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USMC, Usaf Fighting Pentagon Dadt Report  
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8163 posts, RR: 26
Posted (3 years 10 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2922 times:

Ugh, what *is* it with these guys? Man up and join 2010 already. They have surveyed service members and there is clearly no majority issue here. I just read these comments and can't begin to wade through the parade of BS...my eyes rolled from here to the mainland coast.

“Based on what I know about the very tough fight on the ground in Afghanistan, the almost singular focus of our combat forces as they train up and deploy into theater, the necessary tightly woven culture of those combat forces that we are asking so much of at this time and finally the direct feedback from the survey, my recommendation is that we should not implement repeal at this time,” Amos said in prepared testimony for the Senate Armed Services Committee.

Did Gen. Amos and Gates read the same survey?? Yes, USMC members expressed the most opposition at 40-something %, but that's still not a majority. Did he somehow gloss over the part about the ~90% who had served with people they knew to be gay that were either neutral or reported no problems in their unit cohesion? It just boggles the mind. People want to serve their country - f*cking let them do it already without impediment.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1210/45917.html


If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
58 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (3 years 10 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2906 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
People want to serve their country - f*cking let them do it already without impediment.

Seriously. As if they don't have enough problems recruiting people already. Granted, if they repeal this, it's not like people from the LGBT community will come in stampedes looking to serve, but it surely must boost recruitment in one way or another.


User currently offlineMattRB From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1624 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (3 years 10 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2856 times:

Quoting Gen. Amos (Thread starter):
Based on what I know about the very tough fight on the ground in Afghanistan, the almost singular focus of our combat forces as they train up and deploy into theater, the necessary tightly woven culture of those combat forces that we are asking so much of at this time and finally the direct feedback from the survey, my recommendation is that we should not implement repeal at this time,” Amos said in prepared testimony for the Senate Armed Services Committee.

So, if DADT is repealed, the grunts are going to be more worried about dropping the soap in the shower and its potential consequences rather than the Taliban guys raining mortars and deploying IEDs around them?



Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
User currently offlineual777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1556 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (3 years 10 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2845 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):

Did Gen. Amos and Gates read the same survey?? Yes, USMC members expressed the most opposition at 40-something %, but that's still not a majority. Did he somehow gloss over the part about the ~90% who had served with people they knew to be gay that were either neutral or reported no problems in their unit cohesion? It just boggles the mind. People want to serve their country - f*cking let them do it already without impediment.

I heard that Marine opposition was about 60%. I do not think the Marine Corps is ready for this having personally been to Parris Island. Each branch has it's own culture and the USMC culture is very..mmmm...not-gay friendly. In an environment where you must refer to yourself and others as "this recruit" and "that recruit" and are not allowed to say "I", "he" "she", "you" etc. and men and women are trained separately, allowing openly gay recruits could create issues. On Parris Island, just wearing the BCGs (Birth Control Glasses) can get you a lot of extra attention from the DIs that you don't want.

It is also somewhat common for recruits to be struck by DIs and called a vulgar symphony of words (many of which are gay-related).

So if you are gay and want to serve in the Corps...fine. Just keep it to yourself.



It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8296 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (3 years 10 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2833 times:

Quoting ual777 (Reply 3):
I heard that Marine opposition was about 60%.

That leaves about 40% with a brain.  

I can understand the Marines being a bit backward, but the USAF? After all the screwing around they have done with the tanker program one would think that they would be oblivious to how their personnel were screwing around.


User currently offlineAlias1024 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2763 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (3 years 10 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2826 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 4):
I can understand the Marines being a bit backward, but the USAF?

This is the same USAF that's repeatedly been in trouble for cadets having religion shoved down their throats at the Air Force Academy.



It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2721 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (3 years 10 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2808 times:

Quoting ual777 (Reply 3):
I heard that Marine opposition was about 60%.

Where, on Fox News? "Some people are saying...", "I heard", "A lot of people think..".

The report is online. No taste for facts?

