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What Do Terrorists Want?  
User currently onlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13197 posts, RR: 15
Posted (4 years 4 weeks ago) and read 2511 times:

For many years, we have seen many acts and attempted acts of terrorism, especially from groups and persons in the mainly Islamic Middle East and other areas. Many of these acts have been in Europe, some in the USA, others in places as diverse as the Philippines, Indonesia, India and so on, attacking or using airliners as part of their plans, attacking hotels, public transit, buildings of 'western' businesses and diplomatic facilities.

My issues is this: What do they want? What are their goals? Do they think they can win? Far too often in their statements, they seem to give the vaguest statements like to make the west convert to Islam, to support the demise of Israel, against local leaders, western cultural ideas like treating women with dignity and so on. Is it revenge against the USA's Cold War and post-Cold War policy for too long against and in some cases forcing, revenge by murder to put in leaders friendly to us, but often horrible to some ethnic and religious minority. In some cases, states like Syria and Libya have sponsored or otherwise supported or supplied critical materials for terror actors to seek revenge against the USA/Europe for their support of Israel and military/missile attacks on them. For the individuals, perhaps they seek adventure from their miserable lives, or get the '72 Virgins' or some silly to us personal gain. Is it our attempted military occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan or support of unpopular and corrupt leaders like the Saud family of Saudi Arabia.

Let use see some of they thoughts on reasons and perhaps reasonable ways to remove these reasons.

34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineajd1992 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 weeks ago) and read 2503 times:

To kill people in the name of their God, which to them makes it OK to do.

Not much else to it really.


User currently offlinesignol From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2007, 3024 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2477 times:

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 1):
To kill people in the name of their God, which to them makes it OK to do.

  

The terrorists want something specific, usually they areupset about a perceived injustice. Often the support of Israel, or the invasion of Afganistan / Iraq. Occasionally, people are more against the Western, capitalist way of life, so rather than aim to kill all westerners, the aim is to "convert" people to their religion / cause.

signol



Flights booked: none :(
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9739 posts, RR: 31
Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2467 times:

Same what the communists, the nazis, the conquistadores and any other religious / political movements tried to do.

Conquer the world and have all people bow to their ideology. Such an ideology always is against the individual rights and forces their followers into a totalitarian regime. It has never worked and it will never work. Freedom, individual and freedom of societies will always win.

Whatever reason is given by terrorists, perceived injustice, Israel, our western way of life, eall reasons given are utter rubbish and unjustified. The terrorists, their followers and sympathizers are a bunch of hostile, intolerant criminals, nothing else..



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40066 posts, RR: 74
Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2348 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):

The terrorist have made it very clear what they want.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 3):
the nazis

Doubt the Nazi's wanted to turn Africa & Asia in to Aryan people.
From what I read, he only invaded northern Africa to be able to invade Italy and was meant to be a staging point only.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 3):
The terrorists, their followers and sympathizers are a bunch of hostile, intolerant criminals, nothing else..

        
Well said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9739 posts, RR: 31
Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2326 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 4):
Doubt the Nazi's wanted to turn Africa & Asia in to Aryan people.

Did I mention that anywhere? But picking up your line, no, certainly not Aryan people but slaves and territory that culd be exploited.

The individual tasks may vary in detail but the goal is always the same, supremacy of the own ideology and terrorizing everyone who does not comply. The islamists hate individual freedom, they hate the western way of life and they do everything to send the society back into the times before enlightenment, before civil rights and that can be pinpointed pretty much to the times before Martin Luther.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40066 posts, RR: 74
Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2311 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 5):
Did I mention that anywhere?

Relax.
Just wanted some clarity.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5654 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2294 times:

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 1):
To kill people in the name of their God, which to them makes it OK to do.

The terrorist leaders use religion as a tool to recruit and enrage their followers. It is more a means to their goal, than their goal.

Terrorism is always political. Regardless of what the stated cause is, the ultimate 'destination' is some form of change where the terrorists' ideology(ies) is forced upon their victims.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2289 times:

No two people want the same thing, how can you say something as diverse as 'Al-Qaeda', let alone all Islamic terrorists, have anywhere near the same agenda?

Then again, the real terrorists are the ones who support destroying our freedoms and liberties in the name of 'security'.

