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Why Are A.netters So Anti-union?  
User currently onlineNorthstarBoy From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1825 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4687 times:
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It never seems to fail, every time i read a thread in civ av about airlines and unions people seem to come out spouting piss, vinegar and hatred towards unions. It's something i see all the time, but honestly, it's something i really don't get. As someone who sees enormous benefits in unions, I'm curious why others are so dead set against them. I have my own suspicions, but I'll set them aside for now.

So, do you hate the unions? if so, why?


Why are people so against low yields?! If lower yields means more people can travel abroad, i'm all for it
111 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineoffloaded From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2009, 871 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4665 times:

I don't "hate" unions, but I've been the "non union" guy in a "union" shop. The union did a great job of protecting the lazy and incompetent workers we had, ensured that even the broom pushers were receiving a totally unrealistic wage for their efforts. Our labour rates were therefore sky high, and we were getting undercut by non-union companies. The union refused to budge, and the company shut down operation completely in that province.


To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
User currently offlineflanker From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1630 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4662 times:

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):

So, do you hate the unions? if so, why?

Offloaded answered your Q

Quoting offloaded (Reply 1):

I don't "hate" unions, but I've been the "non union" guy in a "union" shop. The union did a great job of protecting the lazy and incompetent workers we had, ensured that even the broom pushers were receiving a totally unrealistic wage for their efforts. Our labour rates were therefore sky high, and we were getting undercut by non-union companies. The union refused to budge, and the company shut down operation completely in that province.

Precisely!! I am not a fan of unions for this reason. It would be a great step forward if unions competed between each other for the business of companies and really stopped protecting and rewarding incompetence.



Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24893 posts, RR: 46
Reply 3, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4635 times:

I’ll take a crack at this.

I’ll focus on comments about the airline industry strictly, and not broader context of unions in society.

To me unions in the airline industry whether in the US, the UK, or many other nations have simply lost touch with reality and have served or become major roadblocks at companies.

Unions sadly have played significant complicity in the destruction of many airlines, and ultimate resultant losses both financially to investors, and also to the workforce at companies that have undergone traumatic reorganization in bankruptcy for example, or died completely.

So I think until the time unions realize that the industry is now living in the new 21st century economy, and not mid 20th century blue collar utopia. Today business must move very fast to serve globally connected markets and ultimately the success a business is very much reliant on being able to be the most efficient producer of transportation. No longer are competitors protected nicely inside national silos but today must compete on a global basis.
In more and more cases it gets ever harder to support many of the shackles (pay, benefits, work rules) that unions have in place on companies. I truly shake my head often at the cost of employing folks in positions that outside the industry are nothing more than barely minimum wage, high school education jobs, but at airlines people manage six figure salaries for.

So I guess at some point, a light bulb needs to go off, and unions hopefully can reinvent themselves as a better fit what is a cut-throat global airline operating environment, and maybe cooperatively work hand in hand with their airlines to help them succeed, grow and prosper instead continuously trying to be stuck on to the past.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13518 posts, RR: 62
Reply 4, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4622 times:
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Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
I'm curious why others are so dead set against them

Having been part of a union and now part of management, I obviously have seen both aspects of the union/non-union argument, and while unions had their day when people needed to fight for better work conditions, overtime pay, safety standards, etc, those things are now provided under Federal Law, and no employer would or could dream of rescinding those things.

However, today another aspect of the union equation - work rules, wages and benefits - have created something of an unrealistic entitlement mentality among many of those who work under a union, where many unionized employees seem to believe they're to be forever granted ever-increasing pay and benefits, regardless of changing economic realities, competition, or just the normal business cycle.

It's that belief that economic reality applies to other people, not them, that makes many people dislike unions.

And yes, there's also the perception among many hardworking, dues-paying members that the only thing their union does is protect the jobs of the incompetent, the slackers, and those who refuse to live up to the work standards the rest of the employees do. This is usually because the CBAs typically include language regarding progressive steps of discipline, time limits for them, and how they can and cannot be administered by management.