You identify USMC as the most negative and here are their most negative results:

"Question 75b. If Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell is repealed and you are working with a Service member in your immediate unit who has said he or she is gay or lesbian, how, if at all, would it affect your immediate unit’s readiness?"

Marine Corps Total 70% Neutral or Positive

Marine Combat 68.5% Neutral or Positive

"Question 68a. If Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell is repealed and you are working with a Service member in your immediate unit who has said he or she is gay or lesbian, how, if at all, would it affect... How Service members in your immediate unit work together to get the job done?"

Marine Corps Total 57.2% Neutral or Positive

Marine Combat 43% Neutral or Positive

From the report: "First and foremost, successful implementation of a repeal of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell requires strong leadership, a clear message, and proactive training and education. Throughout our engagements with the force, we heard from general and flag officers and senior enlisted leaders in all the Services, including those strongly opposed to changing the law and policy, words to the effect of “If the law changes, we can do this; just give us the tools to communicate a clear message.” Further, leaders must demonstrate to Service members that they are committed to implementing this change, and that the leaders expect Service members to adapt as well. Messages like the one from the Commandant of the Marine Corps, that if repeal comes the Marines will “get in step and do it smartly,”344 must continue...."



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineual777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1556 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (3 years 10 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2785 times:

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 6):

Marine Combat 43% Neutral or Positive
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 6):


Marine Combat 68.5% Neutral or Positive

Almost 60% on the second question. Further, I wonder what the numbers are for only positive? There are lies, damn lies, and then there are statistics.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 4):

That leaves about 40% with a brain.

I can understand the Marines being a bit backward, but the USAF? After all the screwing around they have done with the tanker program one would think that they would be oblivious to how their personnel were screwing around.

40% with a brain? Did you serve in the USMC? What qualifies you to make that statement?



It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2721 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (3 years 10 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2780 times:

Quoting ual777 (Reply 7):

Almost 60% on the second question. Further, I wonder what the numbers are for only positive? There are lies, damn lies, and then there are statistics.

You join a discussion about a statistical survey, quote statistics to support (you suppose) your point, then call statistics "lies"....   



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineual777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1556 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (3 years 10 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2778 times:

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 8):

You join a discussion about a statistical survey, quote statistics to support (you suppose) your point, then call statistics "lies"....

No, my point was that neutral and positive were lumped together. Having them separated gives a better overall view of the survey.



It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
User currently offlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5032 posts, RR: 44
Reply 10, posted (3 years 10 months 2 days ago) and read 2768 times:

Quoting ual777 (Reply 7):
40% with a brain? Did you serve in the USMC? What qualifies you to make that statement?

...being in possession of said brain?

This is 2010. Most Western countries have openly gay soldiers serving, with no major issues. There's no reason the US would be radically different.

Don't feel 'comfortable' around a gay person? That's YOUR fault, not the gay person's. So it's up to you to fix it, the gays who want to serve shouldn't be punished for your insecurity.


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8163 posts, RR: 26
Reply 11, posted (3 years 10 months 2 days ago) and read 2748 times:

Quoting ual777 (Reply 7):
Almost 60% on the second question. Further, I wonder what the numbers are for only positive?

Not significant as neutral clearly implies 'not negative'. For the purposes of the study the responses, as reported, are sufficient. The data was likely broken down internally but this is how it's being reported for brevity.

Also it would seem the USMC combat respondents are confused about their own thinking on the matter since ~60% seem to have concerns about 'getting the job done' yet ~70% say unit readiness would be unaffected. Not very logical.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 3):
So if you are gay and want to serve in the Corps...fine. Just keep it to yourself.

Sorry, but that's USMC supremacy mindset nonsense. If one is committed to the Corps, they should care about what's good for the Corps, not what their personal feelings or opinions on other members of the Corps may or may not be. What the hell is the point of unit cohesion then? This is the same crap people pulled when they were integrating blacks. There are a lot of things that may be uncomfortable or undesirable to an individual in the military - but if you want in, you'll deal with it. Everyone should have their fair shot without having to hide. Period.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21654 posts, RR: 55
Reply 12, posted (3 years 10 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2663 times:

Quoting ual777 (Reply 9):
No, my point was that neutral and positive were lumped together. Having them separated gives a better overall view of the survey.