[Edited 2010-11-23 10:42:36]

User currently offlineAKiss20 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 651 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2267 times:

I highly recommend you try reading "Three Cups of Tea" it is very informative of what life is actually like in the Central Asia area (Pakistan, Afghanistan etc) and the roots of our current situation. I am finishing it up now and it is excellent.


Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined exactly 15 years ago today! , 4318 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2249 times:

I have a thought that as with everything, the more time passes the more the original purpose of something gets lost into a completely vague identity.

Modern terrorism in the name of ''Islam'' began as a reaction to decades of harrasment and meddling by the West of Arabs nations, from Iraq to Iran, to Palestine and Saudi Arabia, and on and on.

The West needs to own up to that fact.

Now, I feel it's more just a way of life for many because the underlying reasons were never adressed quickly enough to stop it from becoming an entrenched lifestyle. They may put of a good game that they do what they do for specific reasons (Holy land conflict, etc), but I really think many do it just because it is a way out of misery or an ingominous life, and they take out their frustrations in this manner, against the West which they see as succesful and those envy it's power.

Beyond the terrorists, while the Arab/muslim world had reasons to be grieved and wronged, it is also my belief that the islamic culture itself is in a deep crisis. Many elements within it want to keep their socities shielded not only from modernity, but from rationality. Which is why all along the islamic world's borders (saharan and upper sub-saharan Africa, western China, southern Rusia, Indoensia, India, Israel, the Balkans), it always seems to be that there is a conflict between islamic elements and someone else. The constant is ''islamic extremists''. So it is natural to conclude that there is a fundamental crisis inside islamic based culture that seems to be incapable of coexisting or adapting to the times. Which is sad because 1000 years ago it was Christianity that was the intransigent faith and Islam the more adaptive, accepting and enlightened one.

In the end, because the original grievances were not properly adressed, you reach the situation where people just fight to fight and not much else.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9739 posts, RR: 31
Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2221 times:

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 8):

Then again, the real terrorists are the ones who support destroying our freedoms and liberties in the name of 'security'.

you cannot call people who have been elected into office in free, democratic votes "terrorists". It is their job, once in office, to protect the public. Now, we can discuss the wway they are doing it. It is not always wise what elected officals are doing and we can criticizse them in many ways.

But it is absolutely wrong and a gross misjudgement of how governments funtion to call them terrorists. You have to understand that an individual who is voted into an office is accountable for what he is doing. That alone separates us from terrorists.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineTheCol From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 2039 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2201 times:

It all boils down to hate and greed. Both forces act like a disease that poison's the soul, killing off all sense of empathy and morality. Terrorists are "zombies" that have become enslaved to their own hate and greed, operating with absolutely no sense of rationality. They in turn spread it around like a plague. Like over the course of most diseases, IMHO, there is a point of no return. So in other words, Terrorists don't want anything tangible. They'll never be satisfied with anything we give them. They just want to reap a path of destruction and export it around the globe.


No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20336 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2139 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):

My issues is this: What do they want? What are their goals?

Well, they want an unrealistic version of the world in which everyone is like them and agrees with them. More immediately they want many things, but most of them want to destroy. I don't think you could do this kind of work if you didn't enjoy it. In a weird way, I can almost see how it could be fun and exciting. Don't report me to DHS for that, I'm harmless as a butterfly and I couldn't bring myself to intentionally harm a complete stranger who I'd never met. But I can see how the job would have its intellectual and logistical challenges. Kind of like arranging a good prank, like the kids at MIT do. With trivial exception: in these "pranks," tens to thousands of innocent people die while just trying to go about their lives.

Why? They're poor. They've admitted this and we know this. When it comes to funds, they have nothing. Oh, some heroin money here and some government money there, but when compared to even the military of a modest-sized first-world country like France, AQ are pitifully underfunded. They're desperate. They're envious of us and our lifestyle. They've all but admitted it. Except they speak of "decadence." That must never be allowed. And yet this is the culture that gave us hashish, hookahs, and belly dancers. They hate freedom. They want a Muslim Middle-East and they want the West out of it. They blame us for their wars (and in many cases we are actually responsible), their famines (ditto), their industrial accidents (ditto), their loss of culture (ditto) and eventually we are the Great Satan.