Obviously these employees don't always know that management does in fact coach and counsel those underperformers and eventually does discharge them for performance issues once enough has been documented, but the reality is that in many cases the time it takes to build a case where a dismissal cannot be overturned in a grievance hearing takes a lot of time and gives good workers the impression that the union is protecting these non-performers.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 38
Reply 5, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4616 times:

I'm not anti-union. While I've never needed to use their services personally, they did swing into action very quickly to demand restoration of leave entitlements that were wrongfully removed from many staff due to an error. For me, it was only a few days - but still, that's my entitlements - as a part of the agreed package I signed up for when I started. For other people, it might have been far more days that they lost.

If it hadn't been for them, it would have been a long and tiresome battle to get those back.

The union in my line of work isn't particularly aggressive - it achieves outcomes through negotiation.


User currently offlinelhr380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4615 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
To me unions in the airline industry whether in the US, the UK, or many other nations have simply lost touch with reality and have served or become major roadblocks at companies.

Agree 100%.

Look at Unite, and the number of strikes and ballots they have held in the UK this year, at points they seemed to be trying to get about 10 or 20 companies to strike. Now they have a new Militant leader, I can only see things getting worse in 2011


User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4535 times:

Unions are fading further into oblivion...
Thanks to unions we enjoy five day work weeks, overtime, etc. But it's 2010 and everybody get's that regardless....
But when you let them go crazy you have Chrysler, Mexicana, California government workers etc...management or spineless politicians are just as much to blame too....
They also seem to have this us against them mentality and sense of entitlement regardless of the siutuation especially the public sector unions.....



Our Returning Champion
User currently offlineswissy From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 1734 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4508 times:

Why?

There was a time for it... however the unions are stuck and still do not see the light, the world is turning whatever they like it or not, they lost a tremendous amount of jobs to the far east, there is very little accountability for their action towards saving/destroying local jobs... have not seen any unions saving jobs... no creativity and common sense, but then again a union is only as strong as their members... so I guess it is not a union problem more a "member" problem...

Have attended way too many contract negotiation in the past... still cannot get my head around where these people come up with these ideas based on the past...

Cheerios,


User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4505 times:

Local and true story.

The county is facing a budget gap, so the county administrators went to the departments and asked all of them to agree to a pay freeze. EVERY department agreed, except for the police/sheriffs department. The union strenuously objected.

For the past few years the police had a promised 5% annual pay increase, under their contract with the county. The union rejected the freeze and demanded the promised 5% increase.

So the county agreed to the pay increase and found their cost savings by laying off some 20+ cops. F'ing retarded.

Want to know why unions are hated? Because they're led by corrupt and greedy leadership. How much do the union bosses of some of these major unions make? Auto workers? aviation? Steel/ heavy industry? They're not team players, they're not interested in the collective well being. They jealously guard 'what they feel is theres', like a crazed broad at the site of a 90% shoe sale.


User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5001 posts, RR: 28
Reply 10, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4497 times:

Union power! Unions are needed in the airline industry. Otherwise, the corporate morons would be paying everyone minimum wage, if that. If they could work you for free, they would.


I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6075 posts, RR: 29
Reply 11, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4483 times:
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Quoting offloaded (Reply 1):
I don't "hate" unions, but I've been the "non union" guy in a "union" shop.

I am that guy right now. I find the union to be stuck in the past. Our union (the NEA) seems to think that teachers are better than other types of workers. I hate the senority list crap. I have seen good teachers layed off and teachers who were once great, but lost it, still on the payroll only because they were on the job longer.

I find it laughable when our union talks about valuing different opinions. When somebody disagrees with them they are shunned and bullied into participating in the union's activities.

I also don't like unions bizzare devotion to democrats, regardless of what is right. Recently a 20 plus year teacher and president of an NEA local ran for congress on the Republican ticket. I know the guy and he is far from anti union. He approached the NEA about backing him for congress. He was told he was the wrong party and that they would endorse the democrat because they always have, even if he had not done anything for them lately. When a union doesn't back somebody in their own leadership who is running for office because he is the wrong party they surely aren't going to get my support.