In this case, it makes sense to lump them together, since for all intents and purposes, if you don't have an opinion one way or the other on repealing DADT, it's as good as a vote in favor. The biggest argument against it is that it would ruin unit cohesion, so if you get a lot of people who don't really care, you defeat that argument just the same.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineual777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1556 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (3 years 10 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2652 times:

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 10):

...being in possession of said brain?

This is 2010. Most Western countries have openly gay soldiers serving, with no major issues. There's no reason the US would be radically different.

Don't feel 'comfortable' around a gay person? That's YOUR fault, not the gay person's. So it's up to you to fix it, the gays who want to serve shouldn't be punished for your insecurity.

You are missing the point. USMC culture is not open towards gays. I can give examples but it involves some "colorful" qoutations. Further, why should Marines have to shower in the nude with gays? Should women shower with the men then?

In addition, the Marine Corps is not like most other western countries. It is about 25% percent the size of the army including reserves, but has taken proportionally higher casualties than any other branch in Iraq. People join the Army for bonuses. People join the Marines to fight.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 11):

Sorry, but that's USMC supremacy mindset nonsense. If one is committed to the Corps, they should care about what's good for the Corps, not what their personal feelings or opinions on other members of the Corps may or may not be. What the hell is the point of unit cohesion then? This is the same crap people pulled when they were integrating blacks. There are a lot of things that may be uncomfortable or undesirable to an individual in the military - but if you want in, you'll deal with it. Everyone should have their fair shot without having to hide. Period.

So, the VAST (probably over 98%) majority of Marines should just suck it up so some new gay recruit feels comfortable and welcome? This isn't summer camp; its the Marine Corps. Different is bad and having to train under high amounts of stress knowing that some guy could be checking you out, and is "different" is bad for the Corps.

The larger question is what is gay? A preference? A disease? a medical condition? what is it?



It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21654 posts, RR: 55
Reply 14, posted (3 years 10 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2648 times:

Quoting ual777 (Reply 13):
So, the VAST (probably over 98%) majority of Marines should just suck it up so some new gay recruit feels comfortable and welcome?

Would you mind citing a source for that 98% comment?

Quoting ual777 (Reply 13):
The larger question is what is gay? A preference? A disease? a medical condition? what is it?

None of the above. It's a genetic trait, much like eye or hair color.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineQuokka From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (3 years 10 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2646 times:

Quoting ual777 (Reply 13):
USMC culture is not open towards gays.

So, if the USMC culture is one that is hostile to gays, it should be allowed to continue to be so? The USMC should be allowed to be exempt from any laws prescribing equal treatment? That the juvenile insecurities of those who may be scared that someone might "hit on them" should take precedence over the right of another citizen to enlist and serve?

As you yourself said, it isn't a summer camp. Are we really meant to believe that as shells are raining down, or as men are pinned down by sniper fire, the sole thought going through a Marine's mind is whether his buddy is going to suddenly feel the urge to rape him or invite him out on a date? If that is the case, I would question his priorities and recommend a psychological assessment.


User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5653 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (3 years 10 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2625 times:

Quoting ual777 (Reply 9):
No, my point was that neutral and positive were lumped together

So long as the effect isn't negative, what's the matter?

Quoting ual777 (Reply 3):

It is also somewhat common for recruits to be struck by DIs and called a vulgar symphony of words (many of which are gay-related).

So? Like you said:

Quoting ual777 (Reply 13):
This isn't summer camp; its the Marine Corps.

If someone can't hack it, they don't belong. Period. That includes you, if you can't deal with knowing a gay person is showering next to you. And I can pretty much guarantee that if you were ever in the Corps (or any other branch), you had a gay person in your unit at one time or another.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 3):

So if you are gay and want to serve in the Corps...fine. Just keep it to yourself.

