thegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2273 posts, RR: 3 Posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2668 times:
For the last 18 months, Dan Crews has been waging a battle to die, one that he is losing.
For the last 24 years -- since he was paralyzed at age 3 in a car accident -- Crews has been a quadriplegic, able to speak and eat, but not breathe on his own.
"Just imagine having your arms and legs strapped down 24 hours a day, seven days a week and not being able to do anything about it and not going anywhere," said the 27-year-old, who lives with his mother in Antioch, Ill.
"I have no friends," Crews told ABC News. "I have no education. No education prospects. No job prospects. I have no love prospects. All I want is to no longer live like this."
The Supreme Court ruled a decade ago that a person can refuse medical treatment -- provided they are competent. And that is the biggest hurdle for Crews.
The head psychiatrist at Froedtert Hospital in Wauwatosa, where Crews has received most of his treatment since he was airlifted from the accident, says he is depressed and that overrides his ability to make a life or death decision.
The hospital did not return calls for comment, but medical records obtained by the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel revealed that psychiatrists and mental health professionals have ruled Crews is depressed and must be treated before they will agree to such an irrevocable step.
Crews said he is not depressed -- "no more than the average person in my position." http://abcnews.go.com/Health/quadrip...story?id=12274720&cid=ESPNheadline
I have to agree. I would want to kill myself after being basically a vegetable after just a year.
It's his life. If he wants to end it sooner then by all means, go ahead. No one else should have a say on it other than himself.
What baffles me is this:
Quoting thegreatRDU (Thread starter): mental health professionals have ruled Crews is depressed and must be treated before they will agree to such an irrevocable step.
Just how the heck do you treat someone like this!?!? It's impossible. He has no way of getting a social life, ever. I don't know of any treatment that allows you to stay locked up doing nothing. Drowning him in antidepressants won't do anything either.
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5297 posts, RR: 47 Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2557 times:
Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 1): Just how the heck do you treat someone like this!?!? It's impossible. He has no way of getting a social life, ever. I don't know of any treatment that allows you to stay locked up doing nothing. Drowning him in antidepressants won't do anything either.
Well, think of it this way. You've probably known many people that have at one point been depressed and wanted to kill themselves, and if it was up to them at that very moment, they would have. But they had some cooling down and are glad they didn't. I think what they are saying is that he is depressed and don't want them to make the decision while he is in the depression because he might be thinking differently than normal. Who knows. Terrible, I feel bad for the guy
Maverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 4744 posts, RR: 6 Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2545 times:
How long has this guy wanted to end his life for? It looks like this decision is relatively recent. If that is indeed the case, then I don't blame the doctors one bit for stalling. There are various legal consequences for them if they don't take the time to make sure he's not merely depressed, especially if he had shown zero interest before.
DesertJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7673 posts, RR: 18 Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2541 times:
I think this is a case where having somebody with power of attorney (whether it be a family member or otherwise) to advocate on your behalf.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
Aaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 7632 posts, RR: 28 Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2518 times:
Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 1):
Just how the heck do you treat someone like this!?!? It's impossible. He has no way of getting a social life, ever. I don't know of any treatment that allows you to stay locked up doing nothing. Drowning him in antidepressants won't do anything either.
If he weren't depressed, it certainly wouldn't be impossible. There are multiple approaches to depression that don't necessarily require antidepressant treatment. Until they've tried CBT, change of scenery, hobby stimulation, and other activities, there is no reason to write him off already.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 3): There are various legal consequences for them if they don't take the time to make sure he's not merely depressed, especially if he had shown zero interest before.
Exactly. They are bound by their professional ethical requirements to ensure he is in a psychiatrically stable frame of mind before doing any kind of medical decisionmaking.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
Flighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 7435 posts, RR: 2 Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2506 times:
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 5): They are bound by their professional ethical requirements to ensure he is in a psychiatrically stable frame of mind before doing any kind of medical decisionmaking.
Well... it's a catch-22. Someone who does not want to live, is by many definitions mentally ill. No one could be allowed to intentionally die according to that standard.
Aaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 7632 posts, RR: 28 Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2453 times:
Quoting Flighty (Reply 6): Someone who does not want to live, is by many definitions mentally ill. No one could be allowed to intentionally die according to that standard.
Yes but there are many shades to the grey you describe. Big difference between being totally lucid and mentally competent while sitting in a hospital bed hooked up to machines after hearing a negative diagnosis, and being sick and tired of bad luck and/or financial troubles pondering going over the side of a bridge.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
Fly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2416 times:
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 7):
Yes but there are many shades to the grey you describe. Big difference between being totally lucid and mentally competent while sitting in a hospital bed hooked up to machines after hearing a negative diagnosis, and being sick and tired of bad luck and/or financial troubles pondering going over the side of a bridge.