Our union also backed Obama and the union magazine told us all many wonderful reasons to vote for him. None of his ideas for education were included in the magazine. After he was elected his ideas for education have came out and they go against what the union believes. I actually agree with Obama on a lot of his education agenda. Maybe the union should have done their homework and not endorsed him, but they "had to" because he was a democrat.

I don't like unions because they tell me what to think, how to act, and what to do, all while charging me $980 a year. My employer tells me how to act and what to do, but not how to think and they pay me....



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6483 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4482 times:

Quoting flanker (Reply 2):
It would be a great step forward if unions competed between each other for the business of companies and really stopped protecting and rewarding incompetence.

This goes with my belief that unions should transform themselves into contract labor agencies.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 13, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4446 times:

Quoting offloaded (Reply 1):
ensured that even the broom pushers were receiving a totally unrealistic wage for their efforts.

...and people wonder why jobs are moving offshore. Americans priced themselves out of the market.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 4):
However, today another aspect of the union equation - work rules, wages and benefits - have created something of an unrealistic entitlement mentality among many of those who work under a union, where many unionized employees seem to believe they're to be forever granted ever-increasing pay and benefits, regardless of changing economic realities, competition, or just the normal business cycle.

I've noticed that too. It seems that some employees feel the company exists for their benefit.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 11):
I hate the senority list crap.

I don't understand why people think they should be paid more just for being around longer. They should be paid more for performing better, having more responsibility, or having more skills which can all be gained partially through experience. But paying somebody more for just filling a chair longer than the guy next to him is dumb.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineairportugal310 From Palau, joined Apr 2004, 3587 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4383 times:

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 10):
Union power! Unions are needed in the airline industry. Otherwise, the corporate morons would be paying everyone minimum wage, if that. If they could work you for free, they would.

Way to be "that guy"



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24893 posts, RR: 46
Reply 15, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4367 times:

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 10):
the corporate morons would be paying everyone minimum wage, if that. If they could work you for free, they would.

And maybe, many of those jobs are only worth minimum wage?

In all seriousness, labor agreement artificially stratify pay rates regardless of their true actual demand or value. Labor agreements might hold down pay on newcomers, or for certain positions while grossly overpaying for others.

In a free economy and one without fixed labor agreements, pay would would be dynamic and be based on simple supply and demand rules. Each job and person would would have a value attached to it.
As an example cabin cleaner might only be worth $8/hr instead of the contract $18/hr labor rate, while that new FA might start at $28,000/yr instead of contract $18,000/yr.

Looking at things from a business sense, its amazing how airlines must compete or die based on pure and mean market forces on the outside, but internally they have hamstrung by all types of rules and things like CBA's that live in their own world without much flexibility, or relations with exterior reality.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offline4holer From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 2999 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4346 times:

Short answer to OPs question: Eyes. Ears. Brains.

Long answer involves my growing up in Pittsburgh in the 70s and 80s combined with personal experience as a Union member, topped off with a delightful cherry of observations.



Ghosts appear and fade away.....................
User currently offlineDiamondFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1515 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4269 times:

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 10):
Union power! Unions are needed in the airline industry. Otherwise, the corporate morons would be paying everyone minimum wage, if that. If they could work you for free, they would.

Only because people of your mentality don't have the intestinal fortitude to not take a job for minimum wage or less, or quit a job when the company lowers pay to that point. The pro-union crowd likes to talk about how without a union pay would be awful, but never once have I seen a union speak about personal responsibility.

-DiamondFlyer


User currently offlineJetsGo From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3081 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4225 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 18):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 21):

Sorry, but I have to agree with 777236ER. I fall right into his descriptions and I don't feel like he called me a "poor hating person."



Marine Corps Aviation, The Last To Let You Down!
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 19, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4225 times:

The big picture .... Unions are the tool to destroy capitalism . Marx wanted outright revolution to over throw capitalism ...other's knew better and understood unions would do the job in the end.