And if you're a gay-hater and want to serve in the Corps, YOU keep it to YOURSELF. You are not special just because you're straight. Suck it up and get it done right or go home. THAT'S the Marine Corps culture.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 13):
People join the Army for bonuses. People join the Marines to fight.

Right.... because the Marines don't give bonuses, and the Army doesn't fight. Are you for real, kid?

Quoting ual777 (Reply 13):
The larger question is what is gay? A preference? A disease? a medical condition? what is it?

I mean, seriously, are you for real? Please tell me there's some hidden satire or irony in that question.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 13):
USMC culture

Is something you obviously know jack sh*t about.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8163 posts, RR: 26
Reply 17, posted (3 years 10 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2625 times:

Quoting ual777 (Reply 13):
Further, why should Marines have to shower in the nude with gays?

Is the average Marine so insecure about his own sexuality that he can't tolerate showering in front of a gay man? Give me a freakin' break. If some dude were checking me out, I'd take it as an ego boost in a world full of uglies. Any less of a reaction just means you're afraid of something which is childish and crude.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 13):
People join the Marines to fight

Wouldn't be any different with a gay guy who signed up...come on now.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 13):
comfortable and welcome?

Nobody's talking about 'comfortable and welcome'. There's nothing comfortable about the Marine Corps. But it's nice to be able to deal with other people you're going to be working with on the level.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 13):
Different is bad and having to train under high amounts of stress knowing that some guy could be checking you out, and is "different" is bad for the Corps.

Wrong attitude for a Marine. All you need to be concerned about as a Marine is whether or not the guy next to you can do their job and save your life if the situation calls for it.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 13):
The larger question is what is gay? A preference? A disease? a medical condition? what is it?

This proves what is at the heart of any opposition to something that otherwise makes total sense: ignorance.

It's unbelievable that people think suddenly having gays serving openly is going to somehow mean games of grab-ass in the shower and men kissing men in the barracks. Do you see the married guys getting heavy with their wives while cavorting all over the base? Hell no. Want to know what gay is?? People living their lives - just like you.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineual777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1556 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (3 years 10 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2600 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 14):

Would you mind citing a source for that 98% comment?

I mean't the 98% percent who weren't gay.

Quoting Mir (Reply 14):

None of the above. It's a genetic trait, much like eye or hair color.
Quoting Quokka (Reply 15):

So, if the USMC culture is one that is hostile to gays, it should be allowed to continue to be so? The USMC should be allowed to be exempt from any laws prescribing equal treatment? That the juvenile insecurities of those who may be scared that someone might "hit on them" should take precedence over the right of another citizen to enlist and serve?

As you yourself said, it isn't a summer camp. Are we really meant to believe that as shells are raining down, or as men are pinned down by sniper fire, the sole thought going through a Marine's mind is whether his buddy is going to suddenly feel the urge to rape him or invite him out on a date? If that is the case, I would question his priorities and recommend a psychological assessment.

This argument is oversimplified. It extends beyond the moment of combat. It extends far before that during the constant training process. It is a distraction, at least to the 58% of combat Marines who answered, and it is a distraction the Corps doesn't need right now. Notice the generals have all said "now is not the time." Not "no, not ever."

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 16):

If someone can't hack it, they don't belong. Period. That includes you, if you can't deal with knowing a gay person is showering next to you. And I can pretty much guarantee that if you were ever in the Corps (or any other branch), you had a gay person in your unit at one time or another.

I can guarantee you I have been and I have the DD-214 to prove it.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 16):

And if you're a gay-hater and want to serve in the Corps, YOU keep it to YOURSELF. You are not special just because you're straight. Suck it up and get it done right or go home. THAT'S the Marine Corps culture.

Are you now insinuating I am a gay hater?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 16):

Right.... because the Marines don't give bonuses, and the Army doesn't fight. Are you for real, kid?

Its metaphorical "kid." Maybe if YOU had been in a branch of the military you would know the Army often offers enlistment bonuses in excess of $60,000 dollars. The largest I ever saw the Corps offer was $5,000. To spell it out for you: A LOT MORE PEOPLE JOIN THE ARMY FOR THE EXTRA MONEY THAN THEY DO JOIN THE MARINES.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 16):

I mean, seriously, are you for real? Please tell me there's some hidden satire or irony in that question.

