53 : Then Ca state government needs to start to put out the welcome mat to bring back businesses by rolling back taxes,lowering minimum wage,which is a em
36 N1120A : That also really opens it up for some intellectual dishonesty if Cert is granted and certain members of the U.S. Supreme Court who pledge to hate leg
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