Its a shame because I understand the important role employee unions (could) play to help workers. The problem is the organization and members of the unions are too valuable of a political prize to be manipulated. And in my opinion ..all major unions lean left and will always support social democrats. When we see Unions like SEIU ..who are intensely politically active and intensely left wing meeting with the President of the US on a regular basis ... it is worrisome. Not to mention that Trumka AFLCIO goon... jeezuz the guy looks like a politburo boss from the soviet union and sounds like one too. They are the enemy within ... and I am afraid they will eventually win (or have won)... "workers of the world unite"...



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5432 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4189 times:

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 7):
They also seem to have this us against them mentality and sense of entitlement regardless of the siutuation especially the public sector unions.....

Public employee unions should not be allowed. They essentially get to vote twice and game the process. They should be banned.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 10):
Union power! Unions are needed in the airline industry. Otherwise, the corporate morons would be paying everyone minimum wage, if that.

You are wrong and you certainly have nothing to point to to demonstrate your point as being true. Delta is mostly non-union and yet it's employees are not all paid minimum wage. Even that bottom feeder corporation called Walmart does not pay all it's employee's minimum wage. Most companies are nonunion and yet most people do not earn minimum wage. Most companies pay more to people who do the job better, have more skills, and/or have more experience on which to draw (shorter training time required, faster learning curve, likely less prone to errors due to knowledge gained from do the job), etc.

I have always pointed out the problem of the "seniority trap" that exists in airlines (even though this thread is not only just talking about airlines). Normally an employee who is dissatisfied with their job can go and seek another job, one that will provide equal or better pay, better work environment, and/or a better chance for advancement based on their level of skill and experience. But in the airline industry the employees are generally trapped by seniority. The protection a union provides is such that if they ever leave their job they are forced to start at the bottom of the next job/union. Funny thing is most union employee's can't comprehend this, they are too stuck on "their seniority".

Instead of being free to apply to the better airline they are stuck. And instead of a better airline being rewarded with better employees, they are also stuck (in general, there are some exceptions) with getting the lowest time employees, the ones who are willing to leave their jobs because they have little to lose. Normally in the free market a poorly run business will lose its best employees to the well run company but in the airline industry poorly managed airlines can survive and drag on for years because the employees can't leave. And the union employees are stuck in the failing airline having to depend on management to figure out how to save the airline. Management they already don't seem to trust.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinebhill From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4155 times:

For me, it's not a matter of hate, dislike, etc; but one of pity. Unions remind me of the Communist Party..everyone has to be the same and you cannot advance on your own merits. To attempt to stand out for higher pay or any other recognition on an individuals' accomplisments would be anathema and you would pobably be labeled a "corporate lackey"...besides, if you feel that the "morons" in management treat you poorly, go elseware, don't coerece the company into bankruptcy.


Carpe Pices
User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 38
Reply 22, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4138 times:

Quoting bhill (Reply 21):
To attempt to stand out for higher pay or any other recognition on an individuals' accomplisments would be anathema and you would pobably be labeled a "corporate lackey"...

that doesn't happen everywhere. We have pay brackets, you start at one level, and progress based on merit to the highest level of a few years. If you want to get paid more, you apply for a higher graded job.

Don't see what is so dramatically different to the corporate world. In fact, those very anti-union corporate people (who you idolise) are probably earning more than I do. So much for them taking low pay for the good of the their company....


User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4119 times:

The reason Airliners.net is anti union is because of it's demographic. The majority of it's users are from North America and western Europe, therefore are relatively affluent and white. The trip reports section indicates a middle and upper class demographic. The population is overwhelmingly male, and quite young.

The evidence suggests that this group is quite well off, with a good income and secure jobs. Hence, they do not benefit from typical unions.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incom...e_United_States?wasRedirected=true


User currently offlineavent From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4097 times:

For every anti-union rant there is an anti-management equivalent... Unions protect the lazy? Well management looks after its own just as often. Unions drive up costs? Look at the gluttons who wrecked the economy - how about those costs?