There is. The whole point of it was how is being "gay" defined? You ask 5 different people you get 5 different answers.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 16):

Is something you obviously know jack sh*t about.

I think you owe me a serious apology. I know enough having been in the Corps and I love the Corps. As for Parris Island, I was "in the back". Now you tell me if you know what I'm talking about. Further, maybe if your reading skills improved, I did not in any post say I did not support it. I said Marine Corps culture didn't. So learn how to read before you tell me I don't know shit about something. I am stunned at your hateful speech regarding an opposing opinion.

Quoting Mir (Reply 12):
The biggest argument against it is that it would ruin unit cohesion, so if you get a lot of people who don't really care, you defeat that argument just the same.

Again, an oversimplified argument. 40% of the Marine Corps is 100,000 Marines. That is a big number and a lot of those Marines in leadership positions have been around since the First Gulf War or Panama. Now, if this could in any way influence their decision not to re-enlist then the Marine Corps loses that valuable experience. I do not care if it is an ignorant opinion or not, but good leadership saves lives on the battlefield.



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 17):

Wrong attitude for a Marine. All you need to be concerned about as a Marine is whether or not the guy next to you can do their job and save your life if the situation calls for it.

Wrong. To quote General Patton:

"An army is a team. It lives, eats, sleeps, fights as a team.
This individuality stuff is a bunch of bullshit."
- General George Patton Jr

In the Marine Corps, different gets noticed and that is bad.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 17):

This proves what is at the heart of any opposition to something that otherwise makes total sense: ignorance.

It's unbelievable that people think suddenly having gays serving openly is going to somehow mean games of grab-ass in the shower and men kissing men in the barracks. Do you see the married guys getting heavy with their wives while cavorting all over the base? Hell no. Want to know what gay is?? People living their lives - just like you.

It was a rhetorical question. The point being from another viewpoint it can be seen the same as any genetic disorder, lifestyle choice (Pacifist), disease (HIV), or general behavioral disorder. That means the military can block it if it so chooses.


I'm sorry if I did not articulate my point well enough, but to lay it out for all of you: I personally do not care if someone is gay or not in the Marine Corps, but a lot of Marines do. Should the rule change? Yes, but not in a time of war that is at a critical juncture.

Are many Marines bigoted against gays? Oh hell yes. However, the Marine Corps and the type of culture it has allows it and it doesn't make these men (or women) bad Marines. I think instead of blanketing the Marine Corps with calls of ignorance and bigotry etc, people here WHO HAVE NEVER EXPERIENCED A DAY IN THE CORPS should listen to the guy testifying with four stars on his shoulder because chances are he knows what he is talking about.

But hey, what do I know? I was only a member of 3rd Battalion, "Killer" Kilo Company, Platoon 3038, MCRD Parris Island.



It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
User currently offlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5032 posts, RR: 44
Reply 19, posted (3 years 10 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2587 times:

Quoting ual777 (Reply 13):
You are missing the point.

No, you are. If the USMC is 'not open to gays', then that's THEIR fault, not that of the gays. And therefore, up to THEM to change, not up to the gay people wanting to serve.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 13):
I can give examples but it involves some "colorful" qoutations.

Along the same lines of the "colorful" quotations that could no doubt be heard in that very same USMC around the time they started thinking about integrating blacks into the armed forces. Ignorance and xenophobia are not excuses.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 13):
Further, why should Marines have to shower in the nude with gays?

They already are. And guess what: they've survived! If you're so insecure about your sexuality that showering with a gay person scares the hell out of you, you are probably not very stable emotionally, and it makes me wonder whether you belong in the USMC in the first place. I have gay colleagues, and I've showered with them. I'm comfortable enough with my own sexuality to not let that bother me in the least. And so are most other people.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 13):
In addition, the Marine Corps is not like most other western countries. It is about 25% percent the size of the army including reserves, but has taken proportionally higher casualties than any other branch in Iraq. People join the Army for bonuses. People join the Marines to fight.