I think he has a legitimate excuse. And just how could somebody possibly find happiness after laying in bed for 24 continuous years? Even if you have 10 naked supermodels lying next to you during that whole time, it's not like you can do anything with them anyways.
ltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12331 posts, RR: 12 Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2409 times:
Situations like this show a great conflict - that our ability to save and prolong life exceeds the ability for someone to have a reasonable quality of normal life. One reason to not allow someone to make the choice to end life is that one could have emotional pressures put on them by family members and those facing the financial costs of his very expensive life care, including the local hospital as well as the State and Federal governments. This is one of the major allegations made by some against the Federal Health Care Reform, that 'death panels' could make life ending decisions as to such persons due to the costs of care to such persons.
WarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 6492 posts, RR: 8 Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2364 times:
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 9): Situations like this show a great conflict - that our ability to save and prolong life exceeds the ability for someone to have a reasonable quality of normal life.
A wise statement to that point. How can anyone hope to know what this poor person is going through? How can anyone speak for him, including his parents and family? Just think of his quality of life for 24 years. He was royally screwed when he survived to exist as he has for so long. I just love people who would save him to exist for many more years tied to machines. Let the poor man go. He has the right to choose.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
Quokka From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2357 times:
Very sad situation indeed.
Last year a man in Western Australia was forced to go all the way to the Supreme Court before he could be granted his wish to refuse treatment.
On the one hand there were the interests of the person who wanted control over his own life and body. On the other the implications for the care facility in an environment where "assisted suicide" is unlawful.
This is a very tricky ethical situation. On one hand, we have an ethical responsibility to provide some quality of life to the person by caring for them. on the other hand, we have a responsibility to keep them alive too.
The only way it'll be solved is by getting the legal people involved.
IMissPiedmont From United States of America, joined May 2001, 6203 posts, RR: 43 Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2188 times:
All of the above are valid points. But the 2 most important are the fact that it's his life and no matter what the circumstance he should be allowed to end it, even if he's "just" depressed vs the hospital rules that would not allow their participation. He should get someone to take him from the hospital, take him out to the woods and put a bullet in his head, problem solved.
What is it with all the "is there a possibilty airline X will.." threads? The answer it'll is possible.
iairallie From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2152 times:
I think all these QOL arguments are a crock. Being a quadraplegic places serious trials in your life but it isn't a bar on having a quality enjoyable life. The reasons he cites for wanting to die are BS he can get an education, he can get a job he can even find companionship. While his body is damaged there is nothing wrong with his brain and as long as your brain works you can use it to learn, work, & make the world a better place. I know a guy about the same age as this one that is quadraplegic he uses adaptive technology to learn & work online. He has friends and a social life. Yes he will allways have to live in a skilled nursing facility but there is no reason why he cannot make friends and have a social life and make a contribution to society.
thegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2273 posts, RR: 3 Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2072 times:
Quoting iairallie (Reply 15): Being a quadraplegic places serious trials in your life but it isn't a bar on having a quality enjoyable life.
For this guy it is...grant him his wish and set him free...
futurepilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2018 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2044 times:
I had Guillian Barre syndrome when I was in the 8th grade. It was brought on by an allergic reaction. For one whole week I knew what it was like to be a vegetable. I couldn't walk, I could barely move my limbs, it was a neurological disease that to this day I'm still thankful that my doctors were able to get me the antibiotics before It got any worse. To this day, anytime a doctor looks through my files and sees that I survived that disease without major neurological damage, they tell me how lucky I am.
Quoting iairallie (Reply 15): I think all these QOL arguments are a crock. Being a quadraplegic places serious trials in your life but it isn't a bar on having a quality enjoyable life. The reasons he cites for wanting to die are BS he can get an education, he can get a job he can even find companionship. While his body is damaged there is nothing wrong with his brain and as long as your brain works you can use it to learn, work, & make the world a better place. I know a guy about the same age as this one that is quadraplegic he uses adaptive technology to learn & work online. He has friends and a social life. Yes he will allways have to live in a skilled nursing facility but there is no reason why he cannot make friends and have a social life and make a contribution to society.