How? They've figured it out. With publicity. They go "BOO!" and we drop another three gajillion on security. Security is going to become a major expense, one to rival defense. And and at the rate we are going we will live in a security nation with a national police that can spy on us and do all sorts of things in the name of "stopping terrorism." It will become far worse than communism ever was because there is no way to win a war on terrorism. You'd sooner defeat Homer's Hydra with a bronze sword. Every time we give up our privacy or our liberty, every time someone suggests violating this or that part of the constitution for "security's sake," they score a point. And, like Communism, I'm afraid that terrorism will leave its indelible mark on our society. Many of our worst policies were forged during the Cold War.

I'm reminded of an episodes from the ThunderCats (remember them?) in which they defeat a particular monster because the monster is fed by fear. They turn their backs on him and he shrinks to something small and impotent and they force him back in his tomb. The War on Terror can only succeed with the same mentality. We must not fear. We must accept that there is a minute chance that we can be might die in an attack today, but we must not change our way of life. Unfortunately, with various privacy acts, etc. and now the infamous body scanners, we have.

The more we fear and the more money we spend, the more less like a civilized, democratic nation we become, the more they have won. I flew within 6 months of 9/11 and I would have flown the next week if I'd had somewhere to go. I have never once hesitated to step on a plane because I was afraid of terrorists. I am now very hesitant to step on a plane because I am afraid of my government.

Terrorists: 1 US: 0


User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2057 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
What Do Terrorists Want?

I like to think of them of needy attention whores, just like many women out there. They're never satisfied with anything in their lives and even when they get what they want, they don't stop there, they keep bitching, moaning and whining and asking for more or something else or whatever.


User currently offlinesoon7x7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2036 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 10):
Modern terrorism in the name of ''Islam'' began as a reaction to decades of harrasment and meddling by the West of Arabs nations, from Iraq to Iran, to Palestine and Saudi Arabia, and on and on.

The West needs to own up to that fact.


Perhaps the East should face that fact as the Middle east was happy to entertain the west's desire for oil, the middle East has reaped decades of benefits from US oil $$$. The fact that some in the East have an issue with that, apparently is too bad. "Write your congressman"...Many in the West have an issue with with the influx of Muslim communities here in the states while trying to inject Sharia law into western fabric. With no trickle down affluence in the middle east region it is clear to see why Islam is the only aspect of life that is embraced. I feel sorry for a society that only dreams of death when in fact their is so much to live for while one is alive. As Bin Laden quoted two months ago..."True believers of Islam live to die, while westerners die to live"...Quite a profound statement if you ask me and true evidence the two will never see eye to eye...


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40066 posts, RR: 74
Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2028 times:

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 15):
Perhaps the East should face that fact as the Middle east was happy to entertain the west's desire for oil, the middle East has reaped decades of benefits from US oil $$$. The fact that some in the East have an issue with that, apparently is too bad. "Write your congressman"...Many in the West have an issue with with the influx of Muslim communities here in the states while trying to inject Sharia law into western fabric. With no trickle down affluence in the middle east region it is clear to see why Islam is the only aspect of life that is embraced. I feel sorry for a society that only dreams of death when in fact their is so much to live for while one is alive. As Bin Laden quoted two months ago..."True believers of Islam live to die, while westerners die to live"...Quite a profound statement if you ask me and true evidence the two will never see eye to eye...


  
I doubt the oil barons that own private 747SPs, and palaces in Dubai are complaining about influence from the west.

The west has 'meddled' throughout Asia, Africa and South America and I don't see the Buddhist and Christians from those parts of the world terrorizing the west.
Hell the US dropped the bomb on Hiroshima. That was far more damaging than anything done by the west in the Middle East. I don't see the Japanese bombing aircraft, buildings and demanding Japanese law in the countries they move to.
Why should the Muslims get a free pass?



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3772 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1996 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 4):
From what I read, he only invaded northern Africa to be able to invade Italy and was meant to be a staging point only.

This sentence makes no sense what so ever. Is it possible to have it clarified?

Cheers
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40066 posts, RR: 74
Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1993 times:

Quoting Doona (Reply 17):
This sentence makes no sense what so ever. Is it possible to have it clarified?