And this has... what exactly to do with gay people?

Quoting ual777 (Reply 18):
I mean't the 98% percent who weren't gay.

Wow, didn't know you represented the straight Marines. What an awfully broad brush to paint with, to assume that all, or even a majority, of straight people would need to do any "sucking it up" to make gay people feel welcome. What incredible arrogance to assume everyone's like you.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 18):
Notice the generals have all said "now is not the time." Not "no, not ever."

"Now is not the time" means "no, not ever". It's called stalling for time. They'll always have an excuse to say that "now is not the time". Pretty much every other western country has taken the step, and they've done so successfully. It's already a crying shame that the country that feels the need to lecture everyone about freedom and equality and shout it off every rooftop blatantly discriminates in its own forces, and that people like you continue to make excuses for it. Your argumentation is probably the exact same that was made in the time of integration of blacks.

Bite the bullet, now. Everyone else has, and they've survived.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 18):
Are you now insinuating I am a gay hater?

Wonder where people could get THAT idea.  
Quoting ual777 (Reply 18):
To spell it out for you: A LOT MORE PEOPLE JOIN THE ARMY FOR THE EXTRA MONEY THAN THEY DO JOIN THE MARINES.

Once again: what's that to do with gays?


User currently offlineual777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1556 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (3 years 10 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2580 times:

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 19):


Wow, didn't know you represented the straight Marines. What an awfully broad brush to paint with, to assume that all, or even a majority, of straight people would need to do any "sucking it up" to make gay people feel welcome. What incredible arrogance to assume everyone's like you.
Quoting ual777 (Reply 18):

Wonder where people could get THAT idea.

You guys really are rediculous. Did you miss the part of my own personal opinion? Unbelievable.



It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
User currently offlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5032 posts, RR: 44
Reply 21, posted (3 years 10 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2568 times:

Quoting ual777 (Reply 20):
You guys really are rediculous. Did you miss the part of my own personal opinion? Unbelievable.

Nope, didn't miss it. I just don't buy it. I can't remember how many times I've seen people defend an ignorant stance under the guise of "it's not me who thinks this, it's the others" in an attempt not to have to take any flak for their remarks. In most cases, it is them who think like that.


User currently offlineual777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1556 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (3 years 10 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2567 times:

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 19):

They already are. And guess what: they've survived! If you're so insecure about your sexuality that showering with a gay person scares the hell out of you, you are probably not very stable emotionally, and it makes me wonder whether you belong in the USMC in the first place. I have gay colleagues, and I've showered with them. I'm comfortable enough with my own sexuality to not let that bother me in the least. And so are most other people.

Again, I am not talking about myself.

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 19):

Along the same lines of the "colorful" quotations that could no doubt be heard in that very same USMC around the time they started thinking about integrating blacks into the armed forces. Ignorance and xenophobia are not excuses.

That was desegregation of the military not integration into the armed forces.

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 19):

No, you are. If the USMC is 'not open to gays', then that's THEIR fault, not that of the gays. And therefore, up to THEM to change, not up to the gay people wanting to serve.

Who says they have to change? If they believe it is not currently in their best interests that is their decision to make.

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 19):


Wow, didn't know you represented the straight Marines. What an awfully broad brush to paint with, to assume that all, or even a majority, of straight people would need to do any "sucking it up" to make gay people feel welcome. What incredible arrogance to assume everyone's like you.

Again, you are misinterpreting my post. I'm merely estimating that 98% percent of Marines are straight. It is incredibly arrogant of you to put words in my mouth.

I will try to break it down for you so you might understand the post (but you probably wont).

Part of what makes the Marines the Marines is how difficult it is. What happens when a DI calls a recruit a "fa**ot", which happens multiple times daily, and he gets called onto the carpet for it?

It changes the whole dynamic of the training and can lower the intensity. That intensity is what makes the Marine Corps a crack combat unit and is critical to the Marine Corps mission. Marines train women and men separately for the same reason. Men can serve in combat arms and women cannot. By its very nature, the physical standards and intensity is higher for men than it is for the women. Before you call me a woman hater, I am not saying a woman is any less of a Marine than a man is but their role is somewhat different.