Can unions be corrupt? Absolutley. Can corporations and management be corrupt? Absolutely.

Can unions be responsible? Absolutely. Can management be responsible? Absolutely.

If you think you're better served by management protecting it's investment through minimizing wage increases or through laying you or your colleagues off - then be anti-union.

If you'd like some protection against an incompetent and gluttonous management that will fire you because your hard earned wage increases are seen as being something they can better direct at their profit margins to hide their incompetence - then be anti-union. If you think when you get to your fifties the managers can fire you so they can hire younger kids with reduced health costs - then be anti-union.

It's quite simple really.


25 jetblueguy22 : I am anti union because i don't think they are needed and just hurt companies. Back in the day they were needed. Work conditions were awful and people
26 cpd : Rubbish. I can think of hard working management that are also union members - and they worked very hard, more than a non-union person might have done
27 falstaff : That pisses me off too. I have the same education and same job responsibilities as everyone at work with my job classification, but they are paid twi
28 PPVRA : Why do you have pay brackets within the same job? I mean, I can see if it's an entry-level bracket, then an experienced bracket. But if you're doing
29 wn700driver : I disagree. I recently fired a manager at my place of employment, over several crew scheduling transgressions and for her failure to ensure a safe en
30 vikkyvik : Why does that matter? My reasons for going to work may be different than yours, but that doesn't make them any less valid. Besides, face it: the majo
31 cpd : It increments after a few years to the maximum level. It's like an experience/performance thing. When you reach the highest level, that's the limit -
32 Post contains images Kent350787 : OK cpd, where in the NSW public sector are you? I've been "management" for most of my career, in roles where union negotiation is a regular activity,
33 charlienorth : Been in 4 different unions and I have worked as a manager, I'm not crazy about the "union attitude" but I also do not care for a lot of views I see on
34 EA CO AS : Yes, but as you said - why did you fire this manager? Because they failed to live up to their obligations to meet standards established under the law
35 NWAdeicer : Why would it take 20 days to discipline an employee?[Edited 2010-11-23 19:17:28]
36 vikkyvik : Well, to be fair, I hadn't participated in the discussion up to that point (though I had read it all). I don't think union workers are any more or le
37 EA CO AS : Ideally it shouldn't, but there are times when investigating the problem can take time, not to mention other things that can occur that can take prec
38 NWAdeicer : I've got an uncle who is a Homicide Investigator for the St. Paul Police Dept. He's solved homicides quicker. I'm sure there are more than just a cou
39 EA CO AS : Goody for him. Unfortunately, complex workplace situations can sometimes involve more in-depth investigations than a homicide. Yes. A better question
40 charlienorth : Do'h ..too many
41 Post contains images Aaron747 : Yes. Their greed has unequivocally robbed a once great American airline industry of every ounce of glamor it ever had. Poor management has only been
42 BMI727 : The only reason one should be paid more is for more performance. Especially in the case of teachers, it seems that unions are helping to keep subpar
43 NWAdeicer : I appreciate the debate but would rather end it. My apologies to both EA CO AS and Aaron747.[Edited 2010-11-24 06:08:44]
44 L410Turbolet : My problem with unions is the European folklore of unions acting as an extended hand of socialist/communist parties and their efforts to play big poli
45 NWAdeicer : EA CO AS and Aaron 747 you both have PM's. Tried to PM you EA CO AS but cannot for some reason. Please PM me when you can.[Edited 2010-11-24 06:05:01]
46 thegreatRDU : Well that's good to know.... Amen Absolutely.....that's a big one....paying ridiculous wages for menial labor... It takes 2 to tango....
47 474218 : I don't hate unions, I was even in one for about seven years. Unions are fine for people that value job security more than advancement. Working in a
48 KiwiRob : I'm pretty happy not being in a union, at my workplace unionised employee's got a maximum 3% pay rise this year, I got 6%. Strange but in Norway they
49 falstaff : I worked at a supermarket when I was 16. I actually left McDonalds because I thought it would be better. I was forced to joint the union, but I could