Actually it makes perfect sense, since it was prefaced with; "From what I read". Thus not stating this as a fact. Just simply pointing out something that I read.
There are thousands of books and website about World War Two.
If you know more about this aspect on World War Two, tell us about it rather than attacking another member.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14139 posts, RR: 63
Reply 19, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1979 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
Why? They're poor. They've admitted this and we know this. When it comes to funds, they have nothing. Oh, some heroin money here and some government money there, but when compared to even the military of a modest-sized first-world country like France, AQ are pitifully underfunded. They're desperate. They're envious of us and our lifestyle. They've all but admitted it. Except they speak of "decadence." That must never be allowed. And yet this is the culture that gave us hashish, hookahs, and belly dancers. They hate freedom. They want a Muslim Middle-East and they want the West out of it. They blame us for their wars (and in many cases we are actually responsible), their famines (ditto), their industrial accidents (ditto), their loss of culture (ditto) and eventually we are the Great Satan.

The 9/11 attackers came all out of wealthy families, who could afford to send their sons to Europe to university.
Similarly ammong the communist terrorists of the 1970s RAF (Red Army Faction, better knows as the Baader-Meinhof gang), there was only one token proletarian. The rest were disgrunteled intellectuals of wealthy backgrounds. None of them ever worked in a factory, but they claimed to represent the workers of the world.

Terrorism is a tactic, not a goal by itself (except for some in the bottom ranks, who enjoy wreaking havoc). Even with the suicidical Islamists, you´ll find that there are some people in the background (usually older men with long beards), who do everything to stay alive, who let others do the dirty and risky work and who make sure that they are going to be part of the new leadership when their revolution comes through.
Terrorism as a tactic is being used by political minorities, who know that they are a minority, to force the majority to follow their rule. As such terrorism is highly anti-democratic.
The communist RAF tried by attacking high profile representants of German politics, judiciary and business to force the government to turn into a fascist police state, which then would cause the population to rebell against this police state, with the terrorists being the revolutionary avantgarde and leadership. This didn´t work out, since
a) the terrorists and their political point of view had almost no support among the population, and
b) because the German government REFUSED to turn the country into a police state, instead using existing laws to itit´s fullest (thanks to chancellor Helmuth Schmidt, who refused to give in to the rightwings around Franz-Joseph Strauss, who demanded that the German police should e.g. execute imprisoned terrorists and sympathizers as hostages until hostages taken by the terrorists were released).

Similarly nationalist terrorist groups like the Basque ETA or the Irish PIRA had never a majority support even in their own communities, mainly because they also wanted to introduce communist ideas, like nationalising businesses. E.g. most Basques with nationalist ideas tended to vote for moderate nationalist parties, which were in favour of autonomy and eventual independence through negotiations, not armed combat, and which realise that the idea of a Greater Basque country incorporating the Spanish Basque areas, theFrench Basque areas and the neighbouring Spanish proving Navarra (which used to be Basque hundreds of years ago, but where the population today identifies with Spain) are illusory. Last election in the Spanish Basque country actually showed a large majority for the moderate Spanish socialists, who want to keep Spain together (with cultural and regional autonomy for the regions with minority cultures and languages, like Catalonia, the Basque country, Galicia and Andalusia).

The normal argument by supporters of terrorist groups against those who critizise them is that one can only critizise them if one is fighting himself, but then internal critizism of the leadership is considered treason. Outside critzism is not accepted.

Jan


User currently offlineJJJ From Spain, joined May 2006, 1889 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1969 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
They hate freedom. They want a Muslim Middle-East and they want the West out of it. They blame us for their wars (and in many cases we are actually responsible), their famines (ditto), their industrial accidents (ditto), their loss of culture (ditto) and eventually we are the Great Satan.

That's pretty much it.

There was a time when the middle east was going the western way. The urban elites and middle-class were pretty much westernized, religion was losing ground to secularism, nationalism, communism, feminism, etc. and other conceptions. People forgot their Arab and Muslim background and started to think in terms of their own country borders in a more western way.

Then two things happened: oil and Israel. Suddenly they learned that the west (and the Soviet Union) had absolutely no qualms on propping up corrupt dictators as long as they let them have cheap oil, and had no problem displacing thousands of Arab brethren to make room for mostly European Jews.