Dude you don't know that. Would you want to be tied down for the last 24 years, not being able to do ANYTHING? Think about that for a sec. What companionship? I hate to sound so awful but who in the world would date this guy? Let's be realistic. What is he gonna do with an education? He's been a veg for 24 years and you can't imagine the pain of not being able to move for 1 day (I have) let alone 24 YEARS. The best he can hope for at this point is that advances in science will one day allow him to regain use of his limbs
This is an extremely sad situation and If I were him, I would wanna die too. Someone who commented on the story on abcnews.com stated that the main reason why they don't want him to die is money. The longer he's alive, the more money that is made by the psychiatrist, the more money he gets to pay for medications, home care etc. His family members should realize that they're doing him a favor by putting him out of his misery.
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
Fly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2039 times:
Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 17):
Dude you don't know that. Would you want to be tied down for the last 24 years, not being able to do ANYTHING? Think about that for a sec. What companionship? I hate to sound so awful but who in the world would date this guy? Let's be realistic. What is he gonna do with an education? He's been a veg for 24 years and you can't imagine the pain of not being able to move for 1 day (I have) let alone 24 YEARS.
Agreed 1000000%
Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 17): The best he can hope for at this point is that advances in science will one day allow him to regain use of his limbs
Even with all the advances in stem cell research lately, he'd have to be very lucky if they discover a cure for his condition before he reaches 50.
Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 17): Someone who commented on the story on abcnews.com stated that the main reason why they don't want him to die is money.
Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 17): Would you want to be tied down for the last 24 years, not being able to do ANYTHING?
Of course you wouldn't want that but I disagree that you can't do anything. His brain is functioning there is adaptive technology that allows one to use the internet & computers. He can think, speak, see, hear. He can still enjoy music, literature. Please tell me what about his condition prevents him from being able to get an education which is one of his complaints? What prevents him from finding employment. I read an article about a quad who started his own business and is more sucessful than most able bodied persons. I know a quadraplegic man same age as this one who is gainfully employed. There are options sure you have to be creative in finding employment but there are options.
Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 17): What companionship? I hate to sound so awful but who in the world would date this guy?
There are women who are also in his shoes maybe he could start there. The quadraplegic guy I know does online dating and actually goes on dates with all kinds of women.
futurepilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2018 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 1996 times:
Quoting iairallie (Reply 19): Of course you wouldn't want that but I disagree that you can't do anything. His brain is functioning there is adaptive technology that allows one to use the internet & computers. He can think, speak, see, hear. He can still enjoy music, literature. Please tell me what about his condition prevents him from being able to get an education which is one of his complaints? What prevents him from finding employment. I read an article about a quad who started his own business and is more sucessful than most able bodied persons. I know a quadraplegic man same age as this one who is gainfully employed. There are options sure you have to be creative in finding employment but there are options.
I don't even know where to start. Let's see, should he want to be put out of his misery, or should he spend thousands of dollars on software equipment and computers so that he can listen to music on the internet? Have you even considered that maybe he doesn't want that. Literature? That sounds boring to me and i'm able bodied. What prevents him from finding employment is the fact that he can't even breath on his own. It doesn't matter how many options you think there are for him, the fact is, he's been living in a world of movement for 24 years and not being able to do so is the most frustrating thing in the world.
Quoting iairallie (Reply 19): There are women who are also in his shoes maybe he could start there. The quadraplegic guy I know does online dating and actually goes on dates with all kinds of women.
Now you're being just a little too optimistic.
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
What is optimistic about it. I actually know a guy who is a quad and dates using an online dating site. He goes out with friends and holds a job.
Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 20): Let's see, should he want to be put out of his misery, or should he spend thousands of dollars on software equipment and computers so that he can listen to music on the internet? Have you even considered that maybe he doesn't want that. Literature? That sounds boring to me and i'm able bodied.
I love to read it doesn't really suprise me that you don't. If there were tools available to make my life better it would be worth that and more.
futurepilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2018 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1977 times:
Quoting iairallie (Reply 21):
I love to read it doesn't really suprise me that you don't. If there were tools available to make my life better it would be worth that and more.
The fact is, if he wanted literature and music and job opportunities and all the other pretty butterfly things you included, rather than death, he would have asked for it. You shouldn't claim that he would like something because you like it or because you know someone in a similar situation who excels at everything like superman, therefore, this individual should be the same. There should be assisted euthanasia for people like this who wants it.
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16814 posts, RR: 57 Reply 23, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1956 times:
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 5):
If he weren't depressed, it certainly wouldn't be impossible. There are multiple approaches to depression that don't necessarily require antidepressant treatment. Until they've tried CBT, change of scenery, hobby stimulation, and other activities, there is no reason to write him off already.