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 19):

Once again: what's that to do with gays?

The Marine Corps has traditionally been called on to take out "hot spots." Thus, unit cohesion and morale is of VITAL importance to their success. With allowing homosexual recruits will come difficulty. Drill instructors WILL get in trouble, and Marines will get tagged for discrimination. As I stated earlier, the leadership of the Marine Corps probably feels now is not the best time to go through that.



It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
User currently offlineual777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1556 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (3 years 10 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2561 times:

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 21):

Nope, didn't miss it. I just don't buy it. I can't remember how many times I've seen people defend an ignorant stance under the guise of "it's not me who thinks this, it's the others" in an attempt not to have to take any flak for their remarks. In most cases, it is them who think like that.

I am defending the Commandant and the Marine Corps leadership because they know the Marine Corps better than you and better than me and I was a member. These guys have decades of experience and are at the top of an incredibly competitive career field, so I think you should actually listen to their argument and consider it.

Showing up at 3am at PI is like landing on another planet. They verbally abuse you, ridicule you, make your life hell, and yes even hit, punch, and choke you. The recruiters say they don't, but they do.In fact a friend of mine when at PI was punished (along with about 20 others for fighting in the shower) by being made to line up naked heel to toe in a single-file line and simultaneously lean forward and then backward. What happens if someone gets physically "excited" during the process? The thing is, 99% of the time nobody says anything about this type of legal rule-breaking because of the Corps' mentality. They are building warriors and rules are broken sometimes on the road to doing that. As bad as that is, it hardens the recruits and builds morale.

I have personally seen a recruit's face pushed into a puddle of his own urine by the boot of a DI, numerous recruits punched (yes sometimes in the face or head and this one includes myself), made to cry (this one doesn't include me), claim they want to kill themselves, try to escape the island, accused of homosexuality and beastiality, and driven to the absolute limit mentally.

They were then built back up into a tough warrior ready to kick some ass.

Complicating the Marine culture on multiple levels during a time of war when these Marines are dying weekly may not be the best idea.

[Edited 2010-12-04 03:10:18]


It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
User currently offlineQuokka From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (3 years 10 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2556 times:

Quoting ual777 (Reply 18):
Should the rule change? Yes, but not in a time of war that is at a critical juncture.


But it may always be at a critical juncture. There have been very few years since WWII when the USMC has not been called upon to serve in an action of some kind, whether it has been Korea, Vietnam, Iran, Lebanon, Panama, Grenada, Kuwait, Somalia, Liberia, Afghanistan and Iraq. With your experience you will no doubt be aware of other actions that I have omitted. But you get the picture.

It looks like Korea could be next, although Iran remains a possibility. The fact is that the Generals can not pencil in a date and say that would be a convenient time. In the words of the advertisers, there has never been a better time. If they are serious about accepting change, then they will introduce it sooner than later because who knows what "critical juncture" might prevent it tomorrow?