People saw how the oil riches were going either to the west or to corrupt and despotic tyrants, they were being left behind, they had been used and abused and then Israel gave them an excuse to unite.

That's why, instead of blaming their own corrupt leaders (mostly propped by western powers) they blamed the West. We have seen a return to religion, a return to traditional ways as the western lifestyle failed them.

Every middle-eastern chieftain since then invariably will blame the west for whatever goes wrong, and that creates a culture of violence with the predictable results.


User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1965 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
What do they want?

For the world to leave them alone, their countries alone. To stop things like reading, the internet, television, cell phones from entering their part of the world. And when they visit our part of the world - we need to change to observe their rules/ laws.

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
What are their goals?

To make us afraid and fearful. To make us change our sinful way of life.

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
Do they think they can win?

Have they made us change airport security since 9/11? Have they made us fearful of our neighbors and strangers?

When those happen - they have won.


User currently offlineQuokka From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1949 times:

Quoting JJJ (Reply 20):
That's why, instead of blaming their own corrupt leaders (mostly propped by western powers) they blamed the West


This is partly true but not completely. There have been several groups involved in attempts to challenge leaders seen as corrupt, but these have been largely ineffectual. Sayyid Qutb was hanged for his advocating violent struggle against the regime of Nassar. The most notable successful outrage was the assassination of Anwar Sadat. While some groups that formerly advocated violence have renounced it and tried to work within the limits of their societies (the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt for example) others convinced themselves that they could only succeed by extending the struggle to those who support the leaders - i.e. the West.

The fact that terrorist Jihadis continue to exist is not a reflection of widespread support as some suggest. They remain isolated and on the margins, not just through repression and the work of intelligence agencies, but because traditionally the ulema have held the view that jihad is a collective responsibility and defensive in nature. Qutb was one of the main advocates of the notion of jihad being a personal and continuous responsibility - it is his ideas that inspire the likes of Osama bin Laden. Fortunately his ideas are still those of a very small minority.


User currently offlineMudboy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1167 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1937 times:

One would think that the goal would be to inflict so much fear in their enemies, that the victims of terror, would force their governments to change their actions or policies, against those that have inflicted the terror.

User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5743 posts, RR: 19
Reply 24, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1913 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 19):
a) the terrorists and their political point of view had almost no support among the population

No support among population for thier political view? Not even among the left-leaning "1968ers" intellectuals like Böll or Sartre and among students in particular?

A remarkable poll is conducted in Germany about this time (summer of 1971). One in four Germans express “a certain sympathy” for the Baader-Meinhof Gang, and fully 20 percent of the population indicate that they might be willing to give some form of illegal support to the gang—a bed for the night, money, food—if one of the gang members showed up at their front stoop.

http://www.baader-meinhof.com/gunspeaks/gunchaptercapsules.html


25 MD11Engineer : I give you an example: When I was a boy, we had a neighbour, a university student in her early 20s back then, who was a member of one of the communis
26 Quokka : That terror was the response to a failure to make links between their ideology and the real, actual, day to day concerns of ordinary working people i
27 charlienorth : They just want to be loved...it's simple, they're victims they've lived in poor conditions, been poor and nobody listens to them, go out find a terror
28 Post contains images Quokka : That is funny and at the same time true when it relates to people from a comfortable middle to upper class background. In the West and the US if peop
29 Post contains links Slider : Well, you’re correct in using the term ideology, but in the context of Islamic terrorism, there is no separation between political and religious, n
30 MD11Engineer : We had the same issue with those who bombed abortion clinics in the name of Christian faith. As was Christiantiy back then (until the period of enlig
31 777236ER : Let's consider my local example. A bunch of hot-headed people shot an innocent man to death on the tube. Their organisation then lied, altered photos
32 PPVRA : I would add that this isn't just true of the US policies, but of all western policies towards that region.
33 Quokka : Funnily enough, that is exactly what Marx argued. The way forward for Jews to escape discrimination as Jews was to modernise and to abandon Judaism.
34 golfradio : Sorry, the zero was not invented by the Muslims. It was invented by Arybhatta, an Indian astronomer.
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