This keeps driving me nuts. I know that if I ever were a quadruplegic, I would want the plug pulled. In fact, it's in my living will that I, as an active adult who is in sound mind, do not want to be kept alive if I am not able to breathe for myself in the long term.
kiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8435 posts, RR: 15 Reply 24, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1941 times:
Quoting iairallie (Reply 15): I think all these QOL arguments are a crock. Being a quadraplegic places serious trials in your life but it isn't a bar on having a quality enjoyable life. The reasons he cites for wanting to die are BS he can get an education, he can get a job he can even find companionship. While his body is damaged there is nothing wrong with his brain and as long as your brain works you can use it to learn, work, & make the world a better place. I know a guy about the same age as this one that is quadraplegic he uses adaptive technology to learn & work online. He has friends and a social life. Yes he will allways have to live in a skilled nursing facility but there is no reason why he cannot make friends and have a social life and make a contribution to society.
I am stunned at the arrogance of your post , how dare you dismiss this mans feelings about his own life as "a crock" and deride his reasons for wanting to be allowed to die as "BS" . He is the only person who is in a position to judge whether or not his life is bearable and he clearly does not find it bearable , and I doubt that patronising platitudes from holier-than-thou people are going to significantly change that for him.
Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
25 Fly2HMO: What bugs me even more is that people think they have a right to control or have a say in other people's lives. If this guy want's to kill himself, t
26 iairallie: Colby is not a superman he is just a guy who had a traumatic accident and is making the most of his life. Quadreplegia does not by default = a worthl
27 kiwiandrew: Please quote even a single of instance of someone in this thread saying that being a quadriplegic automatically means you have no hope of any quality
28 MSPNWA: The first name that came to mind after reading the article was Joni Eareckson Tada. This man could be successful in life and make himself an inspirati
29 Quokka: It is indeed a funny world where societies see nothing wrong with taking other people's lives, in fact, in some circumstances it is considered praise
30 futurepilot16: I NEVER said such a thing. I just merely said that if this man feels as though he has no purpose in life, you shouldn't belittle his feelings and tre
31 iairallie: I don't know that he wants to spend the "rest of his life in a classroom" HOWEVER the guy cites as one of his reasons for wanting to die that he is i
32 futurepilot16: He never said that. Did you read the article? He says he has no education, he never says he is incapable of getting one. In the article he says he ha
33 iairallie: The guy is depressed he is not capable of making an informed decision about withdrawing life support. ALL of the following strongly imply it ... ...C
34 Aaron747: The one time I was what would probably be called clinically depressed, I was down enough that I even lost interest in being around airplanes. Never i
35 BAKJet: I think it's stupid to say that he, or any other person, who wants to end his or her life and has the legal right to do so due a medical condition mus
36 Quokka: In the opinion of the Head Psychiatrist at the hospital. However, different psychiatrists may very well offer different opinions. Psychiatrists have
37 CXB77L: Then that person who fired the gun would be charged with murder. I don't think you'd get someone willingly commit murder under any circumstances. But
38 BMI727: In this case it is important to make the distinction between actively taking action to kill oneself and simply refusing treatment which results in de
39 Maverick623: Nobody here (nor even our guy) says it does. But according to you, the very decision to end his treatment proves he's depressed and can't make that d
40 Fly2HMO: I think everybody is overlooking the fact that this isn't the first time he's said this. It's only the first time the press has gotten word of it. An
41 san747: I'm not attacking what you said, but I just want to clarify- do you mean psychology/psychiatry do not work or are generally ineffective?
42 Maverick623: The vast majority of people can be manipulated (for lack of a better word), via medication and counseling (usually both), into changing a certain tra
43 san747: OK, I just asked because I'm actually working on my degree in Psychology to eventually become a clinical psychologist, and hopefully a marriage/famil
44 iairallie: prospects = the possibility of future success; "his prospects as a writer are excellent" expectation: belief about (or mental picture of) the future
45 CXB77L: Then that raises the question whether the person's consent was an exercise of his independent free will, as well as whether the person is of sound mi
46 ltbewr: Circumstances like this are a good reason to have a 'Living Will' or a Medical Directive if an adult or by a parent as to their child or a marriage or
47 kiwiandrew: How exactly is this young man supposed to throw himself of a cliff ? By necessity his wish to be permitted to die is going to involve others as he la
48 BAKJet: I'm well aware of the fact that people make directives to refuse medical treatment in anticipation of possible future events. But, wouldn't knowing t
49 cpd: I think similarly. If I'm seriously injured - I don't want to be kept on life support. Just let me go and be done with it. Being in vegetative state
50 kiwiandrew: While I agree that I would also expect to have the right to determine my own future please don't play into the hands of some on this forum by confusi
51 cpd: And at the same time, if I'm unable to fend for myself in any way whatsoever, I don't want to be left like that. And besides, I don't think anyone wou
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