50 jetblueguy22 : I'm not in a union and I love my job! I truly do. I may not get paid the highest but if I wanted a higher wage I'd just go to my boss and ask for one
51 AGM100 : We are working aircraft at a certain state owned MRO in Italy right now .... try getting the union machinists to "do work" and have one single bit of
52 Aaron747 : I also worked at a supermarket in high school and was told I had to join the union within a certain number of days or couldn't stay employed. I was p
53 BMI727 : People always throw out the "If there were no unions, everyone would get minimum wage..." line, but some jobs are minimum wage jobs.
54 hka098 : Same here. I don't begrudge anyone the chance to make a good wage, but unions today are just another bureaucracy. I used to work with Teamsters and f
55 WildcatYXU : Actually, there is some logic behind gradual pay raises. A person who would work for the same pay his/her whole life would experience a gradual wage
56 PSA53 : I'm more union then business at this time.For decades,business and the unions had a business relationship in which it was,using the words, fair and ba
57 THEBATMAN : Let me start by saying that I've been a Union worker my whole professional life. That said, what has a Union done for me? Collect my dues. Am I anti-u
58 Post contains images EA CO AS : Sometimes a.net doesn't easily able people to PM me since the spaces in my username can apparently make the system not work. Oh, and you have a PM in
59 Flighty : Union members often act like children (because of the perversity of job holders holding business owners for ransom). They have threatened me, my job,
60 PPVRA : That's something else. Raising pay to keep up with inflation is just fine, but beyond that - i.e., a "true" pay raise - requires a bit more. And it's
61 charlienorth : All this hatred of unions is nuts, do I love unions...no..been in several but too many of you think the whole problem is unions, not just airlines but
62 EA CO AS : You make valid points, particularly about bloated pensions for government employees, but this thread was specifically regarding unions.
63 charlienorth : Noted...and I know like me you've been on both sides of the union thing and I can understand Educated opinions from both sides, believe me I'm no hug
64 Post contains images WarRI1 : They are 100% correct. there is an old saying "It's up there waiting for you Sonny" If you are not aware of the meaning, you do not understand much a
65 474218 : The main problem with unions: I and not every other member's "brother".
66 Post contains images charlienorth : That part always creeped me out too
67 avent : It's noteworthy that this has been one of the most profitable quarters ever for american corporations, even as we're in the middle of a recession. I w
68 Flighty : If profits are so high, why not start your own company... seriously. You'll be rich. In the meantime, others will create new companies / expand profi
69 EA CO AS : And yet, after one profitable quarter, unions in contract negotiations will point to that one profitable quarter as ample proof they're being underpa
70 474218 : The reason that corporation are profitable right now is because they are not spending money. But instead are holding on to any money earned until the
71 avent : Ah yes... the mythology that if one doesn't like paying the best part of $100 to go to a ball game, one is free to set up their own team and league s
72 avent : I think most reasonable people would see a difference between corporations having a profitable quarter, and having the highest profits ever.
73 avent : Perhaps, but financial reserves and profit are two very different things.
74 PPVRA : Please explain your logic. Wrong. Unemployment is caused by minimum wage laws. edit: you can add other labor laws that increase non-salary/wage emplo
75 cpd : They could always been even more minimum wage than what the minimum wage currently is. I've seen the effect of labor laws that don't have enough powe
76 Post contains images thegreatRDU : Tell that to California....
77 LAXintl : I'd say labor laws should not be used prop up wages. Let the market decide what a person or a position is worth. Legislating as with labor contracts
78 Post contains images swissy : You are right... if someone chooses to work for lesser money than they think they are worth.... do not blame anybody but yourself for taking the job/
79 Flighty : True, but it was ever thus. People usually complain about their pay. This country has more high paying jobs than any other country. It isn't even clo
80 avent : This is a very sanitized version of recent history in my opinion since it pretends the recent bubble was a simple excess of capitalistic fervor and n