25 kiwiandrew : I find it quite sad that the Marine Corps who aren't supposed to be scared of anything can apparently be frightened to the point where they can no lon
26 Scorpio : Not if it's pure discrimination it's not. I'm not putting words in your mouth, you LITERALLY said that "probably over 98%" (i.e. all straight people)
27 Yellowstone : He gets to find other ways to dehumanize and degrade his recruits, or he gets fired. End of story. Are DI's allowed to call recruits "niggers" to try
28 ual777 : No its not. You obviously do not know how quickly that can kill a Marine's career. I do not think it is being scared. I think the leadership is worri
29 Post contains images Scorpio : Here's a hint: there are already gays in the Marines. In fact, there's a realistic chance that one of the recruits in that line with your buddy in it
30 Scorpio : As it should. So he simply shouldn't call 'em faggots anymore. Unless you're now going to claim that gay-bashing forms an integral part of what it ta
31 ltbewr : I have long believed that there are plenty of military rules and laws that should cover any potential problems if DADT is repealed. Many of those rule
32 Post contains images Aaron747 : Very simple: DIs will simply have to choose other words. Instead of that word, use "little worm in your mama's dry crusty c*nt" or whatever seems to
33 LTU932 : Dude, forget it. I read this thread and more and more I get the impression that ual777 thinks he's Gunnery Sergeant Hartmann or something, that he ha
34 Post contains images johnboy : See? I knew there were already gays in the Marines. The old gay joke is that you can always tell a Marine -- they're the ones that hold their own leg
35 adxmatt : [quote=johnboy,reply=34]See? I knew there were already gays in the Marines. Yes there are... I've even dated a few. I usually don't get involved in th
36 Mir : Replace "f" with "m". Problem solved. -Mir
37 Maverick623 : That doesn't mean you understand the "Marine" culture. I know of plenty of Marines that are drug addicts and alcoholics. Isn't that the stuff the Mar
38 tootallsd : So my Dad was a marine for 30 years 10 months and 15 days. The whole damm family was Marines as a result -- if you are a Marine brat you know what I m
39 Cargolex : In any other job, this would have you fired and out on the street by the end of the day if not the hour. I recognize that the military requires speci
40 Post contains images N1120A : And in the closet. Because its icky to ual777. And that is wrong. Probably. If people are showering together at all. Why should they have to shower i
41 DeltaMD90 : DIs (and Drill Sergeants of any branch) say stuff to everyone that are offensive. Don't get me wrong, I am against DADT and awaiting its repeal, but I
42 FRAspotter : Where the hell have you been looking? My brother signed up with the corps last spring and received a $40,000 bonus. 3 friends of mine from high schoo
43 Cargolex : If a White DI says "Ni**er" to a Black serviceman, what should the Black serviceman do? It is directly analogous.
44 Maverick623 : Absolutely, however: You miss the point of all the yelling and name calling. It's not a motivator; in fact, it's a demotivator. The point of the init
45 Post contains images CurtisMan : Interesting reading. I've also been listening to some of this US DADT stuff on XM Radio. As a Canadian, I live in a country of freedom and I always en
46 Post contains images Mudboy : I actually know a USMC DI from the Vietnam era, and he said Full Metal Jacket was spot on, as to what they used to do, but yes, it has toned down som
47 CargoLex : I guess I do miss the point. I don't understand the point of Muzak either. Yelling and Screaming is pretty much pointless, I think, for anybody who i
48 Post contains images Maverick623 : My grandfather was a DI at Parris Island sometime back in the 50s, so I'm right there with ya It's been toned down a lot. Despite what some say, the
49 NorthstarBoy : Bingo. For those who have never experienced it, being yelled at by someone is incredibly stressful, especially if they're throwing in all kinds of pe
50 CargoLex : A pretty bold statement from someone who's probably never even been to Israel. Answer the question, don't get into personal attacks. You don't know an
51 Scorpio : How is that different from today? Those gay recruits are already there, and always have been. Doesn't seem to have been a problem so far, so I see no
52 par13del : That line was there when Blacks were being hung, women could not vote, the military was segregated as was the country and a host of other injustices.
53 pelican : Wow, somebody has seen the hearing. It seem to me that the thread starter and many other people who posted here have not seen it. Even General Amos w
54 Mudboy : I think what you are failing to understand, is that the constant yelling, and being called names, and counting down, is to create a constant stressfu
55 Maverick623 : Don't yank my chain. Say you've been there and experienced it first (or even second) hand, or stop posting non-denial denials. I'm not saying if they
56 CargoLex : Don't yank my chain. Say you've been there and experienced it first (or even second) hand, or stop posting non-denial denials. I'm Jewish and know man
57 Post contains images PPVRA : Well who did you expect to fight it, the Navy? Eventually the USMC and Air force will have to Note to self: don't ever google "Navy" and "gay" in sea
58 Aaron747 : DADT repeal has officially been killed by a deranged John McCain and the Senate. Forward movement in civil rights by this country continues to march u
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