81 EA CO AS : Can you provide a specific example of this, where job duties and responsibilities were equal but private sector vs. government pay was that disparate
82 PPVRA : I wouldn't call massive government incentives to stimulate housing "capitalist fervor". Nor government-induced massive credit expansion. The only myt
83 Zentraedi : Some A.netters are anti-union because it's a cheap talking point raged over by the sensationalist media in the US. This puts many into sort of a delud
84 Post contains images charlienorth : In a nut shell
85 PPVRA : The only way this would happen is if you are highly skilled in something that is just about completely useless. And in that case, you want wage price
86 Post contains images cpd : No, not really - I'm thinking of technician type jobs repairing industrial products that are used everywhere, not useless at all - and if it were use
87 adxmatt : That is one way to look at it. Or was it that the union was making the company act in a fair manner to ALL the employees? I've seen union members fir
88 PPVRA : I'd give you that there's one other way - and that's if such a high skill is quite common or such skill level is easily attainable (or even unnecessa
89 EA CO AS : ROFLMAO!!! Seriously? THAT is the example you're using? You're neglecting to mention the fact that the government job you mention has only been held
90 Post contains images cpd : Okay, which government job is it then? And name some of the people who've done it. Because I think you've got it wrong. And certainly, those people a
91 avent : Neither would I. I haven't seen anyone raise that issue in this thread.
92 EA CO AS : Obviously the only U.S. government job that pays $400,000USD/yr is President of the United States. Is that so? Explain. And getting back to your prev
93 Post contains images YVRLTN : I believe that the world has changed a lot and that the purpose for unions as when they were instituted is largely non-existant. Lots of Americans on
94 avent : Maybe we should go back to the days when the foremen would take a cut from the day wages paid the desperate men waiting each morning at the dock gate
95 Post contains images cpd : Thank you. It's not the President of the USA - and it's not even in the USA. In fact, it's just a humble state-government department chief in a state
96 bjcc : As a concept, Unions are a good thing, provided they represent their member's interests and wishes. So, where management are acting wrongly in terms o
97 Post contains images varigb707 : I am not. GO TEAMSTERS !!!!
98 Pyrex : If you remember movies like "On the waterfront" it was actually union leaders who usually did that...
99 Flighty : Public service bureaucrats are not the same thing as private executives. Here the pay difference is even more pronounced. Our voting public does not
100 EA CO AS : And I was referring to U.S. government jobs, as you clearly can see from my post. I'm not interested in what other governments pay.
101 BMI727 : That is just the way it is. The private sector will almost always pay more than the government, which makes sense considering that the private corpor
102 avent : Sounds like the corporate and banking sector, but that's different I suppose.
103 avent : This is a good point, and shows neither is necessarily better than the other, which begs the question raised in the topic. How many of the anti-union
104 HAWK21M : Unions are great when they serve the purpose of the Employee.It gets bad when it raises small topics to stop and airline functioning.
105 PSA53 : I wouldn't say small topics.The unions were trying to stay alive.In the early 80's,Frank Larenzo with Continental started it all.And I do remember th
106 HAWK21M : The Airline concept & the Atmosphere of an Airline to an Employee & Pax is not the same anymore....Changes with time.
107 bill142 : Maybe not in the US but senior Public Servants in Australia, for the Commonwealth Government at least, are on negotiated contracts and are on well ov
108 petitechoux : Because unions create lazy people who dont want to work, and who make you do all the work, and who never get into any trouble what so ever.
109 wn700driver : Should? Perhaps not. But at my shop the policy is that the issue/employee must be counseled/disciplined within the shift the incident in question occ
110 Post contains images WarRI1 : Once again, this must be an opinion formed by the many years of life and work experiances that you obviously have accumulated in your LONG life, and
111 NorthstarBoy : So far, I've purposefully stayed out of the debate, because the goal in starting the thread was to learn how other people feel about the subject of u
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